# What if an aether existed?

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#### McQueen

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##### What if an aether existed?
« on: 10/05/2016 02:14:00 »
What would be the implications if new proof became  available that an aether did in fact exist?  What exactly would be the implications and repercussions for established physics.  Of course the old concept of a stationary, extremely stiff aether such as is described in the luminiferous aether theories, has been disproved beyond any reasonable doubt by the Michelson-Morley experiment, which also led to new proof of the constancy of the speed of light in a vacuum, similarly aetherosphere theories, wherein the aether exists in a small pocket around the earth are also unrealistic and defunct.  Yet the possibility of a dynamic type of aether is a stronger possibility today than it was in the 1920's when the idea of an aether was abandoned and Einstein's relativity theories came to the fore.

The Michelson-Morley experiment is a watershed moment in the history of Modern Physics, because it yielded two apparently contradictory results, on the one hand the fact that light travelling against the movement of the earth did not slow down, as would have been the case if an aether of the type described as the luminfeorus aether, which was thought to possess a stiffness and rigidity greater than that of steel existed, on the other hand, the fact that the experiment proved the speed of light was a constant, pointed strongly to the fact that an invisible medium through which light propagated must be present. This statement deserves a more involved explanation.

Two opposing ideas emerged from the Michelson-Morley experiment. For many years proof had existed that radio-waves ( electromagnetic radiation ) and even light travelled in the form of transverse waves. The subject had been thoroughly investigated and there was little doubt of this fact. However, there is a problem with this. Waves traveling through the bulk of a fluid (such as a liquid or a gas) are almost always longitudinal waves. Transverse waves require a relatively rigid medium in order to transmit their energy.  As one particle begins to move it must be able to exert a pull on its nearest neighbor. If the medium is not rigid as is the case with fluids, the particles will slide past each other. This sliding action which is characteristic of liquids and gases prevents one particle from displacing its neighbor in a direction perpendicular to the energy transport.  Hence an aether if it did exist would have to possess a rigidity approaching that of steel and would therefore be easily detectable..  In direct opposition to this is the fact that the Michelson-Morley experiment  proved beyond doubt that the speed of light is constant. It is a well known fact that the speed with which a wave moves is solely determined by the medium through which it moves. Once a wave is created, the only reason its speed will change is if it enters a different medium or if the properties of the medium change. Therefore the fact that the Michelson-Morley experiment had proved beyond a doubt that the speed of light was constant was a strong indication that an invisible medium did exist.  Unfortunately of the two possibilities, the enormous influence of Maxwell's work with electromagnetic radiation took foremost importance in everyone's mind and since his equations seemed to indicate that an aether was not needed for the propagation of light, the idea of an aether was abandoned. Yet, ironically, the proof of the michelson-morley experiment was a more or less sure indicator that some sort of medium was present, the speed of light as constant indicated this very strongly.

What type of aether would have been acceptable to both Einstein, Lorentz and other scientists of the time. Indisputably and without any doubt it would have to be an aether that fused both electromagnetic radiation and gravity into a simple all encompassing solution. How is this possible ? One extremely simple solution is to start with the premise that the aether itself possesses electromagnetic properties.  Certainly the circumstances under which this could have come into being are present in abundance. The early Universe was filled with light, where did that light go ? Further what changes did that light undergo during the expansion phase. One strong possibility is that during the expansion phase of the Universe, light also, because of its physical structure and ability to interconnect  spread out throughout the entire Universe, losing energy till to all purposes it became undetectable !  According to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle the very low energies of these early photons, meant that their lifetimes could extend almost indefinitely.

Thus a picture begins to emerge of the aether as an infinite number of more or less fixed dipoles that permeate the entire Universe, and have the ability to orient themselves in any direction. Such an aether would not only explain all the properties of light and of gravity but would explain phenomena such as super-conductivity.

The existence of an aether would also make many of the provisions of special relativity and general relativity defunct. However, not surprisingly given the brilliance of Albert Einstein, many of the conclusions drawn ffrom the fact that the speed of light is constant would not be affected, it would still serve as the infinite speed of the Universe, nothing can travel faster.
If one examines the concept of faster than light speeds, one soon comes to the conclusion that the Universe as we know it would immediately cease to exist; there would be no time, no then, no now and no when, there would be no here and no there. In short the Universe would exist as a continuum in which every event and every place all existed simultaneously. It would be chaos!

Another extremely important consequence of an aether would be that the principle of wave/particle duality , at least in its present form , would be out on its ear.

