[DonQuichotte (OP)]

The Exclusive Biological nature of Evolution via the natural selection   :

Hi,folks :

The nature of Darwin's theory of evolution via the natural selection  is only and exclusively biological :

My question is as follows :

Why then is the theory of evolution extended to cultures, societies, religions or spirituality , politics, philosophy, economics, intellect, psychology, human consciousness, ....?

Thanks, appreciate indeed .

All the best .

[cheryl j]

I think what evolution has in common with the other concepts you are referring to is just the selection process that is similar For example, in the market place, products that are useful or desirable with a price people are willing to pay, sell. The company makes money and continues to exist, may reinvest the profits, and expand. Products that are not desirable, don't sell, and the company goes out of business. You can find similar selection processes in politics, television, etc.

[CliffordK]

Perhaps you could think of evolution like mathematics.

We wouldn't exist if there wasn't first prehistoric bacteria, prehistoric amoebas, fish, amphibians, early mammals, primates, and about 5 to 10 million years of hominid evolution.

Likewise, in mathematics, it is difficult to learn calculus if you don't have a foundation first of simple numbers, then addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, algebra, trigonometry, and finally calculus.  Perhaps not everything has to be done in quite the same order, but it would be hard to study calculus without first knowing how to add.

Perhaps the scientific method and the development of engineering is similar.  So much is based on, and requires previous work to build something new.  Try as much as he could, Leonardo couldn't quite get powered flight down.  It first required the invention of the steam engine a century or two later, then another century for the invention of the internal combustion engine.  Then another half a century of development, and the Wright Brothers used a small gas engine to power their first plane.  A bit more than a half century more, and jets replaced prop planes...  and etc.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

I think what evolution has in common with the other concepts you are referring to is just the selection process that is similar For example, in the market place, products that are useful or desirable with a price people are willing to pay, sell. The company makes money and continues to exist, may reinvest the profits, and expand. Products that are not desirable, don't sell, and the company goes out of business. You can find similar selection processes in politics, television, etc.

I know what you are talking about :
I just think that both the biological evolution and the other kinds of evolutions : economic, intellectual, cultural, political, spiritual ,....are 2 different categories of evolution which occur at different levels and with other different set of "rules" : so, we cannot just copy and apply biological evolution to the non-biological evolutionary processes ,otherwise that would be just like confusing 2 different categories of evolution with each other ,otherwise we should be able to predict social, cultural, economic, political , ethical , ....developments with total accuracy , if we take into consideration the very  mechanical  deterministic nature of the biological evolution we would apply to those  different  human areas :

See how even modern maths ,not to mention quantum mechanics , the theory of chaos ,the relativity theory ...had kissed absolute determinism and absolute predictability goodbye :

See the following top docus on the matter : very enlightening indeed : fascinating :

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/high-anxieties-the-mathematics-of-chaos/

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/dangerous-knowledge/

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Perhaps you could think of evolution like mathematics.

We wouldn't exist if there wasn't first prehistoric bacteria, prehistoric amoebas, fish, amphibians, early mammals, primates, and about 5 to 10 million years of hominid evolution.

Likewise, in mathematics, it is difficult to learn calculus if you don't have a foundation first of simple numbers, then addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, algebra, trigonometry, and finally calculus.  Perhaps not everything has to be done in quite the same order, but it would be hard to study calculus without first knowing how to add.

Perhaps the scientific method and the development of engineering is similar.  So much is based on, and requires previous work to build something new.  Try as much as he could, Leonardo couldn't quite get powered flight down.  It first required the invention of the steam engine a century or two later, then another century for the invention of the internal combustion engine.  Then another half a century of development, and the Wright Brothers used a small gas engine to power their first plane.  A bit more than a half century more, and jets replaced prop planes...  and etc.

What you said refers to some view regarding some of  the   historic accumulated human knowledge ,skills , experiences ....throughout the history of mankind ,at both the individual and collective levels ,which do undergo some sort of evolution , progress and growth indeed.

