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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  4. Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
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Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?

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Offline puppypower

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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #40 on: 18/07/2020 12:17:00 »
Quote from: Malamute Lover on 18/07/2020 02:10:03
There is no limbo energy, there is energy changed into different forms which might have surprising effects. It is not in a different dimension. SLOT is a heuristically derived rule of thumb that would barely be relevant to anything if there were no pockets of low entropy resulting from gravity always being ‘down’, a result of mass-energy always being positive.

Even in a state of maximum entropy, there are still statistical fluctuations where things can happen. Energy does not disappear and it can turn up at surprising times. SLOT as a rule of thumb is very useful. SLOT as a universal law only applies to the entire universe.

The term entropy was coined during the development of steam engines. The developers notice that the energy inputted into the devices, did not equal the energy that outputted from the device using a standard energy balance. There was always lost energy. This lost energy was called entropy. It is measurable and inferred by what is lost.

This lost energy is something more than statistical variations.Statistical assumptions are misleading since it describes an imaginary world that does not exist. It is an approximation method uses to simplify a complex situation. For example, a six sided dice is manufactured to weigh the same on all side, so it rolls evenly and any side will appear with the same probability. The difference in the sides, has to do wth a facade of dots, 1-6, that have no physical basis or connection to the roll. This is not found in nature.

A hydrogen atom  is not designed this way. It is a 5 sided dice with different energy weights on each of the five sides. Entropy deals in natural dice, which have physical weight difference, and not just subjective decorative weights, that only mean something to humans.

The second law says that the entropy of the universe has to increase, which means there needs to be ever increasing, net lost of energy, in the universe that gets tied up into entropy. The energy is in the form of entropy, which does not net reverse thoughout the universe, therefore there is net increasing energy, that is not net reuseable. Gravity will retrieve some of this limbo energy absorbed into entropy, but not all of it, since the second law states that entropy and its limbo energy equvient, has to increase. 

Using the example for the hydrogen atom dice, with five weighed sides, statistics will assume all sides of the hydrogen dice are equal. This simplification is not the case. Some of the sides use more energy. In the lab, proteins will form both left and right handed helixes when synthesized. In life, only left handed protein helixes form. Life can load the dice via entropy.

Statistically in the lab, this looks like a flip of a coin, with equal weighed sides, but with different subjective decorations; let or right.  In reality, you cannot substitute right handed protein for left handed protein and get the protein to work properly. These are not equal and opposite but each has a different weight in terms of catalysis. This difference on natural sides of dice, is part of he limbo energy that is ignored by statistical assumptions. Left handed protein helixes have a higher entropic potential, even if statistic assumes they weight the same as right handed dice.

Entropyu is a state variable meaning for any given state there is a fixed amount of entropy. The left and right handed helixes are two different states; loaded dice in terms of cells.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #41 on: 18/07/2020 19:46:26 »
Quote from: puppypower on 18/07/2020 12:17:00
This lost energy was called entropy.
Not really, because entropy and energy don't even have the same units.
Quote from: puppypower on 18/07/2020 12:17:00
This lost energy is something more than statistical variations.
Nobody said it was.


Quote from: puppypower on 18/07/2020 12:17:00
Statistical assumptions are misleading since it describes an imaginary world that does not exist.
No it doesn't. It describes atoms, for example.
Quote from: puppypower on 18/07/2020 12:17:00
For example, a six sided dice is manufactured to weigh the same on all side, so it rolls evenly and any side will appear with the same probability. The difference in the sides, has to do wth a facade of dots, 1-6, that have no physical basis or connection to the roll. This is not found in nature.
Nature is very good at doing statistical things- like weather, epidemics and population sizes.
Quote from: puppypower on 18/07/2020 12:17:00
A hydrogen atom  is not designed this way. It is a 5 sided dice with different energy weights on each of the five sides.
Wow!
No it's not.
But, even if it was, it wouldn't matter.
Statistics is perfectly capable of dealing with weighted dice.
Quote from: puppypower on 18/07/2020 12:17:00
statistics will assume all sides of the hydrogen dice are equal.
Not if it is used competently.
Quote from: puppypower on 18/07/2020 12:17:00
ever increasing, net lost of energy

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Offline puppypower

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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #42 on: 19/07/2020 14:52:16 »
Think of a six sided dice. It is manufactured to be equally weighed on all sides, with the difference on each side connected to different arbitrary and subjective pictures, such as the number of dots. Cards are similar in the sense that each card has the same weight and size, while the potential between different cards is based on subjective pictures and the rules of the game you play. We use imaginary things and claim their activity are the foundation behind natural processes? Card and dice appeared long before science.

