[martin88]

Girlwind I wish you success with this new treatment. B_Jim is right in what he's saying about hormones in general so just be careful. As with any thyroid treatment check the heart function, I don't know exactly what you can do, maybe a periodic ecg. But I suppose they're taking care of this.

John, soja contains a lot of nutrients. Its absence can eventually be the cause or perhaps a lack of light or vitamin D during the winter.. About choline I took a supplement without success. In the form of lecithin or brain however I could have a good effect for 5 minutes, after the first intake only. Nothing significant. I feel that lecithin could be involved in the cure but perhaps not well absorbed. When I was younger I had success in alleviating pois with eggs but I can't have this effect again.

[demografx]

CCconfucius re SSTAR

CCc, I heard back from SSTAR's Yvonnada McNeil, (email: ymcneil AT acog.org ) - and rather than wait for the merry-go-round through her, I simply emailed back Ms. McNeil and asked her to forward my letter + attachment to Jane Ashby. So we're one step closer.

[martin88]

Thanks to all who are concerned for your investigation with SSTAR meeting.

I wanted to add to my somewhat intrusive(!)theory about phosphatemia. I'm not convinced about this but I was surprised to find the following :

from wikipedia :
hypophosphatemia
Some symptoms looks like pois :

Muscle dysfunction and weakness.This occurs in major muscles, but also may manifest as: diplopia, low cardiac output,dysphagia, and respiratory depression due to respiratory muscle weakness.Mental status changes. This may range from irritability to gross confusion,delirium, and coma.White cell dysfunction, causing worsening of infections Instability of cell membrates due to low ATP levels: this may cause
rhabdomyolysis with increased CPK, and also hemolytic anemia

link with carbohydrates :
large amounts of carbohydrates, which creates a high phosphorus demand by cells

[girlwind]

Girlwind I wish you success with this new treatment. B_Jim is right in what he's saying about hormones in general so just be careful. As with any thyroid treatment check the heart function, I don't know exactly what you can do, maybe a periodic ecg. But I suppose they're taking care of this.

Martin--I have learned that those with low normal thyroid levels (like me) are MORE at risk for heart attack.
This is one of the important reasons to treat it.  (Below, I have quotes from the website of the doctors I'm working with.)

"Low normal thyroid levels result in a higher risk of heart disease than if you have high cholesterol, high blood pressure,
if you smoke or even have diabetes. Individuals with low normal thyroid levels are 2.5 times more likely to suffer a heart attack.

This is greater than if you have high cholesterol (2.4 times risk), high blood pressure (1.6 times risk), if you smoke (2 times
risk) or have diabetes (2.4 times risk). Doctors and patients are well aware of these risk factors for heart disease but fail to cor-
rect the more important low normal thyroid levels. Many patients needlessly suffer heart attacks because their physician
tells them their thyroid is fine because it is in the normal range instead of optimizing to more optimal levels."
 
"Low thyroid is associated with an increased risk of coronary artery disease, heart attack, heart enlargement, stroke,
infections, and cancer."

Coronary-Artery Disease in Hypothyroidism.
FROM: The Lancet.

[martin88]

Girlwind I wish you success with this new treatment. B_Jim is right in what he's saying about hormones in general so just be careful. As with any thyroid treatment check the heart function, I don't know exactly what you can do, maybe a periodic ecg. But I suppose they're taking care of this.

Martin--I have learned that those with low normal thyroid levels (like me) are MORE at risk for heart attack.
This is one of the important reasons to treat it.  (Below, I have quotes from the website of the doctors I'm working with.)

"Low normal thyroid levels result in a higher risk of heart disease than if you have high cholesterol, high blood pressure,
if you smoke or even have diabetes. Individuals with low normal thyroid levels are 2.5 times more likely to suffer a heart attack.

