[girlwind]

Question: who <gulp!> draws the blood?

You do. A lancet comes with the test kit and you poke your finger and squeeze the blood
out onto designated circles on a paper blotter.

[martin88]

You're right Girlwind, black cohosh has an estrogenic activity. Maybe not good for men. It has also an oxytocic property. Personally I don't think I'll try black cohosh but there are a lot of foods which contains estrogens, perhaps not the same amount I don't know. Here is a list : http://www.holisticonline.com/Remedies/hrt/hrt_food_and_estrogen.htm
If you read all the page there is also a list of estrogen inhibiting foods.

[demografx]

Question: who <gulp!> draws the blood?

You do. A lancet comes with the test kit and you poke your finger and squeeze the blood
out onto designated circles on a paper blotter.

no way!!

[Limejuice]

Thank you for completing the informal pituitary test  I've compiled the results and totaled them below.  Some of the questions were poorly geared towards measuring hormone level but others seemed to generate consistant results.  Heres the data:

General Pituitary Test:

GH (Growth hormone) - height/size: Is your height above or below average? below, below, average, average, above

Prolactin - Libido: Do you have a high or low sex drive during heavy POIS symptoms? low, low, low, low, low

ACTH (Adrenocorticotropin) - Stress: Is your level of stress high or low during intense POIS?  high, high, high, high, high

TSH (Thyroid-stimulating hormone) - energy: Is your energy level high or low during POIS? Your weight? low low, low, low, low

LH (Luteinizing hormone) - If your female, is your period cycle regular? no conclusive results

ADH (Antidiuretic hormone) - carbs: do carbohydrates or alcohol impact your thought process during POIS? no conclusive results

FSH (Follicle-stimulating hormone) - Kids: Do you have kids (if you were trying): no conclusive results

As seen above, the last few questions generated inconclusive data and most likely the questions poorly measure their respective pituitary hormone.  However, other questions generated precise and informative trends.  For example, the sex drive, stress, and energy questions answered were the same 5 for 5.  These pituitary hormones were Prolactin, TSH, and ACTH.

As girlwind and demografx have done, it may be worth testing thyroid hormone as well as prolactin and acth.  Last week I visited a Endocrine  specialist because my TSH was out of range (high).  Had I discovered this thread before, I would have tested the other hormones in addition to the Thyroid tests the specialist did.

Other results - I've had several TSH tests done other the past year.  I've had a wide range of TSH levels differing from test to test.  My results have been 6.3, 4.1, 4.5, 5.3.  Does anyone know if this fluctuation is typical in 'healthy' thyroid function?  If I recall correctly the 6.3 result was taken right after my girlfriend spent the night...   I should receive the TSH results from the specialist within a couple days now.  She also did additional thyroid tests though I don't know what.  I've also had free t3 and free t4 test but the results were normal - just TSH was wacky.

I'll keep you posted.

[martin88]

6',167 lbs, low libido, high stress, low energy , I can have kids, 4 days to 3 weeks of pois, thoughts are affected by carbs or alcohol.

About glycemia I have done a lot of tests at home and all were always in the normal range between 5 and 6 mmol/l, before or after meals. If someone has a protocol for a glucose tolerance test I can do it.
I think glycemia is not affected in my pois but it's always possible that the body has to make more efforts (eg. nutrients depletion) to regulate glycemia in pois.
Someone in my family has a tool for this(see the next link), it's not very expensive for what it does for diabetics, you find it in a pharmacy. You're using a new needle for every test. You feel absolutely nothing, no pain at all with this. (think about a mosquito, you need only a small drop of blood).
I think you can have it for free but you'll have to buy the needles and the paper tests separately (check the price before).
https://offers.bayerdiabetes.com/CouponReg.aspx?product=contour

PS
maybe you have to buy the lancing device separately also.
the needle (lancets) is mounted on a small spring, you press a button and it's done.Only a small part of the needle is going under the skin.

[girlwind]

Last week I visited a Endocrine  specialist because my TSH was out of range (high).  Had I discovered this thread before, I would have tested the other hormones in addition to the Thyroid tests the specialist did.

Other results - I've had several TSH tests done other the past year.  I've had a wide range of TSH levels differing from test to test.  My results have been 6.3, 4.1, 4.5, 5.3.  Does anyone know if this fluctuation is typical in 'healthy' thyroid function?  If I recall correctly the 6.3 result was taken right after my girlfriend spent the night...   I should receive the TSH results from the specialist within a couple days now.  She also did additional thyroid tests though I don't know what.  I've also had free t3 and free t4 test but the results were normal - just TSH was wacky.

