god and science

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Offline noden1

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god and science
« on: 19/05/2003 23:39:26 »
can a belief system in a christian god be reconciled with science.in other words is it possible to be a scientist and a christian.
 

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Offline Exodus

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Re: god and science
« Reply #1 on: 19/05/2003 23:51:26 »
Hello noden, welcome to the forum! That is a very good question and one that always has me thinking...

To be honest. i find that question really difficult to answer, from various narrative scientific books i have read, it seems that scientists of the past tried to base their theories upon religious foundations, today i think it may be considerably different, scientists are considering a wider picture when not attempting to explain things within the confines of the bible. HOWEVER there are so many things within science that CANNOT be explained (such as the origin of life) that i believe there is plenty of scope for religion and science to live side by side... this is just my view, i know for a fact that this is going to stir up some interesting views from various people so keep coming back and watch it unfurl....

Richard.

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« Last Edit: 20/05/2003 00:01:43 by Exodus »

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Offline cuso4

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Re: god and science
« Reply #2 on: 20/05/2003 08:02:26 »
A lot of famous scientists were also religious. I think one of the examples was Issac Newton.

Angel
Angel

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Offline chris

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Re: god and science
« Reply #3 on: 20/05/2003 20:04:49 »
mmm but I think the 'incentive', if that's the right word to use, of not being burned at the stake was sufficient to convince most medieval and renaissance scientists as to the existence of God !

The same threat motivated Copernicus to published his life's work on his death bed, but for Gallileo it was too late....[V]

Chris
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Offline Donnah

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Re: god and science
« Reply #4 on: 20/05/2003 21:25:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by chris

mmm but I think the 'incentive', if that's the right word to use, of not being burned at the stake was sufficient to convince most medieval and renaissance scientists as to the existence of God !

The same threat motivated Copernicus to published his life's work on his death bed, but for Gallileo it was too late....[V]

Chris



Perhaps the right word would be "incinerative".

I believe in God, if that's the name you choose to give Universal Intelligence.  I also believe in science.

The Bible has been "translated" so many times, the original message has probably lost its purity.  I think that things were not meant to be taken so literally to begin with; look at our communication amongst ourselves, it certainly is not literal.  Add to this the contextual changes translating from language to language.  It does say in the Bible that we are made in the image of God, so it makes sense that we would feel comfortable when we are on the right track and dis-eased when we treat ourselves or others incorrectly.  Just pay attention to your body.  It always tells the truth.
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn

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Offline PG

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Re: god and science
« Reply #5 on: 23/05/2003 20:54:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by noden1

can a belief system in a christian god be reconciled with science.in other words is it possible to be a scientist and a christian.



My view is that science will explain everything, tomorrow. Religion is what people use when then need something explained today. Imagine that you are dying of cancer. I fully belive that science will find a cure, but it won't be until well after you are dead. "Faith in science" doesn't amount to much in such a situation. I fully believe that science will explain everything. Too bad it will take until infinity to do it. Most of life is actually about dealing with situations for which you have incomplete information. Unfortunatly, that is not just a minor detail, but a fundamental problem of life.

Another point is that Christianity is very practical. Try forgiving someone. You feel better. It is the most utilitarian, practical advice anyone can give you.

If you want to get very serious about life, visit a childrens' hospital. Half of your feelings will be to dedicate your life to finding cures for the various conditions. The cure will all be too late for the kids there right now, though. Your other feelings are to right here and now give simple human care and comfort to the kids who will never get a cure. Yes, it is possible to be Christian and a scientist.

To end on a lighter note. What, as a scientist, is the alternative? To passionatly believe, based on no proof, that Science will answer all questions and solve all problems? I thought blind uncritical faith in dogma was the problem with religion. I once saw a sticker posted on a wall saying "Question Authority!". Below that someone had written "why?" (Like Byron, I cried because I hadn't written it) Below that the person who put the sticker up whined on and on about politics, entirely missing the irony. Question ALL authority, and only belive in what works. Forgiveness and public sanitation are the two big things that work.
« Last Edit: 23/05/2003 21:11:39 by PG »
 

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Offline Donnah

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Re: god and science
« Reply #6 on: 24/05/2003 03:41:49 »
PG, you are a deep thinker and appear to have considerable life experience.  Welcome.
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn

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Offline Ians Daddy

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Re: god and science
« Reply #7 on: 12/06/2003 21:43:03 »
I'm shiny new here and should have chosen a cleaner topic to play with, but here goes.

