[Origin]

You quoted my response to Origin.
Perhaps you can learn how to write better.

Why did you even ask the question?  I said there is no net heat transfer!
The way you go on and on over the same ground is so annoying, that is why I put several of your threads on ignore.  It is a ridiculous waste of time.

[Bored chemist]

 
Thermodynamics has been working for about 200 years.

Astronomy has been working for centuries before Copernicus questioned it.

No, it hadn't. the predictions were wrong.
Not very wrong, but still wrong.

[Bored chemist]

I did pick an answer.

The problem is that you can not , or will not understand what I wrote.

You quoted my response to Origin.
Perhaps you can learn how to write better.

Did you consider that the problem was your failure to read?

[Bored chemist]

In another thread, a scientific disagreement was finally resolved by making a bet.

In the UK it is illegal to bet on events where the outcome is already known.
We have repeatedly pointed out that the outcome of your experiment is already known.

That's a pity in a way; it might be fun to take your money.

[Bored chemist]

Implicit answer may be used as an excuse to evade responsibility for giving a false but definitive answer.

Or it might be used to try to shoehorn some information into you.
But since you seem to be too dim to recognise reality anyway, I will make it simple.
Yes. your first option is still the only one that can actually happen.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

You quoted my response to Origin.
Perhaps you can learn how to write better.

Why did you even ask the question?  I said there is no net heat transfer!
The way you go on and on over the same ground is so annoying, that is why I put several of your threads on ignore.  It is a ridiculous waste of time.

Because you didn't pick an answer explicitly. You just repeated a statement from a scientific theory, which may or may not accurately represent real life experiment. You can learn something from Alan's answer.

Do you think that a real life experiment can settle our disagreement?

No. It will most likely demonstrate all sorts of anomalous behavior peculiar to water, and a whole lot of problems with your method. Sir Lawrence Bragg was a bit of an amateur, having only two Nobel Prizes to his name, but he used to say in his Royal Institution annual  lecture demonstrations that if you get 20% repeatability in a heat experiment you are doing very well. Having mucked about with ice calorimetry at the UK National Physical Laboratory (long after Bragg retired as  Director) I can only concur.

Why not just accept the obvious definitions of elementary thermodynamics that everyone else uses?

But not the last suggestion.

[Bored chemist]

You quoted my response to Origin.
Perhaps you can learn how to write better.

Why did you even ask the question?  I said there is no net heat transfer!
The way you go on and on over the same ground is so annoying, that is why I put several of your threads on ignore.  It is a ridiculous waste of time.

Because you didn't pick an answer explicitly. You just repeated a statement from a scientific theory, which may or may not accurately represent real life experiment. You can learn something from Alan's answer.

Do you think that a real life experiment can settle our disagreement?

No. It will most likely demonstrate all sorts of anomalous behavior peculiar to water, and a whole lot of problems with your method. Sir Lawrence Bragg was a bit of an amateur, having only two Nobel Prizes to his name, but he used to say in his Royal Institution annual  lecture demonstrations that if you get 20% repeatability in a heat experiment you are doing very well. Having mucked about with ice calorimetry at the UK National Physical Laboratory (long after Bragg retired as  Director) I can only concur.

Why not just accept the obvious definitions of elementary thermodynamics that everyone else uses?

But not the last suggestion.

You would learn a lot if you followed his last suggestion.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Implicit answer may be used as an excuse to evade responsibility for giving a false but definitive answer.

Or it might be used to try to shoehorn some information into you.
But since you seem to be too dim to recognise reality anyway, I will make it simple.
Yes. your first option is still the only one that can actually happen.

Let me share an advice from a successful person. If you think that you are the smartest person in a room, it's most likely that you are in a wrong room.
Your attitude towards someone that you think is less intelligent than you needs to be improved. If you think that they made a mistake, just tell them what the mistake is, and suggest how to make it right.  Telling that they are inferior than you is unnecessary. It can make them think that scientists are generally arrogant, which drives them away from learning proper science.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

You would learn a lot if you followed his last suggestion.

I think I can learn a lot more if I know how thermodynamics was conceptualized from experimental results, and how currently accepted theory has beaten its competitors and alternatives.