High TSH, above 3.0, with normal T3 and T4 can be indicative of a milder hypothyroidism. It means that your
pituitary is pumping out a higher than normal level of thyroid stimulating hormone. (.3-3.0 are the NEW NORMAL
ranges, though some thyroid experts say that it should not be above 2.0.)

As for the significant variation in results... that is strange and I have no idea why it would vary so much. You should
read up on this to be prepared for your visit with the Endocrinologist.

[girlwind]

Question: who <gulp!> draws the blood?

You do. A lancet comes with the test kit and you poke your finger and squeeze the blood
out onto designated circles on a paper blotter.

no way!!

Demografx: Get over it. It's a few drops of blood, not a major organ donation!

Like Martin says: "the needle (lancets) is mounted on a small spring, you press a button and it's done. Only a
small part of the needle is going under the skin."

Think of it as a small sacrifice, in the name of POIS research, to benefit all humankind.

[demografx]

Question: who <gulp!> draws the blood?

You do. A lancet comes with the test kit and you poke your finger and squeeze the blood
out onto designated circles on a paper blotter.

no way!!

Demografx: Get over it. It's a few drops of blood, not a major organ donation!

Like Martin says: "the needle (lancets) is mounted on a small spring, you press a button and it's done. Only a
small part of the needle is going under the skin."

Think of it as a small sacrifice, in the name of POIS research, to benefit all humankind.

I'd still rather pay your airfare to come out and draw my <gasp!> blood!!!

Your chicken Moderator,
demografx

ps - human sacrifice went out with the printing of the Old Testament!

[martin88]

Demografx ! Maybe I can understand why you can't do this yourself for the first time(because the second time you'll know there is no pain !)  but if it's only that just give it to a member of your family to do it for you. Believe me, it's A LOT LESS painful than a conventional blood test when they take a full tube of blood. It's because the needle (from these lancets) is extremely thin and sharp.

[demografx]

Demografx ! Maybe I can understand why you can't do this yourself for the first time(because the second time you'll know there is no pain !)  but if it's only that just give it to a member of your family to do it for you. Believe me, it's A LOT LESS painful than a conventional blood test when they take a full tube of blood. It's because the needle (from these lancets) is extremely thin and sharp.

OK, Martin, I'll fly you AND girlwind out here to hold my hand! []

[girlwind]

Demografx ! Maybe I can understand why you can't do this yourself for the first time(because the second time you'll know there is no pain !)  but if it's only that just give it to a member of your family to do it for you. Believe me, it's A LOT LESS painful than a conventional blood test when they take a full tube of blood. It's because the needle (from these lancets) is extremely thin and sharp.

OK, Martin, I'll fly you AND girlwind out here to hold my hand! []

You are too much! I think you should just go find some LEECHES to suck the blood out for you.
Then you can decapitate them and squeeze the blood out of their little black bodies for the test.

[demografx]

European medicinal leech

You are too much! I think you should just go find some LEECHES to suck the blood out for you.
Then you can decapitate them and squeeze the blood out of their little black bodies for the test.

OK, girlwind!

[demografx]

BEST WISHES FOR A
HAPPY POIS-IMPROVED HALLOWEEN EVERYONE!!

[imre1]

BEST WISHES FOR A
HAPPY POIS-IMPROVED HALLOWEEN EVERYONE!!

ty

[hurray]

Chewbacca,

So I've recently stopped taking fenugreek until I can determine how it effects estrogen and breast tissue development. I haven't grown tits just yet:) but I was reading about a guy who had an increase in breast size from taking fenugreek for fifteen weeks straight. This is a lot of fenugreek, and probably more than any of us would take, but I still want to know more about fenugreek before I continue taking more of it. I'm not worried of toxicity as it is a safe herb to take...just unwanted side effects.

Do you have a link to the report on male breast size enlargement due to fenugreek? To me even the claims of enhancing female breast size with it sound like a sales gimmick to sell supplements. I understand it has a definite effect on lactating women but it strikes me as doubtful that it increases breast size in non-lactating women, and even more so for men. After all, it is a common ingredient in Indian recipes. I would think that if it actually worked it would be very well known and used by small breasted women everywhere, and silicon breast implants wouldn't have as much allure.

