[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Carreerslut,

You have addressed Inclined therapy as a person would reading from the literature rather than from the thread. Inclined Therapy is the opposite way around to what you have suggested and I would agree that serious complications can follow prolonged head down tilt. in fact, the first post addresses this and referes to NASA paying youngsters handsmoely for remaining on a bed sloping head down.

If you find time, the thread does contain some interesting observations from people sleeping head up rather than head down.

Andrew

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Anyway, I've been sleeping INCLINED for 4 weeks tomorrow and when I went running tonight according to my hubby who was cycling along behind me, my calf vein was down the whole time until I got home and stopped running when it bulged again.  Some days it stays up longer than others and I have noticed it is worse in really warm weather.  It does stay flat for long periods of time.  It is always flat when I wake in bed in the morning but as soon as I get up it bulges for about an hour or so before lying flat.  Did you find that too?  Will it ultimately lie flat when I get up and stay flat all the time?

Hopefully Denise your veins will slowly but surely remain flat. If you check out my wifes vein picture you can see the effect of many years of Inclined Therapy on the Varicose vein, although the vein became flat and ceased to ache within 4 weeks it continued to improve. Although visible it is obvious the vein no longer bulges.

Thanks for the update

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Hi Andrew,

I created my third account with Yahoo today and it finally took! So I have set-up an account with Flickr and uploaded photos and video. I redid the bad video I took yesterday in better lighting and I was not holding the camera as I was taping myself so it was not too close which made for better video.

I am now trying to figure out how to upload to this site even though you will not see a difference yet, just getting ready for the future  []

If nothing turns up, you will know I had a problem. I will keep trying.

Maureen

Thanks Maureen.

If you click the preview tab below in between post and spell check it opens up the tools to add photographs and video

The best way to show a video is to upload it to Youtube and copy the link to it into your post, this way people can view it. Pictures is a little easier. You grab the direct link from Flicker or Photobucket etc and paste it into the post  between these two boxes and providing your link is clean and does not already contain these boxes it should work fine. You can check your post in preview mode.

This will be a great help for everyone, thank you.

Andrew

[Maureen]

Hi Andrew, Daryl, Alun006 and anyone that can help me with uploading photos!

I have spent days on Flickr and it seems that to view a photo the person has to have a Yahoo account. Then I opened up an account with Photobucket. I saw Andrew's and Alun006's photos there. It seems that when I invite someone to see a photo, the whole album is shown. I then created a separate album with two photos and it looks like a link to Photobucket is always shown. When you guys upload a photo, that is all we see. That is how I want to do it. Can anyone help me? I am ready to forget about the photos. I wonder if this is the reason we have not seen Denise's photos yet?

Maureen

[Denise]

Hi Maureen

I'm glad I'm not the only one!  I created a Photobucket account but can't get the photos into this thread!  I tried for ages then gave up

[alun006]

Hi Denise & Maureen

OPTION 1

I can add the pictures for you with your names at the top on one of my thread if that will help.

Just email me the photos with the information direct.

Option 2

Or if you have msn, you can add me and we can go through the process online together.

alun006

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Using the Image link from a photobucket account to show pictures in your post:

Choose the code that has the [ img ][ /img ] boxes either side from photobucket in the drop down box, click on this link titled img code in photobucket highlite it and right click while on the image code / link and click copy. Go to your post and right click in the window that contains your text, click paste. Job done

[Maureen]

Hi Andrew,

I followed your instructions and also varied them because I could not get it to work! However, my husband told me how it works in an e-mail is different than in a post to a website. So I tried what you said and it worked!

Denise, you were probably trying to send your photos in an e-mail to test it like I was and had the same problems.

Alun006, Thank you for offering to help me.

Here are two photos of my ankles. There is not much difference in the photos yet but I can see the difference. When a photo shows a significant difference, I will post again.





V Shape of fluid goes down past ankle bone to almost bottom of heel (both feet).




