[Counterpoints]

Counterpoints, your survey is a small fraction of the total 200 visitors, plus Waldinger!

It constitutes over 10% of the posters here, and I believe it is representative.  I've also paid attention to the posts on the forum, though. There are those with mental symptoms, those with both physical and mental, and basically no-one with just physical.  It follows that 'physical exhaustion' is unlikely to be the predominant symptom. (From what I've seen "brain fog" or some varient is by far the most frequently occuring symptom). Not that it really matters? I agree physical exhaustion is a common complaint.  I just did a re-count, trying to be as generous to the 'physical fatigue' argument as I could be (including anything that would suggest this symptom, even if not explicitly stated), and got 64%.  ('brain fog' + varients at ~76%).

This is interesting though.  Once we have more data, it would be informative to rank the symptoms in terms of frequency.  Our results might be more reliable if we introduced an additional survey with check-boxes.  (e.g. 'physical fatigue', 'brain fog', etc).  That way there is less subjective interpretation.  I have the survey the way it is right now, because the subjectivity allows the freedom for others to express symptoms many of us may have had, but can't presently articulate.

[demografx]

It follows that 'physical exhaustion' is unlikely to be the predominant symptom.

Counterpoints, I keep repeating that it's physical and mental and even emotional!

Only the very first mention above did I not clarify that strongly enough.

[demografx]

CP, does this summarize fairly what we're saying?

Counterpoints, extreme exhaustion and physical fatigue is my understanding of the chief POIS symptom.

exhaustion and fatigue, both physical and mental are the main complaints I see repeatedly.

about 48-55% of responders list physical fatigue or exhaustion as a post orgasm symptom.

"bet on"...physical/mental, even emotional exhaustion/fatigue.

[demografx]

[The forum survey] constitutes over 10% of the posters here, and I believe it is representative.

I believe they are unusually motivated. Thereby possibly skewed.

[demografx]

Counterpoints, assuming the POIS universe is in the thousands or millions, surely you would agree that 19 respondents is questionable as a statistically significant, projectable number for a quantitative survey. In all my research studies, any survey component that fell below a count of 100 was often flagged.

Qualitative studies (such as focus groups, Waldinger's 2 patients in his final writeup, your survey, etc.) are useful of course as a springboard to gather more data for quantification.

Hard to take a firm mathematical stand projecting to the whole POIS universe of sufferers at this time.

[Guthrie]

I would point out that in my case--and perhaps for other people--the physical and mental fatigue can sometimes be hard to distinguish from one another.  For instance, if in POIS stage, when I feel slowed down by brain fog, it can also feel like my body finds it hard to move as well--even though this may be partially from the mental fatigue.

Also, (regarding the relation between POIS and premature ejaculation in Dr. Waldinger's paper), I do suffer from premature ejaculation.  Others (including John21 and Chewbacca) also mentioned having this symptom.

[demografx]

I would point out that in my case--and perhaps for other people--the physical and mental fatigue can sometimes be hard to distinguish from one another.  For instance, if in POIS stage, when I feel slowed down by brain fog, it can also feel like my body finds it hard to move as well--even though this may be partially from the mental fatigue.

Also, (regarding the relation between POIS and premature ejaculation in Dr. Waldinger's paper), I do suffer from premature ejaculation.  Others (including John21 and Chewbacca) also mentioned having this symptom.

Very well said, Guthrie! I have a hard time distinguishing between brain fog and fatigue.

[Jasmine07]

thank you so much for your input guys! i'll be looking more into this!

[girlwind]

"Girlwind" in particular is extremely knowledgeable in this area. She just recently completed $2,000 worth of hormone tests!

Girlwind,

I'm getting testing done for my anemia and while I'm there I'll request some hormonal testing. Can you tell me briefly what you tested for?

If you want to be thorough with testing for anemia, there are a few tests that come to mind: the CBC (complete
blood count), which is a panel of tests, that includes RBC (red blood cell count), hemoglobin and hematocrit.
There are also the Total Iron and the Iron Binding Capacity tests. And the Ferritin test--the main intracellular
iron storage protein.

As far as hormones.... oh boy!  I tested EVERYTHING I could think of: thyroid tests (TSH, Free T3, Free T4, TPO-AB,
Thyroglobulin AB, and Reverse T3), Free Cortisol and Cortisol, DHEA Sulphate, Pregnenolone, Free Testosterone,
IGF-1 (that's growth hormone), FSH, LH, Estradiol, Progesterone, and Serotonin (which is the feel-good neurotrans-
mitter). There are more tests I did as well: for Vitamin D 25 hydroxy (a big deficiency for many with CFS) and RBC
Magnesium, as well as the complete metabolic panel, and a few others I can't remember.

