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Whose second?
If you want to use a 4 ly distance and a velocity of 0.999c, then the AC clock reads 3.996 yrs when ES leaves Earth according to ES,
Quote from: Janus on 24/08/2023 20:20:04If you want to use a 4 ly distance and a velocity of 0.999c, then the AC clock reads 3.996 yrs when ES leaves Earth according to ES,Your statement seems to imply that earth travelling twin can see events on Alpha Centauri in the future which midway observer hasn't been able to observe yet. Cmiiw.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/08/2023 15:18:55Quote from: Janus on 24/08/2023 20:20:04If you want to use a 4 ly distance and a velocity of 0.999c, then the AC clock reads 3.996 yrs when ES leaves Earth according to ES,Your statement seems to imply that earth travelling twin can see events on Alpha Centauri in the future which midway observer hasn't been able to observe yet. Cmiiw. Pay attention. I already pointed out that what he would SEE would be the same thing as what someone on Earth would see at that moment: Events that occurred at AC 4.3 years ( by the AC time measure) prior to the AC ship leaving.The Earth observer sees this and uses it to work that the AC ship is also leaving at that moment in the Earth-AC rest. Hwe can do this either by being aware of the setup with the signal originating at the midpoint, or waiting 4.3 years until he sees the AC ship leave, and working backwards.The Earth ship, moving at 0.8c relative to both the Earth and AC, and seeing that same light has to come to a different conclusion: That in order to be seeing this light from AC at this moment, the clock at AC has to already be reading 3.44 yr past when the AC ship left at that same moment. Grasping the relativity of simultaneity is key to understanding SR. It really is the first thing you need to come to grips with before proceeding to anything else.
the AC clock reads 3.996 yrs when ES leaves Earth according to ES,
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/08/2023 06:05:34What's the reading of the travelling clock by midway observer, one second before passing the mid point, and one second after passing it?
What's the reading of the travelling clock by midway observer, one second before passing the mid point, and one second after passing it?
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/08/2023 08:08:46Whose second? In my early scenario, everything is measured by the midway observer, because it's where the symmetry is guaranteed.
Quote from: Janus on 25/08/2023 16:09:41Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/08/2023 15:18:55Quote from: Janus on 24/08/2023 20:20:04If you want to use a 4 ly distance and a velocity of 0.999c, then the AC clock reads 3.996 yrs when ES leaves Earth according to ES,Your statement seems to imply that earth travelling twin can see events on Alpha Centauri in the future which midway observer hasn't been able to observe yet. Cmiiw. Pay attention. I already pointed out that what he would SEE would be the same thing as what someone on Earth would see at that moment: Events that occurred at AC 4.3 years ( by the AC time measure) prior to the AC ship leaving.The Earth observer sees this and uses it to work that the AC ship is also leaving at that moment in the Earth-AC rest. Hwe can do this either by being aware of the setup with the signal originating at the midpoint, or waiting 4.3 years until he sees the AC ship leave, and working backwards.The Earth ship, moving at 0.8c relative to both the Earth and AC, and seeing that same light has to come to a different conclusion: That in order to be seeing this light from AC at this moment, the clock at AC has to already be reading 3.44 yr past when the AC ship left at that same moment. Grasping the relativity of simultaneity is key to understanding SR. It really is the first thing you need to come to grips with before proceeding to anything else.Perhaps you can avoid confusion by using more consistent and succinct words. You can rewrite this statement, Quote from: Janus on 24/08/2023 20:20:04 the AC clock reads 3.996 yrs when ES leaves Earth according to ES, tothe AC clock reads 3.996 yrs when ES leaves Earth as calculated by ES, to distinguish the interpretation that it were what's actually read/seen by ES.
I don't think that my wording here is really at issue, as its meaning is quite clear when taken in context with what had been said earlier.
Since by this point of the thread I had already mentioned at least twice that ES would, at that moment, see the same thing as Earth would, I don't think that my wording here is really at issue, as its meaning is quite clear when taken in context with what had been said earlier.
Quote from: Janus on 26/08/2023 16:12:20I don't think that my wording here is really at issue, as its meaning is quite clear when taken in context with what had been said earlier.For some reason Hamdani likes to go over the same ground again and again, he's done that in many of his marathon threads.
Just in case you've missed to read this question.Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/08/2023 04:21:45Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/08/2023 06:05:34What's the reading of the travelling clock by midway observer, one second before passing the mid point, and one second after passing it?Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/08/2023 09:39:26Quote from: alancalverd on 25/08/2023 08:08:46Whose second? In my early scenario, everything is measured by the midway observer, because it's where the symmetry is guaranteed.
Maybe you can help him answer my question.
Quote from: Origin on 26/08/2023 17:09:43Quote from: Janus on 26/08/2023 16:12:20I don't think that my wording here is really at issue, as its meaning is quite clear when taken in context with what had been said earlier.For some reason Hamdani likes to go over the same ground again and again, he's done that in many of his marathon threads.Maybe you can help him answer my question. Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/08/2023 06:04:39Just in case you've missed to read this question.Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/08/2023 04:21:45Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/08/2023 06:05:34What's the reading of the travelling clock by midway observer, one second before passing the mid point, and one second after passing it?Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/08/2023 09:39:26Quote from: alancalverd on 25/08/2023 08:08:46Whose second? In my early scenario, everything is measured by the midway observer, because it's where the symmetry is guaranteed.
Let's start with the simplest frame of reference first, which is the midway observer. What will he observe when he meet both travelling twins? At that moment, what's shown by his own clock, and the clocks brought by the travelling twins?
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 05/09/2023 11:55:19Let's start with the simplest frame of reference first, which is the midway observer. What will he observe when he meet both travelling twins? At that moment, what's shown by his own clock, and the clocks brought by the travelling twins?Assuming the mid way point is exactly 2 ly and the twins acceleration was instantaneous:Twins speed 0.999c. From the frame of the observer at the mid point the elapsed time on the clocks would be:1. Mid point clock - 2.002 years2. Earth twins clock - 0.0894 yrs3. Alpha Centauri twin - 0.0894 yrs
Thanks for giving quantitative answers.How did you get those numbers?
Did you involve Doppler effect?
Do you think these represent the mainstream view of science community?
It makes me curious where did Janus get his Doppler effect and accumulation of time difference from.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/09/2023 14:45:29It makes me curious where did Janus get his Doppler effect and accumulation of time difference from.Janus definitely knows what he is talking about, however I don't know which of the many different questions he was answering. I believe that I correctly answered your specific question.
Since the discovery of the special theory of relativity in 1905 due to weird phenomena like time dilatation and length contraction, people started to find many possible paradoxes within the theory.The most famous of them all is the Twin paradox which is still discussed today. In this video, we take a look at what is really weird and paradoxical about this scenario and why this happens, and whether it can be solved purely within the special relativity framework or we need something more (like general relativity).
In summary, it says that the difference is due to equivalence principle.
The Twin Paradox: What is it Really All About