But , i  am mainly talking about different categories of evolution though, and whether we can or not apply those mechanisms of the biological evolution via the natural selection to cultures,religions,  economics , society, politics, thought, human consciousness , ethics  .... : see my post here above on the matter as a reply to the post of our friend here above  .

Important notice and warning from history : we should be very careful in trying to apply ,if ever , the mechanisms of the biological evolution via the natural selection to human races,cultures, religions ,societies ....as history taught us : that's a very dangerous mine field :  i am referring to those despicable and refuted racist Eugenics theories and also to social Darwinism  for example , as well .

The nazis did also justify their persecution of jews via social darwinism, eugenics ...so: be careful .

Second : See how the evolution of human epistemology and of religions had finally given birth to the scientific method as such : see "What's the real origin of the scientific method ?" thread  of mine in general science forum in this site by the way ,

See those fascinating top docus here above regarding the maths of chaos and how they proved the fact , among other things , that absolute predictability or absolute determinism are history .

In other words : we should be able to absolutely predict social, cultural, ethical, political, religious or spiritual  , intellectual, psychological ....evolutions , if we apply to them those mechanical deterministic mechanisms of the biological  evolution via the natural selection ,but modern maths of chaos had kissed absolute predictability and absolute determinism goodbye as those above mentioned top docus proved ,so.

 

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Well ,folks ?

What do you think about the above ?

And what do you think about the fact , for example, that materialist scientists such as Richard Dawkins and co . do try to apply the mechanical deterministic material mechanisms of the biological evolution via the natural selection to religions and spirituality , to cultures, ethics, society , politics, economics ,to human consciousness  .....?

Thanks, appreciate indeed

Take care

[cheryl j]

I just think that both the biological evolution and the other kinds of evolutions : economic, intellectual, cultural, political, spiritual ,....are 2 different categories of evolution which occur at different levels and with other different set of "rules" : so, we cannot just copy and apply biological evolution to the non-biological evolutionary processes ,otherwise that would be just like confusing 2 different categories of evolution with each other ,otherwise we should be able to predict social, cultural, economic, political , ethical , ....developments with total accuracy , if we take into consideration the very  mechanical  deterministic nature of the biological evolution we would apply to those  different  human areas :

Well,  the mechanism is very different. There is conscious design or at least guess work in marketing a product. Natural selection involves random mutations that may or may not be beneficial.

And I'm not sure I would call biology completely deterministic or predictable. It could be argued that if you "re-started" the Earth with the exact same chemical conditions, you might not end up with the same kinds and numbers of species that exist today. There is no proof that an octopus or an aardvark exists because it had to. The weird variety of life that exists or has ever existed on Earth seems to suggest that many biological outcomes were possible. Maybe there's no way way to prove that either. But I would say that evolution is not necessarily more predictable than political, economic, or social events.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

 author=cheryl j link=topic=48671.msg416612#msg416612 date=1377041873]

I just think that both the biological evolution and the other kinds of evolutions : economic, intellectual, cultural, political, spiritual ,....are 2 different categories of evolution which occur at different levels and with other different set of "rules" : so, we cannot just copy and apply biological evolution to the non-biological evolutionary processes ,otherwise that would be just like confusing 2 different categories of evolution with each other ,otherwise we should be able to predict social, cultural, economic, political , ethical , ....developments with total accuracy , if we take into consideration the very  mechanical  deterministic nature of the biological evolution we would apply to those  different  human areas

.

Quote from : Cheryl :Well,  the mechanism is very different. There is conscious design or at least guess work in marketing a product. Natural selection involves random mutations that may or may not be beneficial.

Materialistic evolutionists consider the following as a "fact " they have never been able to prove it to be true as such though  : that human consciousness was just the product of the evolutionary complexity of the human brain = the evolved brain created consciousness = emergent property theory : that 's why they justify that "fact" that they can apply those mechanisms of the biological evolution to economics, religions, cultures, intellect , politics ....