I hope that's helpful.

[SteveD]

thank you so much for your input guys! i'll be looking more into this!

Jasmine,

Welcome. I have a 22 year old daughter. I applaud her courageousness as she looks into her own issues, as I do yours. This is cunning, baffling and powerful disease, but there is a lot of hard work being done by a lot of people to try to solve this in numerous ways.

Welcome

[SteveD]

As far as hormones.... oh boy!  I tested EVERYTHING I could think of: thyroid tests (TSH, Free T3, Free T4, TPO-AB,
Thyroglobulin AB, and Reverse T3), Free Cortisol and Cortisol, DHEA Sulphate, Pregnenolone, Free Testosterone,
IGF-1 (that's growth hormone), FSH, LH, Estradiol, Progesterone, and Serotonin (which is the feel-good neurotrans-
mitter). There are more tests I did as well: for Vitamin D 25 hydroxy (a big deficiency for many with CFS) and RBC
Magnesium, as well as the complete metabolic panel, and a few others I can't remember.

I hope that's helpful.

Thanks Girlwind I'll request those when I go in again.

[SteveD]

Continued to expand with the idea I got from Underwater around full central nervous system focus...and swam 73 laps in 90 minutes, plus 25" of yoga and 10 " of running...

Also, I'm working on the stage previous to POIS that, for me, starts the 'mental fog'... non-orgasmic genital contact.Instead, my partner and I worked out, shared dinner and watched a Disney cartoon (those things are about as sexless as a Thackeray novel!). It's been like being old except not being sick! It's better than that really. A lot better, because I know my mental/emotional health is not deteriorating as it does in the previous stage of POIS, in my experience.

My partner and I were also able to talk about all the simply, plain evil impulses that are coming up inside of me the last two weeks, since we committed to a path of non-orgasmic sexuality, and that helped me just let them pass through me.

Been doing, iron, vitamin D and B-12 supplements for a month , plus red meat. Anemia is steadily going away, but feeling like a  'Meathead' with all the attendant heart congestion... Looking forward , with hope, of this period being over and returning to raw , organic veganism...with supplements this time!

[demografx]

SEXUAL/ORGASMIC REPRESSION

An old technique for POIS sufferers. I'd like to hear more about other people's experiences here, compare notes if you will.

I have seen others here come to the same conclusion as mine below, but it was usually expressed "off topic" as part of a larger discussion.

Our main interest, it seems, has been to explore the "biology of POIS", hormonal influences, testing, neurotransmitter theories and the like and then experiments and results with viable drugs and supplements.

It would be interesting to clarify and hear from anyone who hasn't already discussed the abstinence issue.

Some researchers have found that sexual/orgasmic repression can eventually lead to hostility and rage. In my personal experience, I find that movement in that direction can be true for me. That doesn't mean I necessarily become hostile or angry, but I can feel the tension building.

For me, the building intensity is felt clearly after about 6 weeks.

To counter this tension, for decades, I have experimented seriously, tried various forms of meditation, spirituality, etc. to no avail. I can suppress sexuality, but not with a very positive outcome in social interaction, self-esteem, and confidence. Even my pianoplaying deteriorates! []

My conclusion, POIS notwithstanding, is that periodic release is a necessary part of my healthy functioning.

Would anyone else we haven't heard from care to comment on your experiences?

[girlwind]

Been doing, iron, vitamin D and B-12 supplements for a month , plus red meat. Anemia is steadily going away, but feeling like a 
'Meathead' with all the attendant heart congestion... Looking forward , with hope, of this period being over and returning to raw,
organic veganism...with supplements this time!

I've never been anemic, but I have had times where I've been in the lower end of normal for my hematocrit and iron.
During those times I've taken a liquid iron enriching supplement called Floradix Iron and Herbs. Several alternative
health professionals I know recommend it. It works really well to boost my iron back to normal in about 2 weeks.

Also, I don't think that meat (provided its lean and grass-fed) will cause heart congestion, especially for those of us
who have a metabolic type that thrives on high protein. In fact, eating too little fat and protein can reek serious havoc
on one's health, as I learned in my 20's, when I was committed to being macrobiotic and eating NO meat whatsoever.
My cholesterol at that time fell down to 107! And I thought this was a good thing, even though I was desperately ill
at the time. My father, who was a doctor, harped on me constantly about how UN-healthy it was to have such very
low cholesterol, and after about 8 years I began to believe him, and slowly added meat to my diet. I definitely felt
better after I began to eat meat--free range and grass fed. Many aspects of my health have improved since then.

