[Kryptid]

I only claim that gravity force is for free.

You claimed that energy can be created and, at the same time, claim that it doesn't violate conservation of energy. So yes, you are claiming that that a law that says "energy cannot be created" is somehow, magically, not violated when energy is created.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

You claimed that energy can be created and, at the same time, claim that it doesn't violate conservation of energy. So yes, you are claiming that that a law that says "energy cannot be created" is somehow, magically, not violated when energy is created.

Well, I claim that Gravity force is for free. Therefore, any energy that is created due to that force is for free without violating the conservation of energy.

[Bored chemist]

I only claim that gravity force is for free.

Yes, the force is free,
If I want to exert a  force on a table, I can put a book on it.
And in principle, the force will be there forever.

But we are not talking about conservation of force, but conservation of energy.
Because it is on the table, rather than the floor, the book has potential energy.

But it only has that energy because I lifted the book to the table top.
That energy wasn't free- I paid for it.

And that seems to be your latest mistake.
You think the energy is "free", just because the force is.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Yes, the force is free,
If I want to exert a  force on a table, I can put a book on it.
And in principle, the force will be there forever.

Thanks for the confirmation.
Gravity force is for free!!!

But we are not talking about conservation of force, but conservation of energy.
Because it is on the table, rather than the floor, the book has potential energy.

Do you agree that any force can set an energy?
If so, the energy that is created due to gravity force also must be for free.
In your example you are using a book on the table.
As long as it is on the table, it carries a potential energy.
I also agree that you have paid for this energy as follow:

But it only has that energy because I lifted the book to the table top.
That energy wasn't free- I paid for it.

I also agree that due to conservation of energy, that potential energy can be transformed to kinetic energy as the book falls to the ground.
So, in this case there is no extra energy for free as the potential energy had been converted to kinetic energy
However, due to the Unique creation process of the new created particle pair we actually get the potential energy for free.
Let's try to understand how it really works:
Virtual particles are orbiting around the BH at the speed of light, very close to the Photon sphere.
At the creation moment, the energy that is needed for their mass is given by the magnetic energy.
However, as the virtual particles were already orbiting at the speed of light and they were already "lifted" to that photon sphere zone; there is no need to pay extra energy for that.
So, do you agree that there is no need lift the virtual particles to that photon sphere zone and it already orbiting at the speed of light.
If so, we actually only pay (by energy) for the mass in the new particles, but we get their kinetic energy + Potential energy for free.
Therefore, during the creation process of new particle we actually get extra energy for free.
Do you agree with that? 

[Bored chemist]

Do you agree that any force can set an energy?

No

Obviously not, because, for a given force, the energy can be anything, including zero.

[Kryptid]

Therefore, any energy that is created...

But the conservation of energy says that energy cannot be created.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Do you agree that any force can set an energy?

No
Obviously not, because, for a given force, the energy can be anything, including zero.

There is a simple formula that links between force to energy:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/122229/what-is-the-relationship-between-force-and-kinetic-energy
E/F=(1/2mv2)/(ma)
E/F=vt/2

So, I know that you usually say "No".
That is perfectly ok with me.

But the conservation of energy says that energy cannot be created.

Conservation of energy is always correct.
It says that energy cannot be created and that is also correct.
However, in this case we have a force or actually a free force that is called "Gravity force".
That force has a clear relashemship to energy.
Therefore, as we have a free force, it can create free acceleration (a):
F=ma
That acceleration/velocity is a key element in the kinetic Energy:
Kinetic energy is: Ek = 1/2mv^2
Therefore, we can get a free energy from a free force.
However, we can only achieve it during the creation of new particle.
Please look again at the following explanation:

Virtual particles are orbiting around the BH at the speed of light, very close to the Photon sphere.
At the creation moment, the energy that is needed for their mass is given by the magnetic energy.
However, as the virtual particles were already orbiting at the speed of light and they were already "lifted" to that photon sphere zone; there is no need to pay extra energy for that.
So, do you agree that there is no need lift the virtual particles to that photon sphere zone and it already orbiting at the speed of light.
If so, we actually only pay (by energy) for the mass in the new particles, but we get their kinetic energy + Potential energy for free.