What do you think about that evolutionary biological genetic approach of society, cultures, consciousness, ethics, politics, economics ...?

And I'm not sure I would call biology completely deterministic or predictable. It could be argued that if you "re-started" the Earth with the exact same chemical conditions, you might not end up with the same kinds and numbers of species that exist today. There is no proof that an octopus or an aardvark exists because it had to. The weird variety of life that exists or has ever existed on Earth seems to suggest that many biological outcomes were possible. Maybe there's no way way to prove that either. But I would say that evolution is not necessarily more predictable than political, economic, or social events.

Materialistic evolutionists , especially some mathematicians , think they can predict everything , considering the alleged deterministic mechanical nature of the universe :

That mechanical deterministic Newtonian-Cartesian  paradigm in science is history though , as my above mentioned links show concerning the maths of chaos ...

But , many materialists just stick to that outdated and largely refuted mechanical deterministic world view : they cannot do otherwise in fact , considering the very mechanical deterministic nature of materialism itself by the way .
Darwin's theory of evolution is all about the mechanical deterministic "blind ", random, purposeless, ...nature of the biological evolution also  ,so, in the sense that any mechanisms of evolution can only repeat themselves in their corresponding environment factors ,exactly like programmed software in a programmed computer .

What do you think about all that ?

Thanks, appreciate indeed

Kind regards

[grizelda]

The "corresponding environment factors" include geological states which incorporate chaotic behaviors (plate tectonics, volcanism ...). The species which evolve are those that are successful, and they compete with other successful species for the available resources. You couldn't reproduce the results if you tried; ergo - natural selection.

[alancalverd]

A depressingly common fallacy is that there is a "theory of evolution". Evolution is an observation that things change with time. There are many theories that purport to explain how a particular evolution occurred but the only common thread in biology is that there is a random element in genetics, and some variants are better adapted than others to survive and prosper in a particular ecological niche. Indeed Darwin said so, and no more than that. Since the biological environment is itself partly biological, interactive, bounded, and significantly unpredictable, there is no usefully predictive theory of biological evolution.     

Human systems, in contrast, are mostly depressingly predictable. Unfortunately economists, politicians and generals, the very people whose predictions affect our welfare and happiness, are supremely incompetent at prediction - or indeed anything else, for the most part. 

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

The "corresponding environment factors" include geological states which incorporate chaotic behaviors (plate tectonics, volcanism ...). The species which evolve are those that are successful, and they compete with other successful species for the available resources. You couldn't reproduce the results if you tried; ergo - natural selection.

yeah, ok : deterministic mechanical biological evolution in the sense that certain mutations , evolution ...can take only place under certain circumstances ...and not under others ...

P.S.: I do not buy that "random " ,"blind " ..character of evolution ,simply because that makes no sense , not even in maths .

There are  no such things such as random, coincidence, accident ...

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

A depressingly common fallacy is that there is a "theory of evolution". Evolution is an observation that things change with time. There are many theories that purport to explain how a particular evolution occurred but the only common thread in biology is that there is a random element in genetics, and some variants are better adapted than others to survive and prosper in a particular ecological niche. Indeed Darwin said so, and no more than that. Since the biological environment is itself partly biological, interactive, bounded, and significantly unpredictable, there is no usefully predictive theory of biological evolution.   

 

There are no such things such as random , coincidence ...come on: see above .

Human systems, in contrast, are mostly depressingly predictable. Unfortunately economists, politicians and generals, the very people whose predictions affect our welfare and happiness, are supremely incompetent at prediction - or indeed anything else, for the most part.

"Human systems", as you put it , or social,economic, ethical, political ,cultural...developments are not absolutely predictable ,come on : the theory of chaos had kissed that absolute and outdated predictability and determinism goodbye ...

[alancalverd]

I strongly advise you to understand the meaning of "random" before dabbling in science.