[Origin]

Your attitude towards someone that you think is less intelligent than you needs to be improved. If you think that they made a mistake, just tell them what the mistake is, and suggest how to make it right.  Telling that they are inferior than you is unnecessary.

The negative comments are probably due to your posting style.  You ask a question and people take the time to answer you and then you ignore the answer.  That is going to lead to people ignoring you or getting frustrated with you.  I suggest you change your attitude or expect negative comments.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Here's my idea to minimize noise over signal:
- Prepare 50/50 ice-water mixture at around 0°C in a large plastic bowl. Let it in refrigerator for an hour to reach equilibrium.
- Fill a metal cup with 90% water and 10% ice from the mixture.
- Fill another metal cup with 10% water and 90% ice from the mixture.
- Put both metal cups into the bowl containing the remaining of the mixture.
- Let them in refrigerator for an hour to reach equilibrium.
- See the result, if the ratio of ice-water in the cups change.

OK. I've finished my first round of experiment as described above. But I can't get the metal cups, so I just used ordinary drinking glasses. I guess the heat conductance is enough for this experiment since they are quite thin.
The temperature of the refrigerator is 4C, as shown by a thermometer left there for an hour. The result is the ice in both glasses decreased from initial ratio.
So I moved the system to the freezer, which is kept at -4C, as measured by a thermometer left there for an hour. The result is the ice in both glasses increased from initial ratio.
These results show that energy transfer between the system and the environment overwhelmed the energy transfered through the glasses. It means that the noise over signal ratio is too high to get reliable conclusion. Hence the experimental setups need to be improved.
I also learned that gravity and buoyancy play significant role in determining the results, which need to be addressed in upcoming experiments.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The negative comments are probably due to your posting style.  You ask a question and people take the time to answer you and then you ignore the answer.  That is going to lead to people ignoring you or getting frustrated with you.  I suggest you change your attitude or expect negative comments.

I didn't ask what thermodynamics theory says. I can google it and quickly get an answer.
I asked what would happen if I do an experiment as described previously. What currently existing theories predict, and what factors can significantly affect the results.

[Origin]

I didn't ask what thermodynamics theory says. I can google it and quickly get an answer.
I asked what would happen if I do an experiment as described previously. What currently existing theories predict, and what factors can significantly affect the results.

Which you were told and you ignored.

[Origin]

I also learned that gravity and buoyancy play significant role in determining the results, which need to be addressed in upcoming experiments.

What you should have learned is that heat transfer is driven by the delta T.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I didn't ask what thermodynamics theory says. I can google it and quickly get an answer.
I asked what would happen if I do an experiment as described previously. What currently existing theories predict, and what factors can significantly affect the results.

Which you were told and you ignored.

Did you make correct prediction?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I also learned that gravity and buoyancy play significant role in determining the results, which need to be addressed in upcoming experiments.

What you should have learned is that heat transfer is driven by the delta T.

I already knew that. What I want to know is, what else drives heat transfer?

[Origin]

Did you make correct prediction?

Yes, I predicted your experiment would fail because there is going to be a delta T between the environment and your ice bath since you do not have the equipment to accurately hold the temp at exactly 0C.

I already knew that. What I want to know is, what else drives heat transfer?

If there is no delta T, then nothing else matters since there will be no heat transfer.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

In another thread, a scientific disagreement was finally resolved by making a bet.

In the UK it is illegal to bet on events where the outcome is already known.
We have repeatedly pointed out that the outcome of your experiment is already known.

That's a pity in a way; it might be fun to take your money.

I didn't propose to involve money.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Did you make correct prediction?

Yes, I predicted your experiment would fail because there is going to be a delta T between the environment and your ice bath since you do not have the equipment to accurately hold the temp at exactly 0C.

I already knew that. What I want to know is, what else drives heat transfer?

If there is no delta T, then nothing else matters since there will be no heat transfer.

Your picked answer is different than what the actual results are.
Do you have an idea how to get the first possible result, i.e. both cups retain their ice/water ratio?

[Origin]

Your picked answer is different than what the actual results are.
Do you have an idea how to get the first possible result, i.e. both cups retain their ice/water ratio?

Of course!  Why are you asking, haven't you read your own thread?