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  4. Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
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Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« on: 28/03/2017 23:48:11 »
Red shift of far galaxies are interpreted as doppler effect which means that they are receding from us. This should make their movements look slower than they are, including molecular vibration.           
Are there any research on this?                                       
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Offline Atomic-S

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #1 on: 29/03/2017 04:51:31 »
I believe you are correct. I know of no specific attempt, however, to research the phenomenon.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #2 on: 29/03/2017 06:32:05 »
I found a science news about a research on distribution of dark matter in faraway galaxies, which is different than the nearer galaxies. I think the slowing effect should be accounted for in mass calculation somewhere in the equation.
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #3 on: 29/03/2017 14:25:08 »
Galaxies evolve over time so not easy to get a consistent rotation vs speed profile.
There has been research on Type 1a supernovae which are more easily studied.
You might be interested in this http://homepages.rpi.edu/~newbeh/gersonaguiblava.pdf


So, yes by comparison you would expect that galaxies 'moving' away at significant proportion of light speeed willl appear slowed.

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Offline timey

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #4 on: 29/03/2017 16:49:32 »
How would you know what the velocity of the galaxy was initially if the velocity has been slowed by time dilation?
And if you cannot know the initial velocity then how can you calculate a percentage of the speed of light in order to ascertain the time dilation effect?
Therefore, how can you calculated a time dilation effect that is caused by a velocity, if the time dilation effect slows the velocity.  That is a catch 22.
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Offline chris

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #5 on: 29/03/2017 20:06:33 »
Quote from: timey on 29/03/2017 16:49:32
How would you know what the velocity of the galaxy was initially if the velocity has been slowed by time dilation?
And if you cannot know the initial velocity then how can you calculate a percentage of the speed of light in order to ascertain the time dilation effect?
Therefore, how can you calculated a time dilation effect that is caused by a velocity, if the time dilation effect slows the velocity.  That is a catch 22.

Yes, it's a tricky one to answer...
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #6 on: 29/03/2017 23:57:12 »

Quote from: chris on 29/03/2017 20:06:33
Yes, it's a tricky one to answer...
The answer is to use the scientific method  :)



Quote from: timey on 29/03/2017 16:49:32
How would you know what the velocity of the galaxy was initially if the velocity has been slowed by time dilation?
And if you cannot know the initial velocity then how can you calculate a percentage of the speed of light in order to ascertain the time dilation effect?
Therefore, how can you calculated a time dilation effect that is caused by a velocity, if the time dilation effect slows the velocity.  That is a catch 22.
The paper is worth reading by anyone who intends to offer up an alternative theory. The paper is 13 pages of observations and detailed analysis of how those observations are interpreted by the authors, and this is for a very small area of interest. You may disagree with the conclusions but for any theory to become an accepted it will require the same amount of analysis and effort on each and every aspect of the theory. I don't envy you the task, but I'm sure you will understand that you need the formal presentation of a complete theory in order for it to be accepted.
Apologies to the OP, don't intend to divert this thread away from the original question.

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Offline timey

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #7 on: 30/03/2017 01:26:36 »
The paper - which I read - gives detailed analysis of the light curve of supernova.  There is nothing for me to disagree with in that paper.
Why do you think I disagree with it?
My model would also calculate a time dilation factor that slows the light in space.  My model wouldn't be using SR to calculate this slowing though.

The paper doesn't offer any explanation as to the motions of masses themselves, and doesn't offer any explanation as to the physical reason for the time dilation factor that can describe a light curve.

Clearly the velocity of light is a constant and therefore easily definable, where any slowing effects can be held relative to the constant speed, but my questions concerning the use of SR to calculate motions of masses slowed by velocity related time dilation are valid, and asking valid questions Colin is the scientific method...

I don't understand your response tbh.
Where my model is concerned, as I keep on saying, I need a mathematician to calculate it.  If what I am visualising as an architecture of cause and effect mechanics is mathematically sound - i.e. is an altered rendition of GR that doesn't require Dark Energy, or Dark Matter, and unifies the standard model with gravity - then I'm quite sure that the mathematician who has calculated such will be all too happy to help me write it up.

The OP was concerning the motions of masses in the galaxy spiral, therefore having read the paper you provided, my questions are also valid to the OP, because the paper you provide isn't discussing the motions of masses, but is discussing the time dilation factor of a curve of light travelling across space.
Where your comment:
Quote
So, yes by comparison you would expect that galaxies 'moving' away at significant proportion of light speeed willl appear slowed.
...is concerning 'mass' moving away at a significant proportion of the speed of light.
So - how can you know the initial proportion of light speed that the galaxy was moving at?
Because you will need to know that in order to know by how much that speed has been slowed by the 'moving away' motion.
And if the 'moving away' motion has been slowed, then the speed you calculated as a proportion of light speed is no longer the same proportion of light speed, so this will then affect the time dilation calculation, and you have a catch 22.
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Offline timey

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #8 on: 30/03/2017 02:37:06 »
Hamdani - my questioning the remit of SR aside, someone asked the same question as you are here:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/156611/the-doppler-shift-and-the-apparent-speed-of-galactic-rotation-with-distance
« Last Edit: 30/03/2017 02:39:36 by timey »
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #9 on: 30/03/2017 18:58:41 »

Quote from: timey on 30/03/2017 01:26:36
The paper - which I read - gives detailed analysis of the light curve of supernova.  There is nothing for me to disagree with in that paper.
If you agree with the way they have calculated the time shifts and linked them to the galaxy's, why do you raise the catch 22 issue?
I can't see any reason why a galaxy time dilation should be different from an SN if they both exhibit similar red shifts. If that's the case then I think Hamdani is right and you would expect the galaxies to rotate more slowly when observed from earth.
« Last Edit: 30/03/2017 19:20:47 by Colin2B »
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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #10 on: 30/03/2017 19:14:57 »
We can think of a spherical surface that encloses the whole galaxy. We can then think of this as an extended object. Within the sphere density considerations can be ignored as long as they don't displace the centre of gravity. Then the gravitational force at any point on the surface will be equivalent. We are treating the object like a point source. If we reduce the radius of the sphere then material that falls outside of the surface will all be acted on by an equivalent force, in all directions from the centre. Since the force at the outside is less than that nearer the centre then rotation should die off with increasing radial distance. Hence the need for more mass to account for the rotation profiles. Since more mass means more gravity then time dilation must increase.
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Offline Atomic-S

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Re: Do far away galaxies appear to rotate slower than they are?
« Reply #11 on: 01/04/2017 05:20:51 »
Quote
How would you know what the velocity of the galaxy was initially if the velocity has been slowed by time dilation?
We must distinguish between the velocity and the relative rate of a clock located in the galaxy. They are not the same thing. "Time dilation" refers to the latter.  Also, in addition to time dilation per se, there is an additional apparent retardation from the standpoint of a terrestrial observer because of simple Doppler shift.
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