This is greater than if you have high cholesterol (2.4 times risk), high blood pressure (1.6 times risk), if you smoke (2 times
risk) or have diabetes (2.4 times risk). Doctors and patients are well aware of these risk factors for heart disease but fail to cor-
rect the more important low normal thyroid levels. Many patients needlessly suffer heart attacks because their physician
tells them their thyroid is fine because it is in the normal range instead of optimizing to more optimal levels."
 
"Low thyroid is associated with an increased risk of coronary artery disease, heart attack, heart enlargement, stroke,
infections, and cancer."

Coronary-Artery Disease in Hypothyroidism.
FROM: The Lancet.

I should give more precisions :
I'm just saying that with any treatment for thyroid the heart should be checked for possible severe forms of arrhytmia. That's all ! Sometimes just a small test can prevent more serious problems. Note that I didn't tell you "don't take this treatment". I think that what you're saying is compatible with what I said.

[deloun]

Several months ago I requested many laboratory blood and urine tests and went to an orthomolecular doctor and one of the things she diagnosed is that I have a poor methylation. Choline plays a vital role in methylation.

Deloun, how did she determine that your methylation is poor?

Well, I've requested laboratory tests for quite a lot of things and those results together tell the story. Some of the results of the laboratory tests that are signals of poor methylation are lack of some vitamins and amino acids, relatively high homocysteine and deficiencies of some neurotransmitters. But I'll post about it later in more detail, besides poor methylation there are other things that are noticeable, so I'm planning to go through all the results again and post about the things that are noticeable here.

[deloun]

Girlwind, could you tell me what exactly isn't working correctly regarding your thyroid? A result of a laboratory test of my urine showed a normal level of T4 but a deficiency of T3 on it's own and besides that T3 is too low in relation to T4. So a deficiency of T3 and a T3/T4 ratio that is out of balance.

[martin88]

Hi Deloun,
Your results are remarkably helpful, thank you for reporting. Were these tests asked by a naturopathic doctor ?

[deloun]

Hi Deloun,
Your results are remarkably helpful, thank you for reporting. Were these tests asked by a naturopathic doctor ?

Hi martin88, you're welcome, it would be nice if it could be of any help to anyone here.
 
A little while ago I've done some research for a while to look for any substances that could be related to my POIS symptoms and that I could get tested with laboratory research. As a result I requested application forms for tests, at the European Laboratory of Nutrients (ELN) (1), a well regarded laboratory situated in the Netherlands, which has a connection to another well regarded laboratory in the USA, Vitamin Diagnostics. I filled in requests for many things that in my view and according to the research that I have done, could be related in any way to my POIS symptoms. After that I went to my local doctor and asked for a referral to a medical center in the Netherlands, Medisch Centrum (Medical Center) Rhijnauwen in Bunnik (2), who has a connection to the ELN. In this way all costs were covered by my basic health insurance in the Netherlands, except for one test, the Melisa test. For anyone who wants to get some things tested, I can recommend these two laboratories and for anyone who lives in or near the Netherlands I can recommend to do it via the Medisch Centrum Rhijnauwen (MCR) (2) to get a chance of getting the costs covered by insurance, but I recommend to always check the current state of possibilities to get it covered (I did it end of last year, so things could have changed this year) and to contact the MCR (2) about it, which I also did beforehand.

After the results were in, I've made appointments to two different orthomolecular doctors, Kim van Wetten at the MCR (2) and Robert Trossèl at the PMC Rotterdam (3), which I can both recommend and in my opinion it can never hurt to check with two different doctors.

(1) http://europeanlaboratory.com
(2) http://www.medischcentrumbunnik.nl
(3) http://www.preventiefmedischcentrum.nl

[girlwind]

Girlwind, could you tell me what exactly isn't working correctly regarding your thyroid? A result of a laboratory test of my urine showed a normal level of T4 but a deficiency of T3 on it's own and besides that T3 is too low in relation to T4. So a deficiency of T3 and a T3/T4 ratio that is out of balance.

