[Bored chemist]

Now, can you explain how the tides arrive every 12 hrs 25 min?

[rmolnav]

Quote from: rmolnav on Today at 10:35:29
It annoys me.
The one who is not right is angry.

Not even in my wildest dreams could I have imagined somebody, let alone the OP of a "thenakedscientists" thread, were going to change my words, simulating it is a quote, therefore literally what I had said ...
Actual quote:

It SURPRISES me (much more now) this thread carries on. Two different phenomena are being discussed, and frequently mixed up due to that …

[Yusup Hizirov (OP)]

Quote from: rmolnav on Today at 10:35:29
It annoys me.
The one who is not right is angry.

Not even in my wildest dreams could I have imagined somebody, let alone the OP of a "thenakedscientists" thread, were going to change my words, simulating it is a quote, therefore literally what I had said ...
Actual quote:

It SURPRISES me (much more now) this thread carries on. Two different phenomena are being discussed, and frequently mixed up due to that …

It irritates me (much more now) this theme continues. Two different phenomena are discussed and often mixed because of this
---------------------------------------
I do not use these methods, and it will not help me.
This is a technical translation error, I apologize for this.

[Bored chemist]

OK, learn to use the quote function then...
can you explain how the tides arrive every 12 hrs 25 min?

[rmolnav]

Quote from: rmolnav on Yesterday at 10:35:29
It SURPRISES me (much more now) this thread carries on. Two different phenomena are being discussed, and frequently mixed up due to that …
It irritates me (much more now) this theme continues. Two different phenomena are discussed and often mixed because of this
---------------------------------------
I do not use these methods, and it will not help me.
This is a technical translation error, I apologize for this.

Again, I can´t understand your explanation, and you are changing my words again, particularly saying "irritates" instead of "SURPRISES" ...
Time ago I didn´t know how to use the function "quote", and I used to copy and paste paragraphs ... And even that way words can´t change !!
Sorry ... Now I have remember that perhaps you was the one who posted some links, even some paragraphs, in Russian or another similar language ...
If with some translation tool you are translating twice (in opposite senses), please kindly check that what you post as selected quote has not been altered by the application ...
In any case, it would be better not to use that double translation when are just quoting !!

 

[Yusup Hizirov (OP)]

Not even in my wildest dreams could I have imagined somebody, let alone the OP

And I thought so, and was surprised.

[opportunity]

That's pretty.

It's not a model, it's the Mediterranean.
Write the appropriate comment.
--------------------------------------------
The waters of the Mediterranean rotate counterclockwise, forming a huge hydromassage gyroscope, which, precessing, reflects tidal waves around the perimeter of the Mediterranean Sea.
But in Gabes Bay, off the coast of Tunisia, the height of the tides reaches three meters, and sometimes more, and this is considered one of the secrets of nature. But at the same time in the Gulf of Gabes the vortex water turns, precessing the reflecting additional tidal wave.

https:/.../en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Gabès
https: /.../ youtu.be/FDht0vDmqdc
https: /.../ youtu.be/wlvkrRdYNZ0

It's pretty whether it's a model or not.

Now, can you explain how the tides arrive every 12 hrs 25 min?

When the moon hangs over the Atlantic Ocean, a tidal hump is often found somewhere in the Indian or Pacific Ocean, partly this inconsistency can be eliminated with the help of the applied clock, the tools for bringing the lunar theory of tides to real reality.

And, in accordance with the theory of tidal tides, the applied hour and the alternation of high and low tides occur for the following reason.
In the system of coordinates of the solar system, a whirlpool rotating with the Earth around the Earth's axis and in orbit from the sunset zone to the dawn zone overcomes a larger path per unit time than from the dawn to sunset,
At night, the velocity of the whirlpool in the Earth's orbit is 1600 km / h above the speed of the center of the Earth and up to 1600 km / h in the afternoon.
At night, the whirlpool moves toward the orbital motion of the Earth and in the second half of the day against the orbital motion of the Earth.
The reason for this is the rotation of the Earth and the radius of the Earth.
Above, it is easy to verify based on experience with the globe.
As we see, according to the theory of whirlpools of tides, each maelstrom has its own tidal calendar.
"Moon theory of tides," the reason for the alternation of large and small tides (why the amplitude of the tides at night is greater than in the daytime) does not write anything.

Yusup, I think I understand the problem here.


The problem is one of "initial conditions", "initial causes", leading to effects; "cause and effect".

There is no doubt there is a gravitational effect betwen the moon and the earth. If the earth were a perfect sphere with a uniform body of water, there would be a "perfect" tidal demonstration would there not?

Yet the world is not a perfect sphere with 100% water coverage, hence there are other factors at play effecting tidal activity with the earth we have.

