[Koogern Govender]

Koogern Govender  asked the Naked Scientists:

Hi Chris
   
I have been listening to your show on Talk Radio 702 and had a nagging question I was hoping you could help me with. Please see the URL ...sorry, you cannot view external links. To see them, please REGISTER or LOGIN
   
I would really like to know, is the whole concept of running ones car on “Hydrogen on demand” is it possible.
   
I know running on hydrogen works, but theres a danger of explosion on impact with compressed hydrogen.
   
If this is possible what would be the easiest way of generating hydrogen and temporarily storing it in a chamber then having it absorbed by the cars vacuum pipe into the intake manifold for combustion.
   
I would really appreciate your feedback on this.
   
Kind regards
   
Koogern Govender


What do you think?

[lyner]

Is this basically a question about storing Hydrogen safely?
This has been discussed at length and is the make or break factor in H powered vehicles

[McQueen]

No you can't. Look its about none of those things!!! The main fact is that free hydrogen isn't available on earth, period! This means that you have to get it from somewhere else and water isn't the most practical solution!!!!

[Bored chemist]

Yes, you can. There are so called metal hydride systems that store it at relativey low pressure. They have other technical problems but it's certainly not impossible.

Of course you could also produce hydrogen on demand by, for example, electrolysis of water . To do this you would need a power supply. Unfortunately, this aproach doesn't get very far. Whatever power supply you use could, more efficiently, run a motor to drive the car.
Getting hydrogen is easy; the problem is getting energy.

[lyner]

Yes but there seems to be some particular 'cachee' about using H! Somehow, it's got to be better.

[chris]

Purdue researcher Jerry Woodall has found a way to produce very large amounts of hydrogen by reacting water with aluminium granules. He found, by accident, that adding small amounts of gallium to the aluminium prevents aluminium from forming the protecting oxide film that normally prevents the metal from reacting with water.

When water is added the aluminium turns into aluminium hydroxide, yet the gallium is not consumed and can be recycled. The aluminium hydroxide can then be converted to aluminium oxide and then aluminium again, by electrolysis.

His proposal is to use electricity from a carbon-neutral source such as wind, hydro or nucler power to drive the electrolysis process. The resulting aluminium, mixed with gallium, can be used as the convenient way to produce hydrogen on demand in vehicles. By altering the supply of water being piped over the aluminium the rate of hydrogen production can be controlled.

Here's a link to the interview we did with him in 2007:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/757/

Chris

[lyner]

So, what he is doing is using a novel way of storing energy. Could be the answer to the Maiden's prayer. There seems to be a fair amount of gallium available in the World, too.

[Bored chemist]

Seen the price of gallium?

[lyner]

Three dollars a gram, according to Wiki and it it wouldn't be a consumable. Platinum is much more pricey, but you find it all over the place in catalysts.
Do you have some other information about cost / possible total quantity available? It could make a big difference to the scheme.

[peppercorn]

Isn't getting aluminium from ore going to use many times the energy released through the hydrogen?
Also, what's the power density of this 'fuel' compared with say a Li-ion cell?

[lyner]

Well yes - the same as building a new, highly efficient,  car is a bit of a nonsense when it takes so much more energy than you could ever save compared with keeping and using your old one.
But that's what the Government seem to be encouraging.
The hope would be that the Aluminium extraction would produce a storage medium which would last for a long long time, presumably, before being thrown away.

[peppercorn]

Well yes - the same as building a new, highly efficient,  car is a bit of a nonsense when it takes so much more energy than you could ever save compared with keeping and using your old one.

Ahhhh, well that sounds like an argument of ideologies rather than science/technology!
(as if science could ever be free of ideological bias in the real world! lol!)
Rightly or wrongly, the modern world seems to be addicted to the exponential growth of consumerism - I can't see anyone throwing this ideology out any time soon!

[lyner]

Green consumerism; now there's an oxymoron, if ever there was one.

[McQueen]

Surely it is hydrogen itself that is the problem! Sure, hydrogen is the most plentiful element in the Universe by far!!! But.......sadly, there is, for obvious reasons, no free hydrogen available on earth. To extract it from existing hydrocarbons, is going to be extremely dirty and extremely wasteful. So why talk about it until and unless some solution to make pure hydrogen economically and efficiently comes along. Till then all this is moot.

[peppercorn]

Surely it is hydrogen itself that is the problem! ... So why talk about it until and unless some solution to make pure hydrogen economically and efficiently comes along. Till then all this is moot.

Here's a post I started a few months ago...

"Tiny porphyrin tubes developed by Sandia may lead to new nanodevices"

...sorry, you cannot view external links. To see them, please REGISTER or LOGIN

sunlight + water + catalyst = hydrogen.

