0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Quote from: Malamute Lover on 13/07/2020 12:25:45 The laws of physics are time symmetricNot all of them, for example, there's the 2nd law of thermodynamics
The laws of physics are time symmetric
Quote from: Malamute Lover on 06/07/2020 00:16:34Why is it that the hot coffee gets cooler instead of hotter or just staying the same?The coffee does get hotter, if it's placed in hotter environment. Or near a strong microwave transmitter.
Why is it that the hot coffee gets cooler instead of hotter or just staying the same?
The fish clock does not work very well. The rate of flow of time is too variable based on external factors. Leave it on the table in the summer and the clock runs fast. Put it in the refrigerator and it runs slower. Even slower in the freezer. Cook it and can it and later make a tuna sandwich and it can even result in lower entropy in someone’s body. SLOT as a timekeeper does not work because it is statistical and subject to local variations. It is not universal as time is.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/07/2020 13:08:32Quote from: Malamute Lover on 13/07/2020 12:25:45 The laws of physics are time symmetricNot all of them, for example, there's the 2nd law of thermodynamicsSLOT is heuristically derived. We see it happening. It does not derive from any other laws, all of which are time symmetric. The question is WHY SLOT is asymmetric. Merely saying that it is does not answer that question.
Consider this scenario. We have two factories that each make widgets. Both factories are identical and each makes 1 defect per thousand widgets. The defect is connected to entropy. We throw these away defects, since it takes too much energy to reverse the defects entropy increase. it can be done but it is not cost effective. I will take one factory and place it on a massive planet so its clock time slows due to GR. The other factory will be moved to a reference where time speeds up. In a side by side comparison, from a neutral reference, the factory with the faster time reference will make more defects per unit of third reference time. Less mass allows for more entropy to be expressed compared to extra mass. The expansion of the universe is increasing the rate of entropy; tim speeds up, to make up for the slowing and reversal of entropy by gravity and mass.
Since gravity is a force
Since gravity is a force, when it lowers potential, it should give off energy.
As an easier to see example, say we expand a Nobel gas like Helium, so we can treat it as an ideal gas. We start with a compressed cylinder of gas at 20,000 PSI and open the valve. The gas and cylinder will get very cold as the gas expands due to the entropy increase.
Quote from: Malamute Lover on 13/07/2020 15:12:22Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/07/2020 13:08:32Quote from: Malamute Lover on 13/07/2020 12:25:45 The laws of physics are time symmetricNot all of them, for example, there's the 2nd law of thermodynamicsSLOT is heuristically derived. We see it happening. It does not derive from any other laws, all of which are time symmetric. The question is WHY SLOT is asymmetric. Merely saying that it is does not answer that question.We derived our laws of physics from experimental observations.We observed that dropped eggs don't hop back up onto tables and rebuild themselves.And thus it is the behaviour of the universe that drives the definition of our "laws".If time didn't flow as it does, the 2nd law wouldn't exist as it does.The universe generates the rules, not the other way round.
Quote from: Malamute Lover on 12/07/2020 19:53:16The fish clock does not work very well. The rate of flow of time is too variable based on external factors. Leave it on the table in the summer and the clock runs fast. Put it in the refrigerator and it runs slower. Even slower in the freezer. Cook it and can it and later make a tuna sandwich and it can even result in lower entropy in someone’s body. SLOT as a timekeeper does not work because it is statistical and subject to local variations. It is not universal as time is.Mass via General Relativity cause clocks and time to slow down or speed up based on how much mass the reference has. The fish clock does this with heat, while a regular clock does this with mass and GR. In both cases, the arrow of time always moves forward, but at differing rates based on mass or thermal energy and the type of clock one uses. Mass and gravity slows the rate at which time moves forward but does it not control the forward movement. A black hole may almost stop time for all practical purposes, but time still moves forward. Time is driven by entropy and the creation of limbo energy. The constant loss of useable energy from the universe does not allow time to cycle like a wave.
Since gravity is a force, when it lowers potential, it should give off energy. This is based on energy conservation. When gravity reverses entropy, that also gives off energy. The reversal of entropy puts limbo energy back into play, locally. While the exothermic output from gravity, apart from entropy increases entropy elsewhere; expansion. Cold appears in the expansion due to limbo energy creation.
Entropy and limbo energy is useful to life and enzyme catalysis. Rather than push a reaction up an energy hill, entropy create a type of energy vacuum, that pulls the reactants up the hill in hopes of getting its energy in the future. Normally, we add energy to push things up and over the energy hill, but entropy can be used to pull things up the hill, so in the future, the energy release becomes available for entropy. Cause and affect can appear to be reversed in time.
As an easier to see example, say we expand a Nobel gas like Helium, so we can treat it as an ideal gas. We start with a compressed cylinder of gas at 20,000 PSI and open the valve. The gas and cylinder will get very cold as the gas expands due to the entropy increase. The increasing entropy is sucking up the local thermal energy. It can get so cold, nearby, we start to feel the air puling heat from out of our bodies. Entropic catalysis works this way. The creation of limbo energy makes this change unable to reverse. There is no extra heat left to balance this off, so equilibrium will try to find it from secondary sources nearby.