  Very well put, PG. To my knowledge, no one has ever "married" the two topics. It seems that they are both staunchly defended by their supporters and the concept of science with Christianity is out of the question. The minds are closed and the walls are up.
   Groing up as a Christian and later running the gambit of religions, I've since chosen to just be spiritual. Christ like. My belief is that God is science and science is God. As a baker doesn't just "poof" a cake, God doesn't just "poof" existence. I feel that God created evolution. A process for creation. God is the greatest scientist of all time. He wrapped his brain around a concept and got to work on it. A little trial and error and let the process take action. As everything around us is a process, so is the process of all of it evolving from God and his master plan. God, the chemist, artist, scientist, poet and author of us.
   So, in my humble opinion, YES, you can be a scientist as well as a spiritual person. Just heed the best advice I've heard in a long time...to quote Donnah, "Listen to your body, it always tells the truth."
 

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Offline Donnah

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Re: god and science
« Reply #8 on: 13/06/2003 17:51:06 »
Welcome Ian's Daddy.  Funny how your identity changes when you have a child!
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn

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Offline Ians Daddy

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Re: god and science
« Reply #9 on: 16/06/2003 01:19:47 »
Donnah,
  Thanks for the welcome and the site. I love coming here as much as possible. It's quite educational, as well as, addictive.

  Yes, our identities do change. Almost disappears as a person and reappears as a parent.
  My oldest, Ian, is 5 and has been going to museum school here at the Fort Worth Museum of Science and History. He's really got a grasp on this science thing and blows me away with some of his little "findings". He tells me he's going to be a scientist when he grows up because he already is one. He also makes plenty of messes of my kitchen with his "machemicals" I can't wait to turn him loose on this web site. Y'all will be teaching him so much and spurring questions in his little mind that we can look into together. We just have to keep his little brother from tearing up all the projects.

Ronnie
 

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Offline n/a

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Re: god and science
« Reply #10 on: 17/06/2003 15:03:29 »
I don't think it is really possible to really believe in God as a scientist. The two do not agree in my opinion. Evolution just completely disagrees with anything science and scientists believe in.
 

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Offline Ians Daddy

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Re: god and science
« Reply #11 on: 17/06/2003 15:33:31 »
Maybe not God from sunday school, but rather a God as we, as individuals, understand God. A higher power, or as Donnah put it, a "Universal Inteligence". The difference between me and God is that he never thinks he is me.

I think society, over the ages, has caused God and science to disagree. Man's fragile ego to not accept a genetic link to the ape. I see evolution, God and science as one. Every science experiment / dicovery "evolved" from a thought and a process. Everything around us, from creation to cream pie is evolution.

I can tell you that I, for years, was agnostic to a certain degree. However, because it's my nature to test everything, I found something bigger than me in all my afairs when I was willing to see it. We as scienctific people most always stick to, "I'll believe it when I see it." Sometimes it's just the oposite...."I'll see it when I believe it" works better for me. Just a thought.

Welcome, asdasd!
 

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Offline jdelgado

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Re: god and science
« Reply #12 on: 17/06/2003 15:55:03 »
I work with a few scientists who go to church on a regular basis, so I'd say anything is possible.
 

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Offline dalya

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Re: god and science
« Reply #13 on: 30/06/2003 09:19:16 »
Well in the same vein as PG:

In a way, does it really matter?  My understanding of what Christianity is idealistically (at least the original New Testament sort of Christianity) supposed to be is as a guide towards being a good ethical kind and loving human being with the christian community there to support you in those endeavors. Does explanations about origins or function of life change that?  It may influence how you feel about technology true and what is ethical and what is not, but at the end I think the same thing emerges whether you are religious or not -this world is a wondrous place and all elements of its creation -environment, animals, humans, whatever -deserve respect.  If you want to say that it came from god or that it came from energy -perhaps god is energy? - that really shouldn't change the way we act in this world.  Science and religion is only mutually incompatible if you want it to be.
 