Dilip D. James (aka McQueen) has put forward an aether of the type described:

If you are interested in reading more about Gestalt Aether Theory or GAT, the following links might be useful:

The first proof of the GAT (Gestalt Aether Theory) claims that the long cherished belief that it is the electron that is the fundamental charge carrier is false. Instead GAT claims that the fundamental charge carrier is the photon, and presents mathematical and written evidence in support of this claim. Surely this is an important enough assertion to deserve attention, especially since it is a well documented and observed fact that in every other interaction that involves electrons and energy exchange it is photons that are the mediators.  By introducing the concept of the photon as the fundamental charge carrier, the propagation of electricity is brought into line with all other observed phenomena involving electrons and energy exchange.

The second proof of the GAT claims that the present widely held belief that  electromagnetic radiation (in the radio wave wave lengths) is due to two or three causative factors, such as:

1) spin of the electron
2) revolution of the electron around the nucleus
3) spin of ions
4) vibrations of the crystal lattice in the conductor and so forth.,
is false.

GAT Theory claims that radio waves, just like visible light are also due to photon emission and thus brings into line the two phenomena, which apart from radio waves having massive (comparatively) wave lengths, share all other properties in common. Please do read and evaluate. Notice that there is a single causative factor for both visible light and radio waves, although implemented differently.

The third proof of the GAT puts forward the claim that light is finite, it does not travel for ever, as is assumed by Quantum Mechanics and modern physics and that the propagation of  incoherent light follows the inverse square law. It is asserted that the validity of this claim can be proven through experiment and mathematical calculations.

The fourth proof of the GAT (gestalt Aether Theory) examines the modern day theory of scattering and reflection of light and finds that it may be in error. A claim is made that light is composed of lines of photons and that these lines of photons  travel in straight lines. (a la Newton).

The Fifth Proof of the GAT Gestalt Aether Theory deals with the mechanism governing reflection in any type of medium.

More proofs of the Gestalt Aether Theory will be posted at regular intervals.
« Last Edit: 15/05/2016 09:39:06 by chris »
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### stacyjones

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #1 on: 10/05/2016 02:54:35 »
If the aether exists, has mass, physically occupies three dimensional space and is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it it would mean the current notion of dark matter is incorrect.

It would mean we have finally related general relativity and quantum mechanics as Einstein's gravitational wave and de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality both propagate through it.

It would mean we would understand what curved spacetime physically manifests itself as which is the state of displacement of the aether.

We would have laid the foundation for a theory of everything.

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #2 on: 10/05/2016 04:11:11 »
It would mean we have finally related general relativity and quantum mechanics as Einstein's gravitational wave and de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality both propagate through it.

If an aether is in fact found to exist, neither General Relativity nor De Broglie matter waves would have any existence. The existence of the aether would violate Lorentz's rule of invariance.
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #3 on: 10/05/2016 06:22:16 »
The first step towards accepting the possibility that an aether exists would be to re-examine the Quantum mechanics theory on the propagation of an electric current.  Max Planck had established with the formulation of the Planck Postulate   that electromagnetic energy could be emitted only in quantized form, in other words, the energy could only be a multiple of an elementary unit:
E = hν
where h is Planck's constant. Yet amazingly the quantum mechanics explanation of electricity propagation is through electromagnetic propagation as a wave:

The mechanism of energy transport through a medium involves the absorption and re-emission of the wave energy by the atoms of the material. When an electromagnetic wave impinges upon the atoms of a material, the energy of that wave is absorbed. The absorption of energy causes the electrons within the atoms to undergo vibrations. After a short period of vibrational motion, the vibrating electrons create a new electromagnetic wave with the same frequency as the first electromagnetic wave. While these vibrations occur for only a very short time, they delay the motion of the wave through the medium. Once the energy of the electromagnetic wave is reemitted by an atom, it travels through a small region of space between atoms. Once it reaches the next atom, the electromagnetic wave is absorbed, transformed into electron vibrations and then reemitted as an electromagnetic wave. While the electromagnetic wave will travel at a speed of c (3 x 108 m/s) through the vacuum of interatomic space, the absorption and reemission process causes the net speed of the electromagnetic wave to be less than c.

If photons are involved in the propagation of an electric current it is halfway towards proving that an aether does indeed exist.
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #4 on: 10/05/2016 08:57:33 »
the fact that the experiment proved the speed of light was a constant, pointed strongly to the fact that an invisible medium through which light propagated must be present.

On the contrary, it suggested that light, like a projectile, travels through a total vacuum at a constant speed.

In the presence of a dispersive medium (i.e. one with mass and stiffness) both the energy and intensity of a collimated light beam would decrease with distance from the source. Neither happens.

helping to stem the tide of ignorance

#### stacyjones

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #5 on: 10/05/2016 11:36:56 »
If an aether is in fact found to exist, neither General Relativity nor De Broglie matter waves would have any existence. The existence of the aether would violate Lorentz's rule of invariance.

