[Bored chemist]

But when you read it, you do understand that it is all about the galaxies expansion and not about the space expansion.

You missed the point.
The "message" about the galaxy was carried here on a wave traveling in spacetime.
That wave is an expansion of space in a similar way to sound being compression and expansion of air.
Ligo detects that expansion and contraction of space.

[Bored chemist]

Therefore, Let's agree that you have no evidence for space expansion and let me move on to the next subject.

We can't move on until you understand this subject.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

The ones who understand relativity say that things can not tarvel through space faster than light.

The relativity doesn't prevent from galaxies at far away space-time to move faster than the speed of light.

Ligo detects that expansion and contraction of space.

No
This is incorrect!!!
Our scientists specifically claim in LIGO that they measure a specific object.
So it is not about the expansion of the space but about the expansion of that object.

We can't move on until you understand this subject.

Until you set clear evidence for the space expansion itself, then you can continue with your imagination.

[Bored chemist]

Our scientists specifically claim in LIGO that they measure a specific object.
So it is not about the expansion of the space but about the expansion of that object.

No, they measure the space between two objects- two mirrors.

We can't move on until you understand this subject.

[Bored chemist]

The relativity doesn't prevent from galaxies at far away space-time to move faster than the speed of light.

Relativity allows the expansion of space.
But it does forbid travel through space at more than C.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Quote from: Dave Lev on Today at 17:14:51
Our scientists specifically claim in LIGO that they measure a specific object.
So it is not about the expansion of the space but about the expansion of that object.

No, they measure the space between two objects- two mirrors.

The space doesn't reflect any radiation.
So, as I have stated, they measure the expansion of those two objects- two mirrors.
In other words, they do not measure the expansion of the space itself (as the space itself has no radiation to indicate its coordinates) but they measure those two objects/mirror as they cross the space.
Based on that they can detect their expansion.
So, it is all about matter/objects expansion and not space expansion.

Relativity allows the expansion of space.
But it does forbid travel through space at more than C.

I have already explained it to you that at far away space time object can move faster than the speed of light with reference to us. However, at their location they can't move faster than the speed of light.

https://www.quora.com/If-nothing-is-faster-than-light-how-did-the-Big-Bang-happen-in-less-than-a-nanosecond
"At no point during the evolution of the universe did any object move faster than the vacuum speed of light at the object’s location.
However, in curved space-time, there is absolutely no rule that says that an object cannot be faster than light relative to a distant observer.
So even today, there are parts of the universe, which are inaccessible to us through observation, which (as far as we know) are moving faster than light relative to us. But that’s okay. They are not moving faster than light at their own location."

[Bored chemist]

The space doesn't reflect any radiation.

Nobody said it did.
The fact that you say that suggests that you still do not understand.

So, as I have stated, they measure the expansion of those two objects- two mirrors.

No. You said they measured the expansion of an object

in LIGO that they measure a specific object.

But what they measure is how far apart the two mirrors are.
And the gap between two mirrors is space, and that's what they measure.
It is important in science to be able to count to at least two.


There are plans to build more sensitive gravity wave detectors where the mirrors are on separate satellites.
That makes it even more obvious that (1) they ae measuring the space between the things and (2) you are wrong.

So, it is all about matter/objects expansion and not space expansion.

No.
You still need to find out how LIGO works.

Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 16:47:31
We can't move on until you understand this subject.

I have already explained it to you that at far away space time object can move faster than the speed of light with reference to us. However, at their location they can't move faster than the speed of light.

That's because they can move with space  with an apparent speed greater than C but they can not move through space faster than C

Which is what I have been saying all along.
The only way you can have things travel faster than light is for space to be expanding.

The problem here is that you posted someone else's words from Quora, but you did not understand them.

Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 16:47:31
We can't move on until you understand this subject.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 17:14:51
in LIGO that they measure a specific object.

But what they measure is how far apart the two mirrors are.
And the gap between two mirrors is space, and that's what they measure.
It is important in science to be able to count to at least two.