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Offline bezoar

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Re: god and science
« Reply #14 on: 16/07/2003 07:29:11 »
Donnah,

Actually, when parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls were translated, and compared to our current Bible passages, it was found that very little was lost in the multiple translations.  That alone is amazing to me.

Bezoar
 

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Offline McGee

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Re: god and science
« Reply #15 on: 17/07/2003 14:15:54 »
First off, I am a christian, believing in God and Jesus Christ as our risen savior.

How very true that science has only gotten truly started in the last 400-500 years.  I teach a lesson on Copernicus, Giordani Bruno, Galileo and Isaac Newton each year.  We discuss their contributions and their impact on the Church of England and the Roman Catholic church at the time.  I correlate it with the social studies lessons on inventors.  Imagine Thomas Edison inventing the light bulb during the day of Galileo.  (Theoretical, of course.)  He'd been burned for 'creating light'.

I think a basic fundamental of being a christian is accepting things on faith, no explanation.  Imagine trying to explain a computer and the internet to someone who lived 75 years ago.  I believe that when I get to heaven, the things I could not understand will be explained.  Until then, I get along the best I can.  I try to refrain from teaching things that hold little scientific value, but are based on loosely formed theories.  Macroevolution, carbon dating, etc.  Fortunately, I teach 8th grade and my students are really only beginning to grasp concepts in an attempt to apply them.

There are many scientists at work to explain our world within the pages of the Bible. I do not believe that the translations have been misconstrued to the point of no longer presenting what the original writer had intended.  That said, I think the Bible is more intended for instruction, rather than explanation.  Some of the views of these scientists are interesting and they make a good case.  Others have clearly had no formal training and are able to deceive those who haven't either.

It has also been a challenge to rely on my faith first, rather than science.  Don't try to explain God.  He tells us if we truly had faith, inasmuch in a mustard seed, we could move mountains.  It's an incredibly huge concept to explain to people who aren't believers.  

McGee

Teachers don't make a lot of money, but they make a lot of difference.
Teachers don't make a lot of money, but they make a lot of difference.

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Offline cobra427

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Re: god and science
« Reply #16 on: 08/08/2003 15:17:31 »
quote:
058) impedance of vacuum = 3.767303134… x 10^2 kg-m^2/A^2-s^3-sr


just got my Dyson out and put my volt meter between the live and neutral and i get about 300ohms...
 

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Igor Clark

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Re: god and science
« Reply #17 on: 08/08/2003 15:20:22 »
Yeah but it doesn't lose suction does it

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Offline Feline1

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Re: god and science
« Reply #18 on: 08/08/2003 15:58:05 »
>>If you want to get very serious about life, visit a childrens' hospital. Half of your feelings will be to dedicate your life to finding cures for the various conditions. The cure will all be too late for the kids there right now, though. Your other feelings are to right here and now give simple human care and comfort to the kids who will never get a cure. Yes, it is possible to be Christian and a scientist.

Yes, but here's me: Wha?

Ewe don't have to be a Christian to be a nice person. There are nice people who aren't Christians. Being a Christian doesn't nessacelery make ewe a nice person. The nicest nice person may be nicer than the nicest Christian person. :p

That's y'all folks... :-O
 

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Offline D@vé

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Re: god and science
« Reply #19 on: 08/08/2003 16:07:29 »
Sorry....  i don't believe in God...  Its all complete codswallop.  If you wanna believe in some ethereal higher being then yeah ...whatever... its your life.  Calling yourself a christian isnt going to make any difference though...

In the words of Feline...  Yes, but here's me: Wha?

« Last Edit: 08/08/2003 16:08:29 by D@vé »
 

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Offline rahonavis

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Re: god and science
« Reply #20 on: 06/03/2006 13:55:43 »
Hi all,

I don't think there is any doubt that a person can be both a Christian and a scientist, as many Christian scientists do exist. Whether or not they are correct in believing science and Christianity to be reconcilable is another matter.

