[alancalverd]

A Greek says : All Greeks are ...liars haha : a famous paradox in logic.

No, it was a Cretan, quoted by a Greek. Please check your facts.

[cheryl j]

One of the peculiarities about PSI research is that conclusions are really based on process of elimination: "There is no other way this person could have known this; we've controlled for every variable we can think of, so it must be ESP."

This doesn't happen often in science, and when it does, it often leads to premature conclusions and outright blunders.

Like PSI research,  early studies of newly identified physical phenomenon, may only be able to show a correlation between two things beyond what would be statistically predicted by chance. If the the study is reproducible, though, it is usually followed by ones that ask more specific questions. At which point the researchers can say: "Okay, we still don't know how it works or the cause, but we can show it happens in this situation, but not that one. It is effected by A but not B. It is more likely to occur when C is also present."

Findings like these usually lead to some proposed mechanism or model, which if correct, should have some predictive value in future experiments.

But research on the paranormal never seems to advance past conclusions based on process of elimination, and there is never any more descriptive insight into the process or it's characteristics. 

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

One of the peculiarities about PSI research is that conclusions are really based on process of elimination: "There is no other way this person could have known this; we've controlled for every variable we can think of, so it must be ESP."

This doesn't happen often in science, and when it does, it often leads to premature conclusions and outright blunders.

Like PSI research,  early studies of newly identified physical phenomenon, may only be able to show a correlation between two things beyond what would be statistically predicted by chance. If the the study is reproducible, though, it is usually followed by ones that ask more specific questions. At which point the researchers can say: "Okay, we still don't know how it works or the cause, but we can show it happens in this situation, but not that one. It is effected by A but not B. It is more likely to occur when C is also present."

Findings like these usually lead to some proposed mechanism or model, which if correct, should have some predictive value in future experiments.

But research on the paranormal never seems to advance past conclusions based on process of elimination, and there is never any more descriptive insight into the process or it's characteristics.

See this : this scientist makes research on telepathy ...and he makes sense ,relatively speaking , despite what you said about him earlier :

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

What kindda silly "reasoning" is this then ? .....

.....You're telling a particular ordinary story humanity has been experiencing some perfectly natural forms or other of since day 1= no big deal = makes part of the human nature one should try to be alert of , should try to improve ,recognize as such ....Human deception and self-deceit are common knowledge since day 1 ,one must be aware of...

As I prefaced my comments with, stories and analogies are not proof. They are only illustrative.

Um, I think you are actually arguing my own point here. And because there is such a tendency to want to believe things for reasons other than it is likely to be true, the kind of evidence, how ones knows what one knows, and the transparency of the process to others is important.

Ironically, there is not much difference between some of the paranormal, immaterial things you mention - remote viewing, ESP - and some  conventional material process proposed in a  research study in which the author simply refused to publish his data or explain his methodology. If I don't know how he got the results he got, I can't evaluate them. I just have to take his word for it

.

See above .

One cannot  a-priori  just dismiss the potential existence of the paranormal ,just because it is extremely difficult to differentiate between that  and the rest , or just because the nature of the paranormal is , per definition, out of reach of conventional science ...

But , science can try to help us shed some light though on the alleged  paranormal
claims or experiences of some people ...as Sheldrake and others try to do : just take a look at the evidence delivered by the man , before a-priori concluding anything for that matter .

Sheldrake and others try to conduct some scientific research on telepathy ...as the video above shows ..

In short : There is much more to the universe than meets the eye .

Science just covers a tiny piece of reality , as i said earlier , just that apparent side of reality = there is a lot of dimensions out there that are way out of reach of science : dimensions we should try to approach via a holistic approach ..

So, to say that anything science cannot prove to be true as such is not, is the most stupid thing anyone can utter .....

P.S.: Materialism in science cannot , per definition, help you discover anything beyond the apparent material side of reality ,materialism in science which a-priori assumes the universe to be exclusively  material, ironically enough , a materialistic core assumption or materialistic meta-paradigm in science ,quantum physics had already debunked .

