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  4. Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
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Accepting magic ? why not religion ?

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Offline Yahya A.Sharif (OP)

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #20 on: 01/12/2020 21:02:54 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 30/11/2020 09:04:36
Quote from: Yahya A.Sharif on 29/11/2020 23:45:32
The floating man will not tell what he is doing , but the scientific explanation in the link is impossible The person appears to raise no weight. He keeps his body shape.And he does it for a long time.
Here is a man doing essentially the same thing.
He explains how the "trick" is done,.
It is an illusion.

https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20170630-silver-man-secret/
This is the video of the man in your link and he does it. he simply uses support for his body which is logical.The man in my link can not put any hidden support .
This exact one is a trick version for the real magic man  https://brightside.me/wonder-curiosities/10-secrets-behind-the-most-famous-magic-tricks-revealed-364360/
« Last Edit: 01/12/2020 21:08:35 by Yahya A.Sharif »
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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #21 on: 01/12/2020 21:04:50 »
Quote from: Yahya A.Sharif on 01/12/2020 21:02:54
.The man in my link can not put any hidden support .
Yes he does.
We know this because magic is not real.
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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #22 on: 01/12/2020 21:08:59 »

* carpet.jpg (97.13 kB . 666x280 - viewed 930 times)If he is using magic, what is the little carpet for?
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Offline Yahya A.Sharif (OP)

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #23 on: 01/12/2020 21:24:49 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/12/2020 21:08:59

* carpet.jpg (97.13 kB . 666x280 - viewed 930 times)If he is using magic, what is the little carpet for?
He uses his stick for balance, and as you imply he uses the disk for balance as well .Anyway still it is not logical to keep his shape  for a long time.
« Last Edit: 01/12/2020 21:29:47 by Yahya A.Sharif »
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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #24 on: 01/12/2020 21:45:44 »
Quote from: Yahya A.Sharif on 01/12/2020 21:24:49
Anyway still it is not logical to keep his shape  for a long time.
Why not?
He's sat on a frame.
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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #25 on: 02/12/2020 00:06:50 »
Quote from: Yahya A.Sharif on 01/12/2020 21:24:49
Anyway still it is not logical to keep his shape  for a long time.

It sounds like you are still going with the argument from ignorance. You are basically saying, "If I can't figure out how he did it logically through non-magical means, then he must have used magic to do it".
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Offline Yahya A.Sharif (OP)

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #26 on: 02/12/2020 10:27:15 »
Quote from: Kryptid on 02/12/2020 00:06:50
It sounds like you are still going with the argument from ignorance. You are basically saying, "If I can't figure out how he did it logically through non-magical means, then he must have used magic to do it".
It is not supposed to be "non-magical" means it is supposed to be unknown means.
If I can not know how he did it through any means then he uses what I can call it magic.

« Last Edit: 02/12/2020 11:56:45 by Yahya A.Sharif »
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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #27 on: 02/12/2020 13:03:57 »
Quote from: Yahya A.Sharif on 02/12/2020 10:27:15
If I can not know how he did it through any means then he uses what I can call it magic.
That approach does not make sense.
So, you think your computer works by magic?
Or are you able to say exactly how all the components in it work?
Until someone taught you to read and write, reading and writing were magic, but now that you know how they are done they are not magic anymore.

If I know how to build a laser and you don't; is it magic or not?

If you got there early in the morning and saw the Silver Man setting up, you would know how it works so it would not be magic.
But if you got there later it would be magic because you would not know how it was done.
But then you saw that youtube video, and now it isn't magic any more.

Your use of the word magic seems rather arbitrary.

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Offline Yahya A.Sharif (OP)

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #28 on: 02/12/2020 13:41:32 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/12/2020 13:03:57
Quote from: Yahya A.Sharif on 02/12/2020 10:27:15
If I can not know how he did it through any means then he uses what I can call it magic.
That approach does not make sense.
So, you think your computer works by magic?
I formulate the sentence wrong Kryptid says before I discovered it I already take it as non-magical but what I was trying to say is, before I discovered  it , it  is unknown , after Discovered it I can describe it  as magic.

 
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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #29 on: 02/12/2020 13:44:42 »
Quote from: Yahya A.Sharif on 02/12/2020 13:41:32
after Discovered it I can describe it  as magic.
After you discover that he is sitting on a metal  seat, you can call it magic.
That makes even less sense.

Why do you not think that the man in the video you posted is not sitting on a metal frame?

Metal frames (and people pretending to float in the air) are common.
Magic is so rare that we have no evidence that it exists.