Correct me if I am wrong forum members, but Yusup is coming across as saying that "those other factors" endemic to the Earth's condition (land mass shapes and so on) are the "primary" reason for the shape of the tides we see.

"That" may be true though, its a matter of perspective. Sure, using a fine tooth comb, the fine tooth comb of tides is more related to the earth and its landscape as opposed to a perfect sphere surrounded by water effected by the tides, so on that count Yusup is correct.

[Colin2B]

Correct me if I am wrong forum members, but Yusup is coming across as saying that "those other factors" endemic to the Earth's condition (land mass shapes and so on) are the "primary" reason for the shape of the tides we see.

No, we are saying that the land mass shapes combined with effect of sun+moon gravity are responsible for the tides.
The OP denies that sun+moon are part of equation and believes that wind blown circulating currents precess with earth’s rotation to produce the tides.

His hypothesis gives incorrect results but he refuses to address this issue. There seems little value in pursuing this discussion any further until he addresses these problems.

[opportunity]

Correct me if I am wrong forum members, but Yusup is coming across as saying that "those other factors" endemic to the Earth's condition (land mass shapes and so on) are the "primary" reason for the shape of the tides we see.

No, we are saying that the land mass shapes combined with effect of sun+moon gravity are responsible for the tides.
The OP denies that sun+moon are part of equation and believes that wind blown circulating currents precess with earth’s rotation to produce the tides.

His hypothesis gives incorrect results but he refuses to address this issue. There seems little value in pursuing this discussion any further until he addresses these problems.

Hmmm. Ok.

I know how you've read the argument. Yusuf is an "Oceanographer". He knows his stuff. He's asking the question of tides with the aim of presenting "local" tidal sources, not basic earth-moon dynamic.

[Yusup Hizirov (OP)]

The waters of the Mediterranean rotate counterclockwise, forming a huge hydromassage gyroscope, which, precessing, reflects tidal waves around the perimeter of the Mediterranean Sea.
But in Gabes Bay, off the coast of Tunisia, the height of the tides reaches three meters, and sometimes more, and this is considered one of the secrets of nature. But at the same time in the Gulf of Gabes the vortex water turns, precessing the reflecting additional tidal wave.

https:/.../en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Gabès
https: /.../ youtu.be/FDht0vDmqdc
https: /.../ youtu.be/wlvkrRdYNZ0

Admit that you can not guess this mystery of nature.
Relying on the lunar theory of tides.

[Colin2B]

Admit that you can not guess this mystery of nature.

there is no need to guess, it's not a mystery unless you subscribe to your hypothesis, and no one but you thinks it is a secret of nature.

However, we will happily leave you to your misunderstandings.

[opportunity]

Yusuf has made it clear to me about the reality of the seasonal variation of tides owing to the seasonal axial shift of the planet.....that's not something earth-moon tide theory thinks about......if of course science can pick this up, as it should.

[rmolnav]

Yusuf is an "Oceanographer". He knows his stuff. He's asking the question of tides with the aim of presenting "local" tidal sources, not basic earth-moon dynamic.

Well, Dr. Bruce Parker, author of the more than 300 pages book linked below, spent most of his career in NOAA and much of his time working on tide related problems as a specialty even while tackling jobs with a much broader scope. Positions he held at NOAA included: Chief Scientist of the National Ocean Service; Director of the Coast Survey Development Laboratory; Director of the World Data Center for Oceanography; Principal Investigator for the NOAA Global Sea Level Program; and head of the U.S. national tides and currents program (in a earlier organizational form before it became CO-OPS).
Among his awards are the NOAA Bronze Medal, the Department of Commerce Silver and Gold Medals, and the Commodore Cooper Medal from the International Hydrographic Organization.
Dr. Parker is presently a Visiting Professor at the Center for Maritime Systems at the Stevens Institute of Technology.
 Dr. Parker has written many papers on tidal subjects, some of which are included in the References section of this book, as well as many tidal analysis programs, some still being used in some form in CO-OPS.
He also had the privilege of organizing the program for the International Conference On Tidal Hydrodynamics in 1988 and editing the book that resulted.
Dr. Parker received his Ph.D. in physical oceanography from The Johns Hopkins University, and prior to that an M.S. in physical oceanography from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and a B.S./B.A.in biology and physics from Brown University ...
AND HE DEFINES TIDES AS FOLLOWS:
"Tides are the periodic motion of the waters of the sea caused by the changing gravitational effects of the moon and the sun as they change position relative to the rotating Earth ... The tides in the oceans are actually very long waves hundreds or thousands of miles long. Although produced by astronomical forces, their behavior in the oceans and connected bays (and the size of the resulting water level oscillations) is determined by hydrodynamics, that is, by the physics of the water movement. To fully understand and predict the tides one must understand both its astronomical forcing and the hydrodynamics of the oceans, bays, and rivers."
And more specifically:
"At the center of the Earth there is a balance between gravitational attraction (trying to pull the Earth and moon together) and centrifugal force (trying to push the Earth and moon apart as they revolve around that common point).
At a location on the Earth’s surface closest to the moon, the gravitational attraction of the moon is greater than the centrifugal force of the Earth (moving around the center of the revolving Earth-moon system).
On the opposite side of the Earth, facing away from the moon, the centrifugal force is greater than the moon’s gravitational attraction. In a hypothetical ocean covering the whole Earth with no continents (see Figure 2. there will be two tidal bulges resulting from these imbalances of gravitational and centrifugal forces, one facing the moon (where the gravitational force is greater than the centrifugal force), and one facing away from the moon (where the centrifugal force is greater than the gravitational force).
Logically, he also analysis thoroughly local effects of tides all over the world ...
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/publications/Tidal_Analysis_and_Predictions.pdf