From the Newton's laws to motions of the fluid and superfluid vacuum: vortex tubes, rings, and others'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.3900

"This medium, called also the aether, has mass and is populated by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it" ...

... and displace it.

#### stacyjones

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #6 on: 10/05/2016 11:42:35 »
The first step towards accepting the possibility that an aether exists would be to re-examine the Quantum mechanics theory on the propagation of an electric current.

One of the first steps is understanding Maxwell's displacement current is a physical displacement of the aether.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories#Luminiferous_aether

Quote
James Clerk Maxwell said of the aether, "In several parts of this treatise an attempt has been made to explain electromagnetic phenomena by means of mechanical action transmitted from one body to another by means of a medium occupying the space between them. The undulatory theory of light also assumes the existence of a medium. We have now to show that the properties of the electromagnetic medium are identical with those of the luminiferous medium."

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #7 on: 10/05/2016 11:54:36 »
The first step towards accepting the possibility that an aether exists would be to
..abandon rational thought and all you know about physics.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

#### stacyjones

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #8 on: 10/05/2016 12:21:44 »
..abandon rational thought and all you know about physics.

Or, understand there is evidence of the strongly interacting dark matter every time a double slit experiment is performed, it's what waves.

The wave of wave-particle duality is a wave in the strongly interacting dark matter.

In a double slit experiment the particle is always detected traveling through a single slit because it always travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the strongly interacting dark matter which passes through both.

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #9 on: 13/05/2016 11:38:15 »
The whole gist of this thread is that very basic, extremely fundamental aspects of physics show that a perfectly logical explanation for the speed of light being constant does exist.  Whereas Einstein, as well as most living physicists today, don’t seem to have a clue as to why or how the speed of light is constant!  A commonly found explanation from physicists as to why the speed of light is constant, might go like this :

“Maxwell’s equations clearly point to the fact that the speed of light is what it is !  What more can anyone need!” Although Maxwell’s equation:  $$c = \frac{1}{\sqrt\mu_0\epsilon_0}$$ does yield the speed of light, it is important to understand that the values for both $$\mu_0$$and $$\epsilon_0$$ cannot be calculated from more basic physics.  Both must be determined experimentally.   In the case of the magnetic constant $$\mu¬¬_0$$ it is dependent on the properties of the electron and has to be determined experimentally  and not theoretically, while the term $$\epsilon_0$$ the permittivity of free space cannot be determined unless the speed of light is known!  So to say that Maxwell’s equations predict the speed of light, is really not saying anything at all. n.b. $$\epsilon_0= \frac{1}{\mu_0{c^2}}$$
Of course if a medium, in the form of an aether,  did exist and indeed all the latest evidence in physics seems to be pointing in this direction, then the question of why and how the speed of light is constant does not arise,it just is !

AND if the speed of light is constant because it propagates through a medium, then a lot of the premises of special relativity and general relativity in particular will no longer hold true.  In the same way the holy grail of Quantum Mechanics , namely the principle of wave/particle duality will be out of the window.

« Last Edit: 13/05/2016 11:43:08 by McQueen »
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #10 on: 13/05/2016 11:54:05 »
The gravitational constant is also involved in a circular calculation with various Planck values. So what? That is simply another indication that general relativity is right.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #11 on: 13/05/2016 12:20:28 »
The gravitational constant is also involved in a circular calculation with various Planck values. So what? That is simply another indication that general relativity is right.

There are certain posts that are better off being ignored! Further planck's constant plays a fundamental part in what I have been saying. So , as the saying goes, what ?
« Last Edit: 13/05/2016 12:48:00 by McQueen »
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### stacyjones

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #12 on: 13/05/2016 12:37:42 »
AND if the speed of light is constant because it propagates through a medium, then a lot of the premises of special relativity and general relativity in particular will no longer hold true.  In the same way the holy grail of Quantum Mechanics , namely the principle of wave/particle duality will be out of the window.

The speed of light is always determined to be 'c' because the aether is relativistic. Meaning, the atomic clocks used to determine the speed of light tick at the rate they do due to the state of the aether in which they exist.

The wave of wave-particle duality is a wave in the aether. In a double slit experiment the particle always travels through a single slit, it is the associated wave in the aether which passes through both.

#### stacyjones

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #13 on: 13/05/2016 12:44:02 »
The gravitational constant is also involved in a circular calculation with various Planck values. So what? That is simply another indication that general relativity is right.

What is referred to geometrically as curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the aether.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/gpb_results.html

Quote
"Imagine the Earth as if it were immersed in honey. As the planet rotates, the honey around it would swirl, and it's the same with space and time," said Francis Everitt, GP-B principal investigator at Stanford University.

