[Pumblechook]

I bought some psychotronic crystals from a man in a pub.  He told me if I kept them in my car not only would I get better mpg  they would protect me from the dealy waves from mobile phones masts.  I got them at a special price of only £200. 

[AB Hammer]

I bought some psychotronic crystals from a man in a pub.  He told me if I kept them in my car not only would I get better mpg  they would protect me from the dealy waves from mobile phones masts.  I got them at a special price of only £200. 

 Proper sarcasm, at least I hope it is sarcasm. LOL
Any body pushing free energy, perpetual motion, ect. and asking for donations or backers without solid proof, is normally just another snake oil salesman. This is bad for there are to many claims out there and it makes it harder to get people to look the real thing when it is truly done.

[lyner]

ABH

Then you will have to say that gravity is an energy. But we are taught that it is a force. Thus I like the term force to energy converter.

Definition (not really negociable):
Work Done (mehanical energy transferred) = Force multiplied by distance moved by the force, in the direction that the force acts
'Gravity' is too loose a term to use meaningfully.
The Force which is caused by gravity (i.e. weight) is a force and is not energy.
The Gravitational Potential Energy of an object is the energy that was put in to getting the object where it is.  This Energy  (or Work), is given by mgh, where g is the gravitational field, m is the mass and h is the height to which it has been raised.
(You may or may not have been taught that but the above is what you should have been taught.)

You can 'get energy out' of a falling weight (like in an old clock) but, once the weight has fallen to the bottom, you have to wind it up again. Gravity is no more a source of energy than a spring or a rechargeable battery.

If you are 'using gravity' for your machine, then you must have objects falling down in it. If you say the objects move up again, then they will need to be lifted and this will require the same amount of energy as you got our PLUS something to make up for the frictional losses.
If you are using levers, gears, screws or anything else to reduce the force needed to lift them up again then you will have to move this reduced force FURTHER. The total (integral) of force times distance cannot be less.
All the diagrams you can see from past inventions involve 'hopeful' designs with many falling balls on one side and few raised balls on the other (or some such idea). Add up all the Work and you will never get more out than was put in. The friction, consequently, gives you a total loss.
Work it out yourself for a simple lever and the same applies for any other mechanism.

You mentioned your system going very fast. It should be able to work at snail's pace if it were truly Perpetual.

[lyner]

AKF

This is my nature; I do not believe anything until completely satisfied there is no other logical explanation.

That's an amazing statement, in the light of your own theory, posted elsewhere. Occam's razor should apply everywhere, surely.

[Pumblechook]

You could have free energy if you only ever went downhill.

I am going downhill rapidly but that is another matter.

 

[AB Hammer]

@sophiecentaur

 Fantastic! you are hitting the nail on the head. Understanding what you have to overcome is the first step in solving the puzzle. The next step is understanding how movement reacts inside, lets say a wheel device. Centrifugal effect creates even more dimension to the puzzle. The reset, is what you have noted to be a very big problem and it is. Johan Bessler in the 18 century solved this problem and built 4 different working wheels. They were on display and no one could prove him wrong. They went to great stride, even as far as taxing him on it to get his secret. But they would not pay his price and from the pressure and false accusations against him, he decided keep it to himself. It is a very interesting story and full books on the subject. Most of what you see about him is footnotes and mostly without merit for they are from a nay say point of view.

You mentioned your system going very fast. It should be able to work at snail's pace if it were truly Perpetual.

 This statement I have to disagree with. For it can start out slow but it will speed up till frictions, centrifugal force effect, and other factors  determine its speed limits. Without these limits it would simply be gravity plus velocity = ? each and every turn.

[lyner]

Johan Bessler has the advantage of having lived a long time ago. So we cannot know exactly what he demonstrated. The ancient accounts of his demonstrations cannot be verified or disproved.
The Wikkers account of his work tells us he was in it for money. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but breaking the wheel up rather than keeping it would suggest that he had something dodgey to hide. And there was a claim that it was, in fact, driven by hand.
Yuri Geller and others have performed similar astounding scams but they have all been uncovered. The gullible will always prefer the romantic interpretation of things rather than the rigorous one. But I should have hoped that things would have improved in 300 years.
I see that you are now suggesting that you can, in fact, get an energy flow OUT of the machine. That is really fantastic. The end to all our worries.

[AB Hammer]

but breaking the wheel up rather than keeping it would suggest that he had something dodgey to hide. And there was a claim that it was, in fact, driven by hand.

 Bessler got wind of the attempt to expose his secret without being paid by arresting him. You would have destroyed it to keep your secret as well. By the way he was cleared of all charges, and his secret safe. There were some people who have been allowed to see inside his wheel and they where of royal background, under their honor to keep the secret.

I see that you are now suggesting that you can, in fact, get an energy flow OUT of the machine. That is really fantastic. The end to all our worries.

 All our worries? I don't think so. When successful it most likely have to be to big except for electrical generation and stationary mechanical work. The Amish would love it.

[lyner]

With respect, he chose just the right people to show the workings to. Would you seriously expect the Royals of several hundred years ago to have been capable of spotting the 'flaw'?
Most of the human race, these days are unable to spot 'the flaw' either. That doesn't mean that there isn't one.

As for the necessary scale of a 'useful' version of your machine, what would be the problem with batteries for the small  power items?

Just go ahead and make the thing and we unbelievers will all be proved wrong.
I will even offer to come and witness it (as long as you pay my fare if I spot the flaw).
Now there's an offer. And it's not a wager.

