[Finally]

I think I had POIS symptoms after a roller coaster ride once, but then again my girlfriend was sitting on my lap []

Now this requires some serious science: take a roller coaster ride again with said female removed. If symptoms persist, try bumper cars or boat rides!

I was only kidding about that.  I really don't recall

SeriouslY though I did experience a similar stiffness and pain after taking a calicium supplement.  I am beginning to think that my symptoms might be caused by a lack of blood flow through capilaries( either a costriction or blockage).  Calcium through food in it's natural method delivery won't cause a problem but ingestion of bone meal or coral calcium suplements causes severe prolems
 Since others have found relief through Levitra which is used to treat ED and I have used an herbal mixture of Maca
(seems most effective) Yohimbe and Horney Goat Weed over the last 3 weeks that has been more successful than anything I have tried in the last 30 years.  When I
Also I mentioned alcohol earlier having a similar effect to POIS.  Alcohol causes constriction of blood vessels.
When I have had injuries having an orgasm will seem to slow  or halt the healing process or even worsen it.    
Perhaps what causes muscle stiffness in some by reducing the supply to muscles results in a reduced flow to the brain causing brain fog and dizziness in others?
Also some people experience this by acending too quickly in high altiudes.

[demografx]

Girlwind, thanks for the dead-smiley and the million reasons caffeine's bad for you. You've heard your friends say it can have a heroin-intensity hold on people. I've given up a million times. But the Caffeine Monster sneaks into my bedroom at night and forces me to make a deal with the devil, so what can I do? I would replace it with good sex, but we all know where THAT leads <wink>.

I'm just not truly ready yet to quit, 3 physicians' pleas notwithstanding. But seriously, I do appreciate your concern.

[demografx]

...I have used an herbal mixture of Maca (seems most effective) Yohimbe and Horney Goat Weed over the last 3 weeks that has been more successful than anything I have tried in the last 30 years...

Finally...thank you.

I hate to be a party pooper, but the following article talks about some serious risks and side effects of Maca and Yohimbe and advises to
see a medical professional when taking them:

http://www.myfittribe.com/articles/20080716/maca-and-yohimbe.html

Also please see the following article's discussion on "Safety" re. Horny Goat Weed:

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/HornyGoatWeed.htm

Since these plants work similarly to Levitra and other ED drugs, it's not surprising that they carry risk as well!

It seems that several of us here respond well to this group of agents and with more research - and caution - we might find some answers to POIS!

We have had one theory evolve from this: that these agents increase Nitrous Oxide, and that NO is somehow implicated in POIS. An intriguing part of their action as it relates to POIS is that they increase sexual desire and potency. Do they somehow "replace" what POIS "takes away"? Are Levitra and the agents discussed above only helpful to older men? Could there be a relationship to Fenugreek and Relora which affect Cortisol, which is implicated in sexual function?

[Porke]

I just want to respond to to the Fenugreek comment some people made.

I went and bought some this week, and tried it this weekend. Took one friday night and one on saturday morning after 'some action'

I did feel much better than I usually do. Normally i feel very drained, with an almost headachy feel inside my head for a day or two after.. Very down generally. This time i did not have any strange feeling in my head, and did not feel as 'drained'. I wasnt bouncing off the walls, but I could tell that I was doing much much better than usual. By sunday, i felt 100% - so this stuff def helps - FOR ME. I bought Solgar (very expensive - but a top quality product) as most other brands are so hit and miss with this sort of thing.

Ill def keep experimenting with it. I believe a 'cure' is out there. I don't think im necessarily sick, just that I get depleted from whatever hormone or chemical after sex. Whether it be an adrenal or brain issue, I think I just need to find that one herb or supplement that's going to replenish me quicker than I can by myself.

Other supplements that have helped me out too is your typical flu medication (Vitamin C, synephedrine, asprin, antihistamine) those combo fizzys. They make me feel better, and I might take one every once in a while.

[girlwind]

Finally...thank you.