Deloun--Your situation is similar to mine, as I also have low T3, with optimal T4. They call this "poor T4 to T3 conversion."
I took Ashwaghanda for 3 1/2 months for this. It is an adaptogenic herb that is supposed to help T4 convert to T3. I saw
some improvement and my blood test results confirmed this--when I retested just recently. I DEFINITELY felt better from
taking the Ashwaghanda, but I still have non-optimal results for both T3 and Reverse T3. Because I have had CFS for 30
years, and have taken only herbal and vitamin supplements for ALL this time, I've decided to give the hormones a chance.
I just began a round of very low dose cortisol (to boost my still non-optimal cortisol levels). After taking this for a week or
so... I will start taking a time released T3 thyroid formulation. I am going to continue all of my adrenal boosters along with
my hormones. This includes: Pantothenic acid 3-5 grams/day with 3-5 grams Vit. C; Schizandra Adrenal Complex (made by
Planetary Formulas)--6 caps; Siberian ginseng (Imperial Brand)--6 caps; B complex 100 mg; Maca powder in my morning
smoothie--approx. 1 tsp. and sea salt/seaweed in my cooking.  I also take other supplements--much too long to list here.

I would recommend that you find someone to work with who is really skilled and knowledgeable in the area of hormones.
I am seeing a couple of endocrinologists, as well as a naturopath, who has many years of experience with hormone balancing,
and an acupuncturist, who I've worked with for 20 years. I want "checks and balances," so I won't be trusting just one person
with this. I'm also educating myself as much as I can about hormones, both on line and in print. Mary Shomon's book--Living
Well With Hypothyroidism has been an excellent resource on thyroid. She also has a website.  http://www.thyroid-info.com/

And, if you want to read up on the work of the doctors I am seeing, their website has a lot of good info on many of the main
hormone issues--especially thyroid and also testosterone.   http://holtorfmed.reachlocal.net/index.php

[deloun]

Girlwind, thanks a lot for your help. I would be interested if the time released T3 thyroid formulation and other supplements will be of help to you. Interesting links you gave, thanks for that. After opening the link you gave, http://www.thyroid-info.com, I read under "Key links": "Selenium: An Essential Thyroid Nutrient". The results of the laboratory tests also showed a deficiency of selenium, do you happen to have a deficiency for this as well?

[girlwind]

Girlwind, thanks a lot for your help. I would be interested if the time released T3 thyroid formulation and other supplements will be of help to you. Interesting links you gave, thanks for that. After opening the link you gave, http://www.thyroid-info.com, I read under "Key links": "Selenium: An Essential Thyroid Nutrient". The results of the laboratory tests also showed a deficiency of selenium, do you happen to have a deficiency for this as well?

Good question... According to my last hair mineral analysis I wasn't deficient in selenium. The mineral supplement I currently
take does contain some, so that probably explains why.

[deloun]

Since many years ago I've been suspecting that the mercury in amalgam fillings could be the cause to my complaints. Then for some time I let it rest and searched for other causes and solutions, but every now and then the thoughts about the mercury returned.
A while ago I started to look further into it and to read about it on the internet and in a book to gather a lot of information about it and to search for a possible connection to POIS. During that my suspicion that it could play an important role only grew.

So I've also requested laboratory tests regarding mercury.

Tests:

I've requested a DMPS test, a saliva test for mercury and a Melisa test.

The DMPS test works by taking a mercury chelator and then collecting urine for 4 hours, which will be tested for the quantity of mercury in it.

The saliva test works by chewing on a chewing gum and then collecting the saliva, which will then be tested for the quantity of mercury.

The Melisa test is an allergy test that tests for an allergic reaction to several metals.

Results:

The DMPS and saliva tests showed way too much mercury and the melisa test showed an allergic reaction to several mercury metals.

[deloun]

Girlwind, thanks a lot for your help. I would be interested if the time released T3 thyroid formulation and other supplements will be of help to you. Interesting links you gave, thanks for that. After opening the link you gave, http://www.thyroid-info.com, I read under "Key links": "Selenium: An Essential Thyroid Nutrient". The results of the laboratory tests also showed a deficiency of selenium, do you happen to have a deficiency for this as well?

