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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  4. Is there a better way to explain light?
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Is there a better way to explain light?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #300 on: 16/12/2022 09:15:45 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/12/2022 08:54:34
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 01:18:05
Considering how many misconceptions we can find online,
Like the idea that a meaningful amount of light will go through a steel ball bearing...
Isn't it your idea?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #301 on: 16/12/2022 09:19:39 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 01:18:05
I found no reference in quantum mechanics textbooks which decisively state the errors of those principles
Precisely because they don't describe quantum events!
For the umpteenth time: we need two distinct mathematical models of electromagnetic phenomena. We use continuous wave equations to describe propagation, and quantum mechanics to explain microscopic interactions with matter. So far, one or other always works, and the experimental result tells you which one to use. 
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #302 on: 16/12/2022 10:41:12 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/12/2022 09:19:39
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 01:18:05
I found no reference in quantum mechanics textbooks which decisively state the errors of those principles
Precisely because they don't describe quantum events!
For the umpteenth time: we need two distinct mathematical models of electromagnetic phenomena. We use continuous wave equations to describe propagation, and quantum mechanics to explain microscopic interactions with matter. So far, one or other always works, and the experimental result tells you which one to use. 
Prior to Newton, heavenly bodies were thought to follow a different set of rules compared to terrestrial objects.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #303 on: 16/12/2022 11:12:22 »
And now we realise that scientific "laws" are not prescriptive rules but mathematical models that have proved to be very robust.

Consequently we are happy to use Newton's "laws"  to build cars and Einstein's "laws" for the GPS system that tells us where we are. Likewise two very effective models for electromagnetic radiation.

Nobody ever claimed physics was easy or obvious (Eddington said the student of physics must become accustomed to having his common sense violated five times before breakfast)  but unlike philosophy or religion, which are deliberately obfuscatory, it works.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #304 on: 16/12/2022 13:20:23 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 09:15:45
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/12/2022 08:54:34
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 01:18:05
Considering how many misconceptions we can find online,
Like the idea that a meaningful amount of light will go through a steel ball bearing...
Isn't it your idea?
No.
Please try to pay attention.
It's the exact opposite of what I said.
Do you remember , this is what I posted
Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/12/2022 08:33:54
Most people consider a ball bearing to be perfectly opaque to visible light.

But you tried to say that the light goes through the metal

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/12/2022 22:18:17
Steel is not perfectly opaque in visible light spectrum. It has penetration depth longer than the wavelength.


And I pointed out that , if that's really what you believe, you can easily prove it.

Set up the experiment with white light and a copper, brass or gold bead.
If the light goes through the metal then you will get a coloured spot, not a white one.


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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #305 on: 16/12/2022 13:21:15 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 10:41:12
Prior to Newton, heavenly bodies were thought to follow a different set of rules compared to terrestrial objects.
Prior to Newton they were not using science; but faith.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #306 on: 16/12/2022 14:49:29 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/12/2022 13:20:23
And I pointed out that , if that's really what you believe, you can easily prove it.
It's easily deduced from my previous video, especially when using a cutter knife made of steel. How do you think the light can go to the area behind the knife?
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2016 09:39:50
The rest of the video can be watched here
video #2 Edge shapes effect
video #3 Diffraction by transparent objects
video #4 Non-diffractive Obstacle

It seems like you haven't watched my video below.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 20/04/2017 03:20:18
Here is a new video demonstrating diffraction of microwave using multilayer metal grating, which is a meta-material.

Same as diffraction by normal material, it only occurs when the meta-material is adequately transparent to the microwave.
« Last Edit: 16/12/2022 14:51:51 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #307 on: 16/12/2022 15:26:42 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/12/2022 09:19:39
We use continuous wave equations to describe propagation, and quantum mechanics to explain microscopic interactions with matter.
What does quantum mechanics tell you about a single photon? Does it have a single frequency?  Does it have a finite wave number?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #308 on: 16/12/2022 15:41:08 »
For those who doesn't know that metals are partially transparent in visible light spectrum.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/12/2022 08:36:38
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/12/2022 02:28:30
Quote from: Bored chemist on 07/12/2022 12:44:35
But any illuminated edge diffracts.
Not necessarily. I've shown non-diffractive edge in experiments using total internal reflection in visible light. I 've also shown using a metal plate and microwave.
From my experience, diffraction requires partial opacity/transparency. Perfectly opaque objects, as well as perfectly transparent objects don't produce observable diffraction.

In visible light range of frequency, metals are partially transparent. This video from 4:20 time stamp shows this clearly.

