[Geezer]

I would hope that is had been proven to be 100% effective but it came with a warning that woman were not to stop having pap smears. Although I have known Australia to be the testing ground for various chemical, medical etc experiements, so if no other country has heard of this maybe Australians are just the 'test shop dummies' for this vaccine?!

This is also available in the US. I don't know much about it, but I seem to recall it's an immunization against a particular virus that can lead to cervical cancer.

[echochartruse]

yes difficult to find info on the vaccine, here's some
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cervical_cancer

[echochartruse]

Actually, there are cures for some forms of cancer. Surgery is an obvious one, but drugs like cisplatin can destroy some cancers completely.

I've just found info on cisplatin.

Is that's why paw paw is not known to cancer patients?
With Paw paw, instead of drug companies taking the royalties for the cancer treatment, we may have to give the royalties to the farmers to grow the fruit.....Then we would have to set security fences around the perimiter of the farm, then employ security guards to transport it to the factory where it can be bottled and perscribed by doctors bought from chemists.

Nearly all of the university’s royalty income comes from cisplatin and carboplatin, and nearly 20 percent of RCT revenues comes from the two drugs.2 Because of this monetary component to the lawsuit, many people—including officials at other universities having contracts with RCT,

[Bored chemist]

Echochartreuse.
Do you know that there are at least two anti cancer drugs extracted from plants?
The pharmaceutical companies would be quite happy to make money from paw paw in the same way they make it from yew trees and the Madagascar periwinkle.

Also, there are other reasons for establishing what the active ingredient is. Of course, it helps get the dose right and that's always a good thing.
It also means they can develop derivatives with better efficiency and fewer side effects.

[echochartruse]

I know that there are more than two componants of natural plants that is used in manufacturing drugs and it is apparent you do too.

I'm all for researching these componants but not for engineering the plants change prior to or at all before we fully understand all the plants componants and how they effect us.
Not to the extent of distroying these plants through environment mismanagement, corporate greed etc only to promote the manufactured, processed version able to be synthisised from knowing and studying the natural componants.

The researchers have genetically altered plants into create chemicals they do not naturally make. The plant-produced compounds include molecules similar to cancer drugs................According to O”Connor, the resulting alkaloids vary only slightly from the compounds the periwinkle makes naturally, but such tweaks could prove useful for improving medicines that plants already make.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/madagascar-periwinkle-engineered-to-produce-anti-cancer-compound_100144659.html


Note the words 'similar' and 'vary only slightly' (above)

Science has the key componant in plants to treat cancer but finds a need to be able to manufacture it.

[Bored chemist]

The compounds used definitely differ from those grown normally.
They may "vary only slightly" but the differences are bigger than the difference between methanol and ethanol. Do you understand that "similar" chemicals can have very different effects.

There's also the fact that the plants contain other, unwanted materials which only contribute toxicity without adding effectiveness. These are removed in the purification steps so modification of the plant "before we fully understand all the plants componants and how they effect us." is a non-issue. The other components are removed.

Whether the changes in chemistry are done in the plant or in the laboratory hardly matters.

[Variola]

Exactly, the difference between a drug working or not can be as little as 1 amino acid.
There is also the bioavailablity of a drug to consider, and the toxicity effects, What happens on the skin can be vastly different from the effect inside the body.
This is not just about the faults of the pharmaceutical companies, of which there are many, this is about biochemistry and the body.

[Geezer]

Exactly

All this agreeing stuff is making me a bit nervous  []

I sense an impending attack. I'm heading for the underground bunker right now.

[Variola]

Exactly

All this agreeing stuff is making me a bit nervous  []


I sense an impending attack. I'm heading for the underground bunker right now.

Who from me or the BC??? []

[echochartruse]

If it works why fix (synthetically manufacture) it?