Yes, what they measure is how far apart the two mirrors are which means what is the distance between those two objects.
Therefore, the gap between two mirrors is not the space frame itself but it is just the distance between the two objects, and that's what they measure.

There are plans to build more sensitive gravity wave detectors where the mirrors are on separate satellites.
That makes it even more obvious that (1) they are measuring the space between the things and (2) you are wrong.

You are wrong
They only can measure the distance between the two objects (not the space frame itself).

That's because they can move with space  with an apparent speed greater than C but they can not move through space faster than C

Based on the change in the distance per time our scientists can calculate the velocity between those two objects.
You call it "apparent speed" but that is the real velocity between the two objects and it is greater than the speed of light.
So this is all.
You can claim that it is due to the space expansion and I can claim that it is due to galaxies expansion as in reality you know by 100% that we can only measure the distance between the objects and not the space frame itself.
You can claim that the space itself is expanding and I claim that the space is not moving even by 0.00....0001 Pico mm per trillion over trillion years.
You can explain this observation by BBT and I can explain it by theory D.
Therefore, the apparent speed is actually the real speed and it is greater than the speed of light

 

Which is what I have been saying all along.
The only way you can have things travel faster than light is for space to be expanding.

Which is what I have been saying all along.
The only way you can have things travel faster than light is when they are far away at different space-time while in each local space-time nothing can move faster than the speed of light.
Therefore, there is no need to ask the space to expand; the movement of the galaxies based on theory D is a perfect explanation for this real observation.
Please let the space do what it should do - Stay fix forever and ever!

There is also big advantage in theory D.
The space expansion imagination is Ok for far away galaxies but it can't explain the activity at relatively close distance (as the MW and Andromeda)
Therefore, you need some help from another theory that is called gravity.
However, if gravity works to explain the idea that Andromeda is moving in the direction of the MY while they are still quite far away, why that gravity doesn't pull triangulum galaxy in the direction of Andromeda while they are so close together?
Are you going to invent third theory for that?
In theory D, based on the same theory/Idea we can explain the activity at the local aria and at the ultra far away aria.
Therefore, in BBT when you use one imagination (space expansion), you need a help from other imagination (gravity) and then try to find one more imagination for galaxies that refuse to work according to your two imaginations.
In theory D the same simple explanation for "local" works perfectly also for "ultra far away" location.
That is the meaning of real science!

[Bored chemist]

Therefore, the gap between two mirrors is not the space frame itself but it is just the distance between the two objects, and that's what they measure.

Then why does it change?

You are wrong
They only can measure the distance between the two objects (not the space frame itself).

It's not that I am wrong.
It isn't my idea.
However, the people working on LIGO , who are the people who actually understand this (i.e. not you), say they are measuring space.


You failed (as I expected) to understand my other point, so here it is again.

You missed the point.
The "message" about the galaxy was carried here on a wave traveling in spacetime.
That wave is an expansion of space in a similar way to sound being compression and expansion of air.
Ligo detects that expansion and contraction of space.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Quote from: Dave Lev on Today at 05:07:49
Therefore, the gap between two mirrors is not the space frame itself but it is just the distance between the two objects, and that's what they measure.

Then why does it change?

The distance between the the two objects is increasing due to the expansion in the galaxies.
Once you would open to understand that theory, you would verify how simple it is.
 

It's not that I am wrong.
It isn't my idea.
However, the people working on LIGO , who are the people who actually understand this (i.e. not you), say they are measuring space.

No. They don't even claim that they measure the space itself
it is stated:
https://www.ligo.org/science/Publication-GW170817Hubble/

"We have used the gravitational-wave source GW170817, which was detected by Advanced LIGO and Advanced Virgo on August 17 2017, to make the first-ever standard siren measurement of the Hubble constant."
Therefore, Ligo proves that this object is correlated to the Hubble constant, but it doesn't prove that the space itself is expanding.

So, they actually verified by those two objects in space that the Hubble constant is correct.
Therefore, the do not claim that they measure the space itself and please remember that even Hubble didn't observe the space expansion. They all can just observe the galaxies/objects expansions.