Let me know if you agree on the following:
1. There is no need for energy to set a virtual particle near the photon sphere. It is achievable due to the Ultra high gravity force of the BH/SMBH
Yes Or no?
2. There is no need for energy for a virtual particle to orbit at almost the speed of light near the photon sphere
Yes Or no?
3. There is a need for Energy to convert the virtual particle to real one - The requested energy is equivalent to the particle mass:
E=mc^2
Yes or no?
4. At that moment the virtual particle is converted to real particle which is located near the photon sphere (at radius R1) and has an orbital velocity at almost the speed of light (v=c). So, it gets a free potential energy (Ep= mgR1)
Yes or No?
5. That particle also gets a free kinetic energy EK = 1/2mc^2.
Yes or no?

[Bored chemist]

Any Force can be converted to energy.

Just... no.

[Bored chemist]

There is a simple formula that links between force to energy:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/122229/what-is-the-relationship-between-force-and-kinetic-energy
E/F=(1/2mv2)/(ma)
E/F=vt/2

So, I know that you usually say "No".
That is perfectly ok with me.

Thanks for confirming my statement
If  the velocity =0, for example, a book on a table, the energy is zero.

The reason I always say no is that you are always wrong.

[Kryptid]

Now you are contradicting yourself. In reply #493, you say that energy can be created:

Therefore, any energy that is created due to that force is for free without violating the conservation of energy.

But in reply #498, you say that energy cannot be created:

Conservation of energy is always correct.
It says that energy cannot be created and that is also correct.

You clearly didn't think this through.

[pzkpfw]

...
Our scientists are using this force/energy to boost their space ship for free.
So they are using the energy in the gravity force to accelerate their space ship in the direction of the moon, the Sun or any other direction.
All of that comes for free.
...
The gravity force that boosts the space ship adds a severe kinetic energy to that space ship.
...
So, do you agree that by using the Erath' gravity force, the space ship gets new kinetic energy for free.

You seem to be talking about Gravity Assist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_assist

Do you realise that gravity assist changes the motion of the source body? i.e. it isn't "free".

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Conservation of energy is always correct.
It says that energy cannot be created and that is also correct.

You clearly didn't think this through.

Let's make it clear:

Conservation of energy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
"In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant; it is said to be conserved over time."
That is correct!
However, we need to understand the real meaning of: "isolated system"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolated_system
In physical science, an isolated system is either of the following:
1. a physical system so far removed from other systems that it does not interact with them.
2. a thermodynamic system enclosed by rigid immovable walls through which neither mass nor energy can pass.
That is also correct as long as we ignore the impact of the "gravity force".
The gravity force adds key element to the isolated system: It adds matter.
So, if we look on a galaxy without the impact of gravity force or specifically without the impact of the created particles due to the gravity, we can claim that it represents isolated system.
However, gravity is for free and it works between any mater in the galaxy.
Let's try to understand the real impact of gravity force or specifically, the impact of the created particles due to the gravity,
Please look at the following diagram:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolated_system#/media/File:Diagram_Systems.png
Please focus on the left diagram
We see isolated system with exchange of matter/energy.
That clearly represents the impact of the gravity force in isolated system.
So, we can claim that a galaxy without gravity force clearly represents an isolated system.
However, once we add the key impact of created new matter/particles by gravity force than it is like an exchange particles/energy with isolated system.
The gravity force that helps to create new particles near the photon sphere of the SMBH contributes free Potential and free kinetic energy to that new particle.
Gravity force by itself can't create any particle. For this activity we need the help form the magnetic field. So, the energy for the mass in a new created particle must be taken from the isolated system itself. However, the added energy (potential/kinetic) to that new particle is given from outside the isolated system due to gravity force.
In other words - you can't set the activity of creation new matter due to gravity force in one isolated system.
That new creation process should be considered as a mixture between internally and externally process in isolated system as we can see in the above diagram.