Toxic substances found in various flu vaccines include:

    * Dangerous levels of mercury in the form of thimerosal, a deadly preservative that is 50 times more toxic than regular mercury
    * Ethylene glycol (antifreeze)
    * Formaldehyde – a known cancer-causing agent
    * Neomycin and streptomycin (antibiotics)
    * Aluminum -- a neurotoxin linked to Alzheimer’s disease
    * Polysorbate 80 (Tween80™) – which can cause severe allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis
    * Phenol (carbolic acid)
    * Resin and gelatin - known to cause allergic reactions
    * Triton X100 (detergent)

So every year that you get a flu shot, you are taking a risk that one or more of these substances added by science to make it easier to manufacture will cause a problem in your body.

What good is adding mercury in flu vaccine to anyone?

Here is an example of a vaccine that has been banned in Australia due to causing convulsions, allergies and death. Now America is spending $2B to engineer plants to produce the vaccine quicker, even though it has been scientifically studied to find it is as effective as a placebo. Wall street expect the returns to double.

Flu vaccination ban goes national after fever, convulsions in children] Seasonal flu vaccinations have been suspended in Australia for all children under the age of five. The suspension comes after 23 children in Western Australia were admitted to hospitals with convulsions after receiving flu injections.

“To meet anticipated demand, manufacturers are producing between 160 million and 165 million doses this year, more than ever before … The CDC is accelerating development of two new tools to speed production of vaccine … One involves optimizing seed strains of virus used to make vaccine

Improved manufacturing techniques and invention of new adjuvants have greatly advanced the development of influenza vaccines, the fastest growing segment in the adult vaccine area, which is expected to generate $4 billion in sales by 2012.

One way to escape the recession OR lower populations!

So you say, it is NOT OK to take a natural, out of the garden product, as it may have an amino acid that may adversely effect us! [] But it is OK to synthesise and add toxic additives and genetically modify the plant so science has control over what we ingest  []

http://organichealthadviser.com/archives/if-the-h1n1-swine-flu-vaccine-is-safe-then-why-are-so-many-people-being-hurt-by-it

The chief of The Swedish Institute for Infectious Disease Control (SMI), Annika Linde, says in the article: "- The Vaccine is principally natural to the body. The mercury was necessary but the amounts are very small.

 

An independent academic who monitors social issues yesterday filed a lawsuit in the Central Administration Court against the Government Pharmaceutical Organisation and top health officials for failing to have human trials to test the type-A (H1N1) influenza virus vaccine following reports that six people had died after receiving the vaccine.

'H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccine Insert Admits It Causes Guillain-Barre Syndrome, Vasculitis, Paralysis, Anaphylactic Shock And Death.'http://thebirdflupandemic.com/archives/h1n1-swine-flu-vaccine-insert-admits-it-causes-guillain-barre-syndrome-vasculitis-paralysis-anaphylactic-shock-and-death

The above link may be useful for those who take the vaccination and may like to guard against any adverse effects from it.

$65m of swine flu vaccines may be destroyed in Australia as the vaccine is only effective for 6 months and still the companies make hugh profits

[Bored chemist]

"So every year that you get a flu shot, you are taking a risk that one or more of these substances added by science to make it easier to manufacture will cause a problem in your body."
And it has been shown that the risk is small; less than the risk from catching flu.

"What good is adding mercury in flu vaccine to anyone? "
It acts as a preservative; the fact that thiomersal is more toxic them metallic mercury is a bit of a red herring since it's mercury compounds that are toxic; the free metal isn't very poisonous.

"Here is an example of a vaccine that has been banned in Australia "
Nope; it has been suspended. There's a difference. Also, it has only been suspended for use in young children.

"Now America is spending $2B to engineer plants to produce the vaccine quicker"
Since most Americans are not young children this is perfectly reasonable.

"even though it has been scientifically studied to find it is as effective as a placebo."
A citation would help there.