It is all about objects and Only about objects.

You missed the point.
The "message" about the galaxy was carried here on a wave traveling in space-time.
That wave is an expansion of space in a similar way to sound being compression and expansion of air.
Ligo detects that expansion and contraction of space.

This is wrong.
They do not even try to claim that the detected gravity wave carries the galaxies with it.
It is only your pure imagination.
Please read again the article.
If you speak about a wave, let's compare it to the sea wave:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=80881.new;topicseen#quickreply
Ocean waves transport energy over vast distances, although the water itself does not move, except up and down.

Therefore as the ocean wave doesn't move the water itself, the gravity wave also can't move any galaxy in space.

Is it clear to you by now?

You have also totally ignore my message about the activity of the galaxies in relatively short distance.

There is also big advantage in theory D.
The space expansion imagination is Ok for far away galaxies but it can't explain the activity at relatively close distance (as the MW and Andromeda)
Therefore, you need some help from another theory that is called gravity.
However, if gravity works to explain the idea that Andromeda is moving in the direction of the MY while they are still quite far away, why that gravity doesn't pull triangulum galaxy in the direction of Andromeda while they are so close together?
Are you going to invent third theory for that?
In theory D, based on the same theory/Idea we can explain the activity at the local aria and at the ultra far away aria.
Therefore, in BBT when you use one imagination (space expansion), you need a help from other imagination (gravity) and then try to find one more imagination for galaxies that refuse to work according to your two imaginations.
In theory D the same simple explanation for "local" works perfectly also for "ultra far away" location.
That is the meaning of real science!

Can you please explain why Andromeda is moving in the direction of the MW?
As it is moving today directly in our direction, can you estimate what was the distance to the MW 5 By ago or 12.5 By ago?

Can you please explain why Triangulum that is located so close to the Andromeda, isn't falling into that supper massive galaxy?

Can you explain the Hydrogen Bridge between triangulum and Andromeda?

Sorry, You and all your 100,000 BBT scientists don't have a basic clue how our Universe really works.
You all are so wise and knowledgeable.
However, you all have decided to block your wisdom with that BBT.
If you would be able one day to clear your mind from that nonsense, you would understand how our Universe works on just one simple rule - new pair creation (real positive pair)!
That's all you need for our entire infinite Universe
No more imagination:
No space expansion
No gravity wave that carries galaxies
No need for gravity to backup the expansion - locally
No dark energy
No dark matter
No ....
No density wave.

Just one simple rule - Real pair creation by BH
By that simple ONE rule you get our infinite Universe with all is features up to the last one.

[Bored chemist]

They do not even try to claim that the detected gravity wave carries the galaxies with it.

Nobody said they did.
Why did you even say that?

[Bored chemist]

Ocean waves transport energy over vast distances, although the water itself does not move, except up and down.

So, the water moves.
And yet you are using this as a reason to say the water does not move.
Do you realise how silly that is?

[Bored chemist]

No. They don't even claim that they measure the space itself
it is stated:
https://www.ligo.org/science/Publication-GW170817Hubble/
Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 14:51:20
"We have used the gravitational-wave source GW170817, which was detected by Advanced LIGO and Advanced Virgo on August 17 2017, to make the first-ever standard siren measurement of the Hubble constant."
Therefore, Ligo proves that this object is correlated to the Hubble constant, but it doesn't prove that the space itself is expanding.
So, they actually verified by those two objects in space that the Hubble constant is correct.
Therefore, the do not claim that they measure the space itself and please remember that even Hubble didn't observe the space expansion. They all can just observe the galaxies/objects expansions.

You have not understood the point.
If I say I use a ruler to measure the height of a plant and I find that it grows more in the day than in the night, do you think that the ruler measures light?

There is only one thing which LIGO really measures, and that's gravity waves.
So, if someone is using the LIGO data to measure anything, they are using LIGO to measure gravity waves.
Gravity waves are an expansion and contraction of space.
So, anything to do with the LIGO data is a proof of the expansion of space.