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

A Greek says : All Greeks are ...liars haha : a famous paradox in logic.

No, it was a Cretan, quoted by a Greek. Please check your facts

.

Never mind :  whatever ...

 That paradox applies to any x you can replace " Greek  " by : applies to an Arab  , an English , an alien  ..., a Martian,a cat  ...haha

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Only real true mystics can experience the relatively full scale of human consciousness or pure consciousness and beyond :

Rumi – “I have passed beyond all thoughts”

http://www.tm.org/blog/enlightenment/rumi/

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

I died once but no one shed a tear,
So if I live again I will know how to be.
You pursue me with your ignorant talk
Which to me sounds so empty.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Feminine Consciousness-Poetry of Rumi


http://feminineconsciousness.blogspot.com/2010/09/poetry-of-rumi.html

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

My heart, on this path words are hollow.
At the door of Union
You have to surrender yourself.
You will never soar to the sky
Where His birds fly
Unless you give up your wings.

...............



Whose feet are worthy
To enter the garden?
Whose eyes are worthy
Of the cypress and the jasmine?
The feet and eyes of a heart
That has been broken.


............


Every object and being in the universe is
a jar overflowing with wisdom and beauty,
a drop of the Tigris that cannot be contained by any skin.
Every jarful spills and makes the earth more shining,
as though covered in satin…”


.............


Make peace with the universe. Take joy in it.
It will turn to gold. Resurrection
will be now. Every moment,
a new beauty.”


...........


“Human beings are mines.
World-power means nothing. Only the unsayable,
jeweled inner life matters…”

..........................

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

“In your light I learn how to love.
In your beauty, how to make poems.
You dance inside my chest,
where no one sees you,
but sometimes I do,
and that sight becomes this art.”

.........


Don’t ask what love can make, or can do.
Look at the colors of the world!
Today, like every other day, we wake up empty, and scared.
Don’t open the door to the study and begin reading.
Take down a musical instrument and start to play.
Let the beauty you love be what you do.
There are a hundred ways to kneel and kiss the ground.


..........

Be patient.
Respond to every call that excites your spirit
Let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull
of what you really love
When you do things from your soul, a river moves through you,
Freshness and a deep joy are the signs…


...............

[dlorde]

One cannot  a-priori  just dismiss the potential existence of the paranormal ,just because it is extremely difficult to differentiate between that  and the rest , or just because the nature of the paranormal is , per definition, out of reach of conventional science ...

The question is how one can distinguish between a paranormal phenomenon, a claim of paranormal phenomenon, and a mundane phenomenon, if not by careful investigation & critical thinking, e.g. scientific method.

One cannot, a priori, assume that what is said to be paranormal is out of reach of conventional science. Much like alternative medicine, which, if tested and found to be efficacious, becomes medicine, so a claimed paranormal phenomenon, when tested, might be found to be a novel natural phenomenon - although this is extremely rare; the general course is that such phenomena are found to be misidentified mundane phenomena, nonexistent, fraudulent, or undemonstrable. Nevertheless, it can happen.

So, to say that anything science cannot prove to be true as such is not, is the most stupid thing anyone can utter .....[/b]

Has anyone really said this?

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Rumi and  SCIENCE :

The Science of Truth disappears in the Sufi's knowledge.
When will mankind understand this saying?

[Idries Shah, "The Way of the Sufi," pp. 102-108.]


. . . .and, finally, from "The Essential Rumi," by Coleman Barks:

THE MILK OF MILLENIA

. . . For hundreds of thousands of years
I have been dust grains
floating and flying in the will of the air,
often forgetting ever being
in that state, but in sleep
I migrate back. I spring loose
from the four-branched time-and-space cross,
this waiting room.