Honey has mass and so does the aether. The swirl is the state of displacement of the aether.

The aether displaced by the Earth pushing back and exerting pressure toward the Earth is gravity.

The state of displacement of the aether is gravity.

#### arcmetal

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #14 on: 14/05/2016 21:27:32 »

...  By introducing the concept of the photon as the fundamental charge carrier, the propagation of electricity is brought into line with all other observed phenomena involving electrons and energy exchange.

After all these years of trying to figure out what electricity is made of, I am finding this idea of
it being photons rather interesting.

#### stacyjones

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #15 on: 14/05/2016 21:41:36 »
After all these years of trying to figure out what electricity is made of, I am finding this idea of it being photons rather interesting.

One way to conceptualize the aether is to consider it to be a sea of photons which are displaced by the matter.

The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the sea of photons analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.

What ripples when galaxy clusters collide is what waves in a double slit experiment, the sea of photons filling 'empty' space.

Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality, both are waves in the sea of photons.

The sea of photons displaced by matter relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.
« Last Edit: 14/05/2016 23:06:45 by stacyjones »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #16 on: 14/05/2016 23:13:28 »
After all these years of trying to figure out what electricity is made of, I am finding this idea of it being photons rather interesting.
Electricity is a flow of electric charge. Photons are uncharged, and so cannot carry electric charge.
Electrons, protons, positrons and "holes" (the "absence" of an electron) are all charged, and can carry electricity.

One way to conceptualize the aether is to consider it to be a sea of photons which are displaced by the matter.
In space, we do see a sea of photons - it is variously called the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) or Sunlight, depending on its spectrum and source.
The pressure of sunlight has been used for experiments on Solar Sail propulsion (and it has been affecting comet tails before that). But the pressures are miniscule - not nearly enough to produce Earth's gravity.

And if you are talking about virtual photons as the carriers of the electromagnetic force (eg Van Der Waals force), I can assure you that they are alive and well, and holding together the rocks beneath our feet. They are not displaced by the matter, but are in fact what hold the matter together.

#### stacyjones

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #17 on: 14/05/2016 23:20:06 »
In space, we do see a sea of photons - it is variously called the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) or Sunlight, depending on its spectrum and source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background

Quote
The CMB is a cosmic background radiation

Quote

I am not referring to photons traveling at 'c'. I am referring to the sea of photons which fill 'empty' space analogous to the H2O molecules which fill the oceans.

It is the sea of photons filling 'empty' space which are displaced by the particles of matter the Earth consists of. It is the sea of photons displaced by the Earth pushing back and exerting pressure toward the Earth which is gravity.

#### arcmetal

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #18 on: 15/05/2016 03:03:14 »
After all these years of trying to figure out what electricity is made of, I am finding this idea of it being photons rather interesting.
Electricity is a flow of electric charge. Photons are uncharged, and so cannot carry electric charge.
Electrons, protons, positrons and "holes" (the "absence" of an electron) are all charged, and can carry electricity.

Could electricity then be a portion of the electron that travels as electricity, I mean some wave component of the electron?  Since it is one electron "bumping" (repulsion) into the next electron which then sets up a propagation wave that travels at near the speed of light.

I've noticed that its the signal that travels through the wires at the speed of light, the electrons move at a much smaller terminal velocity. If its moving at near the speed of light, I can't imagine its any massive particle that is moving that fast in copper wire at room temperature. Usually things that move that fast in a simple environment tend to be EM waves. Which might suggest that its the electron's wave component that is traveling like an EM wave. (or its just an EM wave ... which wouldn't that be a photon?)

So, are you saying its the charge of the electron that is traveling at that high speed across a wire?  That would imply that an electron's charge is able to travel from one electron to the next.

I think I'll need to try an calculate the speed of charge displacement in a simple "battery-switch-capacitor" circuit.
« Last Edit: 15/05/2016 06:09:43 by arcmetal »

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #19 on: 15/05/2016 06:53:56 »
As pointed out during the post, the ideal form for the aether, always supposing that such an aether exists, would be if it were an electromagnetic one.  In this thread  we have attempted to  show how light can have electromagnetic properties by connecting up from the tiniest sub-atomic causes, to the biggest conceivable cosmic cataclysmic event of the Big Bang.
Gestalt Theory of the aether suggests that since the electron is the fundamental unit of charge in nature and is a charged particle. The manner in which it regulates its energy is by emitting small bursts of electrical energy. These bursts of electrical energy are not emitted in one go but in small bursts of energy. See pic.