In the 1950's statistics reached a cross roads when it was discovered that proteins fold with exact folds. Previously, it was assumed that the thermal vibrations in the water would lead to average folds in protein. However, observational data showed that protein were not subject to as much entropy, as had been assumed by statistics. Even after 60 years there is still no good statistical explanation for this. Life is not about cards and dice but it continues to be modeled that way. Gambling was too addictive to stop.

The repeatable and perfect packing of protein, each time, implies that something is causing the entropy to lower or remain lower.  It is like throwing a dice 1000 times and the same sides keep coming up. The question is, what is loading the dice?

The answer is water and the analogy is the [b water and oil affect[/b]. If we mix water and olive oil and shake, we get an emulsion that might be defined by statistics. It is high in entropy due to the energy we added by shaking. If we let it settle, the odds start to change, bubble get larger and large, until we get only two layers. Order can form from chaos. This same water and oil affect is common to life, allowing life to cheat at cards. Water is not welcome at the science casinos since it can count cards.

Life forms all types of structures with lower entropy, than is predicted by statistics. Instead of proteins folding into an average distribution of shapes, which would be a more complex state; higher entropy, it folds into one specific way each time. There is an entropic potential created, relative to the statistical assumptions. Life makes use of this structural entropic potential to help drive chemical reactions. The reactive site becomes a way to increase entropy for the entire configuration. However, this can never satisfy all the needs of statistics, since water repacks the protein back to step one and resets the potential.

Another example of nature controlling statistics, is the observation of a quantum universe. For example, the hydrogen atom has five quantized energy levels. There is not a random distribution of infinite energy levels but rather there is a specific limit and configuration.  Like the packing of protein, only specific things are allowed.

This controlling of entropy is used to save time. In other words, if we need A and B to react before we can move to the next step, by limiting the options; only certain quanta, things can happen faster. Higher states can appear sooner since you do not have to cycle through as many things. There is more than one form of entropy. Statistics appear to express one type, but not the other type, implicit of the speed toward higher states made possible by a quantum universe.
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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #43 on: 19/07/2020 16:02:07 »
Quote from: puppypower on 19/07/2020 14:52:16
In the 1950's statistics reached a cross roads when it was discovered that proteins fold with exact folds.
That has  little to do with statistics.
Not least because, of course, protein folding  isn't statistical.
There's a small army of chaperones and helpers.

Quote from: puppypower on 19/07/2020 14:52:16
The answer is water
No
The answer is  a small army of chaperones and helpers.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i31/Protein-folding-Much-intricate-thought.html
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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #44 on: 19/07/2020 16:26:51 »
Quote from: puppypower on 19/07/2020 14:52:16
Think of a six sided dice. It is manufactured to be equally weighed on all sides, with the difference on each side connected to different arbitrary and subjective pictures, such as the number of dots. Cards are similar in the sense that each card has the same weight and size, while the potential between different cards is based on subjective pictures and the rules of the game you play. We use imaginary things and claim their activity are the foundation behind natural processes? Card and dice appeared long before science.

As I have been saying, SLOT is a statistical law relating to isolated systems. There can be very considerable release and reuse of packed up energy on a local basis when conditions are right. To treat entropy as a force or as a thing in itself does not work. “Limbo energy’ does not have to stay in limbo. SLOT is a statistical prediction on a large scale. The Fluctuation Theorem deals with the probability of limited entropy increases and stabilized or even decreasing entropy in systems that are far from thermodynamic equilibrium.  SLOT is only statistically true on the large scale.