If you google fenugreek men breasts, the first search refers to the 15 week thing:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_fenugreek_cause_breast_enhancement_in_men

This could be what Chewbacca was referring to. It's up to every individual to determine the risks and benefits of different POIS treatments for themselves. I would recommend checking with a doctor before doing anything - having said that, I wonder how many doctors have even heard of fenugreek, let alone have a sophisticated opinion on its effects on your hormonal balance.

Some anecdotal information about fenugreek and its effects on breast growth can be found here:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/search.php?searchid=3274877

I agree that if it really did increase breast size substantially this would be widely known, you would imagine that millions of women would be enthusiastically recommending fenugreek to one another!

[demografx]

UPDATE ON SCIENTIST FRIEND

An old school buddy was one of the first scientists (1980) to study HIV-1 protease (for AIDS). I sent him an email, hoping to get his thoughts on how our forum can be aided by the scientific community.

He called me today and we chatted. He is willing to help us. His first reaction to POIS was the IL-6 protein, I'm googling it and invite anyone else to do the same. More info below.

His discussion and followup email revealed some amazing sources I never heard of...Government resources meant for people like us. Feel free to research along with me, starting with the sites below. He and I will chat again mid-week.

his email

Hi [demografx],

I’m sorry that we lost our connection on the phone.  I’ll try to call again in a few minutes. 

In the meantime, let me send you the links I mentioned.

Office of Rare Diseases at the National Institutes of Health:

http://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/

Rare Disease Clinical Research Network:

http://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/Wrapper.aspx?src=asp/resources/extr_res.asp

CRISP – a database of all NIH grants awarded; this might be a good way to find someone working on your condition:

http://crisp.cit.nih.gov/

National Organization for Rare Disorders:

http://www.rarediseases.org/

...check out their rare disorders database / index:

http://www.rarediseases.org/search/rdblist.html

http://www.rarediseases.org/search/rdbsearch.html

Finally, the “flu-like symptoms” that you mentioned are reminiscent of side effects that one sees with certain drugs and drug candidates (e.g., rifalazil for tuberculosis), that stimulate an “immunomodulator” protein called IL-6.  The link below is to a database of all scientific literature (since 1964), which you can search for your condition AND IL-6:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/gquery

I hope this helps.  Please send me the name, institution and publication for the investigator in the Netherlands that you mentioned, and I’ll try to figure out who else may be doing similar work.[I email-replied with Waldinger POIS study and link to our forum, girlwind's video, and Counterpoints' questionnaire - demografx]

All the best,
[name]

[Counterpoints]

VERY IMPORTANT:

Before taking fenugreek (or relora), PLEASE GET A CORTISOL BLOOD TEST (both AM and PM cortisol).  If you have already taken these drugs, I suggest to stop taking them temporarily, for a few days, and then GET TESTED.  (I would also highly recommend getting the test WHILE SYMPTOMATIC).

My pm cortisol level (while minimally symptomatic) was 420 nmol/L (ref: 50-300 nmol/L).   I also had prolactin and TSH tested at the same time (both were normal).

I am now going to get a urine test, and an AM test and a PM test on the same day. 

This article on the effects of high cortisol on cognition http://library.thinkquest.org/C0126536/main.php?currentchap=6&currentsect=deterio.htm
describes MANY of my pois symptoms, and may explain intolerance to glucose.

SO GET TESTED, AND TRY TO AVOID ALL MEDICATIONS THAT COULD INTERFERE WITH YOUR CORTISOL LEVELS BEFOREHAND (CONSULT PHYSICIAN).

[demografx]

Counterpoints, thank you! As you know I've expressed concern about the tested/ingested items in the Forum. With your research on cortisol, you've taken this a step further than I did with my pharmacology-lawyer friend.

[Counterpoints]

Thanks Demografx.

If I understand things correctly, fenugreek and relora should help lower our cortisol levels, which is a good thing.  But taking them before a cortisol blood test would then give us inaccurate results.  I took a cortisol blood-test, in which my high cortisol levels were alarming (at least to me).

It suggests that POIS symptoms could be caused by very high cortisol levels.  So I suggest to everyone that they cut all cortisol affecting medications (whether they make levels high or low), and get tested -- just to see whether this could be causing your POIS.  Of course, consult a physician first (which you will likely need to do in order to get the tests ordered, anyways).

[demografx]

IL-6 AND PROLACTIN?

I found the following reference from my research friend that shows IL-6 can over-stimulate prolactin (and create POIS?)

Does anyone see a connection with what we found out previously about prolactin? I can't tell.

Thanks!

from http://www.lef.org/dsnews/ds_letter_2004_jul.htm#2

Prolactin: Sex and Immune Activation