31415 is not a random sequence: it is the digits of pi, and the next digit is entirely predictable if you know the source.

31415 is a random sequence: it is the throws of a die and the next digit can be any number from 1 to 6, if you know the source.

[dlorde]

..the theory of chaos had kissed that absolute and outdated predictability and determinism goodbye ...

Not quite - chaos theory involves systems that are deterministic but not predictable.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

..the theory of chaos had kissed that absolute and outdated predictability and determinism goodbye ...

Not quite - chaos theory involves systems that are deterministic but not predictable.

Did you watch "High anxieties-the mathematics of chaos " from topdocumentaryfilms.com docu i provided you with in the other thread ?

Why don't you tell me also ,while you are at it, how on earth can the mechanisms of the biological evolution be applied to the non-biological evolution ...absolutely ?

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

I strongly advise you to understand the meaning of "random" before dabbling in science.

31415 is not a random sequence: it is the digits of pi, and the next digit is entirely predictable if you know the source.

31415 is a random sequence: it is the throws of a die and the next digit can be any number from 1 to 6, if you know the source.

Ho, ho, hold your wild horses ,cowboy :

I talked about random as something "outside " of the existing variables, which therefore cannot exist thus

[alancalverd]

What, then, is your definition of "random"? It's a common word in science and mathematics, but you assert it is meaningless or at least not realised.

[dlorde]

Did you watch "High anxieties-the mathematics of chaos " from topdocumentaryfilms.com docu i provided you with in the other thread ?

Yup; I saw that one, and several others, a while ago (about 5 years ago). The books will give you more detail - I recommend 'Chaos' by James Gleick, 'Complexity' by M. Mitchell Waldrop, and 'The Jungles of Randomness' by Ivars Peterson for a rounded coverage of the field - although I hear Mandelbrot's 'Fractals and Chaos' is pretty good, and he is the original source... 

Why don't you tell me also ,while you are at it, how on earth can the mechanisms of the biological evolution be applied to the non-biological evolution ...absolutely ?

The biological mechanisms of ENS can't be applied (not directly, anyhow), but the underlying principle - replication with variation followed by selection; rinse & repeat - can be seen in many areas where change over time is characteristic; e.g. manufacturing, music, philosophy, software, even science itself. Not sure what you meant by 'absolutely'.

BTW, quantum mechanics contradicts your assertion that, "There are no such things such as random , coincidence ...". Radioactive decay is the canonical example of randomness, and coincidence is just two independent events occurring at roughly the same time or place.

[cheryl j]

Why don't you tell me also ,while you are at it, how on earth can the mechanisms of the biological evolution be applied to the non-biological evolution ...absolutely ?

I'd be interested to know where you draw the line between biological and non biological. Culture and history and economics are the result of human interactions and behavior, and human beings are animals. Therefore, they are in that respect biological phenomena, however complex and unpredictable.

For some reason this topic made me think of a CBC radio segment about whether or not scientists should try to bring back extinct species like the wooly mammoth. Regardless of the answer to that question, it's really quite bizarre to contemplate in terms of evolution - one species going extinct and another species evolving with a big enough brain and the ability and motivation to extract its DNA and bring that species back into existence.

[alancalverd]

Culture, history, economics, politics, call it what you like, they are manifestations of the product of individual biological need to optimise, exploit and dominate the local environment, convoluted with the herd requirement to collaborate.

For a simpler example, consider small cats, which live and hunt alone, and dogs, which survive better through pack hunting. If you herd a few cats together they may establish a dominance structure, but they won't collaborate.  The social order of a dog pack is complex, evolving, and task-dependent, just like apes: the alpha male may intervene in disputes but tactical decisions are taken by those best suited to the task.

Where herds are purely defensive (deer, chickens...) the internal social order is less fluid and the role of the alpha male becomes more of a president than a chairman.

Regrettably, British society seems to be moving towards the chicken model, dominated by cats.