[moses lawn]

The amazing thing is that our ultra-left wing BBC deleted all mention of 'terrorists' or 'terrorism'from teletext and TV news reports following the outrages, once it had been established that they were carried out by Muslims.

This was said to have been done to avoid offending anyone - especially, no doubt, those who organised and carried out the bombings.

Lord forbid we offend them!!

"You play ball with me, and I'll scratch yours"

[neilep]

Awful trip into work today...Bomb scare at Finsbury Park, had to get the tube to Euston, long walk to the store pass ' the bus ', can't help noticing all the ' have you seen ' posters up on trees and posts, then on the way home getting my overground from Kings Cross, they've opened a little enclosure where people have been leaving flowers.....to think these terrorists were British born & bred, aged from 19 yrs to 22yrs !!...What is going on ?!!

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!

[Andrew K Fletcher]

I think this situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better/

Neil, Glad you survived the explosions unscathed. Close call that.

Read about a lot of trouble in Birmingham. Several arrests, controlled explosions, discovery of bomb making material in a housing estate near Dudley. Bomb scares in Halesowen and Blackheath, and several mosques in Birmingham have now been petrol bombed in retaliation.

I think this situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better/

Neil, Glad you survived the explosions unscathed. Close call that.

Anyway, you don’t belong in London mate, get your family out and come down here to South Devon, much nicer place to bring up a family and mush less stressful to boot. Dunno how or why anyone would want to live in or even near a city. I made the decision 18 years ago, and I ain’t never going back to that hell hole.

The bomb blast in London represents a tiny fraction of the massive destruction unleashed on the people in Baghdad and the rest of Iraq. And the bombers here in the U.K. represent the idiotic immigration policies of the people that initiated the war on Iraq. So I lay the blame firmly at the feet of our government. It was only a matter of time before terrorists gave London a Taste of our own governments medicine. Right or wrong, it has certainly made life a little less easy in the U.K.

In the words of a Japanese Admiral, I feer we have awoken a sleeping giant.

I really don’t know if this will ever be resolved, given the type of people now involved in the name of religion.  I fear that this is just the beginning and if the Irish problems are anything to go by, it will take many years and many more deaths before this can even begin to be resolved, if it can at all.
Enoch Powel’s words from his rivers of blood speech “Birmingham 1968” appear to have already come sadly and regretfully true in London, And my heart goes out to all the families affected by the recent terrorist activity.

Enoch Powell:
As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding , me
the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much
blood". That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch
with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which
there is interwoven with the history and existence of the
States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and
our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical
terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end
of the century. Only resolute and urgent action will avert
it even now. Whether there will be the public will to demand
obtain that action, I do not know. All I know is that to see,
and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
Full speech: http://www.sterlingtimes.org/text_rivers_of_blood.htm

[neilep]

quote:Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher



Anyway, you don’t belong in London mate, get your family out and come down here to South Devon

Andrew  !!..spot on!!..I long to be away from this place !!..have always had this urge to be by the sea , desperately need that sea air and open space.

Thanks Mate.



Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!

[Pablo]

F..ing Fanatics! Living in 21st century England, yet they don't let go of their "Middle Ages" mentality. They must be punished with all the weight of the LAW! Terrorrists disgust me and they will never prevail against civilization.

Pablo Gonzalez

[Tronix]

I extend my sympathyies to those whom were lose or hurt and my relief to those whom lived. I live in the U.S., and i had the dipleasure of witness 9/11 on the tv. No manner of cool and calm demeanor on my part could keep my most primal fears from rising up and shaking my core. but i was relieved by the heroism of people after the event. evne if the media is not nessarily trustworthy, i knew that most of the new yorkers that cooked for the firemen and the cops, not to mention the uniformed ones themselves, had personal gain as far from their minds as possible. And i saw the same for you guys in england. im glad to see that, and to see that alot of brillant guys such as yourselves were unharmed.

the best way to stick it to these @P\ses is to be an even better nation, with heroic people, high qualtiy of life, and at the same time, an awarenss and a lack of tolerance for anything that jepordizes a good life well earned and non-determental. continue life as if these ant had never crawled into your picnic basket. And let them know that they will lose if they intend to mess with you.

--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

[l_kryptonite (OP)]

What a shame.
On the night of the bombings I sent out two threads, expressing concern for those affected.  Nothing more than a little humanity where it might be needed.  Twice, the threads were hijacked by people with narrow political views and very little idea.  Tell me, what is politics without the people?

Heal first; rant later.
There are enough uninformed fanatics out there already.