Better than making electricity from sunlight, yes?

[lightarrow]

Purdue researcher Jerry Woodall has found a way to produce very large amounts of hydrogen by reacting water with aluminium granules. He found, by accident, that adding small amounts of gallium to the aluminium prevents aluminium from forming the protecting oxide film that normally prevents the metal from reacting with water.

When water is added the aluminium turns into aluminium hydroxide, yet the gallium is not consumed and can be recycled. The aluminium hydroxide can then be converted to aluminium oxide and then aluminium again, by electrolysis.

His proposal is to use electricity from a carbon-neutral source such as wind, hydro or nucler power to drive the electrolysis process. The resulting aluminium, mixed with gallium, can be used as the convenient way to produce hydrogen on demand in vehicles. By altering the supply of water being piped over the aluminium the rate of hydrogen production can be controlled.

Here's a link to the interview we did with him in 2007:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/757/

Chris

Why the need for Gallium? Put an aluminum foil in a glass of water + sodium idroxide (or carbonate) and after a few seconds you can see hydrogen bubbles coming out (by the way, this is the method I have used to inflate with H₂ a small balloon which then I released...in the free sky (hope it didn't find a smoking pilot!  [])).

2Al + 6H₂O --(OH^-)--> 2Al(OH)₃ + 3H₂

[lyner]

Purdue researcher Jerry Woodall has found a way to produce very large amounts of hydrogen by reacting water with aluminium granules. He found, by accident, that adding small amounts of gallium to the aluminium prevents aluminium from forming the protecting oxide film that normally prevents the metal from reacting with water.
. . . . .

But where do you get the aluminium granules from?
The only source of aluminium is in the ores, which requires Energy to extract it (by electrolysis). This energy will be on of the same order as the energy you would get in the form of chemical energy in the hydrogen gas you produce by this method.

[qazibasit]

well if u even make a process to generate hydrogen on the go the weight of ur car will be so much which the generated hydrogen wont be able to move.

[johnjnam]

Hi   Everybody

Am  a  newbie   here  and  would  like  ask  permission  to  add  a  small  contribution  to  the  forum  here .
I  been  reading a  lot    on  the  net  about  the   water 4  gas   idea   and the  HHO  ( or brown gas ) theory   sounds  fascinating .
Most  people   also get  the  wrong  impression  and  idea  about  these  devices . People  believe   that  after  such a  device  is  fitted  then  you  can  simply  drain  the  fuel  tank    of  its  gasoline  and  fill  it  up   from  the  garden  hose . Yes  that  would have  been  wonderful .   That  is  the  wrong  impression -  engines  will  still  run  on  gas  , the  HHO gas  should (  hopefully )  improve   the  combustion and  then improve   the  fuel consumption . But  we  will  still  use  gasoline .
There  must  be   lots  of  these  devices  on  the  market  now   , but  I  guess  one  has  to  also  be  careful  of  scams .
Some  of  the  “invertors”  claim from  30% to 107%  improvement  in  fuel  consumption!!! 
Regarding   the  107% improvement -  there  are  some  people  who  do  believe  that  the  Easter  bunny  does  exist !   That  is  wishful  thinking .
I  would  appreciate   any  advice regarding  the water 4 gas   concept  and  would  also  love  to hear  from  anybody  who  had  some  degree of  success  with  these  devices .
I  do  live  in  Namibia  and    am  a mechanic  by  profession   , Am teaching  at  a training  centre   for  mechanical  apprentices .
We  have  build  such  an  electrolizer  and  are  busy  experimenting  with  it   so  any  advice    will  be  highly  appreciated .
Here is  what  we  done .
We  used  an  old 12  V  battery  box having  6  cells  and  made  it  into  an  electrolizer  using 2 stainless  steel  electrodes in  each  cell . As   an  electrolyte  distilled  water  was  used  with baking  soda added  till the  total  current  drawn  reached   around  7  amps . Increasing  the  current  flow   we  found  generates  too  much  heat .
The  battery  top  was  then  sealed  with a  Perspex  plate  and  the  gasses  from  each  cell was  fed  into  a  manifold junction  which  then  was  fed  to  the PCV   valve  connection   above  the  carburetor  of a Toyota  Corolla   engine .
The   cells  were  then  connected  to  a  12 V  battery  .  We  have  tries  all  sorts  of  connections  and  found if  we  connect  3  cells  in  paralell to  form  6 v and  then  connect  the  2 groups  in  series  to  form a  12 V worked  the  best .

The   device   was  then  tested  on  a  stationary    engine   running  at  3000 rpm and  we  found  that  the  device  was saving  a mere  300 ml  of  fuel  per  hour .
Which  is  NOT a  lot  !!!