V Shape of fluid goes down past ankle bone to almost bottom of heel (both feet).


Maureen

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Congrats on your new found IT skills Maureen. Great job of the photographs by your husband

We could do with a system like the Kings shilling in a pint glass to pressgang a few more people into our study, so if you can think of anyone with varicose veins, leg ulcer, oedema and an open mind, please mention this study to them and ask them to consider joining us.

Andrew

[Unnaked Patient]

As my name indicates, I am merely just another patient, not a vascular scientist. Just stumbled upon this website while doing some web research on varicose veins. Does anyone have experience with double tilted beds, i.e., sleeping on belly with feet low towards one end of the bed and head lowered towards the other end of the bed? Or else, sleeping in supine position? Or would a double tilt be counter-indicative for problem veins located above the heart, as in shoulders, neck or temples?

 [?]

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

As my name indicates, I am merely just another patient, not a vascular scientist. Just stumbled upon this website while doing some web research on varicose veins. Does anyone have experience with double tilted beds, i.e., sleeping on belly with feet low towards one end of the bed and head lowered towards the other end of the bed? Or else, sleeping in supine position? Or would a double tilt be counter-indicative for problem veins located above the heart, as in shoulders, neck or temples?

 [?]

Professor Zamboni et al and Dr Franz Shelling are pioneers working on abnormal jugular and cerebrospinal veins that are swollen or varicose. Zamboni's paper on chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency in 100% of patients with multiple sclerosis is attracting a great deal of attention with regards to a stent surgical approach to alter the blockage and improve circulation which is thought to be causing a reflux or back flow of blood into the brain that is responsible for the plaques found in ms.

Inclined Therapy has already been shown to positively affect the bodily functions in several neurological conditions, including ms. Over a minimum of 4 months avoiding sleeping on a flat bed. Based on 15 years of research and independent reports from people trying I.T. it appears that the circulation improves in many cases without the need for surgery, which is the point being made in this thread about varicose veins and oedema no requiring surgery, which incidentally is destined to require more surgery over the years.

So the track record for sleeping inclined as opposed to sleeping flat is looking pretty conclusive. http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-6755-days0-orderasc-120.html

That said, experimenting with posture to target individual veins has been done for many years raising the legs and upper torso, bending the body in the middle as is the case with most electrically adjustable beds.

The problem with this approach is that the spine is continually under compression and so is the soft tissue under the pelvis, increasing the risk of pressure sores and at best only providing temporary relief from varicose veins and oedema.

I have mentioned before that an exception to the generally beneficial relief found from I.T. is when a person has a collapsed vein, generally injury related the partially already closed vein could close further when the bed is inclined. Whether this would affect your particular problem either way can only be based upon your careful monitoring of the vein/veins in question over time to see what the outcome maybe.

Sleeping prone or supine or indeed on either side should only marginally alter the situation either way on an inclined bed, but could significantly alter the swelling situation while on a flat bed.

I hope I have understood your question and have offered some useful advice.

Andrew

[Unnaked Patient]

Thanks, Andrew. Very helpful indeed. Blissfully unaware of what you advocate on this website,  I have taken to sleeping in one of these huge, overstuffed leather reclining chairs, since about a month or so. This lowers my feet at an angle similar to what you propose. Good for me feet and legs, while at the same time avoiding pressure damage. My issue is, what about the parts of the body above the heart. Would sleeping with both, feet and head, down be a beneficial solution, like in:

       /\ head
feet /         

This obviously at angles differently from what illustrated here. I am not the best artist, but willing to come up with any suitable construction.

Sleeping on a flat bed has become next to impossible for me, and your findings encourage me to actually discuss my situation with my physician. Unnaked as can be, have not done so yet, for fear he would recommend against my sleeping with feet lowered. I can now support my arguments for choice in sleeping arrangements with your research. The upper parts of my body still worry me.