"So you say, it is NOT OK to take a natural, out of the garden product, as it may have an amino acid that may adversely effect us!"
Nope, nobody said that.
I said that it would make sense to use a purified product rather than the mixture of compounds formed in a plant.
(Incidentally, do you put sugar in your tea, or do you stir it wit a bit of sugar cane until it is sweet enough? The idea is the same)

The other thing I said was that you can take something from a plant and modify it to make it more effective.
(When you get a headache, do you chew on willow bark or take an aspirin?)

"But it is OK to synthesise and add toxic additives and genetically modify the plant so science has control over what we ingest  "
A couple of points. First all things are toxic. Secondly "science" is an abstract concept and therefore cannot control what you ingest. You, on the other hand, can read the labels on things and only eat what you choose to.
If you are eating toxic things that's your choice.

"'H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccine Insert Admits It Causes Guillain-Barre Syndrome, Vasculitis, Paralysis, Anaphylactic Shock And Death.'http://thebirdflupandemic.com/archives/h1n1-swine-flu-vaccine-insert-admits-it-causes-guillain-barre-syndrome-vasculitis-paralysis-anaphylactic-shock-and-death"

Well spotted; all drugs and treatments have side effects. People generally are honest enough to publish them - for example on the page you have cited.
So what?

"$65m of swine flu vaccines may be destroyed in Australia as the vaccine is only effective for 6 months and still the companies make hugh profits"
There are roughly 20 million Australians so that's about 3$ each.
Ask someone with flu if they would have been prepared to pay 3$ to avoid it. I think most would be happy to pay a lot more than that.

[echochartruse]

I had to looked for the side effects and eventually found them but what Dr. is going to read out the list of concerns when administering the vaccination?
Choice,
That's right some don't think they have a choice. Here only 18% of the population took the vaccine and even  though there were a few deaths and other complications, I would imagine that a large proportion of the 18% didn't realize they had a choice or were not given the opportunity to say 'No" and still a profit was made.

We do use natural sugar cane here. although we don't use sugar often, if we use sugar at all. much better than the manufactured sweetener substitute such as the killer sacrin or whatever brand. Where do I buy willow bark please? I chew cloves if I have a tooth ache and I use Radium weed. why hasn't everyone been told of the natural method? why is the natural method called 'alternative' when firstly natural cures should be prime and synthesized should be alternate - in my opinion.

[BenV]

Cloves are definitely good for toothache, but also contain a tumour promoting chemical. BC's point is that a medicalised version would have this chemical removed.

[echochartruse]

Cloves are definitely good for toothache, but also contain a tumour promoting chemical. BC's point is that a medicalised version would have this chemical removed.

Has cloves ever been responsible for tumors?

The primary chemical constituents include eugenol, caryophyllene, and tannins. Cloves are said to have a positive effect on stomach ulcers, vomiting, flatulence, and to stimulate the digestive system. It has powerful local antiseptic and mild anesthetic actions. Japanese researchers have discovered that like many spices, clove contains antioxidants. Antioxidants help prevent the cell damage that scientists believe eventually causes cancer. On the other hand, in laboratory tests, the chemical eugenol, has been found to be a weak tumor promoter, making clove one of many healing herbs with both pro- and anti-cancer effects. At this point, scientists aren't sure which way the balance tilts. Until they are, anyone with a history of cancer should not use medicinal amounts of clove. For otherwise healthy non-pregnant, non-nursing adults, powdered clove is considered nontoxic.

"it has been proved not to be carcinogenic"

Eugenol is a natural phenolic compound that is the main component of clove oil and it is present in reasonable amounts in several other spices like basil, cinnamon and bay leaves. It is used as antiseptic, analgesic and anti-bacterial agent in traditional medicine in Asia as well as in dentistry as main ingredient of cavity filling cement. Several biological activities of eugenol have been described in literature [8,9] and it has been proved not to be carcinogenic neither mutagenic

so why change it?

[echochartruse]

many things eaten taken in high doses will cause cancer.
such as Fluoride which is added to our drinking water and food so governments can close dental facilities.