I hate to be a party pooper, but the following article talks about some serious risks and side effects of Maca and Yohimbe and advises to
see a medical professional when taking them:

http://www.myfittribe.com/articles/20080716/maca-and-yohimbe.html

MACA IS NOT SO BAD, YOHIMBE MORE RISKY
Excerpts from the article Demografx posted

"Maca is a Peruvian plant with a history of consumption for warriors, livestock, and Peruvians. The reason maca is being
brought up in the same conversation as sex is that it has been shown to increase libido and semen quality. However, it’s
important to note that a diet high in maca and low in iodine has been associated with high rates of goiter. In rats, it has
been shown to enlarge prostate glands. However, maca is consumed in many parts of the world as a dietary staple with
minimal risks.

Yohimbe, on the other hand, poses a far more serious risk. It’s promoted as a natural aphrodisiac and alternate option to
medications such as Viagra. Yohimbe relaxes and dilates blood vessels in the penis, allowing enhanced blood flow and
erection. While research has shown small benefits for men with erectile dysfunction of organic origins, the health risks
outweigh the advantages. Yohimbe has been linked to seizures, kidney failure, dizziness, nausea, insomnia, high blood
pressure, anxiety, and rapid heartbeat."


I have taken Maca on and off for a few years, and as long as I stay at or below the recommended dosage on the bottle,
it works well to help me recuperate energy after over-exertion. Also, there is some evidence that it can actually help women
balance their hormones when they get peri-menopausal. Interesting how they note that it's important that maca must be
kept in balance with getting enough IODINE in your diet. Don't I know that  one!

[demografx]

I just want to respond to to the Fenugreek comment some people made.

I went and bought some this week, and tried it this weekend. Took one friday night and one on saturday morning after 'some action'

I did feel much better than I usually do. Normally i feel very drained, with an almost headachy feel inside my head for a day or two after.. Very down generally. This time i did not have any strange feeling in my head, and did not feel as 'drained'. I wasnt bouncing off the walls, but I could tell that I was doing much much better than usual. By sunday, i felt 100% - so this stuff def helps - FOR ME. I bought Solgar (very expensive - but a top quality product) as most other brands are so hit and miss with this sort of thing.

Ill def keep experimenting with it. I believe a 'cure' is out there. I don't think im necessarily sick, just that I get depleted from whatever hormone or chemical after sex. Whether it be an adrenal or brain issue, I think I just need to find that one herb or supplement that's going to replenish me quicker than I can by myself.

Other supplements that have helped me out too is your typical flu medication (Vitamin C, synephedrine, asprin, antihistamine) those combo fizzys. They make me feel better, and I might take one every once in a while.

Terrific post, Porke, I really appreciate it.

[demografx]

MACA IS NOT SO BAD, YOHIMBE MORE RISKY

Girlwind, thanks for clarifying!

[Andreas_F]

Hi Everyone. My name is Andreas and I just want to say how relieved and thankful I am for such a good turn of fate that has led so many people with with this condition to come together to talk about it. 

I am a 24 year old healthy male with no health problems whatsoever.  I am a personal trainer at the moment and do a good 10 hours of varied exercise a week, don't drink or smoke and have a very strict diet ( With regard to proper vitamins, minerals; eating carbohydrates and proteins at the correct intervals in the correct proportions relative to my body weight etc etc).  As yet I have suffered no ill health other than mumps as a child.
5 years ago I noticed that orgasms were better after periods of abstinence of a few days and progressively so after periods of abstinence of up to a month. After a year or so I noticed a general state of well being after the 4+ day point and at the 28 day mark a fantastic level of mental clarity and confidence.  That's when I started to notice my symptoms.  Like so many others the 2 most exaggerated and debilitating symptoms were the 4 day confusion/lack of concentration ( as an extra note I tend to repeat a word or song in my head repeatedly and annoyingly during this time) and of course the constant desire to sleep even though no amount of sleep is enough.

I was so happy to hear that I was not alone and there was hope I simply had to tell you guys ( this is my first forum post by the way).