Quote from: Bored chemist on Yesterday at 17:17:54
Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 16:47:31
We can't move on until you understand this subject.

[Bored chemist]

Just one simple rule - Real pair creation by BH

But we know that is impossible.

Quote from: Bored chemist on Yesterday at 17:17:54
Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 16:47:31
We can't move on until you understand this subject.

[Kryptid]

I'm still waiting for an explanation, based on observations and measurements, for how the first black hole formed.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

There is only one thing which LIGO really measures, and that's gravity waves.
So, if someone is using the LIGO data to measure anything, they are using LIGO to measure gravity waves.
Gravity waves are an expansion and contraction of space.
So, anything to do with the LIGO data is a proof of the expansion of space.

Ligo is all about gravity wave due to twin BHs that spiral inwards and merge.
That merging activity sets contraction in a very local point in space.
So, it is all about how the matter (as twin BHs) affects its local point in space and not how the expansion affects those twin BHs.

So, please don't claim again that the gravity wave is an indication for the space expansion.
Please answer the following:

Can you please explain why Andromeda is moving in the direction of the MW?
As it is moving today directly in our direction, can you estimate what was the distance to the MW 5 By ago or 12.5 By ago?
Can you please explain why Triangulum that is located so close to the Andromeda, isn't falling into that supper massive galaxy?
Can you please explain the Hydrogen Bridge between triangulum and Andromeda?

I'm still waiting for an explanation,

Soon
Promise

[Bored chemist]

So, please don't claim again that the gravity wave is an indication for the space expansion.

Gravity waves are an expansion and contraction in space.
They are real.
They show that you are wrong because you said

I would never even agree ith that space expansion imagination.

and

So, the space was always there in our infinite 3D Universe.
You can't move it, you can't expand it.

Quote from: Bored chemist on Yesterday at 22:11:40
Quote from: Bored chemist on Yesterday at 17:17:54
Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 16:47:31
We can't move on until you understand this subject.

Quote from: Kryptid on Today at 14:44:33
I'm still waiting for an explanation,
Soon
Promise

What are you waiting for?

[Dave Lev (OP)]

how the first black hole formed.

Scientists think that the vacuum is filled with virtual particles corresponding to every type of actual subatomic particle that has been discovered. For example, they think that the vacuum includes incredibly short-lived virtual electrons, and incredibly short-lived virtual quarks (because both electrons and quarks are known types of subatomic particles).
For every 10,000,000,000 anti-matter particles there are 10,000,000,001 matter particles, an asymmetry of 1 particle out of 10 billion. And the endresult is that every 10 billion matter/anti-matter pairs annihilated each other leaving behind 1 matter particle and 10 billion photons.
After infinite time, our infinite universe was already full with infinite particles due to VE.
Over time, gravity slowly shepherded the densest regions of particles into compact clouds, which ultimately collapsed to form the first BH.
Those BHs didn't spin. Therefore, they couldn't generate EM radiation.
Over time twin BHs spirals inwards around each other and merge.
At that moment we get gravity wave but also a new BH that can generate EM radiation as it spin at high velocity.
That BH would generate new particle pair and will be the father and mother of the matter in our entire infinite Universe.

Source:
http://www.markmahin.com/vacuum.html
https://astronomy.com/news/2018/03/fingerprinting-the-very-first-stars
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec26.html

[Bored chemist]

Those BHs didn't spin. Therefore, they couldn't generate EM radiation.

I explained earlier why this is wrong.
The simple reason is that in your idea , along with the BH, there are lots of other parties.
They do have charge so, when they get pulled by the gravity of a BH they grenade EM radiation.
There's also the fact that, along with

both electrons and quarks

You get photons as part of  the vacuum energy.

So you still have to explain why, if your mechanism works, the universe is not full of BH.

Essentially, we know you are wrong.

[Bored chemist]

For every 10,000,000,000 anti-matter particles there are 10,000,000,001 matter particles, an asymmetry of 1 particle out of 10 billion.

The only evidence for this is the BBT.
You can't use it to show that the BBT is wrong.