Yet the practice has always been controversial, primarily due to fluoride's undisputed status as a highly reactive neurotoxin. More recent studies suggest that ingestion of fluoride can damage the thyroid gland and reduce children's IQ levels. In 2006, a study published in Cancer Causes and Control found that exposure to large amounts of fluoridated water made seven-year-old boys four times more likely to develop a rare bone cancer known as childhood osteosarcoma.

In the new study, conducted on behalf of The Globe and Mail, researchers from Statistics Canada compared the tooth decay rates in the provinces of Ontario, which has Canada's highest fluoridation rate, and Quebec, which has the lowest. Using data on more than 5,000 people, the researchers found no clinically significant difference.

Science seems eager to change, modify and engineer our natural resources without consideration of their long term effect.
As it seems science is run by the corporate $ and not ethics.

So science suggests cloves to be altered genetically because it has a component, not proven to cause cancer but would be more saleable if the component was extracted genetically and made into a pill, then on the other hand fluoride, know to cause bone cancer, is more poisonous than lead and just slightly less poisonous than arsenic, causes chalky teeth etc is added to our water supply.

Epidemiological evidence shows that fluoride causes cancer.
http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303222823

[Bored chemist]

"what Dr. is going to read out the list of concerns when administering the vaccination?"
One who doesn't want to get struck off for failing to obtain informed consent.

"why is the natural method called 'alternative' "
There are famously two sorts of medicine. That which works; and the alternative.

"such as the killer sacrin "
Has saccharin ever killed anyone?
If not, then you are talking utter bollocks.

" Here only 18% of the population took the vaccine and even  though there were a few deaths and other complications, "
This
http://www.msf.org.uk/measles_epidemic_southern_africa_malawi_20100604.news
is what happens if you don't have a vaccination program.

"still a profit was made."
What's wrong with making a profit?
Since you have access to the web I presume that you have some source of income. Would you have that if nobody was making a profit?


"I would imagine that a large proportion of the 18% didn't realize they had a choice or were not given the opportunity to say 'No""

Once again, you are accusing a vast number of doctors of malpractice. I presume you have no evidence for this slander.

"Where do I buy willow bark please? "
To whom do you plan to feed this toxic material?
Why not use the extracted and derivatised form- aspirin? It's converted back to the active form in the body. It's less damaging to the stomach. It comes in well characterised doses and it's cheap.

"natural cures should be prime"
So, vaccination, which uses the natural immune system is a good thing right? Or are you contradicting yourself?

"Science seems eager to change, modify and engineer our natural resources without consideration of their long term effect."
More slander.
What evidence can you offer for this? After all the reason for the changes is usually well documented (in the way that the change from willow bark to aspirin is explained by the reasons I gave earlier).

"many things eaten taken in high doses will cause cancer.
such as Fluoride which is added to our drinking water and food so governments can close dental facilities."
If you are going to go on about fluoride please start another thread so that cobblers doesn't get mixed up with the other cobblers.
In any event, don't cite pages which say things like "Even at the level they use to fluoridate your public water supply, usually at the rate of about 1 part fluoride for every million parts of water (1 ppm) by weight, it causes severe problems" because that's obvious nonsense.
If it did, we would all be dead.

There's discussion of this gibberish elsewhere, for example here.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=25867.0
and it doesn't achieve anything to go over it again.

Incidentally, did it occur to you that people chose governments which fluoridate water in order that they (and their kids) suffer less from tooth decay.

"I chew cloves if I have a tooth ache "
If there was more fluoride in your drinking water, perhaps you wouldn't need the cloves.

[echochartruse]

again...

In the new study, conducted on behalf of The Globe and Mail, researchers from Statistics Canada compared the tooth decay rates in the provinces of Ontario, which has Canada's highest fluoridation rate, and Quebec, which has the lowest. Using data on more than 5,000 people, the researchers found no clinically significant difference.

