[Petrochemicals]

im having trouble working out what a corona doctor and some random bible passages have to do with the thread title.
should i start discussing the compression ratio of various diesel engines.? perhaps there a link to the trustworthiness of the bible there somehow?

I'd be playing the piano in a whore house in The Big Easy, drinking port and stumbling to the john.

Is that a metaphore ?

[duffyd]

im having trouble working out what a corona doctor and some random bible passages have to do with the thread title.
should i start discussing the compression ratio of various diesel engines.? perhaps there a link to the trustworthiness of the bible there somehow?

I'd be playing the piano in a whore house in The Big Easy, drinking port and stumbling to the john.

Is that a metaphore ?

It's the best case scenario if I was still alive. Most likely I'd be dead without Him.

We know science can't provide a smidgen of evidence that God exists. Yet, if not for him, I'd be a goner, guaranteed. And, to be honest, I know about 408 billion people just like me who all say the same thing. That is all irrelevant, however. The counter point goes something like, "Tons of people believe all kinds of silliness and get their act together." I just don't know any of them. I have never heard people thanking Buddha or Vishnu or the maharishi or uncle Harry for helping them personally receive a new heart, a new spirit, a new outlook on life as a free gift.
But, science, repeated outcomes from the same drug in clinical trials type stuff, is all bogus when it comes to God.

[duffyd]

I always liked the movie Heidi. That crusty old goat, "grandfather, grandfather", who hated everybody is transformed by the love of an innocent little kid. That's how Christ transforms us. Out of the blue, He comes along and loves us unconditionally and eventually, depending on how crusty and hateful you are, he turns you into a babbling, blithering grateful nut who can't stop thanking him for the new man he just made. 

[Jolly2]

im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.

so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.

IdK. So the problem here is that you are comparing completely different things. Science is not religion nor religion science.

They are different tools you could say, seeking different answers to different questions both Science and religion are interested in truth yet the scientific truth and religious truth are completely different concepts and ideas, that you cant compare equals.

The bible as an example has 2 pages effectively that discuss the creation of the world. 2 pages in a collection of many books. This is primarily because the bible isnt really concerned with how the world was made or what is the world made of as science is. Hence comparing them as you are is highly simplistic.

The bible simply states "God made it" and moves on briskly to its actual concern of topics like how we should live? how should we treat others? What is the nature of evil or sin? The bible isn't in anyway really concerned with atoms, chemistry, biology and the other subjects of science.

The bible is concerned with human interaction, peace, justice, life.

While science can say how things are it will never tell you how to live save some dietary suggestions.

there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence

Again meaningless in this regard.

against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it.

Not at all, I highly recommend you listen to some of the lectures on the psychological significance of the biblical stories given by Jorden Peterson.

.for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought.

Again this a highly simplistic view of religion and faith.

and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)

And never will it because as I suggested before that is not what the bible is interested in.

so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book

Because it is more then a story book. Simplically it's also a poetry book, a history book, a book of wise quotes, a book of predictions and prophecies, a book of songs, a book of myths and legends, and much more.

Sadly the position  you hold is one many people do, a very condescending one that is also based more in ignorance then understanding.

Oscar Wilde said "it's a hard thing to understand but the most important things in life to learn cant be taught"

The bible, the "Torah" is a teaching it's what Torah means, who you are at the end of that teaching if it's even possible to "end" not even you can say. But you need a mind ready to even begin that journey.

I'll make a final point and refernce from something Jordan Pererson spoke of.
The Noah story is the story where mankind becomes corrupt so God sends a flood. And there is a link drawn in this story to corruption and floods.
When new Orleans was flooded a few years back it happened because corrupt politicians for decades had stopped spending money on Levy defenses.

Hence a lesson the bible had to teach, that corruption leads to disasters was certainly not learnt or understood by the politicians involved.

Food for thought...

And the answer to your question is the other way round, why wouldn't they...

[duffyd]

Public defender Jeanne Bishop believes that criminals can be redeemed, rehabilitated and forgiven — even her sister’s murderer. At first, the notion of reconciliation sickened her — and made her furious. Wasn’t it enough — the forgiveness...of David Biro who for no reason murdered her pregnant sister and her husband execution style in the basement of their Winnetka, Il home.