Note that SLOT deals with the improbability of spontaneous flow of energy from cold to hot regions and similar events. However, in this complicated universe, spontaneity is a rarity. Everything influences everything and substantial energy flow, even though it obeys SLOT, facilitates the appearance of self-sustaining feedback systems.

And as always, what is responsible for substantial energy flows, such as stars, and places for feedback systems to prosper, such as the surface of planets near stars, and the proper materials for building such feedback systems, such as elements heavier than hydrogen and helium? None of these things came out of the Big Bang. What brought them into existence? Gravity, specifically one=way gravity. And why is gravity a one-way force? Because all of the real mass-energy in the universe has a positive sign.

Quote from: puppypower on 19/07/2020 14:52:16
In the 1950's statistics reached a cross roads when it was discovered that proteins fold with exact folds. Previously, it was assumed that the thermal vibrations in the water would lead to average folds in protein. However, observational data showed that protein were not subject to as much entropy, as had been assumed by statistics. Even after 60 years there is still no good statistical explanation for this. Life is not about cards and dice but it continues to be modeled that way. Gambling was too addictive to stop.

The repeatable and perfect packing of protein, each time, implies that something is causing the entropy to lower or remain lower.  It is like throwing a dice 1000 times and the same sides keep coming up. The question is, what is loading the dice?

The answer is water and the analogy is the [b water and oil affect[/b]. If we mix water and olive oil and shake, we get an emulsion that might be defined by statistics. It is high in entropy due to the energy we added by shaking. If we let it settle, the odds start to change, bubble get larger and large, until we get only two layers. Order can form from chaos. This same water and oil affect is common to life, allowing life to cheat at cards. Water is not welcome at the science casinos since it can count cards.

Although this is not my field, Anfisen’s Thermodynamic Hypothesis seems a pretty good approach to the Protein Folding Problem. “(T)he native structure of a protein is the thermodynamically stable structure; it depends only on the amino acid sequence and on the conditions of solution, and not on the kinetic folding route.”

But I agree, life cheats at cards. Although in the end the house still wins, as long as there is suitable energy flow to exploit, life keeps playing and winning hands. After all, the house does not care who wins or loses, statistically the house always comes out ahead. Entropy is not a force or a thing in itself.  It is a statistical prediction about the entire isolated system, not individual parts, Just like the casino.

Quote from: puppypower on 19/07/2020 14:52:16
Life forms all types of structures with lower entropy, than is predicted by statistics. Instead of proteins folding into an average distribution of shapes, which would be a more complex state; higher entropy, it folds into one specific way each time. There is an entropic potential created, relative to the statistical assumptions. Life makes use of this structural entropic potential to help drive chemical reactions. The reactive site becomes a way to increase entropy for the entire configuration. However, this can never satisfy all the needs of statistics, since water repacks the protein back to step one and resets the potential.

Exactly. Entropy is not a force or a thing in itself. It does not directly influence events. It is only a statistical prediction about the big picture.

Quote from: puppypower on 19/07/2020 14:52:16
Another example of nature controlling statistics, is the observation of a quantum universe. For example, the hydrogen atom has five quantized energy levels. There is not a random distribution of infinite energy levels but rather there is a specific limit and configuration.  Like the packing of protein, only specific things are allowed.

There is a difference between possible energy levels in the hydrogen atom (or atoms in general) and protein folding. In an atom, it is impossible to have any other energy levels due to Planck’s constant being an invariant non-zero value. All sorts of organic chemistry compounds are possible but only some of them can carry out protein-like functions.

In quantum mechanics, the five energy levels associated with the hydrogen atom consist of four orbitals and the ionized state, where the electron cloud (as it is depicted in QM) is so large it is pointless to consider it as associated with the proton nucleus for any practical purpose, such as chemistry. Another electron with a lower energy level can displace it.  In theory the electron can have still higher quantized energy levels without limit.  But in the real world, there would not be a coherent electron cloud associated with a proton, it being swamped by the presence of other atoms.