Although my level of physical activity means that I can deal with the physical symptoms quite easily ( my sleepiness is only in the morning when I wake up) it's the cognitive impairments that are my biggest problem.
For me I get a strong sense of disassociation with the world, lack of ability ( that causes a complex) to socialise and connect with peers, friends and colleagues; a complete lack of ability to focus on a point ( I deviate horribly and cannot return to a previous train of thought) as well as an inability to see a broad perspective of things ( I use  my chess playing as an analogy with me only concentrating on small battles taking place on a portion of the board as opposed to considering the board as a whole) and a lack of deliberate direction.  Most of these happen internally but for me the most horrifyingly outwardly noticeable symptom is stuttering and inability to pronounce words or construct sentences verbally properly (especially when under stress) for at least 2-3 weeks.  All of these symptoms decline and eventually disappear in the fourth week of abstinence.

Conversely, I thought I would add that my writing vocabulary (speed at which I find the exact word I'm looking for) and Long term memory are vastly better for 1-2 weeks immediately post orgasm.

I have similarly approached doctors and been greeted with looks that contain mixtures of mild bemusement and a lot of "hmm, I've never heard of that before..."s followed by the usual booklet on "Anxiety & Stress Management".

I too suffer the symptoms after conscious or sleeping orgasms.

Like so many others abstinence at my age killed many relationships.  There was simply no way I could put it so they were comfortable.  Two years ago I managed to salvage a love life (and sex life) by discovering Novocaine and extra thick condoms.

I have only managed to read through a few pages of thread tonight but I have to say I was visibly ecstatic when I saw positive posts in the last few threads above.
My lifestyle is as good as practicably possible and I have no major psychological issues so I am (like many of you are) convinced it is hormonal and looking forward to reading what success you guys have had with different drugs.

Again a big big thanks to he first posters for starting the thread and maybe we'll see it become the best love life saviour since Viagra!

[demografx]

Andreas, welcome! Funny you mention Viagra as a "love life savior"...Levitra (a competing brand) has been my "POIS life savior". One other individual here has also reported positively about Levitra. But please don't experiment without a physician, especially at your age. And I assume you've read about Relora, Fenugreek, garlic, etc., which hold out much promise for future "POIS cocktails" in my opinion. Again, please read the cautions too.

There is a POIS video I'm sure you will enjoy (popcorn is optional), created by Girlwind:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBxAUC9k1g

Counterpoints has also created a questionnaire for outside researchers' and other forum listmembers' use:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

This is a very friendly group because we have all suffered the same "bemused" blank stares by medical "professionals" - not to mention the agony of POIS symptoms.

I look forward to reading more about you.

[demografx]

               LOCAL POIS DEALER!
          Fenugreek, Relora, Maca, Yohimbe
              No Appointment Necessary!
                1-800-POISonOUS


                THANKSGIVING SPECIAL!
                Horny Goat Weed
                 Buy One/Get One Free


Come to our Happy Hour
Free Garlic Buffet Wednesdays
                   Bring-A-Friend

[Counterpoints]

IMPORTANT UPDATE:

High cortisol, or possibly wild cortisol fluctuations, are extremely plausible explanations for many cases of POIS on this forum.
1) Imre1 was helped with beta blockers -- beta blockers lower cortisol.
2) Our symptoms -- lack of concentration, social anxiety, lack of creativity, etc. -- are characteristic of high cortisol.
3) Several people on this forum have been substantially helped with cortisol-lowering supplements. (relora, and fenugreek?).
4) Sugary diets raise cortisol.  Some people have been helped with high protein, low sugar diets.  (e.g. B_Jim).

Two weeks ago, I took a PM cortisol test, and my levels were noticeably high: ~425nmol/L, vs the 50-300 nmol/L reference.
Last week, I took ACTH, AM cortisol and PM cortisol tests. The AM cortisol test was flagged (about 750 nmol/L. morning ref has a max of about 650 nmol/L). ACTH was on the upper end of normal (taken in the morning).  This time, the PM cortisol test was in the upper end of the reference (~280 nmol/L).  I am going back for further testing.

The fact that my cortisol was suppressed in the evening is good in the sense that it
1) It is unlikely I have Cushing's
2) My higher levels are probably not caused by a tumor leaking cortisol.

