[demografx]

Demo, weren't you going almost a year without any added testosterone, believing that Levitra was a 50-75% cure?

CP, I think testosterone injections were always in the background, but I don't recall when I stopped. And even after stopping it was in my system. I assumed erroneously that the Levitra was the cure! I can't tell you exactly when, but I do know that I was POIS-miserable before re-starting T. And I was way below 50%, which I wrote in one of my posts. Whatever improvement it was could have been from previous testosterone injections that re-adjusted my system positively. Either that, or a prolonged placebo effect! Levitra was clearly (in retrospect) a downhill slide.

Regardless of the "mystery", I have tested myself without Levitra, and now have no doubt that testosterone is my cure. I will make the change on wikipedia.

But if that [testosterone] were the (sole) cause of POIS, wouldn't about 5-10% of the planet complain of these symptoms?

I agree it's going overboard to assume POIS = testosterone for everybody, but I wouldn't be surprised if hypogonadism - which is my diagnosis "on the record" - and POIS are highly correlated. So yes, I wouldn't be surprised if 5 - 10% of the planet had a high incidence of POIS. Retrospectively, I was one of those people on the planet, but who could I complain to? It took me MANY years to get the courage to open my mouth to a physician. And you know what happened when I did! (Because it happened to most of us: Zero response or dismissive attitude!)

Also, I think these tests should be done when you are feeling your worst.  Then we don't have to hypothesize about what levels might be going to, when you are symptomatic.

I disagree. In my case, out-of-POIS revealed a chronic deficiency, justifying 24/7 treatment. It's reasonable to assume that my testosterone would only be worse in-POIS.

I think testosterone could be extremely important in a lot of cases. But let's not jump to conclusions or generalize. There's also the question of 'adrenal fatigue' vs 'adrenal hyperactivity'. We aren't all in the same boat.

I agree.

[demografx]

This is breaking news! I have always hoped for a one-thing solution and we've seen several now on the forum. Awesome!

Counterpoints, you quoted Rocky above as part of the testosterone-only discussion. I think what he meant by "a one-thing solution" was not just testosterone, but Relora, Fenugreek, Claritin, etc., i.e., a POIS treatment not requiring a complicated mix of ingredients. And different solutions for different people.

[demografx]

B_Jim, thanks for that. Would you mind repeating your current regimen/treatment for POIS? And is it about 65% effective?

[demografx]

TESTOSTERONE

Demo's experiment proves ejaculation affects testosterone levels. Dispite general studies (ejaculation don't affect steroids levels). It's another form of Pois or Pos. I read a lot of Pois testimonies. Each time i see case talking about "mood change after ejaculation" , "not motivated after orgasm", I think they are close to Demo's case.

I've wondered for a long time if testosterone could help even those POIS sufferers with normal testosterone levels?

To me, that is where in-POIS testing could possibly be useful. If there is a dramatic drop of T at ejaculation and that causes POIS in some people, then short-acting T, e.g., injection could prevent the POIS damage? Just a thought.

[Counterpoints]

Also, I think these tests should be done when you are feeling your worst.  Then we don't have to hypothesize about what levels might be going to, when you are symptomatic.

I disagree. In my case, out-of-POIS revealed a chronic deficiency, justifying 24/7 treatment. It's reasonable to assume that my testosterone would only be worse in-POIS.

If there is a chronic deficiency, it will likely be picked up during in-POIS testing or out-of-POIS testing.  If there is an acute problem that surfaces while symptomatic, it is more likely to be picked up during in-POIS testing, than during out-of-POIS testing.

Therefore in-POIS testing is more likely to reveal a problem.

Also, if a hormone is found to be somewhat low during out-of-POIS testing, I think it is much better to have it then tested in-POIS, than to speculate on what is happening with that hormone while symptomatic.  Then we know, with almost 100% certainty what is happening, and we don't have to speculate.

Ideally, it would be good to have in-POIS and out-of-POIS tests.  But in-POIS seems like a more reasonable starting point.  If you take the tests out-of-POIS, and you do have an acute problem, or a problem that gets much worse in POIS (and would be notable on an in-POIS test), there is a chance the test results will look somewhat normal, and neither you nor your physician will see any urgency for a re-test.

[demografx]

If there is a chronic deficiency, it will likely be picked up during in-POIS testing or out-of-POIS testing.

I really don't see how a chronic deficiency can be picked up during in-POIS testing. If, for example, testosterone drops dramatically, but in-POIS only (only after orgasm), how would we know looking at the in-POIS results that this is just a momentary drop or a chronic one?