[Kryptid]

That doesn't fix the problem that you simultaneously claim that energy can be created and also that it cannot be created. Either it can or it can't. It can't be both.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

That doesn't fix the problem that you simultaneously claim that energy can be created and also that it cannot be created. Either it can or it can't. It can't be both.

OK
The issue is very simple
Gravity force is only based on mass while it doesn't consume mass in order for it to exist.

Let's read again the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
"In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant.
So, the whole idea is that there are some sort of energy/force transformations between the difrent sources of energies/forces/activities in that isolated system.
Just a brief example:
Lorentz force push particles, but consumes some energy from the magnetic field.
The magnetic field is based on the rotation core of a star or BH.
Therefore, a consumption of energy from the magnetic field should reduce the rotation/spin of that core.
Hence, we clearly see that one kind of force/energy has a direct impact on other one. That is the basic idea of isolated system.
However, the gravity force doesn't consume any other kind of force/energy/mass from any other source.
It is there just because there is mass.
So, we can consider it as some kind of "NOBLE" force (or free force).
Therefore, it is above the isolated system, which gives it the ability to add new energy.

[Bored chemist]

Please look at the following diagram:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolated_system#/media/File:Diagram_Systems.png
Please focus on the left diagram
We see isolated system with exchange of matter/energy.

That is the opposite of what we actually see.
In the left hand diagram we see an isolated system where neither matter nor energy is allowed to enter or leave.
That's what isolated means in this context.

[Bored chemist]

The issue is very simple
Gravity force is only based on mass while it doesn't consume mass in order for it to exist.

So, it's very much the same as a magnetic, electrostatic or gas in a cylinder, or stretched spring force.

So, we can consider it as some kind of "NOBLE" force

And I thought our royal family was too big...

free force

Like essentially any other...

[Kryptid]

which gives it the ability to add new energy.

But the creation of new energy breaks conservation of energy, because it says that you can't create energy. I find it hard to believe that you can't comprehend that.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

But the creation of new energy breaks conservation of energy, because it says that you can't create energy.

Sorry, it clearly states that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
"In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant.
So, in isolated system there is no way to create new energy or new mass out of nothing.
As an example - if we try to extract energy from mass (fusion activity) we must lose mass.
So, the mass could be transformed to energy (By fusion activity) while energy could be transformed back to Mass  by some energy transformation as acceleration under magnetic field.
As long as we keep the balance in the total energy in that system, we can call it Isolated system.
Therefore, when we look at any kind of isolated system we know for sure that new energy/mass can't be created out of nothing.
That is the key element of the basic idea of "isolated system".
Hence, there is no way in isolated system/universe to generate new energy without losing energy in that system.
Therefore, that Conservation_of_energy law shows that there is no room for the BBT especially with the new discovery that the real universe is much bigger than our understanding about the size of the "observable Universe".
So, it is clear to all of us that before the Big Bang moment there was already matter in our universe.
Hence, in that pre-BBT isolated universe/system, no new energy could be added out of nothing.
That by itself Kills the BBT.
Therefore, how can you speak in the name of the Conservation_of_energy law, while this law kills the BBT before its starts?

With regards to Theory D: The issue is quite different.
If we look at our entire Universe, and with the exception of gravity force - than NO NEW ENERGY OR MASS could be created. That is very clear to all of us.
I can even add that the gravity by itself can't create/add any new matter.
Therefore, any new created particle MUST get its mass (or the energy it its mass) from the isolated system.
In other words - we  must use energy from the isolated system as magnetic field in order to create new mass.
The gravity force by itself can't help us in that case.
However, as I have already proved, the gravity force is above any sort of isolated system.
It doesn't consume energy from the mass itself or from any other source of energy in that isolated system.
Therefore, the gravity force is above the isolated system as there is no transformation of energy/force for its activity.
Even so, this gravity force can't add any energy to any mass in that isolated system/universe.
Never the less, it has a key impact on new created particles.
It sets their Kinetic/potential energy for free.
That's all.
So, the energy in the new created particle' mass must come from the isolated system while its Kinetic/potential energy is contributed for free by the gravity force.
As the gravity force doesn't consume energy from the current isolated system/universe that Kinetic/potential energy is for free.
Please be aware that if gravity force would have to consume energy from the isolated system (as magnetic field does) than we also had to add it as part of the isolated system.
In any case, we all know that it doesn't consume any sort of energy from the isolated system and therefore is it a NOBLE force.
Therefore, it has the ability to add extra energy to the new created particles.