What could be more natural than that the electron, a charged particle , regulates its energy by emitting and absorbing burst of electrical charge ?
Furthermore since these small bursts of electrical energy emitted by the electron are separated by small distances from each other and probably have differing strengths , with the strongest discharges being emitted first and the weaker ones subsequently, a natural consequence of this might be that the bursts of electrical energy emitted by the electron become polarized, with the result that an electromagnetic field takes shape around them forming a solenoid, making them electrically neutral.

The photon as it is in this form, is electrically neutral, can preserve its energy, is to all reason massless, odourless, moves at the speed of light and so on. A photon might take the completed form given below:

Further this is also the exact physical form that a ‘virtual photon’ of the virtual photon aether might take, as can be seen it is identical to a ‘real photon’ except that it has vanishingly small energy.
Thus if an aether as described here exists it is an electromagnetic aether, consisting of innumerable more or less fixed dipoles that are free to orientate themselves in 360 degrees and that permeate every last bit of the Universe. Such an aether would be electrically neutral, it would be massless , odourless, impossible to detect, would travel through matter as easily as if matter did not exists, since no electrons would be able to interact with photons of such low energies.  Yet at the same time, far from being the static aether of the 18th and 19th Century, it would be a highly dynamic aether, that was sensitive to the slightest change in energy and could line up in the direction of propagation of a real photon or even that of a ‘virtual photon’ giving a ephemeral tug that constitutes gravity.
This is why the speed of light is constant.

[/quote]
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #20 on: 15/05/2016 10:10:51 »
Why are you so obsessed with aether theories and why are you posting them in the wrong forum. You've just posted a "new theory" in this forum and this is not the appropriate forum for new theories.

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #21 on: 15/05/2016 13:19:57 »
No computer, will explain in my reply tomorrow.
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### vacuum

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #22 on: 15/08/2016 18:51:11 »
Hi Mc Queen , hi all forum members. Probably You find something interesting developing the consequences of the complex solution of wave equation for electrical displacement in vacuum. This development is consistent with your statement of electron charge isn't the fundamental unit, however, is that corresponding to the charge of half cycle of the photon. That way You can deduce Planck's equation from Maxwell equations (photon's energy proportional to the frequency). You can calculate in purely theoretical form the ratio of the electron charge and the charge of a half cycle of the photon, simply by analyzing the creation of an electron - positron pair from the collision of two photons. Also in purely theoretical form, without using any empirical data, You can calculate the fine structure constant, which depends only on the ratio of both charges. Also You can calculate for each, the electron and positron, the ratio between potential energy and kinetic energy (magnetic) within the constitution of each particle. That ratio will allow You to explain why the electron is much more stable than the positron and generally, why matter is more stable than antimatter. You'll also get the spin of the photon and Einstein's equation of mass and energy. All that absolutely deduced from Maxwell's equations, ie, from classical electrodynamics, which appears in that form as the basis of quantum postulates, besides what all treaties show that classical electrodynamics is the basis of the relativistic postulates.

I do not know how similar is your idea of aether compared to the nature of the polarizable vacuum inherent in Maxwell's equations. Obviously, something polarizable has a different physical nature of an insensitive and inactive space. Still, it is a medium without a trace of matter. And probably, when there are no events in one region, no trace of electric charge within that region. A portion of vacuum may be neutral, negatively charged or positively charged. I don't know the underlying cause changes and manages a portion acquires or loses electric charge. The vacuum is able to create pairs of opposite charges when necessary, although those couples not previously exist. It is also capable of annihilating them and return to neutrality. If we could make a comparison between electricity and topology, probably neutrality, negative charge and positive charge would be comparable to three geometrically different, but topologically identical forms. The electrical "topology" of vacuum does not change when a region passes from neutrality to charge, or from charge to neutrality.

#### GoC

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #23 on: 03/09/2016 17:08:32 »
I am excited with the direction this thread is going. I might add some insights not being included so far.
1. Mass might not be removing ether particles (photons, dark mass energy) in dilation only increasing the distance between the particles.
2. Particles may already have energy spin to move the electrons removing the term charge associated with electrons and converting your understanding to flow.
3. If the ether c energy spin moved electrons in a grid pattern it would cause a cork screw motion in electrons.
4. Gravity would be mass attracted to a less dense energy state. The electron moves from inside the proton to free ether spin particles. Spin particles inside of the proton and neutrons but more dilated. The electron travels out towards less dilated energy and curves back to the most dilated position (the proton) and moves back into the proton pushing out another to do the same. Mass dilates space so mass is attracted to mass.

These issues might be to early for you in your stepwise progress. The particle (dark mass) and spin (dark energy) are just two aspects of the same thing. Trying to tie this to current models is impossible. Tying it to Relativity brings us out of postulates and into mechanics. Dark Mass Energy is quantum mechanics.