Time is not driven by entropy. If entropy is decreased locally – and if it were not there would be no eggs to break – does that mean that time flowed backward? Does that mean that when entropy increases quickly, time flows faster? If you heat up a cup of coffee and drop an egg at the same time, what is happening to time? Is it going backward in the coffee pot? If you held onto the egg, would time not flow as fast?
The entropy level would be the same in the output of the two factories, one defect per 1000 units. Entropy is relative, not absolute. It is not a thing, only a measure.
The CO2 in those little bottles is liquid.The cooling is largely due to heat of vaporization. Nothing to do with entropy per se.It's another of Puppypower's irrelevant rambles..
Quote from: Malamute Lover on 15/07/2020 00:06:27Time is not driven by entropy. If entropy is decreased locally – and if it were not there would be no eggs to break – does that mean that time flowed backward? Does that mean that when entropy increases quickly, time flows faster? If you heat up a cup of coffee and drop an egg at the same time, what is happening to time? Is it going backward in the coffee pot? If you held onto the egg, would time not flow as fast?If you consider mass and gravity, which can lower entropy, locally, mass causes time to slow; GR. Along with time slowing this is also where entropy is decreasing due to pressure. However, since there is no such thing as perpetual motion, the lowering entropy will create some new entropy; not 100% efficient, therefore, time continues to propagate, albeit slower, to the future. This is based on regular clocks.
With the entropy clock; dead fish clock, time is dependent on temperature. In this case, cold decreases the energy that is available for entropy. This will make the time cycle of the dead fish get longer; refrigeration, so time appears to slow. Time is based on the relative behavior of clocks, whereas entropy is a physical thing that can alter the energy balance.
Quote from: Malamute Lover on 15/07/2020 00:06:27The entropy level would be the same in the output of the two factories, one defect per 1000 units. Entropy is relative, not absolute. It is not a thing, only a measure.Like in the twin paradox, one twin factory is aging faster. Part of that faster aging involves entropy, which is being expressed as more defects per unit of time in the middle reference. Where space-time is more open and time is moving faster, entropy (twin) will propagate faster.
The expansion of the universe more than compensates for the lowering of entropy caused by gravity, so the second law remains in affect.
What this used to bring to mind was an affect similar to an expanding gas affect. Picture if we had a cylinder of compressed water, heated above ts critical point. Water above its critical point is a dense fluid that is neither gas or liquid, but is both. I use this to make water a compressed gas in a cylinder and not a liquid. I open the value and release the pressure, causing the expanding water vapor to cool, as entropy increases and absorbs the energy. Since the expansion is cooling the water, some of the water starts to condense into droplets of liquid water. This lowers entropy, locally. These drops give off heat of fusion as the local entropy lowers. This way the entropy of the main expansion is providing itself a secondary energy source, for the larger entropy picture of things. The model that was developed was the entropy expansion of space-time causes gravity. Gravity is not the first or second law, but has a role further down the chain of command. This theory put the two big dogs of science first. This was one way to explain how galaxies could have formed so early in the universe and why there is so much open space-time between galaxies. The red shift would also be impacted by the local needs of the second law between the galaxies. The expansion also induces the stars to give off energy; nuclear fusion, to feed the universal entropy, thereby red shifting in places where there is not enough secondary energy output.
It has not been easy for science to characterize gravity as a force like the EM, weak and strong nuclear forces, since we cannot seem to find the energy output quanta that the rest of the forces give off, as they lower potential. Instead a new potential is created within the gravitational field, that slow the production of defects in widget factories.
Most of the cooling occurs due to the requirement to break the attraction between the molecules of the liquid.It's not an entropy thing as such.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/07/2020 18:09:32Most of the cooling occurs due to the requirement to break the attraction between the molecules of the liquid.It's not an entropy thing as such.That is an entropy increase, the gas having less energy than the liquid. The cooling is because existing heat energy was used to break the bounds in the liquid. I am starting to be sorry I picked CO2 as an example.
The factory that is producing more units is not just producing more defects, it is producing more order. The ratio is constant: 999 to 1. No entropy difference. Entropy is not a thing. It is a measure of disorder.
Even if gravity was a force there's no reason for it to give off energyIf I put a rubber band round a rock the band exerts a force on the rock (and vice versa) but it doesn't give off energy.
There is no energy made unavailable. I can take a large rock, lift it against gravity and then place it on a shelf. I can then reverse this, by pushing it off the shelf, to get back all the energy.
Quote from: Malamute Lover on 15/07/2020 22:22:55The factory that is producing more units is not just producing more defects, it is producing more order. The ratio is constant: 999 to 1. No entropy difference. Entropy is not a thing. It is a measure of disorder.In the twin paradox, which is a similar scenario to the twin factories, the twin aging faster expresses more entropy. Entropy is a state variable and aging faster reaches a more complicated state; old age, faster.
Mass, via GR, can adjust the rate of local entropy by altering the local space-time reference. Once a star forms, larger stars process entropy faster and reach more complex states sooner. The expanding universe is speeding up time and the rate of entropy. This is compensating for the slowing of time due to mass and gravity.