Most published experiments involving diffraction of light, including double slit experiments often ignore this.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #309 on: 16/12/2022 15:52:15 »
Quote
Optical phonons are out-of-phase movements of the atoms in the lattice, one atom moving to the left, and its neighbor to the right. This occurs if the lattice basis consists of two or more atoms. They are called optical because in ionic crystals, such as sodium chloride, fluctuations in displacement create an electrical polarization that couples to the electromagnetic field.[2] Hence, they can be excited by infrared radiation, the electric field of the light will move every positive sodium ion in the direction of the field, and every negative chloride ion in the other direction, causing the crystal to vibrate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon
I think it's possible to explain how light seem to propagate through the edge of a ball as optical phonon. In visible light, the vibrating particles are the electron, instead of ion.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #310 on: 16/12/2022 17:07:20 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 14:49:29
It's easily deduced from my previous video, especially when using a cutter knife made of steel. How do you think the light can go to the area behind the knife?
By going through the air.
Was that really a serious question?
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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #311 on: 16/12/2022 17:10:55 »
Incidentally, you need to be very careful with the "edges" of transparent objects.
The manufacturers generally polish the edges to give something curved (so it isn't dangerously sharp).
But a curved bit of glass is a lens and will produce changes of the light beam that you might not have considered.
Can you explain how you have allowed for this factor?
« Last Edit: 16/12/2022 17:23:38 by Bored chemist »
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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #312 on: 16/12/2022 17:18:58 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 15:41:08
For those who doesn't know that metals are partially transparent in visible light spectrum.
Who doesn't know that?
I have seen through gold leaf.
A cheap mirror will show the effect just fine if you clean the paint off the back.
You  seem not to have noticed some of my words.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/12/2022 08:33:54
Most people consider a ball bearing to be perfectly opaque to visible light.

I know it isn't strictly true. But it's very close to true.
And we know that the light that forms the bright spot at the centre of a shadow can't be due to light going through the metal.
So we know that it's near enough to being true.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #313 on: 16/12/2022 17:21:26 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 15:52:15
I think it's possible to explain how light seem to propagate through the edge of a ball as optical phonon.
Yes, you can; by using science.
You discover that light that goes through gold leaf is green.
That's been known for centuries.
And, if the light that caused the bright dot in the centre of a shadow of a gold ball was green, you would have a point.
But it isn't.

So we know that the light is not going through the metal.

So, why are you still talking about something we know is wrong?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #314 on: 16/12/2022 22:08:31 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/12/2022 17:21:26
You discover that light that goes through gold leaf is green.
Did I?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #315 on: 16/12/2022 22:11:16 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/12/2022 17:07:20
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 14:49:29
It's easily deduced from my previous video, especially when using a cutter knife made of steel. How do you think the light can go to the area behind the knife?
By going through the air.
Was that really a serious question?
Is vacuum can be used?
If the knife is removed, will the light still go to that area?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #316 on: 16/12/2022 22:14:30 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/12/2022 17:10:55
Incidentally, you need to be very careful with the "edges" of transparent objects.
The manufacturers generally polish the edges to give something curved (so it isn't dangerously sharp).
But a curved bit of glass is a lens and will produce changes of the light beam that you might not have considered.
Can you explain how you have allowed for this factor?
What kind of changes do I need to consider?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #317 on: 16/12/2022 22:17:58 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/12/2022 17:18:58
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/12/2022 15:41:08
For those who doesn't know that metals are partially transparent in visible light spectrum.
Who doesn't know that?
I have seen through gold leaf.
A cheap mirror will show the effect just fine if you clean the paint off the back.
You  seem not to have noticed some of my words.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/12/2022 08:33:54
Most people consider a ball bearing to be perfectly opaque to visible light.

I know it isn't strictly true. But it's very close to true.
And we know that the light that forms the bright spot at the centre of a shadow can't be due to light going through the metal.
So we know that it's near enough to being true.

If the ball is replaced by a cylinder, what will be shown on the screen?
What if it's replaced by a box?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #318 on: 16/12/2022 22:25:21 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/12/2022 17:21:26
So we know that the light is not going through the metal.
So, you still don't know it, yet.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #319 on: 16/12/2022 22:38:49 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/10/2021 07:48:33
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/10/2021 15:06:06

The expected result in reply #76 wouldn't make sense according to conservation of energy, if the transmitter actually sends a single photon at a time, which then triggers the detectors.
But it makes sense if the transmitter transmit the dim light continuously, and trigger the detectors after they accumulate adequate amount of energy. That's why temperature of the detectors affects the detection rate.
The main difference between my hypothesis and photon model is where the randomization occurs.

My hypothesis asserts that the randomization occurs at the detector. Light energy received by the detector will either be reflected, absorbed, or transmitted. Absorbed light will be transformed into other forms of energy, like heat, light at different frequency, chemical reaction, electron ejection, etc. which can be sensed by detector.

In photon model, randomization occurs at the transmitter, as well as beam splitter. Many pop-sci articles presented that the event when  a detector is triggered simply means a photon has been captured, with no room for uncertainty. AFAIK, it is affected by environmental condition, such as temperature, cosmic ray, interference of electromagnetic wave, and electrical potential applied to the detector.
Just in case someone hasn't known what my model of light is, or has already forgotten about it.
So far, it can be used to explain various experimental results that I've done.
One of the most convincing results is that it allows me to design and correctly predict the results of disjointed twin polarizers and conjoined twin polarizers experiments in microwave frequency.

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 23/11/2020 07:29:54
Here is another video investigating the effect of twin polarizer.
It shows the effect of double polarizer when they are close to each other but are still separated electrically. The last part shows the polarisation of microwave coming out from the last polarizer.

The next video will show the effect of double polarizer when they are close to each other and electrically connected, so stay tuned.

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/11/2020 06:43:06
And here are videos demonstrating conjoined twin polarizer

In the end of the experiment, it's shown that rotating the receiver can make the reading down to 0, which means that the microwave is linearly polarized instead of eliptical or circularly polarized.
« Last Edit: 16/12/2022 22:43:32 by hamdani yusuf »
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