[AB Hammer]

Just go ahead and make the thing and we unbelievers will all be proved wrong.
I will even offer to come and witness it (as long as you pay my fare if I spot the flaw).
Now there's an offer. And it's not a wager.

Now that sound fair enough. I just have to get over this pneumonia and get my work up to date, so I can build it and then get patent pending status, and I will let you know.

PS wear and tear excluded from flaw for that is a given.

[lyner]

'Wear and tear', distinct from 'sacrificial use as an energy source' would be reasonable.
However, wear and tear involves 'change', which involves the transfer of energy - where will that energy come from?

[lyner]

ABH

Then you will have to say that gravity is an energy. But we are taught that it is a force. Thus I like the term force to energy converter.

Definition (not really negociable):
Work Done (mehanical energy transferred) = Force multiplied by distance moved by the force, in the direction that the force acts
'Gravity' is too loose a term to use meaningfully.
The Force which is caused by gravity (i.e. weight) is a force and is not energy.
The Gravitational Potential Energy of an object is the energy that was put in to getting the object where it is.  This Energy  (or Work), is given by mgh, where g is the gravitational field, m is the mass and h is the height to which it has been raised.

(You may or may not have been taught that but the above is what you should have been taught.)

BTW, you haven't responded to the rather important point, repeated above.
If we are to have a 'Scientific' discussion and not just a fantasy chat, we need to get the ground rules sorted out.

[AB Hammer]

Sorry sophiecentau but, you will have to wait, until the exposure time. I have to be careful, for I could inadvertently expose the breakthrough, and that would not be fair to those I work with as well. Thus I can not tell you how it is done at this time.

 But what we can do is post some designs and talk about what stop each design from working? Or I can post some designs or links that I have posted on other forums to talk how they can or cannot work as well.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5802.0

The links might be interesting to you as well.

[Bored chemist]

What will stop any and all the designs working is the whole of physics.
What's to discuss?

[ukmicky]

Ah yes sophiecentaur

 We now get into the intellectual phase now.
1. Is the machine perpetual? or is the motion perpetual?
2. When something is destroyed, is it truly destroyed or just changed?

 Every thing goes through a change, which means change is perpetual. Now the wear and tear of a devices which can cause a change in a motion which can make a device fail. But the original motion design that is guided by the device is perpetual and will remain perpetual until the material changes. So you have to look at it as, if there is no change in the device the motion is and will remain perpetual. Thus once the machine is built, perpetual motion is proved.

Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.
And as such a place could not be found or made on earth you;ve got no chance.

Put something in space far enough away from everything else and you could  spin something and expect it to continue spinning for ever however on earth friction would cause to much of a loss of energy and any device would sooner or latter stop .

Unless you are a pure genuis that is and have found a way to convert 100% of the heat and sound produced by friction back in motion. Or have developed some new form of  frictionless material. Or found a way to build an enclosure which stops  gravity ,or the transference of heat and energy from inside or out.

[AB Hammer]

Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.

Greetings ukmicky

Up to this point you are correct. You can put it in a glass case.

And as such a place could not be found or made on earth you;ve got no chance.

Put something in space far enough away from everything else and you could  spin something and expect it to continue spinning for ever

Now to this point we are approaching fantasy and the unpractical.

however on earth friction would cause to much of a loss of energy and any device would sooner or latter stop .

Wear and tear of materials has to be taken into consideration. For as long as the materials last the motion will remain perpetual.

Unless you are a pure genuis and have found a way to convert 100% of the heat and sound produced by friction back in motion. Or have developed some new form of new frictionless material. Or found a way to build an enclosure which prevents gravity ,heat or any form of energy being transferred from inside or out.

You missed overwhelming movement that overcomes all friction, until the material fails itself. Which is what it will be. The design for the movement is all that maters, for it can be rebuilt and allot more can be built and fictitious restrictions of impractical proof won't stop it. We have to keep our minds in the realm of reality and practicality.

 Here is what you want. A device that runs with No fuel, no sun, no wind, no water, no recognizable source but gravity. And like any other machine repairs may have to be done from time to time. But that will then be all what is needed. It will perpetuate its movement until something stops it.

[AB Hammer]

What will stop any and all the designs working is the whole of physics.
What's to discuss?

Greetings Bored chemist

Here is what one of your founding fathers said

“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947

[lyner]

whatever is "overwhelming movement"?
How can any of this be taken seriously whilst such terms as that are used with no definition?

[rosy]

no recognizable source but gravity

Eh? If something moves down a gravitational potential it will gain in kinetic energy, sure... but you've still got to do work to start it off at the top, and it will still (possibly over many oscillations) unless it is a truly frictionless system, eventually lose that energy. At which point it will stop.
Running under gravity alone is not sufficient for perpetual motion.

[AB Hammer]

no recognizable source but gravity

Eh? If something moves down a gravitational potential it will gain in kinetic energy, sure... but you've still got to do work to start it off at the top, and it will still (possibly over many oscillations) unless it is a truly frictionless system, eventually lose that energy. At which point it will stop.
Running under gravity alone is not sufficient for perpetual motion.

You are not looking a repetitive actions with in a device which will repeat and build up kinetic energy. Thus it becomes perpetual. Don't confuse perpetual with spiritual theory. I have a Graduates degree in theology with the Orthodox. And gravity will always exist so if a device runs on gravity it is perpetual. Even the US patent office has now recognized the possibility of a perpetual motion device. But they won't allow a patent, without a working model.