However, my levels are high.  This can be problematic, and is the biggest definitive clue I've had in explaining my symptoms.  I encourage everyone to get these harmless blood tests, in addition to the 24 hr urinary cortisol test.  I suggest taking these while feeling symptomatic, and possibly getting a repeat test -- perhaps one shortly after orgasm (hours), and one a day or two afterwards.  If you get the AM, try to also get the PM test.  But if you only get one test, make it AM cortisol, since physicians will take it more seriously.  You will probably need to take the test prior to 10 AM (possibly before 9 AM).

Best regards.

[girlwind]

HEY DEMO--WHO NEEDS A DEALER or A DOCTOR. MAYBE HE HAS THE ANSWER TO POIS!


 [ Invalid Attachment ] [

[Chewbacca]

RE: Finally

The Maca and yohimbe don't really strike me as anything special......But what does strike me as noteworthy is the horny goat weed. Maybe about a month ago a forum member here(sorry I can't remember who it was) mentioned an article they saw on yahoo! about horny goat weed. The Article stated that Italian researchers found a PDE-5 inhibitory effect from horny goats weed. Viagra, Levita, and cialis are PDE-5 inhibitors. Consequently, they are going to make a engineered version of the plant and sell it as an herbal viagra that is just as effective as the real thing.

What interests me is that, like horny Goat Weed, Levitra is a PDE-5 inhibitor. As demografx will tell you, this has been his own personal cure(at least it reduced his symptoms 50-75%). PDE-5 inhibitors increase oxytocin levels during orgasms when taken before sexual stimulation. Oxytocin release during orgasm and during the preorgasm phase lowers cortisol levels, lowers prolactin and increases dopamine(as I can remember it anyway).

i guess what I'm trying to say is that horny goat weed seems worthy of further investigation as Finally has had success with it and since it's mechanism of action seems to be congruent to the mechanism of action for levitra....a product that has worked for two forum members.

Finally....what brand of Horny Goat Weed are you using....what dose?

[Chewbacca]

Also, for any of you interested in traditional chinese medicine.... here is a link to a website that tells how Horny Goat Weed is used(it's chinese name is yin yang hua. Not surprisingly....it used for kidey and liver deficencies. A condition mentioned in TCM i belive is linked with POIS.

http://alternativehealing.org/xian_ling_pi.htm [nofollow]

[demografx]

...Maybe about a month ago a forum member here(sorry I can't remember who it was) mentioned an article they saw on yahoo! about horny goat weed. The Article stated that Italian researchers found a PDE-5 inhibitory effect from horny goats weed. Viagra, Levita, and cialis are PDE-5 inhibitors. Consequently, they are going to make an engineered version of the plant and sell it as an herbal viagra that is just as effective as the real thing.

Chewbacca, maybe the post you mention above was the one I posted below?

INTERESTING (and humorous) NOTE FROM MY PHARMACOLOGY-LAWYER FRIEND

...there is a natural product which is touted to be a natural Viagra. I'm not making the name up.  Italian scientists have extracted the active ingredient and claim that in clinical trials it is as effective as Viagra, et al. It is also, allegedly, an herb which is effective for treating artherosclerosis and allergies. It's called Horny Goat Weed [translation from the Chinese]. There was an article about the Italian clinical trials on Yahoo last week. The active ingredient does have a similar effect to the PDE5 inhibitors.

Here is one of the articles:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/123010.php

[demografx]

HEY DEMO--WHO NEEDS A DEALER or A DOCTOR. MAYBE HE HAS THE ANSWER TO POIS!

WHICH doctor are you referring to? []

[demografx]

IMPORTANT UPDATE:

High cortisol, or possibly wild cortisol fluctuations, are extremely plausible explanations for many cases of POIS on this forum...
...Our symptoms -- lack of concentration, social anxiety, lack of creativity, etc. -- are characteristic of high cortisol...

Counterpoints, very interesting. I think that extreme fatigue/exhaustion is a leading POIS symptom. Is that a high cortisol symptom? If not, perhaps a "cocktail" of cortisol+fatigue-attack could be a curative hypothesis?

[martin88]

POIS - DUALITY IN TREATMENTS :
Did you notice a duality in treatments for POIS ?