Once again I realize the leap is to great at this time. But I am excited with the progress

#### Alex Dullius Siqueira

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #24 on: 14/09/2016 01:39:56 »
AND if the speed of light is constant because it propagates through a medium, then a lot of the premises of special relativity and general relativity in particular will no longer hold true.  In the same way the holy grail of Quantum Mechanics , namely the principle of wave/particle duality will be out of the window.

The speed of light is always determined to be 'c' because the aether is relativistic. Meaning, the atomic clocks used to determine the speed of light tick at the rate they do due to the state of the aether in which they exist.

The wave of wave-particle duality is a wave in the aether. In a double slit experiment the particle always travels through a single slit, it is the associated wave in the aether which passes through both.

""due to the state of the aether in which they exist.""

yes...

#### Alex Dullius Siqueira

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##### Re: What if an aether existed ......?
« Reply #25 on: 14/09/2016 02:17:18 »
In space, we do see a sea of photons - it is variously called the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) or Sunlight, depending on its spectrum and source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background

Quote
The CMB is a cosmic background radiation

Quote

I am not referring to photons traveling at 'c'. I am referring to the sea of photons which fill 'empty' space analogous to the H2O molecules which fill the oceans.

It is the sea of photons filling 'empty' space which are displaced by the particles of matter the Earth consists of. It is the sea of photons displaced by the Earth pushing back and exerting pressure toward the Earth which is gravity.

Yes for most, but not as a sea of photons, but instead each "starsphere" as being a delimitation of density of a area, and the sea of photons a single photonic tissue that has a base density, that is changed and restabilished by masses, cause as you describle ("filling 'empty' space which are displaced by the particles").
Not as a sea of photons that need to be massless to be able to travel at C. But as C being directly related with the density of the photonic tissue, in this example inside heliosphere photonic density, determinated by suns mass and energy but occuring on and belonging to the tissue...

Something like a "whole photonic tissue", when in the presence of light, as you ates it sort of opens up to matter, so it does to light, light than not being "one photon" as real particle traveling trough the mediun, but light being as matter, as energy traveling between the mediun, C speed being constant where it is occuring....
The photon not as being a real particle that travels, but as something that is already everywhere as a whole, it does have density,this density determinates the speed of C on that area, and the speed of C determinates the acceleration, so C would always be constant, cause there is no photon traveling trough inside out a gass cloud loosing speed, only the constant speed in function of the mediun it is traveling between, reajusting itself to the density of the mediun on that specific area.
Most important as soon as C leaves the gas cloud are it was passing it instantaneously readquire the speed, cause there never was any loss or gain of speed, not even speed, the C is always constant, and the speed always proporsional to the density of the mediun it is traveling between, I use between because such as a planet, space indienty both light and matter as holes and pehaps rags on it's fabric, sompressing them, away from the point of origin in a straight line, planets are spheric and influenced by the sun's horizontal plate they have where to lock-on, light is different, like a gost it have no bounds, space will than keep compressing the light on a single dirrection when in vaccum...
This compression will be homogeneous and will give velocity to the light, as for the photon, not a real particle, but more a "temporary construction of space fabric tissue", that happens whenever energy/matter is presented...
Atest that a photon cease to exist is correct and worng at the same time, for the photon as "the" has never trully "existed" as the term sujests, it seems to be a pseudo particle to deal with energy...
What I mean is, that "the photon" at saturn, and "the photon" at Earth, are the same "photon", after and even before any light was presented on both location, but even as being one that has never trully traved at the speed of light, but intead opened up and compressed against the light traveling between, falling towards each part of the ray with the same compression provinient from its density, as space is compressing earth from all directions, from the moment the light leaves the source it, space, conserve that original speed, even of the density of the mediun change at some point due precense of energy/mass, the constant is still the same, as soon as the light moves to a less dense are aof the tissue it does not require to speed up, the density of the mediun is always compensating the constant...
As result, the speed of light will always be constantly different in function of the density of the mediun, space, that also will be aways constantly different...

#### GoC

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #26 on: 14/09/2016 13:53:03 »
the problem with any static Aether is that it was disproven by the MMX. In 3d a tissue representation is misleading. 3d has to be point oriented rather than fabric oriented. Spin of the points at c is the only explanation mechanically. For them to move electrons there has to be a rotation path. This leads to perpendicular offset (45 degrees) complimentary spins of the particles. This would spin electrons and keep them cycling by density dilation. Mass causes an increase in dilation (expansion). This expansion is related to Relativity (the gamma term). The areas which have the greatest expansion of energy (least dense energy state) has the greatest expansion because mass has no energy that is not given to it by the grid spin structure. Light is just a propagated wave on this structure. The expansion is the inverse square of the distance. The view of an object is the inverse square of the distance as a reduced view. The cause of relativity is the grid spin structure.