Good question... According to my last hair mineral analysis I wasn't deficient in selenium. The mineral supplement I currently
take does contain some, so that probably explains why.

OK, the tests that I've had were in urine and blood, maybe those can show deficiencies while not be shown in a hair analysis. Or maybe you already supplemented it enough like you said, yes. Both urine and blood analysis showed deficiencies of selenium.

[girlwind]

Since many years ago I've been suspecting that the mercury in amalgam fillings could be the cause to my complaints. \

I've requested a DMPS test, a saliva test for mercury and a Melisa test.

The DMPS and saliva tests showed way too much mercury and the melisa test showed an allergic reaction to several mercury metals.

Deloun--Where did you get the saliva test for mercury?  I want this!

I have had heavy metals show up in me and did a lot of different chelators. The PCA Rx was one of the better ones.
Check it out. http://ssl.maxamlabs.com/MAXAM_ASP_CMS_Templates_STD_HTML.asp?PageINDX=23

The reason that heavy metal contamination is significant to this forum, for anyone who may want to know, many sources indicate
that heavy metals are neuro-toxins as well as endocrine hormone disrupters.

[underwater]

Girlwind-- (deloun too)

Remember I asked you about this? It has always been in the "way back" of my mind. When I was a kid back in medieval times, every time I went to the hellish denist I must have had 3-4 fillings. I think at one point I had over 22 fillings in my mouth, probably by age 11. Around 12 years old, I had excruciating headaches. 14 years old growth in nipples. Absolutley horrendous sinus allergies. If you get a mercury test, then I will have to get one also. [I'm not inclined "yet" to do any hormone testing, because I think I have a different causality to my POIS.] Bummer, another thing to consider.

[deloun]

Since many years ago I've been suspecting that the mercury in amalgam fillings could be the cause to my complaints. \

I've requested a DMPS test, a saliva test for mercury and a Melisa test.

The DMPS and saliva tests showed way too much mercury and the melisa test showed an allergic reaction to several mercury metals.

Deloun--

Where did you get the saliva test for mercury?  I want this!

I have had heavy metals show up in me and did a lot of different chelators. The PCA Rx was one of the better ones.
Check it out.   http://ssl.maxamlabs.com/MAXAM_ASP_CMS_Templates_STD_HTML.asp?PageINDX=23

I've had all tests, including the saliva test, done at the European Laboratory of Nutrients (1). But I believe that the DMPS test is of more significance to show the amount of mercury inside the body, I believe that it should at least be considered to take it alongside the saliva test, if it hasn't already been analyzed yet. And off course the melisa test can be of significance, for me it showed the allergy for mercury, but is very expensive and doesn't get covered by insurance here in the Netherlands, while the others do.

Like I mentioned earlier, the European Laboratory of Nutrients works together with the Vitamin Diagnostics laboratory in the USA and some of the tests are analyzed there. I believe that I have also seen test kits for mercury saliva tests that can be ordered online on the internet.
Regarding the DMPS test, I've heard that it's better that the test is set up in such a way that the collection of the urine takes place in at least several hours, but the test itself must be set up for that, and off course the instructions should always be followed. The DMPS test of the ELN is set up to collect the urine in a period of 4 hours after the DMPS capsule has been taken.

I've made an appointment for next month with my dentist to have all my amalgam fillings replaced. But like you said, it is very important to have a long period of effective chelation therapy, which I also plan to begin with, after the fillings are replaced.

I have bought a book about mercury amalgam fillings and chelation therapy called "Amalgam Illness" by "Andrew Hall Cutler" (2), which I can really recommend. He is a chemist who himself has been sick by amalgam fillings and he has cured himself. In his book he describes a chelation protocol where alpha lipoic acid and either DMSA or DMPS are being used. I plan to follow the chelation protocol with alpha lipoic acid and DMSA, since DMSA seems to be more effective then DMPS, according to scientific research that I've read online.