I personally don't believe that they are; I think the Christian scientist has to make too many concessions in his / her beliefs due to the contradictions of science in the Bible.

I've never liked to just believe in something because I want it to be true. And the fact is, there is no more evidence for God as our creator than there is in a giant flying blancmange having spewed forth the Universe. [:0]

 

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Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: god and science
« Reply #21 on: 06/03/2006 23:41:32 »
In reply to the original question ... yes, I don't see why not.

Rev. John Polkinghorne is a good example of a "top scientist" who is also a devout Christian.
(The main reference page for him is:  http://www.starcourse.org/jcp )

One interesting site I found recently which is fairly relevant to this thread is:
http://www.counterbalance.net/cqinterv/intro-frame.html

I think it's very good - lots of video feeds of very famous scientists, etc.  I recommend you to try out some of the links (video feeds and discussion scripts) on the right hand side of the page.

P.S. In case you're wondering ... no, I'm not a christian, I'm an agnostic.  I'd like to be an atheist, but I just don't have enough faith to be one.  (I'm too prepared to suspend judgement / keep an open mind to come down on either side of the fence.)

P.P.S.  Does anyone have any clue as to what Socratus is on about? (Or as to what he's ON? I gotta try some of it, whatever it is.)
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: god and science
« Reply #22 on: 06/03/2006 23:46:56 »
What happens if a christian scientist discovers there's no God ?
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: god and science
« Reply #23 on: 06/03/2006 23:55:14 »
quote:
What happens if a christian scientist discovers there's no God ?


a good christian scientist will take the only path open to him, the road to the fame and fortune.

Michael

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Offline tweener

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Re: god and science
« Reply #24 on: 07/03/2006 03:50:05 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

What happens if a christian scientist discovers there's no God ?



Good question Neil!

It cannot happen!  There is no way to prove the absence of anything.

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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: god and science
« Reply #25 on: 08/03/2006 07:46:47 »
Dear Neil, could you show this one the past thread on the subject, from about two yeras ago.

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: god and science
« Reply #26 on: 08/03/2006 18:06:46 »
I don't believe in a God as an outside influece affecting the universe but I do believe in religion as a mental process of deferring to authority to avoid megolomania and accept C of E as a perfectly acceptable local variety and am therefore a regular churchgoer.

Science is to do with observation measurement theory and modelling.  Religion is to do with symbolism, metaphor and human interaction  They are just not the same thing and are not incompatible unless you insist on a dogma based on the literal interpretation of metaphors that are millenia old and come from totally different environments.

Try to understand the metaphor and symbolism of religion in its true context and accept it as ways of chosing the best ways for societies to live and work together to create the co-operation that leads to Today's complex society and you will realise that although it has its faults without religion we would still be hunter gatherer communities scratching a living and fighing the adjacent communities to death to keep our living space.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

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Offline neilep

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Re: god and science
« Reply #27 on: 08/03/2006 18:10:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by tweener

quote:
Originally posted by neilep

What happens if a christian scientist discovers there's no God ?



Good question Neil!

It cannot happen!  There is no way to prove the absence of anything.

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.



JOHN JOHN !! *waves hello*

What a fantastic point !!

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline neilep

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Re: god and science
« Reply #28 on: 08/03/2006 18:11:58 »
quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape

Dear Neil, could you show this one the past thread on the subject, from about two yeras ago.

Titanscape



Bren...I'll have a look for you but can't promise I'll be able to find it...the search facility is *polite words* temperamental !!

Thanks Bren.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: god and science
« Reply #29 on: 10/03/2006 14:06:21 »
God in science is good remembering how many scientists in history believed. For something cannot come from nowhere, but God always was, He is YHWH meaning I Am That I Am. He is above time, the very source of the 4th dimension and all the others. Probably more than 4.

God is a great sourcing concept, above time and it's source and maintainer. In time as well like the universe with all the dimensions are in His hands...

First hand christians have told me my secret thoughts. A great source of comfort and hope, love and social justice and state justice.

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: god and science
« Reply #30 on: 10/03/2006 14:23:09 »
Here is another similar thread:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=618
Neilep, the other one must be archived.