Quote from: puppypower on 19/07/2020 14:52:16
This controlling of entropy is used to save time. In other words, if we need A and B to react before we can move to the next step, by limiting the options; only certain quanta, things can happen faster. Higher states can appear sooner since you do not have to cycle through as many things. There is more than one form of entropy. Statistics appear to express one type, but not the other type, implicit of the speed toward higher states made possible by a quantum universe.

Because of quantized states being the heart and soul of quantum mechanics, entropy plays very little part. Dissipation of small quantities of energy cannot happen when it only comes in large chunks. Only when the scale gets larger and the quanta relatively smaller do we start to see statistics at work.

Aside: Although it is customary to talk about energy being quantized when not dealing with a strictly technical audience, the actual unit of Planck’s Constant is action, the product of energy and time. The distinction is critical if one wants to understand the mechanism of the Uncertainty Principle in detail. Otherwise, who cares… [/OCD]
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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #45 on: 20/07/2020 12:06:28 »
The Uncertainty principle is an artifact of having two different reference, while trying to normalize all the observations to just one reference. This creates uncertainty. For example, in the twin paradox, one twin ages faster in their reference relative to the other. If we treated them with one same reference, we would have problems in terms of synchronizing them in position and momentum, since time and distance propagates at different rates.

The atom is the same situation, with electrons moving a fraction of the speed of light, while the nucleus, for all practical purposes, is the stationary twin. Relativity will impact time, space and energy; momentum via mass.

There is an affect in photography, that has around since the 1850's, called motion blur. Motion blue occurs when action of the subject moves faster that the shutter speed of the camera. The camera limits its reference, in space and time based on the the shutter speed, where speed equals d/t. It often puzzled me that Heisenberg never saw this analogy since it was there before his theory.

In the image below, the motion blur occurs where the action is faster than the shutter speed. In this still photo, time os stopped so we can see position of the cat and mouse. However, we cannot determine the momentum of the cat or mouse, since the cat and mouse appear stopped. But in other places in the photo; background;  we sense there is motion and momentum, but we cannot tell the exact position in space, due to the blur.

Many of the mystery concepts of science, like why quanta and why the uncertainty principle, need an upgrade, before other things make more sense. The uncertainty principle appeared as lab proof before we could prove relativity in the lab at that scale.


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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #46 on: 20/07/2020 19:26:13 »
Quote from: puppypower on 20/07/2020 12:06:28
The Uncertainty principle is an artifact of having two different reference, while trying to normalize all the observations to just one reference. This creates uncertainty. For example, in the twin paradox, one twin ages faster in their reference relative to the other. If we treated them with one same reference, we would have problems in terms of synchronizing them in position and momentum, since time and distance propagates at different rates.

Wrong. The Uncertainty Principle states that there is a minimum uncertainty in determining the position and momentum of a particle. Momentum is a vector quantity that includes direction. What the Principle says is that the more precisely you measure the position of a particle the less certain will be a simultaneous measurement of where it is headed. Likewise, a precise measurement of direction will make the position measurement less certain.

This is a consequence of Planck’s Constant, which explains how energy is related to the frequency of light. There is a minimum chunk of action possible, action being energy multiplied by time.

The Uncertainty Principle is part of Quantum Theory. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Relativity Theory. Having everything in the same inertial frame of reference does not change the Uncertainty Principle.

A feeling for how Uncertainty works might be obtained from this metaphor. And keep in mind that this is just a metaphor. Don’t push it too far.

Imagine a particle as a wave expanding in space as it moves in time. If you look at a very small part of the wave, you get a precise location for it. But you have a very poor idea of where the whole wave is heading. If you look at a large part of the wave you get a better idea of where it is going but you do not have a good idea of where it is.

Quote from: puppypower on 20/07/2020 12:06:28
The atom is the same situation, with electrons moving a fraction of the speed of light, while the nucleus, for all practical purposes, is the stationary twin. Relativity will impact time, space and energy; momentum via mass.

Nothing to do with the Uncertainty Principle, which is unrelated to Relativity.  And the Twin Paradox is not a paradox at all. Nor does it have anything to do with nuclei and electrons which are definitely not twins.