(1) http://europeanlaboratory.com
(2) http://www.noamalgam.com

Edit: replaced incorrect second link by correct one

[Michael8028]

would toco-8 be tocopherol aka vitamin E ?

Yes your right.

mister_z, your guess is as good as mine! Unless "anonymous sufferer" comes forward we won't know. But don't worry, mister_z, this is the first time in 2 years since the forum started that this type of anonymous posting has occurred.
 

Hi all,

I report back now after several months of no symptoms of POIS that I have fully cured my POIS by reimbalancing my hormone  and neurotransmitter levels.No more depression, mood swings, headaches/mirgraines/foggy brain/muscle and joints pain, exhaustion, inflammation of the eyes, stomach bloating, indigestion, diaheera, stomach pain & cold,flu like symptoms after an orgasm.

You can check in my last few posts that I said I was getting furthur hormone bloodwork,  saliva and urine neurotransmitter tests done and would take the action necessary to reach optimal hormone levels.

The short version :

Low total+Free/Bio testosterone levels
Low Cortisol & Dhea levels = Adrenal fatigue
Low-Mid range Thyroid (Free T3)
Very High prolactin levels
High Estriol+Estrone levels
High Progesterone levels
Low Dht levels

Very Low Serotonin levels
Very Low Gaba levels

I made a big mistake by going on testosterone cypionate shots but i was lucky I did not completely shut down my HPTA and desensitise my testes Lh signals as I was shooting HCG* E2D to keep the natural production of T from completely shutting down.

I then had to use HCG+HMG/FSH+Toco8 to fully restart natural t production to optimal levels as I did not want to stay on T shots for life.I found that by eating more red meats, eggs and in general more protein and less carbs helped with the restart.It was not a easy process though alot of ups and downs.

I burnt my adrenals out in my late teens by overtraining in boxing and mixing that with overdrinking spirits(straight bottles of vodka, brandy etc) and taking too many stimulants and partying with very little sleep for a few years.I didnt notice the adrenal fatigue till around age 21 in my trip to New York.

Iam using 6mg of Medrol, 5mg Dhea sublingual+15mg dhea cream, Maca, Pantothenic Acid and Vitamin C to heal my adrenals. I also had a period where I would sleep in for 10-12 hours and take naps often in the day.

The cortisol from the medrol is used from the body and that shuts down the bodies own production of cortisol which gives the adrenal glands time to recover.

After starting on Medrol for around 4-6 weeks, I then started
on Armour 1/2 grain and increased 1/4 to 1/2 grain every 2 weeks too 2 grains.

I understand I will need to wean of both Medrol and Armour after 6-24 months depending on the individual.

I had very high prolactin levels which is the cause of crap libido and very slow refractory periods after an orgasm and also can cause headaches/migraines and an overall foggy, drained feeling.

I used Cabaser/Dostinex/Cabergoline(All same drug) to lower to 1/4 of the lower range which is perfect.Now I sometimes use the USP supplement Powerfull when I want to go more than once which has scientifically been proven to reduce prolactin levels and increase testosterone and dopamine levels.

I improved my good to bad estrogen ratio by taking calcium glutarate and Broccoli extract to lower the high estrone and estriol.

The very low serotonin and gaba levels which caused me anxiety, depression, mood swings and often in the past heart palpitations was cured easily by taking gaba and 5htp.

I had to drink a glass of orange juice everytime I took a 5htp tablet to make sure the 5htp would pass the brain barrier and also I found that gaba sublingually was more effective than standard oral tablets.

I was stumped on the high progesterone levels and low dht levels for a while. I looked everywhere on how to lower progesterone directly but the only sources I found proven to lower progesterone was to increase dht levels.

Luckily for me that by increasing my testosterone levels, some of the increased testosterone converted to dihydrotestosterone and then lowered my progesterone levels
 

I guess when you sort one thing out it will reach to the rest.

Once my DHT+Test levels were near the top of the range, E2 mid range and Prolactin was within 1/4 of the lower range this is when I feel my best for libido, overall physically feeling a hell of a lot stronger and very confident mentally.