Why do you choose the impossibly rare event, rather than the common one?
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Offline charles1948

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #30 on: 02/12/2020 18:44:59 »
"Magic"  -  encompasses all the possible operations of the Universe.
"Science"  -  restricts itself to operations that we can, with our present knowledge, rationalise.
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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #31 on: 02/12/2020 19:00:53 »
Quote from: charles1948 on 02/12/2020 18:44:59
"Magic"  -  encompasses all the possible operations of the Universe.
I think it encomapasses the impossible ones; that's the point.
You can't turn a pumpkin into a carriage.
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Offline charles1948

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #32 on: 02/12/2020 20:56:51 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/12/2020 19:00:53
Quote from: charles1948 on 02/12/2020 18:44:59
"Magic"  -  encompasses all the possible operations of the Universe.
I think it encomapasses the impossible ones; that's the point.
You can't turn a pumpkin into a carriage.

Pumpkins and carriages are both composed of atoms.  If we gain enough control of these atoms, through Science, there seems no theoretical reason for a pumpkin/carriage transformation to be impossible, don't you think?
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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #33 on: 02/12/2020 21:06:41 »
Quote from: charles1948 on 02/12/2020 20:56:51
, through Science, there seems no theoretical reason for a pumpkin/carriage transformation to be impossible, don't you think?
There's a really obvious one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass

That's the point.
Magic lets you ignore reality, and that's what the OP is doing when he says the man couldn't be sitting on a frame.
Also if
Quote from: charles1948 on 02/12/2020 18:44:59
"Magic"  -  encompasses all the possible operations of the Universe.
then the operation of making bread into toast is magic.
That doesn't seem right tome.
« Last Edit: 02/12/2020 21:09:18 by Bored chemist »
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Offline Yahya A.Sharif (OP)

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #34 on: 02/12/2020 22:36:15 »
The universe  is built by an intelligent creator.The creation is well  designed. This is what religious scientists claim.No person observed the big bang ,it didn't happen , but the BBT is how physics works.God built the universe , even though according to science the universe comes from a big bang  but God " magician " did it  in 6 days.
The floating man needs force against gravity " physics behind universe creation " he floats without force " Without big bang " he did it " universe creation " He is the person who did it " God"
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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #35 on: 02/12/2020 23:33:50 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/12/2020 21:06:41
Quote from: charles1948 on 02/12/2020 20:56:51
, through Science, there seems no theoretical reason for a pumpkin/carriage transformation to be impossible, don't you think?
There's a really obvious one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass

That's the point.
Magic lets you ignore reality, and that's what the OP is doing when he says the man couldn't be sitting on a frame.
Also if
Quote from: charles1948 on 02/12/2020 18:44:59
"Magic"  -  encompasses all the possible operations of the Universe.
then the operation of making bread into toast is magic.
That doesn't seem right tome.
Boredchemist,

Thanks for your post.  On the subject of the pumpkin/carriage transformation, several interesting questions could be raised, including the relative sizes of pumpkins and carriages in a Lilliputian world;  also why you assume that "Conservation of Energy" is an inviolable law.  But leave that for another time!
 
As regards the transformation of bread into toast, it would indeed seem a Magical process to both of us, if we were  Pliocene anthropoids with nascent understanding, but no usage of fire. 

Which of course, we're not.  I think.

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #36 on: 03/12/2020 09:02:44 »
Quote from: charles1948 on 02/12/2020 23:33:50
also why you assume that "Conservation of Energy" is an inviolable law.  But leave that for another time!
Why leave it?
The answer is quick enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether%27s_theorem

Quote from: charles1948 on 02/12/2020 23:33:50
it would indeed seem a Magical process
The important word there is "seem".
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #37 on: 04/12/2020 04:16:30 »
There are a lot to learn from this video about James Randi which is closely related to this topic.
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Offline Salik Imran

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #38 on: 05/12/2020 14:30:47 »
In my opinion, I believe that "magic" and "tricks" are not "magic"/supernatural (if you get what I mean). There is nothing special about these things. It is all science and lots of maths. For example, if you are doing one of the "I know your card but I wasn't looking" tricks, you will need to use lots of maths (I think) to pick the right card. The only interesting thing about magic is that it is science that "tricks" people (or should I say science that tricks other peoples' conciseness/mind). Tell me if I am wrong.
Also,
Quote from: puppypower on 01/12/2020 11:52:33
The main difference is sight is more connected the ego and the conscious mind, while the inner vision and intuition is the gateway to the inner self and the unconscious mind.
Sounds like a rude version of Professor Trelawny from Harry Potter...
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Accepting magic ? why not religion ?
« Reply #39 on: 16/12/2020 06:47:13 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/12/2020 04:16:30
There are a lot to learn from this video about James Randi which is closely related to this topic.
My point in bringing this video was, if there were any legit supernatural power posessed by anyone, they could have won the million dollar challenge offered by James Randi. The fact that there were no winner tells us to confidently reject supernatural claims, especially when they are performed to collect money or other financial gains.
I enjoy watching magic tricks for fun, and learned some of them. It reminds us that we are vulnerable to deceptions whether intentional or not, and having critical thinking is necessary to protect us from them.
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