Also, electrons in atomic shells move less than 1% of light speed, not enough to make much difference in terms of relativity.

Quote from: puppypower on 20/07/2020 12:06:28
There is an affect in photography, that has around since the 1850's, called motion blur. Motion blue occurs when action of the subject moves faster that the shutter speed of the camera. The camera limits its reference, in space and time based on the the shutter speed, where speed equals d/t. It often puzzled me that Heisenberg never saw this analogy since it was there before his theory.

Maybe because it has nothing to do with the Uncertainty Principle. If cameras worked in the Heisenberg manner, the faster the shutter speed, the more blurred the moving subject would be.
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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #47 on: 21/07/2020 21:16:59 »
Everything you said about the uncertainty principle can be inferred from motion blur. The shutter speed is an expression of how long the shutter stays open to collect light. If we leave the shutter open for a long time; slow shutter speed, almost any motion will appear to have a blur.

The reason is, the moving object will deposit light onto the film while it moves, as long as the shutter is open.  If I have a camera that is focused on a 100 meter frame, a moving automobile that is 10 meters long can appear to be steak, that extends over the full 100 meter frame, if we leave tr shutter ope ling enough. We do not know where it is by the picture; data, since the blurred image is longer than the car. I suppose we could model it with a probability function.

If we go the other way and use a very fast cameras with very fast shutter speeds; 1/millionth of a second, even fast objects are stopped cold in position. But because it is stopped and we know exactly where it is, we have not clue what the future holds, in terms of its momentum vector and speed. It could be turning or drifting in a straight line.

There is a branch of Chemistry called Relativistic Quantum Chemistry. 

Quote
Relativistic quantum chemistry combines relativistic mechanics with quantum chemistry to explain elemental properties and structure, especially for the heavier elements of the periodic table. A prominent example of such an explanation is the color of gold. It is not silvery like most other metals due to relativistic effects.

Relativistic effects in chemistry can be considered to be perturbations, or small corrections, to the non-relativistic theory of chemistry, which is developed from the solutions of the Schrödinger equation. These corrections affect the electrons differently depending on the electron speed relative to the speed of light. Relativistic effects are more prominent in heavy elements because only in these elements do electrons attain sufficient speeds for the elements to have properties that differ from what non-relativistic chemistry predicts

Gold does not have outer elections that naturally emit yellow light when excited. Instead any incoming light is time/frequency shifted yellow by gold's outer elections. All colors of light will get a yellow time shift when reflected in a gold mirror.

Quantum theory was originally developed without incorporating relativistic affects.  Schrödinger and Heisenberg made their contributions to quantum theory and probability in 1926-27. Relativistic Quantum Chemistry did not appear until the 1970's.

Statistics has a connection to this, Schrödinger and Heisenberg both framed a quantum universe that was full of uncertainty, probability and wave functions. This was a big boost for the new modeling technique called statistics. Technology was either too expensive or not yet there for direct measurements for the science masses. Statistics opened physics and other areas of science to more people. These two men made it possible.  More recently, relativistic affects were added to quantum mechanics and and some of the fuzzy dice where not longer as fuzzy.
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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #48 on: 21/07/2020 21:21:52 »
Quote from: puppypower on 21/07/2020 21:16:59
Gold does not have outer elections that naturally emit yellow light when excited. Instead any incoming light is time/frequency shifted yellow by gold's outer elections. All colors of light will get a yellow time shift when reflected in a gold mirror.

Bollocks.
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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #49 on: 22/07/2020 01:39:23 »
Quote from: puppypower on 21/07/2020 21:16:59
Everything you said about the uncertainty principle can be inferred from motion blur. The shutter speed is an expression of how long the shutter stays open to collect light. If we leave the shutter open for a long time; slow shutter speed, almost any motion will appear to have a blur.

The reason is, the moving object will deposit light onto the film while it moves, as long as the shutter is open.  If I have a camera that is focused on a 100 meter frame, a moving automobile that is 10 meters long can appear to be steak, that extends over the full 100 meter frame, if we leave tr shutter ope ling enough. We do not know where it is by the picture; data, since the blurred image is longer than the car. I suppose we could model it with a probability function.