I like your observations on salt concentrations in soil. We have irrigation zones where this occurs.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,


Dagmar.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Thanks, Andrew. Very helpful indeed. Blissfully unaware of what you advocate on this website,  I have taken to sleeping in one of these huge, overstuffed leather reclining chairs, since about a month or so. This lowers my feet at an angle similar to what you propose. Good for me feet and legs, while at the same time avoiding pressure damage. My issue is, what about the parts of the body above the heart. Would sleeping with both, feet and head, down be a beneficial solution, like in:

       /\ head
feet /         

This obviously at angles differently from what illustrated here. I am not the best artist, but willing to come up with any suitable construction.

Sleeping on a flat bed has become next to impossible for me, and your findings encourage me to actually discuss my situation with my physician. Unnaked as can be, have not done so yet, for fear he would recommend against my sleeping with feet lowered. I can now support my arguments for choice in sleeping arrangements with your research. The upper parts of my body still worry me.

I like your observations on salt concentrations in soil. We have irrigation zones where this occurs.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,


Dagmar.

Got it now, I think. Your posture suggestion is equivalent of hanging your legs over the edge of a bed while lowering the angle of the bed so you are tilted back.

According to the on gravity assisted circulation tracing the flow of solutes through the arteries in relation to posture and the location of the kidneys is very important in order to avoid salt build up and possible overload in the blood and lymphatic systems.

My wife and I experimented with head down posture and found that salts did not arrive in the urine in the same quantity as sleeping on an incline, in fact the urine produced over several days of sleeping head down at five degrees was near water density, while the urine produced on an inclined bed was much denser than urine produced sleeping horizontal or five degree head down, or that produced during normal daily activity, indicating that a detoxification of the whole body was taking place. With this in mind, replacing some of the excreted potassium salts might be prudent over many years.

People taking prescription drugs have found that they are either more effective sleeping inclined or their uptake is improved on an incline or that their body does not require quite as much as before the bed was tilted. This is mirrored by astronauts in micro-gravity (orbiting the Earth) where the drug dose requires increasing. Prolonged head down bed rest and prolonged flat bedrest are thought to mirror the detrimental effects of space travel and are used to induce many of the age related problems we will al eventually face, including muscular atrophy, osteporosis, arythmia, poor circulation, visual degeneration, etc etc.

In fact my wife and I both ended up with chronic diarrhoea as a result of head down tilt. This posture has also been used for obesity so is understood by the medical profession. I think The actor Marlon Brando was sleeping this way in order to lose weight.

With this in mind, I would be reluctant to sleep that way again for any length of time given the nausea, headache, diarrhoea and balance problems we experienced testing it.

If you do decide to go for it please let us know as I would be very interested to learn what happens.

Andrew

[Unnaked Patient]

Thanks for your informative comments. Will simply raise the head end of my bed to the suggested incline, in the hope, that this will let me enjoy my bedroom again. I did some reading on what I found on this site on ITB an MS, not for myself, but mostly for my doctor, as we live in a region evidencing an unusually high concentration of MS sufferers, affecting also some members of my extended family.

A lifelong wearer of high heeled shoes, is there anyone else, who feels uncomfortable on flat feet? My heels go on the moment I step out of bed (or chair for the time being). A pair of cowhide sling back clunkers is my favourite at this time. 3 1/2" or 9 1/2 cm high, very chunky, solid heels.

My doctor will recommend flat shoes of course. Nevertheless, I will have to unnake myself a bit and finally discuss this issue with him, to see what else can be done. At the medical clinic where I go, we some pretty progressive practitioners of medicine.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,

Dagmar.

[Unnaked Patient]

Hi Andrew:

It's a go. Will start experimenting with a suitable structure tonight, plus perhaps get some foam padding for my mattress. They advertise memory foam a lot here. Will see. If it can be arranged, my doc has agreed to take the before and after pictures. I just felt that this would provide more credibility than pictures taken by a medically unscientific, unnaked sufferer. Be patient, four weeks you all say.

Thanks again. Best,


Dagmar.