The Healing Effects of Forests

Forests -- and other natural, green settings -- can reduce stress, improve moods, reduce anger and aggressiveness and increase overall happiness. Forest visits may also strengthen our immune system by increasing the activity and number of natural killer cells that destroy cancer cells.

bottle that!

[echochartruse]

"such as the killer sacrin "
Has saccharin ever killed anyone?
If not, then you are talking utter bollocks.

The researchers note that the findings gibe with other emerging evidence—including a study published last month in the American Heart Association's journal, Circulation—that shows people who down diet drinks are at a higher risk for obesity  and metabolic syndrome (a medley of medical problems such as abdominal fat, high blood pressure and insulin resistance that puts people at risk for heart disease and diabetes).

please remember doctors are human and make mistakes.

[Bored chemist]

"people who down diet drinks are at a higher risk for obesity"

So what?
People who down diet drinks are quite often on diets.
People on diets tend to be overweight.
people who are overweight tend to suffer from metabolic syndrome.

Anyway. I'm still waiting for the evidence that saccharin ever killed anyone.

Also, if you don't think fluoride is good for teeth then it doesn't make sense to say "Fluoride which is added to our drinking water and food so governments can close dental facilities."
If it didn't work they couldn't close the dentists down.
And you forgot to include this quote from the same page you cited.
"All of Canada's dental associations and its national health agency, Health Canada, officially endorse water fluoridation. In response to the Globe and Mail report, Health Canada immediately sought to cast doubt on the study, pointing out that it failed to assess individual fluoride intake and correlate that with cavity rates."
The best evidence seems to me to suggest that, since many people use fluoride containing toothpaste, the effect of adding it to the water is less significant than it used to be.

Obviously, I can't bottle a trip to the forest.
But if you buy aspirin cheaply rather than wasting time and effort getting willow bark and chewing on it (in order to get a less effective remedy with worse side effects) then you will have more time and money left to go on vacation.
What did you think your point was?

It's not as if a bottle of cloves transports me to the Spice Islands or whatever.
It's an argument in favour of planting trees in parks (which I wholeheartedly support); it's not an argument in favour of eating them.

[echochartruse]

"people who down diet drinks are at a higher risk for obesity"

So what?
People who down diet drinks are quite often on diets.
People on diets tend to be overweight.
people who are overweight tend to suffer from metabolic syndrome.

I think you assume too much.

Anyway. I'm still waiting for the evidence that saccharin ever killed anyone.

the diseases it causes are life threatening.

Also, if you don't think fluoride is good for teeth then it doesn't make sense to say "Fluoride which is added to our drinking water and food so governments can close dental facilities."
If it didn't work they couldn't close the dentists down.
And you forgot to include this quote from the same page you cited.
"All of Canada's dental associations and its national health agency, Health Canada, officially endorse water fluoridation. In response to the Globe and Mail report, Health Canada immediately sought to cast doubt on the study, pointing out that it failed to assess individual fluoride intake and correlate that with cavity rates."
The best evidence seems to me to suggest that, since many people use fluoride containing toothpaste, the effect of adding it to the water is less significant than it used to be.

with all doubt being cast on reports, studies and research, without reports,studies or research to back up the doubt. what do you think?

Obviously, I can't bottle a trip to the forest.

give it time...

But if you buy aspirin cheaply rather than wasting time and effort getting willow bark and chewing on it (in order to get a less effective remedy with worse side effects) then you will have more time and money left to go on vacation.

I actually don't take aspirin but if there was an option/choice which there is not, I may prefer the natural garden variety and so may many others.

What did you think your point was?

choice, why do we have to have a processed version if we can grow it naturally ourselves.

It's not as if a bottle of cloves transports me to the Spice Islands or whatever.
It's an argument in favour of planting trees in parks (which I wholeheartedly support); it's not an argument in favour of eating them.

We find natural cures etc but still we feel the need to synthesise and manufacture/make the components for these cures.