If we go the other way and use a very fast cameras with very fast shutter speeds; 1/millionth of a second, even fast objects are stopped cold in position. But because it is stopped and we know exactly where it is, we have not clue what the future holds, in terms of its momentum vector and speed. It could be turning or drifting in a straight line.

The blur is supposed to represent velocity? I see the analogy now. But Heisenberg would not. The new field of quantum theory did not work like the macro world. Whether the camera shows a precise image or a blur has no effect on what the car is going to do. It only affects the image. In the quantum world, the relative precision of the two measurements has an effect on what the next measurements will show.  The camera taking a picture of a moving car does not affect what the next camera will show.

Quote from: puppypower on 21/07/2020 21:16:59
There is a branch of Chemistry called Relativistic Quantum Chemistry. 

Quote
Relativistic quantum chemistry combines relativistic mechanics with quantum chemistry to explain elemental properties and structure, especially for the heavier elements of the periodic table. A prominent example of such an explanation is the color of gold. It is not silvery like most other metals due to relativistic effects.

Relativistic effects in chemistry can be considered to be perturbations, or small corrections, to the non-relativistic theory of chemistry, which is developed from the solutions of the Schrödinger equation. These corrections affect the electrons differently depending on the electron speed relative to the speed of light. Relativistic effects are more prominent in heavy elements because only in these elements do electrons attain sufficient speeds for the elements to have properties that differ from what non-relativistic chemistry predicts

The Schrödinger equations can be used for any physical system to take quantum effects into consideration. Relativistic speeds are not necessarily involved. It is the application of the Schrödinger equations to atoms that led to the quantification  of orbital level characteristics for example. Treating the electron as a wave leads to the electron cloud concept, which sheds light on what is really happening in covalent bounds for example.

High speeds of the electrons in the N=1 shell (and possibly higher) in elements with high atomic numbers is due to the powerful positive electric field of all those protons. The electrons need to have a higher speed (energy level) to keep from being absorbed into the nucleus.

But most relativistic concerns do not arise until speeds get really high. In the transactinide elements – artificially created elements with atomic numbers of 104 and higher – speeds of 0.8 c have been observed for inner shell electrons. (By comparison, uranium has the highest naturally occurring atomic number at 92.) This amounts to a mass increase of about two thirds. But because these elements have only ever been created in sub-microscopic quantities and the half-lives range from about an hour down to seconds, there has yet to be much research into chemical properties. What little there has been has yet to show relativistic effects.

In less exotic elements, relativistic effects need to be considered in spin-orbit coupling, the interaction between the several electromagnetic fields in play. This can affect fine tuning of energy levels. The speed is not the factor in introducing relativistic concerns here. It is that the concept of spin only arises in the Dirac equation – a merger of Schrödinger’s equations and Heisenberg’s matrices – which is an inherently relativistic entity.

Quote from: puppypower on 21/07/2020 21:16:59
Quantum theory was originally developed without incorporating relativistic affects.  Schrödinger and Heisenberg made their contributions to quantum theory and probability in 1926-27. Relativistic Quantum Chemistry did not appear until the 1970's.

Statistics has a connection to this, Schrödinger and Heisenberg both framed a quantum universe that was full of uncertainty, probability and wave functions. This was a big boost for the new modeling technique called statistics. Technology was either too expensive or not yet there for direct measurements for the science masses. Statistics opened physics and other areas of science to more people. These two men made it possible.  More recently, relativistic affects were added to quantum mechanics and and some of the fuzzy dice where not longer as fuzzy.

Probability as it is used in quantum theory does not have the same meaning as in statistics.

The probabilistic element in quantum mechanics concerns probability amplitude waves, these being represented by complex numbers that are the square root of a probability.  Probability amplitudes come in evolving positive and negative wave forms that can constructively or destructively interfere. The wave function collapse, as it is termed, can take one of multiple possible forms with the probability of each appearing in event ensembles. The term statistics in quantum theory refers to the accumulation of data points, not the use of statistical techniques, although those may be used in testing hypotheses. Otherwise, there is very little connection with the use of statistics in other sciences.