I do still monitor my hormone levels every month or 2 as sometimes I get lazy with supplements and diet or I have a period of eating crap junk food .. lol

oh ... I solved my stomach bloating and indigestion by taking Hydrochloride Betaine, Q-Zyme Digestive Enzyeme blend and primal defense Ultra probiotic formula.

I recommend everyone to have their hormones and neurotransmitter checked either through their local gp/dr or through an independant lab, ZRT, Quest etc

Hormones:

Total+Free/Bio Test, LH+FSH, Estradiol(E2), SHBG, Prolactin, Cortisol(Saliva, morning, noon, evening, night), Dhea, IGF-1, Progetesterone, Dht, Free T3 (Free T4,TSH if possible),

You will know exactly what is wrong and there would be no more second guessing

Remember even if you have already had hormone tests done and your doctor says you are fine or normal. It usually isnt the case as they do go by ranges only and not age to range.For example :

A 70 year old male could have a Total testosterone level of

350 with ranges of 250-850

but a 21 yr old could have the same level yet most drs will say you are normal because you are within range.

The dont tell you that 250-350 test level is normal for a 70-80 yr old and the upper range 800+ is normal for a late teenager or early 20s. Obviously we feel the best when our t levels are higher than lower.

A good doc would do furthur tests like E2, Prolactin, Cortisol, Free T3, SHBG and others to check what is causing the low t levels even if it is within "range".

It happened to me and I let it go for years thinking there was nothing wrong with my hormone levels until I started to do my own research and studying many Anti Aging Specialists posts on the anabolic and metaphorsis forums.


I did all my tests at home even the blood tests (just a simple pr.ick of the finger) and did them the morning after an ejaculation. This way it showed me exactly what was going wrong in my body during the symptoms of POIS.

I kind of knew I had low testosterone as I had no drive for life, no libido and felt like sh1t in general and lost a ton of strength and muscle and gained alot of weight in fat.

I also guessed I had adrenal fatigue due to having no energy all day and night dispite sleeping 10-12 hours. I didnt want to speak to people and even had social anxiety due to the crap adrenal fatigue but the good thing is that I have it no more

I had no idea about the high prolactin, low DHT, high Progesterone, High estrone & Estriol(Bad estrogens) so it is best to get everything checked as much as possible.

hmmm ... i think thats all for now, any questions please fire away.

Michael




*HCG

Benefits of HCG supplementation:
1. Aesthetic maintenance of testicular size
2. Maintaining activity of testicular Leydig cells - promoting natural testosterone production - preventing primary hypogonadism
3. Improving sex drive greatly (perhaps more so than just with testosterone replacement

HCG acts like LH (Luteinizing Hormone).

LH has several actions, such as:
1. It stimulates testosterone production from the testes
2. It stimulates the production of aromatase enzyme
3. It stimulates the production of Cytochrome P450sc enzyme

Written by a Physician, Psychiatrist, Behavioral Neuroendocrinology, Immunology, and Nutrition = Psychiatry in Dr Romeo B. Mariano.

The above was taking from my posts made several months back.

[deloun]

Girlwind-- (deloun too)

Remember I asked you about this? It has always been in the "way back" of my mind. When I was a kid back in medieval times, every time I went to the hellish denist I must have had 3-4 fillings. I think at one point I had over 22 fillings in my mouth, probably by age 11. Around 12 years old, I had excruciating headaches. 14 years old growth in nipples. Absolutley horrendous sinus allergies. If you get a mercury test, then I will have to get one also. [I'm not inclined "yet" to do any hormone testing, because I think I have a different causality to my POIS.] Bummer, another thing to consider.

Yes, I remember to have read about it before on the forum. I recognize it, that it has always been in the back of my mind too, since a long time. It's probably a good idea to get tests done regarding mercury, but in my view the only way to be sure remains to get the fillings replaced and go through chelation therapy, in the end.

[deloun]

Michael8028, congratulations with the fact that you have cured your POIS!