Cholesterol is the key "ingredient" involved in creating all the steroid hormones in your body. So for those of us
who have hormonal levels that tend to be too low, it's not a good thing to let cholesterol fall to such low levels. I knew a
medical doctor who used to get quite ballistic about "all those young vegetarian guys" that came to see her, "completely
drained and wasted" because they refused to eat meat. She basically reiterated the words of my father.

I do know there are some people who can thrive on a vegetarian/vegan diet, but those have been a minority. They have
a completely different metabolic type, and can get away with consuming a lot of raw fruits and vegetables with minimal
protein and no animal food. From what I've read on this forum, most of the people here who have experimented with
their diets have found that lower carbs and higher protein work better for them. I'm curious if any have found being vegan
to be healthy for them.

[Finally]

Been doing, iron, vitamin D and B-12 supplements for a month , plus red meat. Anemia is steadily going away, but feeling like a 
'Meathead' with all the attendant heart congestion... Looking forward , with hope, of this period being over and returning to raw,
organic veganism...with supplements this time!

I've never been anemic, but I have had times where I've been in the lower end of normal for my hematocrit and iron.
During those times I've taken a liquid iron enriching supplement called Floradix Iron and Herbs. Several alternative
health professionals I know recommend it. It works really well to boost my iron back to normal in about 2 weeks.

Also, I don't think that meat (provided its lean and grass-fed) will cause heart congestion, especially for those of us
who have a metabolic type that thrives on high protein. In fact, eating too little fat and protein can reek serious havoc
on one's health, as I learned in my 20's, when I was committed to being macrobiotic and eating NO meat whatsoever.
My cholesterol at that time fell down to 107! And I thought this was a good thing, even though I was desperately ill
at the time. My father, who was a doctor, harped on me constantly about how UN-healthy it was to have such very
low cholesterol, and after about 8 years I began to believe him, and slowly added meat to my diet. I definitely felt
better after I began to eat meat--free range and grass fed. Many aspects of my health have improved since then.

Cholesterol is the key "ingredient" involved in creating all the steroid hormones in your body. So for those of us
who have hormonal levels that tend to be too low, it's not a good thing to let cholesterol fall to such low levels. I knew a
medical doctor who used to get quite ballistic about "all those young vegetarian guys" that came to see her, "completely
drained and wasted" because they refused to eat meat. She basically reiterated the words of my father.

I do know there are some people who can thrive on a vegetarian/vegan diet, but those have been a minority. They have
a completely different metabolic type, and can get away with consuming a lot of raw fruits and vegetables with minimal
protein and no animal food. From what I've read on this forum, most of the people here who have experimented with
their diets have found that lower carbs and higher protein work better for them. I'm curious if any have found being vegan
to be healthy for them.

I haven't eaten meat for over 4 years.  I still eat eggs and dairy though.  I used to have chest pains but I haven't had any in the last four years.  I get enough vegetable protein so  not only am healthy but have gained about 30 lbs. and a lot of that muscle.

[SteveD]

Been doing, iron, vitamin D and B-12 supplements for a month , plus red meat. Anemia is steadily going away, but feeling like a 
'Meathead' with all the attendant heart congestion... Looking forward , with hope, of this period being over and returning to raw,
organic veganism...with supplements this time!

I've never been anemic, but I have had times where I've been in the lower end of normal for my hematocrit and iron.
During those times I've taken a liquid iron enriching supplement called Floradix Iron and Herbs. Several alternative
health professionals I know recommend it. It works really well to boost my iron back to normal in about 2 weeks.

Also, I don't think that meat (provided its lean and grass-fed) will cause heart congestion, especially for those of us
who have a metabolic type that thrives on high protein. In fact, eating too little fat and protein can reek serious havoc
on one's health, as I learned in my 20's, when I was committed to being macrobiotic and eating NO meat whatsoever.
My cholesterol at that time fell down to 107! And I thought this was a good thing, even though I was desperately ill
at the time. My father, who was a doctor, harped on me constantly about how UN-healthy it was to have such very
low cholesterol, and after about 8 years I began to believe him, and slowly added meat to my diet. I definitely felt
better after I began to eat meat--free range and grass fed. Many aspects of my health have improved since then.

Cholesterol is the key "ingredient" involved in creating all the steroid hormones in your body. So for those of us
who have hormonal levels that tend to be too low, it's not a good thing to let cholesterol fall to such low levels. I knew a
medical doctor who used to get quite ballistic about "all those young vegetarian guys" that came to see her, "completely
drained and wasted" because they refused to eat meat. She basically reiterated the words of my father.