We  have  not  tested  it  on a  road  test  yet  , but  will  do  so in  the  next  week   and  will  let  you  know  what  happened .
If  anybody  has  any  ideas  -  please fill  us  in .

PS  living   here in  Africa  the  network   is  not  always   what it  should  be  and  sometimes  it  is  hard  to  log  into  the  site  , so if  you  could  please  mail  me  as  well  on johnjnam@yahoo.com

 All  the  best   
John

Koogern Govender  asked the Naked Scientists:

Hi Chris
   
I have been listening to your show on Talk Radio 702 and had a nagging question I was hoping you could help me with. Please see the URL newbielink:http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm [nonactive]
   
I would really like to know, is the whole concept of running ones car on “Hydrogen on demand” is it possible.
   
I know running on hydrogen works, but theres a danger of explosion on impact with compressed hydrogen.
   
If this is possible what would be the easiest way of generating hydrogen and temporarily storing it in a chamber then having it absorbed by the cars vacuum pipe into the intake manifold for combustion.
   
I would really appreciate your feedback on this.
   
Kind regards
   
Koogern Govender


What do you think?

[lightarrow]

Hi   Everybody

Am  a  newbie   here  and  would  like  ask  permission  to  add  a  small  contribution  to  the  forum  here .
I  been  reading a  lot    on  the  net  about  the   water 4  gas   idea   and the  HHO  ( or brown gas ) theory   sounds  fascinating .
Most  people   also get  the  wrong  impression  and  idea  about  these  devices . People  believe   that  after  such a  device  is  fitted  then  you  can  simply  drain  the  fuel  tank    of  its  gasoline  and  fill  it  up   from  the  garden  hose . Yes  that  would have  been  wonderful .   That  is  the  wrong  impression -  engines  will  still  run  on  gas  , the  HHO gas  should (  hopefully )  improve   the  combustion and  then improve   the  fuel consumption . But  we  will  still  use  gasoline .
There  must  be   lots  of  these  devices  on  the  market  now   , but  I  guess  one  has  to  also  be  careful  of  scams .
Some  of  the  “invertors”  claim from  30% to 107%  improvement  in  fuel  consumption!!! 
Regarding   the  107% improvement -  there  are  some  people  who  do  believe  that  the  Easter  bunny  does  exist !   That  is  wishful  thinking .
I  would  appreciate   any  advice regarding  the water 4 gas   concept  and  would  also  love  to hear  from  anybody  who  had  some  degree of  success  with  these  devices .
I  do  live  in  Namibia  and    am  a mechanic  by  profession   , Am teaching  at  a training  centre   for  mechanical  apprentices .
We  have  build  such  an  electrolizer  and  are  busy  experimenting  with  it   so  any  advice    will  be  highly  appreciated .
Here is  what  we  done .
We  used  an  old 12  V  battery  box having  6  cells  and  made  it  into  an  electrolizer  using 2 stainless  steel  electrodes in  each  cell . As   an  electrolyte  distilled  water  was  used  with baking  soda added  till the  total  current  drawn  reached   around  7  amps . Increasing  the  current  flow   we  found  generates  too  much  heat .
The  battery  top  was  then  sealed  with a  Perspex  plate  and  the  gasses  from  each  cell was  fed  into  a  manifold junction  which  then  was  fed  to  the PCV   valve  connection   above  the  carburetor  of a Toyota  Corolla   engine .
The   cells  were  then  connected  to  a  12 V  battery  .  We  have  tries  all  sorts  of  connections  and  found if  we  connect  3  cells  in  paralell to  form  6 v and  then  connect  the  2 groups  in  series  to  form a  12 V worked  the  best .

The   device   was  then  tested  on  a  stationary    engine   running  at  3000 rpm and  we  found  that  the  device  was saving  a mere  300 ml  of  fuel  per  hour .
Which  is  NOT a  lot  !!!

We  have  not  tested  it  on a  road  test  yet  , but  will  do  so in  the  next  week   and  will  let  you  know  what  happened .
If  anybody  has  any  ideas  -  please fill  us  in .

PS  living   here in  Africa  the  network   is  not  always   what it  should  be  and  sometimes  it  is  hard  to  log  into  the  site  , so if  you  could  please  mail  me  as  well  on johnjnam@yahoo.com

 All  the  best   
John

<<The   device   was  then  tested  on  a  stationary    engine   running  at  3000 rpm and  we  found  that  the  device  was saving  a mere  300 ml  of  fuel  per  hour>>

...using the equivalent energy of much more then 300 ml  of  fuel  per  hour...