[Bored chemist]

I know how you've read the argument. Yusuf is an "Oceanographer". He knows his stuff.

That's not what I'm thinking.

Yusuf has made it clear to me about the reality of the seasonal variation of tides owing to the seasonal axial shift of the planet.

Have you heard of the conservation of angular momentum?
The axis of the planet Earth pretty much points at the pole star all year round.
I can't be sure about the planet you are on.

[Colin2B]

Yusuf has made it clear to me about the reality of the seasonal variation of tides owing to the seasonal axial shift of the planet.....that's not something earth-moon tide theory thinks about......if of course science can pick this up, as it should.

What makes you think ‘science’ has not picked this up?
You are right that the earth-moon theory does not explain this, but the reason is that (as we have said repeatedly in these threads) there is another player, the sun. The earth’s axial tilt does not change as it orbits the sun, but the sun’s declination does change and as well as affecting the seasons it also affects the tides during those season, but - and this is important - it is due to gravitational forces not some mythical whirlpool/precession idea as is stated by the OP.

I know how you've read the argument. Yusuf is an "Oceanographer". He knows his stuff.

I agree with @Bored chemist  - folie à deux

[opportunity]

Yusuf has made it clear to me about the reality of the seasonal variation of tides owing to the seasonal axial shift of the planet.....that's not something earth-moon tide theory thinks about......if of course science can pick this up, as it should.

What makes you think ‘science’ has not picked this up?
You are right that the earth-moon theory does not explain this, but the reason is that (as we have said repeatedly in these threads) there is another player, the sun. The earth’s axial tilt does not change as it orbits the sun, but the sun’s declination does change and as well as affecting the seasons it also affects the tides during those season, but - and this is important - it is due to gravitational forces not some mythical whirlpool/precession idea as is stated by the OP.

I know how you've read the argument. Yusuf is an "Oceanographer". He knows his stuff.

I agree with @Bored chemist  - folie à deux

Wo, give me time to respond to this, it deserves pointed criticism.

[Colin2B]

Wo, give me time to respond to this, it deserves pointed criticism.

before you do, you might take the trouble to find out exactly what science does take into account when calculating tides - it's obvious it will surprise you, the list is a long one.

If Yusuf had produced ideas which accurately predict tides everyone would be interested in his ideas, but they don't. They predict an amplitude in square meters/second and a periodicity of less than 24hrs. Add to this his misunderstanding of the difference in behaviour of a rigid gyroscope and a liquid one, and his confusion of waves and currents, and we would be interested to see your defence of his model.

I have no doubt as to Yusuf's intelligence and his hard work and dedication to his model, but it has to align with reality.

[Yusup Hizirov (OP)]

If Yusuf had produced ideas which accurately predict tides everyone would be interested in his ideas, but they don't.

This is for the following reason.
1. Due to my inexperience, because I did not work in scientific organizations (I'm a farmer).
2. In scientific organizations, there are very few enthusiasts and patriots of science and many are capable, only to solve crossword puzzles.

[guest39538]

If Yusuf had produced ideas which accurately predict tides everyone would be interested in his ideas, but they don't.

This is for the following reason.
1. Due to my inexperience, because I did not work in scientific organizations (I'm a farmer).
2. In scientific organizations, there are very few enthusiasts and patriots of science and many are capable, only to solve crossword puzzles.

OUCH!  That one must really ''bite'' the scientist readers, hard to argue that , I may look you up Yusup to see what you got!

 

[Yusup Hizirov (OP)]

but it has to align with reality.

If you do not recognize the theory of tides then you have to disprove the theory of dead zones, and this is not possible to do, it is too simple and understandable.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=74483.0