#### jerrygg38

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #27 on: 18/09/2016 15:14:56 »
The question of the Aether or no Aether requires us to understand what the gravitational field and the electromagnetic fields are made of.  The other question is what constitutes mass? Einstein’s special relativity and general relativity are excellent mathematical solutions which match experimental data. So they give true answers to measurements. But do they tell us what the gravitational field consists of? Do they tell us what the electromagnetic field consist of? What are the lowest quanta of charge in the universe? What are the lowest quanta of mass in the universe?  Thus we want to know that the fundamental construction of the universe consists of.
If we compress space-time from infinity toward zero radius, we get photons and particles that have mass and charge. Thus we compress the Aether and get the physical universe. If the Aether did not exist then we would not exist. It is obvious that the Aether is not a stationary entity. It is also obvious that there are huge numbers of negative and positive sub-particles which form the electromagnetic fields. It is also obvious that there are huge numbers of bipolar sub-particles which make up the gravitational field and the photonic waves.
We then live in a sea of plus, minus, and bipolar sub-particles. The energy levels are so small and their charges are so small that we cannot detect them. In addition small groups of them make up tiny masses and tiny photons. The tiny masses make up the dark matter in the universe and the tiny photons make up the dark energy in the universe.
The question is how do they work? And why does Einstein’s relativity provide us with the excellent describing function as to how they work? In any event we do not have a stationary Aether. We live in a universe that in many respects mirrors the general gas law except the photonic sub-particles are all traveling at the speed of light C. That validates Einstein’s work as the best fit describing function.

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #28 on: 14/01/2017 05:43:02 »
Quote
jerrygg88:
Einstein’s special relativity and general relativity are excellent mathematical solutions which match experimental data. So they give true answers to measurements. But do they tell us what the gravitational field consists of? Do they tell us what the electromagnetic field consist of? What are the lowest quanta of charge in the universe? What are the lowest quanta of mass in the universe?  Thus we want to know that the fundamental construction of the universe consists of.
At this point I have to ask about the latest experiments that have been conducted to prove that the speed of light in a vacuum is constant ? I don't mean this in the normal sense of  measuring the speed of light which indubitably is  299,792,458 metre per second but rather in the sense that the speed of light does not obey Galilean transformations. Today it is very easy to test this hypotheses. Have one beam of light, it could be a laser, follow a path 300 kms long and another beam of light follow a path 300m long and see if they meet up in exactly the middle of a tube that is 300m long at the end of their journey. Practically anyone can do this experiment. Has anyone done it ? What result did they come up with ? I would really like to know.
« Last Edit: 15/01/2017 01:46:08 by McQueen »
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### GoC

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #29 on: 15/01/2017 14:55:06 »
What would you use for simultaneity? Knowing simultaneity of relativity would complicate the timing issue.

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #30 on: 17/01/2017 07:36:44 »
Quote
GoC: What would you use for simultaneity? Knowing simultaneity of relativity would complicate the timing issue.
The sensible thing to do would be to test the hypotheses, which as I had stated is now-days not such a difficult thing to do, if the beams of light do not coincide,  and if the difference in the timing of their respective  arrival at the detector is within acceptable error, then the light is simply following Galilean transformations and there is no need to go into the question of simultaneity. If however, the beams of light do coincide then it really would be necessary to examine the question of simultaneity because it is such an unexpected result.

“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### GoC

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #31 on: 17/01/2017 14:55:17 »
Quote
GoC: What would you use for simultaneity? Knowing simultaneity of relativity would complicate the timing issue.
The sensible thing to do would be to test the hypotheses, which as I had stated is now-days not such a difficult thing to do, if the beams of light do not coincide,  and if the difference in the timing of their respective  arrival at the detector is within acceptable error, then the light is simply following Galilean transformations and there is no need to go into the question of simultaneity. If however, the beams of light do coincide then it really would be necessary to examine the question of simultaneity because it is such an unexpected result.

You are confusing meta data which is a relativistic view and the physical position which is Galilean transformation. When you understand relativity of simultaneity is not the actual position of real time everything becomes clearer. Unfortunately the modern interpretation is non Euclidean rather than understanding the observations properly.
Einstein said in one of his papers all views are equally valid. This is true because non are valid.