I started out intending to do in-POIS testing, but my interest in moving more quickly is why I accidentally found the benefit of out-of-POIS testing. I'm glad I did.

If my results in-POIS came back on testosterone, I don't see how the next step, treatment recommendation, could be made reliably and accurately.

I think out-of-POIS testing is a more reasonable starting point. At least it worked out that way in my case.

[ajs]

look at candida symptoms for link between histamine and carbs

[Counterpoints]

If there is a chronic deficiency, it will likely be picked up during in-POIS testing or out-of-POIS testing.

I really don't see how a chronic deficiency can be picked up during in-POIS testing. If, for example, testosterone drops dramatically, but in-POIS only (only after orgasm), how would we know looking at the in-POIS results that this is just a momentary drop or a chronic one?

I started out intending to do in-POIS testing, but my interest in moving more quickly is why I accidentally found the benefit of out-of-POIS testing. I'm glad I did.

If my results in-POIS came back on testosterone, I don't see how the next step, treatment recommendation, could be made reliably and accurately.

I think out-of-POIS testing is a more reasonable starting point. At least it worked out that way in my case.

If there's a problem, in-POIS testing is more likely to identify it than out of POIS testing.  You may not know whether the problem is chronic, or not, but you know it exists.  If there is a positive result, you follow up with repeat tests.  On the other hand, a normal out-of-POIS test may make it more difficult to proceed with further testing: you may no longer feel urgency to repeat tests, and your physician may not either.

Therefore, in this medical system, starting with an in-POIS test (with follow-up tests) appears more rational, in the balance of probabilities.  If an in-POIS test is normal, I would still consider an out-of-POIS test though.

[demografx]

If there's a problem, in-POIS testing is more likely to identify it than out of POIS testing.  You may not know whether the problem is chronic, or not, but you know it exists.  If there is a positive result, you follow up with repeat tests.  On the other hand, a normal out-of-POIS test may make it more difficult to proceed with further testing: you may no longer feel urgency to repeat tests, and your physician may not either.

Therefore, in this medical system, starting with an in-POIS test (with follow-up tests) appears more rational, in the balance of probabilities.  If an in-POIS test is normal, I would still consider an out-of-POIS test though.

Good points, CP, but unfortunately follow-up testing, vs. immediate treatment seems to be the outcome of in-POIS testing. And I was very happy to minimize my number of required tests. Still, I had to repeat my out-of-POIS test to see if the treatment in fact increased testosterone.

Maybe I was lucky, because I was able to go right into treatment mode (after MRI ruled out tumors). And since testosterone is my POIS culprit (the treatment worked), I don't have to worry about finding any other POIS culprit with added in-POIS testing.

But you're right that generally, in-POIS testing does seem to be the better starting point, because others may not be so lucky with problem detection. And because of the likely reluctance to re-test after a normal out-of-POIS test, as you point out.

I wish there were a way to accommodate the best of both worlds without repeat testing!

I have a question: why would you recommend an out-of-POIS test if in-POIS testing results are normal?

[demografx]

look at candida symptoms for link between histamine and carbs

Hi ajs, are you a POIS sufferer?

[ajs]

YES! I am a 36 and a chic who developed pois after shingles which now i am not sure thats what i really had 3 years ago. Now my pois hell has turned into an everyday hell which is a 1000x aggrevated by orgasm. I have been watching site for 2 years and reading everything but i can't stand typing so i never chimed in until someone was kinda on the same path or theory i was...Histamine and candida only because my symptoms(which r the same as everyone's) has progressed to acid reflux,hives after everything i eat and excema.Started candida diet and started on diflucan for systemic fungus and have on off days but have not felt this good in years...i dont know if its the answer but it could?? be the underlying condition...hormones,neurotransmitters,immune system

[ajs]

.....check out candidafree.net and absoluteastronomy.com/topics/histamine.....caution! I am a big dumb animal when it comes to computers so i dont know how to put links on here

[GoingCrazy]

hey guys

this is my second day on relora and already I am starting to feel like as I did a few years ago....... normal.  last night I went to bed at 6 am and woke up this morning at 1030... and I feel like I had a full nights rest, a lot better than I did while sleeping about 12 hours a night.  I just feel a lot normal, relaxed, and everything is just right.  My focus has gone up 10 fold and I feel friggin awesome.   [8D]  I haven't orgasmed yet but I intend on not doing it because I just love the way I am feeling right now a bit too much.  Although I believe orgasm will just make me more relaxed now.  Relora is the cure, at least for me    [O8)]

[demografx]

GC, great to hear about your Relora experience. I hope it sustains!