P.S. Although I asked my doctor specifically to take a good look at my feet while standing barefoot on the floor, high heels were never mentioned. Seems they are a 'no issue'.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Hi Dagmar and a big thankyou for joining our little experiment with posture for varicose veins and oedema.

Having the doctor take the photographs is going to prove very interesting. Hopefully your doctor will be able to offer a comment in a few weeks time.

The heels you mention, I have also thought about how and why people manage to walk in these. One would think that the discomfort would prove far too uncomfortable. But there might just be some additional boost to the circulation going on that affords prolonged use of them. This might also be why returning back to flat shoes becomes alien to someone using high heels.

We use a memory foam mattress, some people compain they they become too warm on a foam mattress but this does not appear to be the case on an inclined bed, although a friend of mine who has taken the angle to an extream did find she became too warm and she returned back to a coil sprung mattress. Her conditions is psoriasis btw, which probably affects the natural cooling of the skin. That said she is completely clear most of the time since tilting the bed and only shows 3 smal patches on elblows and name of back when she has some return of P. This is in direct contrast to her skin before tilting the bed, where she had considerable problems accompanied by joint problems due to the type of psoriasis she has.

Andrew

[Maureen]

Hi Dagmar,

I wore 3 1/2" high heels for over 35 years. I wore them all day at work but changed to flats when I got home. I always had a pull type feeling in my calves (as if there were a guy wire pulling tight in my calf muscles) and could not bend over on my hunkers even if you paid me. It did not stop me walking a lot, cycling, rebounding etc. Just any kind of stretching was impossible for me. Finally I went to a Massage Therapist that did a very slight sideway pull back and forth on my calves and although it felt like nothing was being done it worked amazingly well for me. I went for many treatments after that to keep flexible then stopped. That was over 6 years ago and I still have no problem with it. So it may be worth it for you to try massage. 

Maureen

[Unnaked Patient]

Foam should not cause me any problems then, a I am always on the cold side. I am almost totally marblized with the Raynaud's blue tinge, which instantly disappears when lying down. My ankles are in very good shape, my legs, although not lacking in prominent veins, are very muscular, tops of my feet are covered with distended veins, which will become barely visible when in my shoes and wearing my other standby, also a lifelong habit, a regular pair of nylons, only very lightly constrictive. I do pay attention to waistbands with these, as some manufacturers make their 'one size fits all' waistbands even too tight for me. I am a very small person, 5'4", far removed from any weight problems, and have always avoided tight clothing.

When first looking at your website, your claim that varicose veins can revert, did not seem outlandish at all to me. I have one instance on my body, where this occurred, but I do not know how. All that is left, is one tiny bluish spot, size of the letter 'o', and barely visible. Original length about an 1 1/2", located directly under my navel. The reason for conducting my most recent search on reversal, was exactly, to find the answer to my own observations. After all, there had to be other people who have experienced reversal, even though not working on it deliberately. What I found instead, is deliberation, quite an improvement over unintentional. I am not complaining.


Thanks, again. Best,

Dagmar.

[Unnaked Patient]

For Maureen: Thanks for your input. My heels go on the morning, and only come off when about to lie down. No muscles pulling, even when doing hands on the floor exercises with knees straight, feet about 1 1/2' apart.

[freeone]

Hi Andrew , I was diagnosed about eleven years ago with relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis .I decided three days ago to try the inclined bed therapy. First couple of days i felt the old usual pins and needles aches pins etc. But today when i awoke  i could hardly stand with the pain in my lower back .I was taken aback because as i walked down stairs i felt like what i can describe only as electric shocks go up and down my spine followed by big waves i also felt something shift . I have never felt this clear for many a year.I am on LDN and although it has helped me in other ways i can only put this shift and clear headiness down to your inclined bed therapy . I will continue to sleep this way and i will keep a record of any changes that occurs and I truly want to Thankyou for posting your video and your inclined bed therapy idea on youtube. Hope I have posted this in correct area.
Many Thanks
Vivienne