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  4. Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
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Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #80 on: 31/03/2022 04:30:46 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 30/03/2022 17:24:48
If the separation s exceeds twice the diameter d, we are in "far field" where the rate of exchange  by radiation tends towards a 1/s2 law.

If 0 < s < d we approach a "near field" radiative exchange that is almost independent of s.

If s = 0 the exchange is conductive   

It's all pretty standard stuff in radiation physics and thermal engineering.
It looks like rough estimation to me.
What's the tolerance for s = 0? Even when two objects are in contact, there will still be some gap between them in microscopic level.

How much is the discontinuity around the transition between radiative and conductive heat transfer?

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_contact_conductance

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #81 on: 31/03/2022 08:39:02 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/03/2022 13:49:04
Is there any experimental evidence for that?
Put your finger near- and then on- a block of ice.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #82 on: 31/03/2022 10:04:40 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2022 04:30:46
What's the tolerance for s = 0?
For the present context, it's the point at which their molecules can exchange vibrational kinetic energy without an intermediate photon. Hence the change from T4 to T law.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #83 on: 31/03/2022 10:40:19 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 31/03/2022 10:04:40
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2022 04:30:46
What's the tolerance for s = 0?
For the present context, it's the point at which their molecules can exchange vibrational kinetic energy without an intermediate photon. Hence the change from T4 to T law.
Even in a crystal lattice, exchange of kinetic energy between one atom to the other occurs as electromagnetic interaction. Nuclear interaction is rare in a standard ambient environment.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #84 on: 31/03/2022 10:48:21 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2022 10:40:19
Quote from: alancalverd on 31/03/2022 10:04:40
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2022 04:30:46
What's the tolerance for s = 0?
For the present context, it's the point at which their molecules can exchange vibrational kinetic energy without an intermediate photon. Hence the change from T4 to T law.
Even in a crystal lattice, exchange of kinetic energy between one atom to the other occurs as electromagnetic interaction. Nuclear interaction is rare in a standard ambient environment.
Are you talking about the exchange of VIRTUAL photons as the mechanism for electromagnetic forces?
That's not going to help here.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #85 on: 31/03/2022 12:41:18 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2022 10:40:19
Even in a crystal lattice, exchange of kinetic energy between one atom to the other occurs as electromagnetic interaction.
No, electrostatic.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #86 on: 01/04/2022 10:34:20 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 31/03/2022 12:41:18
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2022 10:40:19
Even in a crystal lattice, exchange of kinetic energy between one atom to the other occurs as electromagnetic interaction.
No, electrostatic.
Those electrons are moving, at least in microscopic scale, hence not static.
AFAIK, even a single electron has magnetic properties. What prevents them to interact electromagnetically?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #87 on: 01/04/2022 10:39:39 »
Pairing, very weak magnetic field, and the fact that electrostatic and magnetostatic interactions, even if combined, are not electromagnetic. You might model the interaction with a virtual photon of bizarre origin but you get the right answer with a ball-and-spring model, so why make it complicated? 
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #88 on: 01/04/2022 10:41:36 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/03/2022 08:39:02
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/03/2022 13:49:04
Is there any experimental evidence for that?
Put your finger near- and then on- a block of ice.
When the finger barely touches the ice, the contact area is infinitesimally close to 0. But if we push forward, the contact area will become larger.

T2A gets closer to T2B when the gap between A and B is shrinking. How would the discontinuity of energy transfer appear in the graph?
« Last Edit: 02/04/2022 08:33:28 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #89 on: 01/04/2022 10:43:09 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/04/2022 10:39:39
so why make it complicated
To make it more accurate for wider range of circumstances.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #90 on: 01/04/2022 11:23:53 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2022 04:30:46
Quote from: alancalverd on 30/03/2022 17:24:48
If the separation s exceeds twice the diameter d, we are in "far field" where the rate of exchange  by radiation tends towards a 1/s2 law.

If 0 < s < d we approach a "near field" radiative exchange that is almost independent of s.

If s = 0 the exchange is conductive   

It's all pretty standard stuff in radiation physics and thermal engineering.
It looks like rough estimation to me.
What's the tolerance for s = 0? Even when two objects are in contact, there will still be some gap between them in microscopic level.

How much is the discontinuity around the transition between radiative and conductive heat transfer?

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_contact_conductance

As far as I can tell, that picture is wrong.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #91 on: 01/04/2022 11:49:48 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/04/2022 10:43:09
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/04/2022 10:39:39
so why make it complicated
To make it more accurate for wider range of circumstances.
Adding nonsense doesn't improve accuracy. This is physics, not politics, philosophy or religion.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #92 on: 02/04/2022 08:27:22 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/04/2022 11:23:53
As far as I can tell, that picture is wrong.
How can we make it right? Which parts should we change, remove, or add?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #93 on: 02/04/2022 08:31:43 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/04/2022 11:49:48
Adding nonsense doesn't improve accuracy. This is physics, not politics, philosophy or religion.
What's the nonsense that I should remove without impairing accuracy?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #94 on: 02/04/2022 12:02:26 »
The notion of electromagnetic interactions determining heat transfer by conduction.
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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #95 on: 03/04/2022 04:19:55 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/04/2022 12:02:26
The notion of electromagnetic interactions determining heat transfer by conduction.
What are the fundamental interactions/forces involved in heat transfer by conduction?
If it's not an electromagnetic interaction, you can choose the others: weak force, strong force, gravitation.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #96 on: 03/04/2022 04:22:12 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/04/2022 08:27:22
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/04/2022 11:23:53
As far as I can tell, that picture is wrong.
How can we make it right? Which parts should we change, remove, or add?
Here's the picture, just in case you have trouble finding it.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #97 on: 03/04/2022 10:34:58 »
The problem is the definition.
Things are in contact or they are not.
The picture shows what you get if there's a gap between the two objects.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #98 on: 03/04/2022 10:36:33 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/04/2022 04:19:55
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/04/2022 12:02:26
The notion of electromagnetic interactions determining heat transfer by conduction.
What are the fundamental interactions/forces involved in heat transfer by conduction?
If it's not an electromagnetic interaction, you can choose the others: weak force, strong force, gravitation.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/03/2022 10:48:21
Are you talking about the exchange of VIRTUAL photons as the mechanism for electromagnetic forces?
That's not going to help here.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #99 on: 03/04/2022 12:18:10 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 03/04/2022 10:36:33
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/04/2022 04:19:55
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/04/2022 12:02:26
The notion of electromagnetic interactions determining heat transfer by conduction.
What are the fundamental interactions/forces involved in heat transfer by conduction?
If it's not an electromagnetic interaction, you can choose the others: weak force, strong force, gravitation.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/03/2022 10:48:21
Are you talking about the exchange of VIRTUAL photons as the mechanism for electromagnetic forces?
That's not going to help here.

What would help?
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