“Here’s the message: People change. I changed. Look at me. My heart changed. On something I never thought it would. So why not him? That’s where my faith comes in. Looking at him, I asked, ‘Can God do the impossible, really? What if he’s a sociopath? I heard they can never get better. Can God change the heart of this person?’ ”
She pauses, as if to suggest that yes, of course, hearts can be changed."
Finish reading this story. Go ahead and slam Christ to your heart's content. Never mention his kindness. Ignore His forgiving nature, his requirements for those who follow him to forgive. He was Virtue Incarnate. He doesn't exist? Learn what He does in the lives of the killer and the sister of the woman he shot dead without cause.
 
https://www.northwestern.edu/magazine/summer2015/feature/forgiven-public-defender-jeanne-bishop.html

[duffyd]

I love it when a nugget of gold pops into my awareness when least expected. From Ingrid Bergman in Anastasia,  “The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”

[alancalverd]

Here’s the message: People change.

So we should base our judgements on what we hope somebody might become, rather than what he actually did? It would certainly simplify the whole process of criminal justice - why bother with arrest, trial and punishment?

“The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”

but not enough to prevent them starving, by definition. So how is that an advantage? Advantage over what?

[jfoldbar (OP)]

yet the scientific truth and religious truth

religion has truth?

2 pages effectively that discuss the creation of the world

2 pages that are are not entirely accurate

how we should live? how should we treat others? What is the nature of evil or sin?

well, i guess so. but if we based our moral choices on what is written in the bible well we would be acting as though they did in the spanish inquisition. id rather live my life actually by moral code rather than the moral(immoral) code of the bible

The bible is concerned with human interaction, peace, justice, life.

While science can say how things are it will never tell you how to live save some dietary suggestions.

as above

Again meaningless in this regard

well, i guess if one just uses the bible as a kind of moral storybook like the boy that cried wolf or 3 little pigs, then yes this is meaningless.
but so many people try to claim that the bible is so much more. some even make the claim that its accurate in some kind of real life sense.

Not at all, I highly recommend you listen to some of the lectures on the psychological significance of the biblical stories given by Jorden Peterson

pretty much as above

Again this a highly simplistic view of religion and faith.

care to enlighten on a more realistic view then?

And never will it because as I suggested before that is not what the bible is interested in.

true there are many parts that are stories of past events. there are historical things throughout it. and from all these stories we are supposed to derive some meaning to our lives.
but what about when the stories are just plain wrong. what meaning do we derive from that? the story, or the wrongness?

Sadly the position  you hold is one many people do, a very condescending one that is also based more in ignorance then understanding.

please elaborate

The Noah story is the story where mankind becomes corrupt so God sends a flood. And there is a link drawn in this story to corruption and floods.
When new Orleans was flooded a few years back it happened because corrupt politicians for decades had stopped spending money on Levy defenses.

from a viewpoint of a moral wise story for humans to learn from (just like the boy that cried wolf) i agree with this.
but many people believe this actually happened.

why wouldn't they

just like above, if one uses its stories in the same way they use little red riding hood then i see merit it that.
but to use it as a whole as some kind of 'encyclopedia' for all of lifes challenges is misleading and serves no purpose.

[duffyd]

Here’s the message: People change.

So we should base our judgements on what we hope somebody might become, rather than what he actually did? It would certainly simplify the whole process of criminal justice - why bother with arrest, trial and punishment? No.

“The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”

but not enough to prevent them starving, by definition. So how is that an advantage? Advantage over what?

We could eliminate hunger if we wanted to. Dylan wrote, "you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it."

[duffyd]

Here’s the message: People change.

So we should base our judgements on what we hope somebody might become, rather than what he actually did? It would certainly simplify the whole process of criminal justice - why bother with arrest, trial and punishment? No.

“The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”

but not enough to prevent them starving, by definition. So how is that an advantage? Advantage over what?

We could eliminate hunger if we wanted to. Dylan wrote, "you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it."

If you haven't seen it, Anastasia with Ingrid Bergman, Helen Hayes and Yul Brynner will explain the why. An amnesiac who may be a member of the Romanov Dynasty realizes that love is the key to life not riches, position, status, etc.

[duffyd]

Here’s the message: People change.