BTW Heisenberg accidentally re-invented the wheel in developing the basics of matrix algebra to deal with what he was seeing. He later was informed that this was already a well-developed field with applications beyond what he needed. Interestingly, matrix algebra is used extensively in statistical analysis and in programming a variety of engineering problems. It is also great for solving simultaneous equations. In physics, matrix algebra is typically used in dealing with vectors and their big brother tensors.

The roots of using matrices to solve simultaneous equations can be found in a mathematical text from ancient China. :)

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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #50 on: 22/07/2020 12:03:22 »
An interesting application of wave functions is the hydrogen bond. In water, a hydrogen bonds will form between the hydrogen of one water molecule and the unshared electrons of the oxygen on a  second water molecule.

 Hydrogen bonds show both polar and covalent bonding character. As such, a hydrogen bond can start out as a secondary polar bond between neighbors, and then change into a primary covalent bond with its neighbor, allowing hydrogen to trade places between neighbors. We see this as the pH affect. This transitional ability of the hydrogen bond allows water to help break strong bonds with little energy.

Although liquid water, as a state, is timeless in many ways, the individual water molecules are renewed constantly, with specific hydrogen and oxygen bonds lasting nanoseconds; constantly trading partners.

The polar aspect of the hydrogen bond has higher density, higher entropy and higher enthalpy. While the covalent aspect of hydrogen bonding has lower density, lower entropy and lower enthalpy. The polar aspect is more common in liquid water due to the second law, but entropy can spontaneously reverse via the covalent state of the bond.

If you compare the polar to the covalent aspects of hydrogen bonding, the polar is more about charge potential, while the covenant is more about magnetic; moving charges. The polar bond benefits by closer distances; denser, while a covalent bond often spreads things out; less dense, so it can aligns things in specific ways for better orbital overlap. This is slanted to the magnetic side of the EM force; opposite spin for example. The hydrogen bond can tweak the local EM force and shift it to the E or M side of the EM force, with the M side having lower entropy.

This makes the hydrogen bond the perfect binary switch for information transfer. However, it is more than a simple on-off switch. It is a switch with muscle that can impact its local surrounding, as well as be impacted by the local physical states. Computers have nothing close.

In terms of time, time flies when your are having fun and time slows or drags when you are anticipating something. Consciousness, through the hydrogen bonding matrix, can experience its own version of time dilation by regulating information entropy and free energy.
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Re: Why is the Second Law of Thermodynamics (SLOT) time asymmetric?
« Reply #51 on: 22/07/2020 13:45:26 »
Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
The polar aspect of the hydrogen bond has higher density, higher entropy and higher enthalpy. While the covalent aspect of hydrogen bonding has lower density, lower entropy and lower enthalpy.
Bollocks.
It's the same bond.
You can't separate the two aspects like that.
Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
This transitional ability of the hydrogen bond allows water to help break strong bonds with little energy.
Just not true.

Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
If you compare the polar to the covalent aspects of hydrogen bonding, the polar is more about charge potential, while the covenant is more about magnetic; moving charges.
It has nothing to do with magnetism.
Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
, but entropy can spontaneously reverse via the covalent state of the bond.
That doesn't mean enough to be wrong.
Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
The polar bond benefits by closer distances; denser, while a covalent bond often spreads things out; less dense, so it can aligns things in specific ways for better orbital overlap.
Again, this is tosh. There's only 1 bond there.
Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
This is slanted to the magnetic side of the EM force
No it isn't.
Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
The hydrogen bond can tweak the local EM force and shift it to the E or M side of the EM force
That's nonsense.
Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
In terms of time, time flies when your are having fun and time slows or drags when you are anticipating something.
No.
Time ticks steadily on.
Your brains attempt to keep track of it is distorted by other events.
Quote from: puppypower on 22/07/2020 12:03:22
This makes the hydrogen bond the perfect binary switch for information transfer.
Nope, it's a very bad choice for that.
As you pointed out before, it only lasts nanoseconds before it gets scrambled (actually it's picoseconds but...)
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