[Bored chemist]

That is the key element of the basic idea of "isolated system".

The basic idea you failed to comprehend, as I pointed out  here.

Please look at the following diagram:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolated_system#/media/File:Diagram_Systems.png
Please focus on the left diagram
We see isolated system with exchange of matter/energy.

That is the opposite of what we actually see.
In the left hand diagram we see an isolated system where neither matter nor energy is allowed to enter or leave.
That's what isolated means in this context.

Hence, in that pre-BBT isolated universe/system, no new energy could be added out of nothing.
That by itself Kills the BBT.

No.
The hypothesis is that it was caused by an outside event.
The explanation is rather speculative but it exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology

Try learning what the BBT is before trying to show that it's wrong.

With regards to Theory D: The issue is quite different.
If we look at our entire Universe, and with the exception of gravity force - than NO NEW ENERGY OR MASS could be created. That is very clear to all of us.
I can even add that the gravity by itself can't create/add any new matter.
Therefore, any new created particle MUST get its mass (or the energy it its mass) from the isolated system.

But you already told us  that this critical last step is impossible.

when we look at any kind of isolated system we know for sure that new energy/mass can't be created out of nothing.

And yet you refuse to accept that your idea contradicts itself.

However, as I have already proved, the gravity force is above any sort of isolated system.

No it is not.
You made that claim without evidence , and in the face of the facts.

It doesn't consume energy from the mass itself or from any other source of energy in that isolated system.

So, it's very much the same as a magnetic, electrostatic or gas in a cylinder, or stretched spring force.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 17:31:08
The issue is very simple
Gravity force is only based on mass while it doesn't consume mass in order for it to exist.

So, it's very much the same as a magnetic, electrostatic or gas in a cylinder, or stretched spring force.

No. It is a fatal error to assume that the gravity force is very much the same as magnetic field or any other energy/force.
Magnetic field for example is used to transfer energy.
So, you take one source of energy and transfer it to other point of energy or force.
Hence, there is a consumption of energy from one side in order to transfer the energy to other side.
That is a key element in isolated system.

Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 17:31:08
free force

Like essentially any other...

None of the energies that you have offered could be considered as free force or Noble force.
As in all of them no new energy or force could be created without consuming energy from other source/party in that isolated system. So, they clearly can't be considered as free force or free energy.
For example, without a spinning core, we won't get any sort of magnetic field.
Hence, we need an energy/force to create an energy/force.
However, as you already know - Gravity force doesn't consume any energy or mass from other party in the system.
It is there just because there is a mass.
Therefore, if you like it or not, gravity force is a NOBLE force and it is above any sort of isolated system.

That is the opposite of what we actually see.
In the left hand diagram we see an isolated system where neither matter nor energy is allowed to enter or leave.
That's what isolated means in this context.

Yes, you are correct - as long as we ignore the gravity force.
So, in isolated system neither matter nor energy is allowed to enter or leave.
In other words - you can't create energy, force or mass without using/consuming other energy source in that isolated system.
That is correct to all kinds of mater/energies/forces... except ONE - Gravity force.
Again - Gravity force is based on the mass in that isolated system, but it doesn't consume any mass or energy from that system. Therefore, that gravity force is added as a free force (Noble force) to the isolated system.
That free gravity force adds the Kinetic energy + potential energy to the new created particles in the system without consuming it from any other source in the system.
It is there just because there is mass in that isolated system
Therefore, new Kinetic + Potential energies in the new created particles due to gravity force could be added to that same isolated system.