[VAlibrarian]

Well yes, Kryptonite, humanity is needed and narrow political views are not. I suppose it is hard for us to keep cool when reacting to such an event- but keeping cool is nonetheless important. It's not really a political dialog when you are a suicide bomber, because you don't wait around to hear the response to your statement!
I suppose it expresses the idea "I am angry at something that you are doing so I am going to kill some of your innocent people as well as myself so that you will know that I am a brave martyr and so that you can't ask me any questions and find out who my friends are". It's limited, isn't it?
The problem is that it's a small planet and we can't just "leave each other alone". We have to try to build a survivable future. If we left the Islamic world alone a few terrorists would be happy, but most of the Muslims would not be happy at all. It's a challenge. They are overpopulated for their resources and when they run out of oil to send us they will have nothing. We have to find a way to get along along despite the crazies.

chris wiegard

[l_kryptonite (OP)]

I have no problem with this thread turning political, or anybody blowing off steam, but they could at least have waited until they knew where to point the finger.
When the bombs go off, who cares what the motivation is, just try to heal the people first.  How many  English moslems cringe every time this happens because they think they'll be spat apon when they walk the streets? Was it them?
All i'm suggesting is to save the roasting for those who truly deserve it, and in the mean time, help those who need it.

Tell me something?  Something like this happens and there are two kneejerk reactions.
a]People race out and insult the nearest group they think might have been involved.
b] People race out to help the victems and families, and to repair the infastructure.
All of this is seen on world television, all of it is broadcast on radio, and all of it is judged.
Which of these is going to create instability and fear, and which is going to bring help and support from watching countries?

Having said all of this, I must say that there was a lot of admiration in Oz for the way things were handled on a national level, they had b] down pat.


There is another issue, too.  Don't ever think i say turn the other cheek.  I say find them, and find them fast.  Just don't make a bloody, public specticle of their deaths.  

[DrN]

'Just don't make a bloody, public specticle of their deaths.'

seems like you talked that one up! I really hope they got the right guy after all that (stockwell tube)

[neilep]

Yesterday I had to hitch a lift home after the further attempts at blowing up the city denied me any public transport route home, and this morning there's been a shooting on the tube.

It's difficult to not create a spectacle when the media bombard you with ever changing facts literally by the minute and in some case the media are blamed for making the spectacle in the first place. The public are stoic and resolute about this. My trip during the week to work and back home involves, Overground, Tube and Bus and you just have to carry on on and be defiant.......though I must say, when I get home and my son tells me he's been so worried what can you do ?, he sees it on the news and is affected by it .

It is a war, these ' people' aren't open to negotiation in any shape of form, their premise is the destruction of western civilisation.



Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!

[DrN]

I agree, the news reports coming in now say this man was wearing a bomb belt. would you do anything different if you were police in that position? probably not.

the media do seem to be hyping everything up, of course the 7th july events were pretty bad, but not as bad as other terrorist attacks elsewhere in the world. on the one hand they're urging everyone to be calm and return to normal, on the other they're bombarding us with terror news and speculation thats enough to make anyone nervous. the problem with instant media is that you get the news before anyone knows whats going on. all sorts of rumours get turned into printable 'fact'.

[chris]

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx

[DrN]

That made me laugh out loud! more of this please! perhaps my stress is just tipping over ...

[DrN]

its really sad that race crimes are rising in the capital (and presumably elsewhere in teh UK too), although I suppose its not surprising. its seems for every muslim leader who condemns the blasts and states 'Islam is peace' there is another who says its open war on britain in retaliation for our foreign policies, and who appear to condone the attacks. Its certainly difficult to forgive the attitides of those in pakistan who praised the bomber who had origins in their village, and called him a hero. how are the general public supposed to know who thinks what? or more importantly, what proportion of the UK muslim population agree with which opinion? I think anger towards the muslim community in britain will only make those who are angry even angrier, and might even breed a new generation of bombers. it feels like everything is spinning out of control.

[David Sparkman]

First a thought about the muslims, and what their attitude should be:
Here in the states we had two movements, one the black panthers who were for war on "whitey", and second one headed by ML King who felt that the blacks whould be destroyed if they fought against the establishment. King opted for peaceful resistance ideas of Henry David Throu (sp). History records that the Black Panthers were betrayed to the police and imprisoned. King's movement succeeded in the face of overwhelming opposition.

If the good people in Islam don't take a stand, and purge the bad ones out of their mist, they and their religion will be greatly hurt. Problems are that the troublemakers are rich and hide behind their wealth. The bombers were suckers, pulled in to giving their lives for an unworthy cause by the clerics that want to teach hate for their own power.