[Counterpoints]

If there's a problem, in-POIS testing is more likely to identify it than out of POIS testing.  You may not know whether the problem is chronic, or not, but you know it exists.  If there is a positive result, you follow up with repeat tests.  On the other hand, a normal out-of-POIS test may make it more difficult to proceed with further testing: you may no longer feel urgency to repeat tests, and your physician may not either.

Therefore, in this medical system, starting with an in-POIS test (with follow-up tests) appears more rational, in the balance of probabilities.  If an in-POIS test is normal, I would still consider an out-of-POIS test though.

Good points, CP, but unfortunately follow-up testing, vs. immediate treatment seems to be the outcome of in-POIS testing. And I was very happy to minimize my number of required tests. Still, I had to repeat my out-of-POIS test to see if the treatment in fact increased testosterone.

Maybe I was lucky, because I was able to go right into treatment mode (after MRI ruled out tumors). And since testosterone is my POIS culprit (the treatment worked), I don't have to worry about finding any other POIS culprit with added in-POIS testing.

But you're right that generally, in-POIS testing does seem to be the better starting point, because others may not be so lucky with problem detection. And because of the likely reluctance to re-test after a normal out-of-POIS test, as you point out.

I wish there were a way to accommodate the best of both worlds without repeat testing!

I have a question: why would you recommend an out-of-POIS test if in-POIS testing results are normal?

Because it is nice to have a "reference point" from abnormal symptoms.  e.g. an in-POIS test might seem normal, but it could be revealing to see how things change out of POIS.

On another note, it's nice to hear that you continue to do well!

[demografx]

ajs, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!



The consensus at this forum to heal your POIS, is to start with hormonal bloodtesting, preferably with an endocrinologist.

Here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful to you:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send "Pyropeach" a Private Message with your regular email address and he'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, e.g., "pyropeach".

New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse


In addition to serving our own informational interests, the resources listed above can be useful for you to show the medical world - which often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition - that POIS has scientific underpinnings and that POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapist community.

Also, it can be helpful when dealing with medical professionals to point out the successful existence of our rapidly growing forum for over 2 years, which has attracted over 100 POIS sufferers worldwide who have posted here, plus more than 250,000 page visits. Not bad for a rare malady!

[demografx]

SOME TESTOSTERONE TESTING

Someone here asked me privately for my "free testosterone" testing results (much more was tested), so I thought I'd post it in case anyone else is interested:


Before POIS treatment:
(December 2, '08)
                                    reference range

%FREE T            1.47 %           1.5 - 2.2
FREE T             24.4 pg/mL        35 - 155


After POIS treatment:
(March 2, '09 after about 6 weeks of wearing T-patches)


%FREE T             1.45 %             1.5 - 2.2
FREE T              37.0 pg/mL          35 - 155


Free T jumped 50%, from 24.4 to 37.0. Effect: 90% POIS cure.

Endocrinologist expects the numbers to keep increasing through June. If they don't, he'll switch me from Androderm T-patches 10mg daily to a pump gel to increase my testosterone.

[Ambient123]

Hey guys, my results came through, and it would appear that my cortisol is normal...so i'm quite frustrated today. lol

One question i had about this for you Demografx, or anyone else who can answer it:

Does cortisol levels indicate Testosterone Levels, or will only T testing indicate T levels?

I am asking this because my T theory still holds up, and as someone said earlier, all POIS seems to be related to T in some way. Certainly seems to be in my case.

Thanks

Ambient

[Counterpoints]

Interesting ideas B_Jim.  I also think, in my case, there is an "addiction" component.  Sometimes it takes me several orgasms to get "free" of POIS -- but this freedom is temporary.  A day or two later, I often end up with severe symptoms, which include intense "cravings for release". 

Here is an interesting article about the male neurological response to orgasm: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/23/27/9185
It is one of the most detailed studies I have seen.  Now we have studies on the neuro-endocrine and neurological response.  (Probably good to add to the database).  There is a connection in how heroin and orgasm both affect the ventral tegmental area (VTA).


Other useful links:
1) Interview with Dr. Gert Holstege: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/mind/stories/s1407052.htm

2) Central nervous system control of ejaculation.
Author: Holstege G.
Publisher: World Journal of Urolology. 2005 May 4;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15875196&query_hl=1

3) The Emotional Brain: Neural Correlates Of Cat Sexual Behavior And Human Male Ejaculation
Author: Holstege, G., Georgiadis, J.R.
Publisher: Progress In Brain Research, vol. 143, 39-45, 2004.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14653149&query_hl=3

[Counterpoints]

Ambient,

A cortisol test is not adequate to infer testosterone levels.  Get a free and total testosterone test.