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Offline neilep

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Re: god and science
« Reply #31 on: 10/03/2006 14:26:23 »
BREN...That's funny !!..I just found the exact same thread !!..well done !! http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=618
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Offline neilep

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Re: god and science
« Reply #32 on: 10/03/2006 14:28:44 »
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: god and science
« Reply #33 on: 16/03/2006 17:39:30 »
rong place sorry!
« Last Edit: 16/03/2006 17:40:46 by Hadrian »

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Offline VAlibrarian

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Re: god and science
« Reply #34 on: 20/03/2006 23:03:03 »
I read from some of you that it is not possible to be both a scientist and a Christian. I would venture that there is no absolute contradiction between the two belief systems.
Consider: is it possible for a scientist to prove that God does not exist? Of course not. You can't prove a negative. Therefore it is pointless for Christians to agonize over evolution as if it were a proof of God's nonexistence. On the contrary, some would argue that evolution in it's complexity and beauty is an awesome argument for God- a much better argument than that silly bit in the Bible about the seven days.

I have the pleasure to be an atheist, myself. But it would be as silly for me to try to convert all the Christians on this planet to atheism as it would be for them to attempt my conversion to Christianity. Neither thing will ever happen. Isn't this issue at heart a matter of civility, of putting down the stone instead of throwing it? I will not argue for the destruction of any religion when it is intended to serve love. When I hear Pat Robertson talk, however, I shake my head in disappointment. Let scientists do their work, and do not tell them that you know science better than they do. Let Christians follow Christ, even when they take odd detours. Progress will come through discourse rather than denial.

chris wiegard
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Offline Acoustic Samurai

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Re: god and science
« Reply #35 on: 25/06/2006 04:50:20 »
quote:
My view is that science will explain everything, tomorrow. Religion is what people use when then need something explained today.


My thoughts exactly.
"Science Rules"

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Offline nexus

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Re: god and science
« Reply #36 on: 21/07/2006 05:07:15 »
Oh, where to start? You can be a scientist and believe. Simply because, well, they exist. Yes there is proof! Evidence for the exitence of beings that are both scientists and believers of supernatural phenomena.

Now, I think a good scientist should be a good skeptic. So to answer the first question in the original post: no. Religions have been saying they have been right all along, they haven't, history proves that. There is no evidence for the existence of anything not of this natural world.

And besides all the logic that I can envoke. Have anybody actually read parts of these religious books? Come on, it just doesn't make sense. Contradictions galore and values that no right minded person would hold; you can't pick and choose which parts you think prove your point with the changing of the wind.

Besides all the above, science deals with the natural world, religion mostly the supernatural, they are different but related subjects. And if the supernatural can ever be proven it immediately thus becomes the realm of the natural (but don't count on it).
 

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Offline eric l

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Re: god and science
« Reply #37 on: 08/08/2006 14:42:08 »
For some reason or other these questions about science and religion also appearunder the topic "quantum physics quotes" in the "famous scientists, doctors and inventors" branch.  An I have to reply in the same way :  I see no conflict between science and religion because science deals with causes and religion deals with reasons.  
The cause of my being around is something my parents did 9 months before I was born.  But that does not say anything about the reason or pupose of my being around.
Some people keep saying that "things happen for a reason", but I prefer to say that "things happen for a cause".  If we manage to do soemthing about this cause, we may be able to prevent some bad thing from happening.  
But because a scientist has learned tot doubt, he will be aware that his answer to religious (or philosophical) questions is only one of the possible answers, he will be less inclined to force his opinion in such matters upon others.
"Wonder is no wonder" (Simon Stevin 1548-1620)

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Offline Theory of Mind

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Re: god and science
« Reply #38 on: 13/08/2006 04:40:38 »
quote:
Originally posted by noden1

can a belief system in a christian god be reconciled with science.in other words is it possible to be a scientist and a christian.


Hi,
1>It's possible if the scientist only researches the natural world.
2>It's impossible if the scientist researches Mind.

I can't write scientific articles in English well. Does anybody help me?
---------------------------
My English is poor. Please help me.