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #32 on: 18/01/2017 03:32:44 »
Quote
GoC: [/color]Y[/color]ou are confusing meta data which is a relativistic view and the physical position which is Galilean transformation. When you understand relativity of simultaneity is not the actual position of real time everything becomes clearer. Unfortunately the modern interpretation is non Euclidean rather than understanding the observations properly. [/color]Einstein said in one of his papers all views are equally valid. This is true because non are valid.
[/color]You are making a simple observation unnecessarily complicated and convoluted. All I am saying is that the theory that light does not obey Galilean transformations and that time dilation and length contraction exist can easily be proved or disproved by conducting a simple experiment as enumerated above. If the theory is contradicted it merely proves that time dilation and space curvature cannot be taken at face value. There would be no need then to enter into complicated scenarios as to how that result could have come about!
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### GoC

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #33 on: 18/01/2017 13:43:48 »
Quote
GoC: [/color]Y[/color]ou are confusing meta data which is a relativistic view and the physical position which is Galilean transformation. When you understand relativity of simultaneity is not the actual position of real time everything becomes clearer. Unfortunately the modern interpretation is non Euclidean rather than understanding the observations properly. [/color]Einstein said in one of his papers all views are equally valid. This is true because non are valid.
[/color]You are making a simple observation unnecessarily complicated and convoluted. All I am saying is that the theory that light does not obey Galilean transformations and that time dilation and length contraction exist can easily be proved or disproved by conducting a simple experiment as enumerated above. If the theory is contradicted it merely proves that time dilation and space curvature cannot be taken at face value. There would be no need then to enter into complicated scenarios as to how that result could have come about!

To understand relativity correctly it takes allot of thought. Only when you put in the thought will you understand its beauty. I can give you clues I used to understand dilation. For proof of dilation caused by gravity a galaxy has a lens where dilation of space it occupies has a visible threshold. If we understand space has a medium of energy (dark mass energy) there is a threshold of dilated energy that becomes less dilated. This is relativity of a curved space. The curve is 3d onion like and not just a 2d curve with a tenser. So yes it can be taken at face value. Your inability to see past that hurdle is you giving up on the reality of relativity. Mathematicians generally are not mechanically inclined so they can have a constant without a cause. The gamma factor is real and physical for mass GR. It is only visual in SR. Geometry of motion just using 7th grade geometry and light being independent of the source shows variation of reflection with variation of vector speed. What is truly amazing is the GR physical dilation is equivalent to the SR reflected view. The constant frame is c always in motion. Why it is in motion is a true quandary. But most likely another physical cause. As a realest everything has to be mechanical and not magic.

#### McQueen

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #34 on: 20/01/2017 10:27:34 »
Quote
GoC: To understand relativity correctly it takes allot of thought. Only when you put in the thought will you understand its beauty. I can give you clues I used to understand dilation. For proof of dilation caused by gravity a galaxy has a lens where dilation of space it occupies has a visible threshold. If we understand space has a medium of energy (dark mass energy) there is a threshold of dilated energy that becomes less dilated. This is relativity of a curved space. The curve is 3d onion like and not just a 2d curve with a tenser. So yes it can be taken at face value. Your inability to see past that hurdle is you giving up on the reality of relativity.
Fine, yes agreed, to understand QED or Maxwell's equations or even Huygens wave theory also requires a lot of thought and all are supremely beautiful spell binding theories. But that doesn't mean that they are right.  For the moment, let us just suppose that experimentally verifiable phenomena is preferable to phenomena established on purely theoretical or  with implausible experimental proof. From this point of view the speed of light being constant in a vacuum is much more acceptable if a medium is present than to give no explanation at all as to why the speed of light is constant.
“Sometimes a concept is baffling not because it is profound but because it’s wrong.”

#### GoC

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##### Re: What if an aether existed?
« Reply #35 on: 20/01/2017 14:47:32 »
The medium is the cause of the speed of light. It is also the cause of electron motion. This is true because the photon and electron are confounded in every frame. You are trying to remove relativity from the medium while the medium is the cause of relativity and motion itself. You are in the correct direction but on the wrong track.

The photon sea is spacetime, dark mass energy or an ether. Call it anything you like but fundamental energy is in the spacetime. There is no such thing as charge only flow caused by c. c spin flow energy is quantum mechanics. Electrons move as a half rotation between spinning particles at the speed of light. Vector speed is less than the speed of light due to the rotating angle. There is a grid pattern that allows motion the same in every direction. The grid is stationary the spin allows the results of the MMX. The Doppler is the stretching of the grid structure which propagates same as light, radio waves and all spectrum waves. Gravity is dilation of the grid structure caused by moving the electrons. The increased space of the electron movement causes the red shift in light produced when measured in a less dilated position in space. So the basis of quantum mechanics is spin energy of space which cause relativity. So yes relativity will be alive and well with little regard for our belief in its reality.