So we should base our judgements on what we hope somebody might become, rather than what he actually did? It would certainly simplify the whole process of criminal justice - why bother with arrest, trial and punishment? No.

“The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”

but not enough to prevent them starving, by definition. So how is that an advantage? Advantage over what?

We could eliminate hunger if we wanted to. Dylan wrote, "you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it."

If you haven't seen it, Anastasia with Ingrid Bergman, Helen Hayes and Yul Brynner will explain the why. An amnesiac who may be a member of the Romanov Dynasty realizes that love is the key to life not riches, position, status, etc.

Speaking of "The Romanovs, The Real History of the Russian Dynasty" is excellent.

[Bored chemist]

I hate bullies. I have hated them my whole life, even as a little kid, and go out of my way to support anyone who is mistreated.

So, what's your take on someone who will condemn you to eternal torment if you don't worship Him?
Is it possible to be more of a bully than that?

[duffyd]

I hate bullies. I have hated them my whole life, even as a little kid, and go out of my way to support anyone who is mistreated.

So, what's your take on someone who will condemn you to eternal torment if you don't worship Him?
Is it possible to be more of a bully than that?

What do you think? Apparently you ask those questions based on your understanding of what scripture says. (Excellent questions, BTW) No?
If so, how do you reconcile a god like that with what the scripture says about Jesus sacrificing his life out of his love for us?

[Bored chemist]

If so, how do you reconcile a god like that with what the scripture says about Jesus sacrificing his life out of his love for us?

Easy.
It's a made up story.
We even know who did the latest major bit of editing- (to try to remove some of the inconsistencies).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Given that we know which bunch of blokes made it up, why do you think it's anything but made up?

[duffyd]

If so, how do you reconcile a god like that with what the scripture says about Jesus sacrificing his life out of his love for us?

Easy.
It's a made up story.
We even know who did the latest major bit of editing- (to try to remove some of the inconsistencies).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Given that we know which bunch of blokes made it up, why do you think it's anything but made up?

Then why refer to it? And, why mention hell and not Christ's painful bloody sacrifice? That's what I don't get.

[Bored chemist]

not Christ's painful bloody sacrifice?

I'm fairly sure I did mention that he said God had abandoned  him.

Look at the context in which I referred to it.

why do you think it's anything but made up?

[jeffreyH]

The followers of the desert mythology book are the poster children of the sociopathic religious establishment.

[duffyd]

The questions concerning God forcing us to worship him are good ones. I've often said to others, how can God command anyone to love him? You, no one, including God, can force someone to love them. Can't be done, yet it is the foundation of our relationship with him. It is the numero uno commandment. The greatest of all. "Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?” Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.…
Berean Study Bible
How does that make any sense?
God is complex. Einstein said above all he wanted to know God's thoughts. Me too.
I love him not because He tells me to and He does tell me to, no question. But, why should I? Who is he to tell me to love him? How can I conjure up any love for him? Who is he, period? How am I suppose to know who he is?
There is the God as revealed in the bible with the use of words and I can read about him and even study his thoughts as they are found on paper.
How entirely different is my comprehension of, is my "knowing" that individual once I've met him, spent time with him, experienced being in his presence? Completely different Person. I have no choice but to love him because of his infinite love for me. I can't help but worship him. I want to worship the guy because he's unbelievably good, and kind, and cool.
This is what is so difficult to explain. HE is alive. He is present. He is real. He is close. He has a personality. We can know him, we can experience him like we can anyone, even better, in fact. He is the God who is our Dad, our friend, our savior, our companion. He never leaves us. We become literally his own children.

[jeffreyH]

Why can't god force someone to love it? Is it unaware of psychology, manipulation or hypnotism? Didn't it create those things? You seem to be able to attach anything to this god. It's almost as if it is a convenient mouthpiece for your own opinions. No matter how horrendous they are. Am I correct? Go on be honest for once.

[duffyd]

If so, how do you reconcile a god like that with what the scripture says about Jesus sacrificing his life out of his love for us?

Easy.
It's a made up story.
We even know who did the latest major bit of editing- (to try to remove some of the inconsistencies).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Given that we know which bunch of blokes made it up, why do you think it's anything but made up?

Hey, nice talking with you. We can agree to disagree. There isn't much more to say. You are grounded in your beliefs and I am too. So, we disagree. We can discuss lots of other things.