            I walk into a huge pasture.
            I nurse the milk of millenia.
            Everyone does this in different ways.
            Knowing that conscious decisions
            and personal memory
            are much too small a place to live,
            every human being streams at night
            into the loving nowhere, or during the day,
            in some absorbing work.


Rumi on Evolution:

HOW FAR YOU HAVE COME

    Originally you were clay. From being mineral, you became vegetable. From vegetable, you became animal, and from animal, man. During these periods man did not know where he was going, but he was being take on a long journey, nonetheless. And you have to go through a hundred different worlds yet.


I have again and again grown like grass;
I have experienced seven hundred and seventy moulds.
I died from minerality and became vegetable;
And from vegetativeness I died and became animal.
I died from animality and became man.
Then why fear disappearnace through death?
Next time I shall die
Bringing forth wings and feathers like angels:
After that soaring higher than angels -
What you cannot imagine. I shall be that.



http://spiritualnotreligious.blogspot.com/2011/05/rumi-on-religion-evoloution-and-science.html

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Rumi's Holistic Humanism :

http://www.codhill.com/ashraf-rhh.html

Mirza Iqbal Ashraf
Rumi’s Holistic Humanism :
Rumi’s Holistic Humanism: The Timeless Appeal of the Great Mystic Poet, presents the mystical poet's passionate conviction that "love is the strongest unifying force," and that its force is present everywhere and in everything. It may even encourage some to study the extraordinary work of Rumi that so often opens the heart of its adepts. For Rumi peace is the natural quest for a "whole person," and the human being's inclination to it arises from a natural universal order. In humankind's fight to root out conflict, violence and war, Rumi's holistic view of unconditional love may prove one of our best friends. Rumi's holistic approach to the phenomena of humankind is that the perimeters between the self and the universe are mitigated to the extent that the material body becomes indistinct of its typical cultural identity.

After so many centuries, Rumi today is as he was yesterday, a living icon of Unity and Love for the whole of mankind. Ashraf's holistic weaving of the many spiritual, philosophical, rational, scientific, and cultural "threads" that converge in Rumi's thought offers the beginning of a unitive language that humanists, rationalists, theists, non-theists, atheists, religious folks, artists, scientists—all thinkers of good will from all cultures may welcome and embrace—as they explore and try to understand the universe. So doing, though taking different roads, they unearth a new level of communication and productive diversity.

Rumi's Holistic Humanism takes into account the wide range of philosophical inquiry and mystical experiences, issues of psychology, morality and discipline, and the problematic conditions of ordinary daily human existence. Shakespeare gave us the question, "To be or not to be..."Rumi asked"... to love or not to love?", and the WHOLE HEART answers with a resounding YES! "Gamble everything for love."

[alancalverd]

Only real true mystics can experience the relatively full scale of human consciousness or pure consciousness and beyond :

Really? How do you know?

[AndroidNeox]

The human mind is a physical process of the human brain. While it might be difficult to understand, there's no reason to think it is dependent upon anything but common (universal) physical rules. People have similar problems understanding how life could be a consequence of common matter in complex arrangements. The problem isn't with the physics, it's with our ability to imagine.

[alancalverd]

Oi! Who asked for common sense? You'll be questioning the existence of fairies if you're not careful, and you know what that means... 

[dlorde]

Oi! Who asked for common sense? You'll be questioning the existence of fairies if you're not careful, and you know what that means... 

More poetry?

[alancalverd]

Worse - the death of fairies! Well, maybe not worse.

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

The human mind is a physical process of the human brain. While it might be difficult to understand, there's no reason to think it is dependent upon anything but common (universal) physical rules. People have similar problems understanding how life could be a consequence of common matter in complex arrangements. The problem isn't with the physics, it's with our ability to imagine.

Welcome , even though we have enough magicians here .

[DonQuichotte (OP)]

Only real true mystics can experience the relatively full scale of human consciousness or pure consciousness and beyond :

Really? How do you know?

Read the man's work,if you wanna know