We are walking a fine line trying to keep the oil supply flowing while encouraging the oil producing countries to supress these (sorry BBC) terrorists. What do you think would happen if
1) Terrorists took over a major oil country and decided to stop selling oil to the heathens?
2) Decided to continue selling oil but at a much higher price?
3) Sold oil but with strings attached?

At a certain point, I am afrain the rest of the world would band together and take over the oil fields. The fact is that the modern industrial world cannot live without the energy of the middle east. Deprive us of that and people will die of the cold, lose their jobs as industry and production scale back, and suffer as we did in the 1930's. No country's leader is going to let that happen due to fundimental Islam.

The problem is not the bombers themselves. They die quickly enough. You have to cut off the part of the orginization that sactions those actions, that encourages and promotes those actions, and calls them heros.

Here in the states we have laws against anarcists and inciting anarcy. The religious guys have been getting a pass on this, and that has to change.

David

[VAlibrarian]

HMMMMMM. I don't want to get overly political here, but I am in partial disagreement with you, Mr. Sparkman.  I dislike the terrorists as much as anyone does, because they seek to destroy all that I personally hold dear: women's rights, secular governance, religious and racial tolerance, and progress in the areas of education, science, and culture. Did I leave anything out that Al-Qaeda wants to destroy?

I do however actually believe that the nations of the Middle East have a right to name their price for the oil they sell, as long as that decision is made by their citizens rather than a terrorist cell. Oil is the only natural resource that they possess, and we in the United States are foolish to blow it out of the tailpipes of our Hummers as if it would last forever. It is composed of fossilized biological material from millions of years ago, and when it runs out we will wish we could buy it at $100 per gallon.  

The problem with our economic arrangement with the Islamic world is that it is not sustainable. We need them only for oil and desire the lowest possible price. When the oil runs out we will gladly watch them starve. They despise us for our irreverent,  immoral ways yet envy our wealth and conveniences. It is a frightening thing. Terrorism is the worst possible development because it distracts us and them from the need to devise a sustainable model for economic survival and progress when time is short.

chris wiegard

[David Sparkman]

Chris,

The price of oil is set by a delicate balance of what is possible, and what is best for the long term. Sure the buyer argues for a lower price and the seller for a higher price. But you have the posibility to wreck the economies of Japan, the EC and the US and Canada, not to mention Korea and a number of smaller states. China and India are not quite so dependent, but soon could be.

Most of the exporting countries realise that if the price goes too high too quickly, the result will be a recession and a decrease in orders for  oil. Terriorists do their thing for political reasons. Should they disrupt world economy, we in the industralized world may begin to act in a very uncivilized way rather than roll over and accept our fate.

There are other posibilities including a very very large reserve under the gulf of Mexico. As the price of oil continues to rise, we will come to terms with our enviromental and technological problems and tap into that reserve. Problem is that it will take many years to get enough drilling platforms build and functioning.

The most probable fuse to ignite a world crises would be chaos in Saudi Arabia. And that is one of Ben Laden's major goals. I don't see this as political I see it as looking at history and extrapoling to the future.

David

[VAlibrarian]

I grant you that disruptions could be horrible if oil supplies were cut down by a substantial amount. I do not expect an oil embargo because most of the oil producing nations do not desire one- they prefer to ship it and get paid.  But again, the nations of the middle east only have one resource. If those lines on a map mean anything, the oil belongs to them until they ship it to us. If we believe in free markets like we say we do, then Nations have a right to ask for a higher price if they can get us to pay it. Nations, not terrorists.

I note also that we in the West have had 30 years to think about the last oil crisis. We have done nothing to prevent a recurrence despite our obvious vulnerability- in fact we use far more oil than we did in the 1970s and drive vehicles that are no more fuel efficient than the ones we drove then despite knowing how to build vehicles that are much more efficient.
I am not saying that the terrorists have the right to destroy governments and disrupt economic systems in order to make us suffer. But I am saying that we have been foolish to put ourselves in such danger through sheer self-indulgence.

chris wiegard

[blind_dog]

The shoot to kill policy the police have implemented has sparked a bit of a debate here in the UK.  Was kind of wondering what folks from places around the world make of that one.

Personally, I am all for it.  I'm not saying its a good idea to turn into the kind of society where there is an armed police man on every corner.  But surely public safety comes first?

An article on the shoot to kill policy here newbielink:http://www.weeklygripe.co.uk/a104.asp [nonactive]