1)Some are most often aphrodisiacs (not all) and help right after orgasm.
For example (ginseng, horny goat, meat, low sugar diet, high protein diet, B6, E, phosphorus, zinc, Levitra etc...)

2)On an other side other treatments are helping to stay sexually abstinent (antiandrogen FLUTAMIDE prescribed by Dr Waldinger, lettuce, hops, lotus ?, heavy work/long physical exercise, SSRI, etc...)

Treatments from Category 2 are the best for me, I feel the cure is more complete.

I'm not sure but I think that treatments from category 1 are a temporary cure for pois, and are never FULLY effective and will probably finish to cause more problems.

(I don't know where to put garlic,fenugreek,relora in this)

About beta-blockers, in which category do you place them?
I'd say 2 because Imre said his desire was completely suppressed on it and he was happy for this. Is it possible that beta-blockers are only effective if you're sexually abstinent?
If it's true maybe they are not touching the deficiency we all feel after orgasm.

It is still possible that beta blockers cause depression in some cases, cautions psychiatrist Stuart C. Yudofsky of Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. Beta blockers are known to affect serotonin, a brain chemical that may be associated with depression, he says.

It's written on internet that beta-blockers are sometimes causing depression. This disease is frequently coming with high levels of cortisol. To be sure I'd make the cortisol test without taking them.

[Finally]

Finally....what brand of Horny Goat Weed are you using....what dose?

Horney Goat Weed
Planetary Herbals
600 mg tablets 1 AM 1 PM

Also Fenugreek( Natures Answers) 600 MG 3x day

Dhea Complete( Life Extension) 25mg Am & noon

Maca ( Parasdise Herbs)Maca root extract 7:1 250 mg 2-3 X day

Yohimbe bark extract(GAIA HERBS) liquid drops 250mg 3x day dilute in fruit juice

I purchase the Above from Life Extension (LEF.Org.?)

Restore (garden of Life)muscle and tissue Recovery
enzymes(Bromelain, Papain Protease) 2  275 mg tablets 3x day

Primal defense Ultra(Garden of life) 1 tablet 2-3  x Day

Fruits of life (garden of life) fruit concentrate 2/3 tsp 3x day mixed with  4 oz water and 4oz tonic water.

1200 - 1800 mg phenylalnine

400-600mg taurine  

I also use Sea Salt.

This is what I have taken with no real side effects. No large increase in libito as expected.  a lot still depends on a stimulus.  Erections are a little firmer and fuller.  My result were more for long term than immediate effects although I have only done one test so far.   

I am taking these for now. Hopefully I can taper soon to a maintenance level much lower.  I also am a large person so the dose/lb & effect would be greater on  a smaller person. Anyone should start small and gradually increase doses.  I was willing to take a risk but I wouldn't recomend anyone else doing it.      
I am not a big believer in the superiority of conventional practitioners.  I almost died from taking Vioxx for a knee injury. I ended up wandering around in a haze with dangerously low BP.  I survived by stumbling into a convenience store and downing energy drinks. I had severe chest pain for months after.
The pharmeceutical industry puts out articles trashing alternative medicine and tries to push for regulations that would require prescriptions for vitamins because they fear them.  Hospitals and drug companies are conglomerates intersted in a bottom line.  The old family doctor is almost extinct.  My mother died in a hospital because the epinephrine they gave in the ER wouldn't work because her dcoctor had upped the dose of high blood pressure medicine
I worked in medical research.  The labs are paid big bucks to get results for drugs. They get positive test results. If not there is always a paper shredder nearby.  The lack of oversight is a "joke".      

[Andreas_F]

Thanks for the welcome B_Jim and Demo, I feel fortunate to find so many posters who are attacking the problem with a logical and open minded approach.  I get a sense that there's no real panacea here but rather a good mix of remedies that need experimentation.  No need to worry though Demo, I have no intention of experimenting with any drug without proper medical supervision!
I haven't had time to read through the entire thread yet so I'm reluctant to ask any questions out of courtesy but I was wondering if testosterone levels had been abandoned as a possible cause and if so why?  I ask because I notice a proportional rise in libido to decline in my symptoms of POIS. Was I wrong to think of testosterone as the primary agent here?

Thanks again everyone.