[Origin]

May be it's not relevant to the title or theoretical consideration. But it's relevant if we want to get experimental evidence.

A poorly designed and executed experiment gives meaningless results.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

You will not get experimental evidence of what happens at 0C (as per the thread title) unless your equipment is at 0C.

It shows that the experimental evidence is not that easy to get, contrary to your previous claim.

Not really. Get some ice, a little below freezing , put it in a closed container and put that in a slurry of crushed ice and water.
It will warm up to exactly 0C
Get some water, just above freezing, Seal it in a container and put it in a slurry of ice and water, it will cool down to exactly 0C.

What's hard is getting the left compartment filled with pure ice while the right compartment contains pure water. We will need to maintain air temperature at 0°C, so is the tools we use to transport the water and ice. The lighting  should also be taken into account, as well as body temperature of the experimenter.

It is easy.
You do everything in a tank of ice cold water.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

May be it's not relevant to the title or theoretical consideration. But it's relevant if we want to get experimental evidence.

A poorly designed and executed experiment gives meaningless results.

It's inconclusive, but not meaningless. It tells us that something must be improved.
You never fail until you stop trying.

[alancalverd]

Sadly, many people have attempted to disprove the laws of thermodynamics, with increasingly sophisticated apparatus. The goal is unlimited wealth and omnipotence - you could make a whole new universe! But AFAIK nobody has succeeded.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Sadly, many people have attempted to disprove the laws of thermodynamics, with increasingly sophisticated apparatus. The goal is unlimited wealth and omnipotence - you could make a whole new universe! But AFAIK nobody has succeeded.

I don't think that my experiment would disprove the laws of thermodynamics. It only shows that average temperature of an object (ice-water mixture) can be different than local temperature at specific location in the object. In this case, it was caused mostly by buoyancy of ice in water.

[Bored chemist]

Sadly, many people have attempted to disprove the laws of thermodynamics, with increasingly sophisticated apparatus. The goal is unlimited wealth and omnipotence - you could make a whole new universe! But AFAIK nobody has succeeded.

I don't think that my experiment would disprove the laws of thermodynamics. It only shows that average temperature of an object (ice-water mixture) can be different than local temperature at specific location in the object. In this case, it was caused mostly by buoyancy of ice in water.

true, but your proposed system is not at equilibrium.

[Bored chemist]

May be it's not relevant to the title or theoretical consideration. But it's relevant if we want to get experimental evidence.

A poorly designed and executed experiment gives meaningless results.

It's inconclusive, but not meaningless. It tells us that something must be improved.
You never fail until you stop trying.

If you keep trying something which has been proven to be impossible, then you are failing.

[alancalverd]

It only shows that average temperature of an object (ice-water mixture) can be different than local temperature at specific location

An average being different from a sample? My god, he's invented statistics! There's a Nobel physics prize awaiting if you can demonstrate it, and  Fields Medal if you can present a mathematical proof. Or maybe not.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If you keep trying something which has been proven to be impossible, then you are failing.

Do you mean mathematical proof? What is it?

[Bored chemist]

Do you mean mathematical proof? What is it?

Yes.
I mean the same mathematical proof that I already pointed out and which you ignored because you rfefuse to do science.

The other reason, is that the conservation laws are mathematically proven to be true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether%27s_theorem

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Do you mean mathematical proof? What is it?

Yes.
I mean the same mathematical proof that I already pointed out and which you ignored because you rfefuse to do science.

The other reason, is that the conservation laws are mathematically proven to be true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether%27s_theorem

What's the impossible thing do you think I tried to prove using my experimental setup described previously?

[Bored chemist]

You seem to think that the laws of energy conservation don't work.

They do.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

You seem to think that the laws of energy conservation don't work.

They do.

What makes you think that way?
Here are my main points in this thread :
1. Heat flows from higher temperature object to lower temperature object.
2. Ice and water at melting point has the same average temperature, 0C.
3. At melting point, water has higher internal energy compared to ice.
4. Local temperature can be different from average temperature.

Is there any point you don't agree with?

[Bored chemist]

Here's an idea. The container has a thermally conductive separator which split the container into two chambers. Put the ice into the left chamber, and water into the right chamber. Will there be any thermal energy transfer through the separator?

Saying stuff like that suggests that you don't understand the laws of thermodynamics.

[alancalverd]

Heat (i.e.thermal energy) can only flow from a higher to a lower temperature. Therefore there will be no net exchange through the barrier if the water and ice are at the same temperature.

If you can make water flow uphill, or indeed put the sh1t back in the donkey by any means, you are doing better than God.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Here's an idea. The container has a thermally conductive separator which split the container into two chambers. Put the ice into the left chamber, and water into the right chamber. Will there be any thermal energy transfer through the separator?

Saying stuff like that suggests that you don't understand the laws of thermodynamics.

Or classical thermodynamics doesn't apply in some circumstances, just like Maxwell's electromagnetic theory. Which one is true can be resolved by experiments.
You can have an internally consistent mathematical model, but doesn't represent physical reality.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Heat (i.e.thermal energy) can only flow from a higher to a lower temperature.

That's true by definition. When energy flows from a lower temperature object to higher temperature object, we can simply call it something other than heat flow or just unnatural. Laser cutter heating a metal target or induction stove heating a steel pan are some examples.

[alancalverd]

from: alancalverd on Yesterday at 20:31:28
Heat (i.e.thermal energy) can only flow from a higher to a lower temperature.

That's true by definition.

So you agree that if ice and water are in contact at 0°C, no net heat will flow between them?

[Bored chemist]

You can have an internally consistent mathematical model, but doesn't represent physical reality.

You could.
But nobody uses them to model reality, so they aren't relevant.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

So you agree that if ice and water are in contact at 0°C, no net heat will flow between them?

Yes, at that specific point.
But a water body with 0°C average temperature has various local temperature. So does the ice. Moreover,
0°C ice can receive heat energy without changing its temperature, by melting.
0°C water can give away heat energy without changing its temperature, by freezing.

When I alternated the ambient temperature between -4°C and 4°C (by moving between refrigerator and freezer), the ice/water ratio of both containers tend to get closer to each other.
I used normal tap water to avoid complication with supercooling things. The freezing always starts from the water surface in the container. Warmer water (up to 4°C) tends to go to the bottom, due to its density.
Hence when temperature difference and phase separation due to buoyancy are not eliminated, both containers tend to end up with more similar ice/water ratio than when they were started.
The question is how can we eliminate them? How far can we eliminate them? Are there other factors that can generate local temperature difference?