But gravity is a short term entropy lowering affect, since once a star or planet is formed, the entropy starts to increase again into more complicated states. The star begins fusion and then the formation of higher atomic states, which can then lead to molecules, etc.
The universe did not always expand at the same rate as today, nor did star formation always have the same rate. Expansion speeds up entropy while gravity slows the rate of entropy. However, entropy will continue to move forward and take away usable energy from the universe.
Entropy can locally go forward or reverse, but there is always an energy balance consideration. Whether you go forward or backwards, energy is being made net unavailable to the universe. In other words, to reverse entropy to a previous state, takes more energy than you will get back, This is connected to perpetual motion not being possible.
Gravity and mass is reversible. There is no energy made unavailable. I can take a large rock, lift it against gravity and then place it on a shelf. I can then reverse this, by pushing it off the shelf, to get back all the energy. There is no lost energy, unless entropy is involved. Entropy and lost energy makes time asymmetric even for gravity and mass. Stars will age to a more complicated state even with mass present. In the end they explode to increase entropy, again.
If you look at a star's core, this is the place where space-time is most contacted and time runs the slowest according to GR. This is the bottom of the star's space-time well. Ironically, the core of the star is also the place of fusion, highest heat; and fastest material transitions. There is a second lawyer of time; highest frequency core zone, due to pressure, that goes the opposite of the GR time affect of the core. The core is the faster place not the slowest as implied by GR.
Acceleration is one part distance and two parts time or a=d/t/t. Gravity has two time vectors; macro and micro. each going in opposite directions. The slow GR reference clock and a faster core gamma frequency based clock. As gravity increases both become stronger bit in opposite directions. This does not happen with distance, since both space in space-time and space in fusion move in the same direction. It is one part distance and two parts time.
Time is not a thing but a perception of change of state that cannot fully reverse. Tomorrow will be different from today since time does not cycle or repeat like a clock. Lost energy assures that the arrow of time needs to go forward, since the previous state of time had more energy in play and we cannot recreate that or we will be violating perpetual motion.
Gravity and mass are not reversible. If you pick that rock up again, you need to input energy to restore the potential energy so it can drop again. If you let it go, it falls by itself. For the rock to jump up on its own without energy input would require ‘running the movie backward’. That would mean antigravity and that would imply a negative mass-energy universe. The reason for SLOT is that all the mass-energy in the universe has the same sign and gravity always ‘pulls’. There is a built-in time asymmetry in the universe.
To lower entropy, you also need to add energy,
With the example of the rock and gravity, it takes energy to lift the rock. Once the rock is released all that energy is restored, due to gravity The energy balance results in all useable energy forward or backwards; energy conservation.
To lower entropy, you also need to add energy, and like gravity, entropy will also reverse itself, but now via the second law. However, some energy will be missing and/or made unusable in both directions. I call it limbo energy. It is still in the universe, but it is no longer in a state, where it can be easily reused, without even further loss of useable energy. The entropy of the universe has to increase to lower the entropic potential implied by the 2nd law. This creates limbo energy only useful to entropy. Entropy does not share, as does gravity.
All other expressions of potential energy, based on mass and gravity and all the forces of nature, need to decrease to lower their potential. They will release energy, which can be reused; energy conservation. Entropy has to increase to lower potential. This adds a twist where more is less instead of less is less. More is less has an energy cost.
The core of the sun has the most time dilation due to GR. This is the bottom of the space-time well. Our mechanical and atomic clocks will slow there. As gravity gains mass and compresses, the pressure causes the core to heat up. The material and energy frequencies increase due to the heat and pressure. The atomic and energy based clocks, used by the star's core, get faster and faster. These transitional clocks, are not getting slower and slower, as suggested by GR. Rather the choice of natural clock is getting faster and faster; entropy between the margins.
We use atomic clocks; Cesium Fountain, for accuracy. The sun uses nuclear clocks to set the pace for accuracy; gamma and fusion transitional clocks. It needs this fast time speed for marginal entropy. This is a different time vector than that of GR; slowed cesium clock.
The heat of fusion is increasing the entropy once again, as matter changes states and moves within the convection. Solar flares reverse gravity and continue off into space. In the end, mass and gravity helped walk the matter up an energy hill, and once over the hill, entropy begins to accelerate again. It is two steps back and three steps forward. The star cannot use gravity to put the entropy genie back into the bottle, one fusion is lit, since some energy goes to limbo.
If you were a spiritual minded person, who also believes in science, entropy and limbo energy would be good place to find spiritual realms. This limbo energy is predicted by the second law and would be based on a form that cannot be accessed fully from the inertial states. Rather an ever increasing pool of limbo energy, connected to increase ever increasing entropy, would be forming. The lack of full reusability by matter places this energy a different type of dimension.
This all comes together, if we assume the speed of light reference is the ground state or the zero state of the universe. There entropy would be infinite.This is the driver of the second law. Infinite entropy would place all energy into limbo. This would mean there is no useable energy for inertial dynamics so time would stop and then become timeless.