I do know there are some people who can thrive on a vegetarian/vegan diet, but those have been a minority. They have
a completely different metabolic type, and can get away with consuming a lot of raw fruits and vegetables with minimal
protein and no animal food. From what I've read on this forum, most of the people here who have experimented with
their diets have found that lower carbs and higher protein work better for them. I'm curious if any have found being vegan
to be healthy for them.

I haven't eaten meat for over 4 years.  I still eat eggs and dairy though.  I used to have chest pains but I haven't had any in the last four years.  I get enough vegetable protein so  not only am healthy but have gained about 30 lbs. and a lot of that muscle.

Talked to my acupuncturist at length today. Going to maintain red meat, but cut back on portions, increase wheatgrass steadily for 60 days. Glad to be getting my strength back.

[SteveD]

Hey gang,

I've been out playing through Marshalls and SVT's real loud tonight for good money...but, my mind kept drifting back to the work we're all doing here on the blogsite. Got an idea I want to throw out that I used today which was very helpful to me in my fight against POIS...Here it be:


Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome. The name has a chilling feel to it, like walking down a waxed linoleum floored, olive drably-painted hospital hallway…There is a sense of on-ness, off-ness that, for me, feels inadequate, bordering on dishonest.
  I want to use masturbation as an example of the non-black and whiteness of POIS.

  When I would decide to masturbate I would feel excitement, a thrill. I now recognise that this decision is a neurochemical change in my brain and that the feelings that accompany this decision are also neurochemical changes in my brain. This is stage one, for me. The decision to be open to being sexual.

 The second stage is more breathtaking than the first, literally, as my mind seeks for
1)   images of past sexual experiences that I have had to play back in my head
2)   new images of women I have not been sexual with to fantasize about
3)   external images: pictures, DVD’s or internet images
So, far everything is mental. There is no physical behavior. It's all in my head, but these are very real changes in me, not inconsequential activities that will eventually lead to something consequential.

   Stage three begins the physical activity. Finding a place to masturbate , uninterrupted, becoming unclothed and situated to whatever degree seems situationally appropriate. Some people would refer to this as the ritualizing stage of masturbation. No genital contact yet.This phase is almost trance like and is characterized by total focus on the ensuing act. In biology they would refer to this as a “forced solution”. Meaning the result was unstoppable and inevitable. Needless to say the neurochemical bath has increased dramatically in intensity.

  Stage four begins with genital contact accompanied with sexual fantasy through the use of memory, imagination or the external stimuli settled on in stage two. This stage can go on for quite a while, but generally, for me , I was looking for orgasm so it was a fairly brief stage.

  Finally stage five…orgasm. With other people, this is accompanied by a sense of self nurturance, good humored self-love, warmth and a feeling of safety.
…Not so with me. Upon orgasm, not even one third the way through it, my brain structure begins a catastrophic collapse, like a mental erector set suddenly crashing down in an electrical storm, followed by a tsunamic sea of horrible emotions: pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization, depression, self pity, negativity, hopelessness, disconnection, despair, rigidity, humorlessness, self-centeredness, attempts at control, demandingness and numbness.

If this is all true…and it is, for me, then how can I say it's simply orgasm that causes this. Of the losses experienced in the five stages, orgasm probably takes 80% of the toll, intensity-wise, but there is still 20% unaccounted for and, in terms of time only, the Pre Orgasmic Illness Syndrome, is considerably more costly.

Now, I have not masturbated in 18 1/2 years , but I do remember, clearly, what it was like, for me.

The point of this expostion is... if it is true that POIS is harmful to all of us, and if POIS has at least five stages, then perhaps stopping the illness at an earlier stage would be easier, more effective and could alleviate some of our very real suffering.

...Just a thought

[Coreman]

ALPHA 20 C:
I've been away for a while. I know it is VERY EXPENSIVE, that's why I've stopped taking it.

Thank you for your feedback, all. Nowadays, I test Tribulus Terrestris. It helps physical strength. Somebody else has any experience?

Keep on moving...

Best regards,

Coreman.

[demografx]

ALPHA 20 C:
I've been away for a while. I know it is VERY EXPENSIVE, that's why I've stopped taking it.

Thank you for your feedback, all. Nowadays, I test Tribulus Terrestris. It helps physical strength. Somebody else has any experience?

Keep on moving...

Best regards,

Coreman.

Hi, Coreman. Here are some POIS forum results for Tribulus Terrestris:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Tribulus+Terrestris+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&btnG=Search

[demografx]

...the work we're all doing here on the blogsite.

Steve, sorry if this sounds nitpicky, but I thought I'd chime in after repeated references to "this blogsite."

I think this is a forum not a blogsite. My understanding of a blogsite is a website that is maintained by an individual with his/her updated posts of philosophy, ideas, rants, etc.