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  4. Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
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Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #400 on: 04/09/2022 04:00:07 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/09/2022 18:14:28
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/09/2022 15:28:59
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/09/2022 13:23:53
To repeat the obvious answer to the original question: No, by definition.
How does it help to predict experimental results?
It predicts them absolutely, fully, and completely.
But only if you do a very good experiment, and that's very difficult with water. 
Geocentric model predicts planet positions accurately, as long as you add enough appropriate epicycles to it. Someone might insist that planets move around the earth by definition.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #401 on: 04/09/2022 04:04:10 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/09/2022 16:03:26
Once you have "slightly warmer water" you are no longer at 0oC
The system's average temperature can be still at 0C if another part has slightly lower temperature.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #402 on: 04/09/2022 09:26:31 »
Under our new system of taxation, if I have more money than you, I must give you some.

I have $1,000,000, you have $0.

You say I have more money than you, so I owe you  $500,000

I say our average balance if $500,000 so I don't have to give you anything.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #403 on: 04/09/2022 09:42:56 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/09/2022 04:00:07
Geocentric model predicts planet positions accurately, as long as you add enough appropriate epicycles to it. Someone might insist that planets move around the earth by definition.
If they are doing that since Foucault did a better experiment then they are not scientists.
More importantly, they would need to explain why there are epicycles.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #404 on: 04/09/2022 11:07:39 »
Because God deemed it so. Who do you think you are? Galileo? Bruno? Occam?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #405 on: 06/09/2022 23:49:48 »
Here's a video from Alpha Phoenix, which may provide useful information to consider in designing experiment with water and ice.
What is polycrystalline water?
Quote
Episode 2 of my series on water ice! Admittedly this is probably the least interesting because it's some negative results, but it's not very scientific to only discuss successes right? In this video, I use a lens to melt ice from the inside out, exposing it's polycrystalline structure (and explain how it's different from a single crystal). With this partially-melted ice, I can do a bit of materials forensics, and actually figure out how it formed, hopefully so I can improve the process in the future!

Next video will be on vapor growth, and I'll say right now that it DOES work to grow centimeters-big faceted single crystals! Subscribe to make sure you see it!
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #406 on: 07/09/2022 08:41:42 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/09/2022 23:49:48
What is polycrystalline water?
What do you think?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #407 on: 07/09/2022 09:29:32 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/09/2022 23:49:48
Here's a video from Alpha Phoenix, which may provide useful information to consider in designing experiment with water and ice.
Well I'll be blowed! You add energy to ice, and it melts! Who would have thought it?
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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #408 on: 21/09/2022 13:48:03 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 07/09/2022 09:29:32
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/09/2022 23:49:48
Here's a video from Alpha Phoenix, which may provide useful information to consider in designing experiment with water and ice.
Well I'll be blowed! You add energy to ice, and it melts! Who would have thought it?
The heat generated in the center of the ice block is higher than the outer sides, even when it's farther away from the heat source.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #409 on: 21/09/2022 13:55:09 »
Yes. Power density is important in all sorts of processes.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #410 on: 21/09/2022 16:41:33 »
Another factor to consider in determining heat generation and transfer by wave is the formation of standing wave, which usually involves reflectors. Some areas may get less heat even when it's closer to the wave source.
It can be seen in microwave ovens.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #411 on: 21/09/2022 19:44:29 »
"Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?"
If you think there is, which way does it go?
When does it stop?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #412 on: 21/09/2022 23:54:24 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 21/09/2022 19:44:29
"Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?"
If you think there is, which way does it go?
When does it stop?
Here are my considerations :
Temperature is an average statistical value.
Some points in an object has more kinetic energy than another point, which vary in time.
Heat flows from points with locally-temporally higher kinetic energy to another point in thermal contact with them.
Water has higher heat content than ice, when they are at the same temperature and pressure.
« Last Edit: 22/09/2022 02:15:37 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #413 on: 22/09/2022 09:02:12 »
You seem to have forgotten to answer the questions.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #414 on: 22/09/2022 10:17:23 »
Let's try a different analogy. Consider two batteries, each with a potential of 1.5 volts. Connect them in parallel. Does any current flow from one to the other? Temperature is the thermal analog of electrical potential.
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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #415 on: 22/09/2022 13:30:26 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/09/2022 10:17:23
Let's try a different analogy.
I'm afraid Hamdani Yusuf is never going to get it, he still doesn't know what temperature is...
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #416 on: 22/09/2022 13:38:57 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 22/09/2022 09:02:12
You seem to have forgotten to answer the questions.
I thought you are smart enough to conclude based on those considerations.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #417 on: 22/09/2022 13:40:19 »
Quote from: Origin on 22/09/2022 13:30:26
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/09/2022 10:17:23
Let's try a different analogy.
I'm afraid Hamdani Yusuf is never going to get it, he still doesn't know what temperature is...
You don't seem to know either. At least I don't pretend to know something that I don't know.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #418 on: 22/09/2022 14:06:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/09/2022 13:38:57
Quote from: Bored chemist on 22/09/2022 09:02:12
You seem to have forgotten to answer the questions.
I thought you are smart enough to conclude based on those considerations.
Did you consider the idea that, no matter how smart I may or may not be, you didn't provide enough information.
So, for the third time
Quote from: Bored chemist on 21/09/2022 19:44:29
"Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?"
If you think there is, which way does it go?
When does it stop?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #419 on: 22/09/2022 14:30:02 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/09/2022 10:17:23
Let's try a different analogy. Consider two batteries, each with a potential of 1.5 volts. Connect them in parallel. Does any current flow from one to the other? Temperature is the thermal analog of electrical potential.
All analogies break down at some points, where they don't resemble the things that they are supposed to represent anymore. Your batteries don't experience phase changes. Hence they are more like two ice blocks with the same temperature.
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