[ATMD]

"If I left a kid in a room full of boxes of matches, would it be reasonable for me to say the ensuing fire wasn't my fault?"
yes, absolutely!

since the almighty in his infinite wisdom, gave us free will; the fault lies in the kid's misuse of matches.
this might also be one of god's mysterious ways of culling the human species of stupid offspring; so as not to pass along bad genes.

(however, hopefully you would have insurance, since god has something of a clause in the contract he wrote; that does not permit lawsuits against a diety. you may be permited to screem an objection into the night of "why, why, WHY??, however it appears such appeals are not heard by the court of the highest standing.)

I am not sure about the comparison with the kid with matches. To claim ignorance of what is morally good and what is morally bad would by lying to ourselves.

I can't make decisions to commit evil crimes against others and then claim innocence. Let us supposed we were that kid with the matches. Now if we light the match and burn down the place (for our own enjoyment), can we claim ignorance later on?

Or maybe we could blame God, "God made us do it!" lol

In the garden of Eden, God told us not to "eat the fruit", symbolic of "don't light the match" otherwise bad things would come. Did we listen? Sure, in the beginning. But when a clever guy comes along and told us that if lit those matches we could see some awesome fireworks...

[jimbobghost]

I believe in free will, but not the kind granted by any deity; but by the human spirit.

free will as regards decision making, in my opinion, results in a win/loss conclusion; good and evil are moral judgments.

[ATMD]

I believe in free will, but not the kind granted by any deity; but by the human spirit.

free will as regards decision making, in my opinion, results in a win/loss conclusion; good and evil are moral judgments.

Definitely.

[Bored chemist]

Let us supposed we were that kid with the matches. Now if we light the match and burn down the place (for our own enjoyment), can we claim ignorance later on?

The point of choosing children in the example is that they can not be held responsible for their actions; they know no better.

I can't make decisions to commit evil crimes against others and then claim innocence.

Nor would I.
However, it seems God does.
Mankind gets the blame for the obvious direct result of God's actions.

[ATMD]

Let us supposed we were that kid with the matches. Now if we light the match and burn down the place (for our own enjoyment), can we claim ignorance later on?

The point of choosing children in the example is that they can not be held responsible for their actions; they know no better.

I can't make decisions to commit evil crimes against others and then claim innocence.

Nor would I.
However, it seems God does.
Mankind gets the blame for the obvious direct result of God's actions.

Sorry Bored chemist, I thought the children represented humanity. In my opinion, humans are hardly innocent, we know what is good and what is evil.

I am not sure how mankind gets the blame for God's actions.

Let us suppose I decide to rob a bank, lets say I am greedy and the bank's security is poor, and I know an insider who would help me etc. The bankers would suffer a terrible loss because of my actions. They might even blame God for allowing evil to exist.

To say that God should not have created a world where evil exists would be to restrict my freedom to steal that bank. In such a world, I would also not be able to do minor things like lying, cheating on tests, insulting people, let alone major things like raping, murdering etc. In such a world, I would call God a dictator. I have no free will. One might think I should not have this free will to commit evil, but I disagree. I want freedom to do good as much as I want freedom to do evil. At the end of the day, I get personal happiness whenever I choose good over evil. To take away my freedom to do evil, I would never get to make this choice.

In our world where evil exists along with all its offspring ie. diseases, sicknesses, famine, death etc. At least I can truly do whatever I want. I have free will.

[Europan Ocean]

Christianity I suppose is a religion and spirituality. There have been false versions of Christianity. Inquisitors and witch hunters and slave drivers and types of colonists. But there have been breakthrough Christians, or real Christians like W Wilberforce. There are things we have from Bible messages about love, compassion, justice and mercy, honour, sanctity, zeal, esteem and friendship... that have made for good messages and actions. Some Christians opposed the end of slavery. Some wanted and want witch hunts. But despite false Christians true Christianity made a difference. RSPCA, free education, no legal slavery. No witch hunts, no killing of native people. RCC apologises for past actions, abuses have a stopping point, religious fights are stymied down ...

Could atheists or non religious have accomplished these things? Is the problem religion or human nature? The 20th century was secular but still had problems.

Religion gives a developed system of philosophy, education and benevolent ideals. Admits to error, values the conscience. Runs charities. Holds debates.

[guest39538]

Religion is a sickness ,  thou  shall not hurt  others etc,  just lies  , religious fallacy ,  makes hate  in my  eyes.

[alancalverd]

In other words, christians are morally no better or worse than anyone else, but better organised than most.

You still have the problem  that whilst a common belief in a deity can help to organise people who want to do good things, it also provides an excuse and motivation to do evil things.

An apology cannot  excuse or undo centuries of abuse committed in the Name of the Lord. The abusers will rot in Hell, along with any who seek to justify or diminish their actions retrospectively. And it is their fault for inventing Hell.

[guest39538]

In other words, christians are morally no better or worse than anyone else, but better organised than most.

You still have the problem  that whilst a common belief in a deity can help to organise people who want to do good things, it also provides an excuse and motivation to do evil things.

An apology cannot  excuse or undo centuries of abuse committed in the Name of the Lord. The abusers will rot in Hell, along with any who seek to justify or diminish their actions retrospectively. And it is their fault for inventing Hell.

Hell will arrive  on  earth  and  is  coming  very soon  , in fact  later on today .

[ATMD]

In other words, christians are morally no better or worse than anyone else, but better organised than most.

You still have the problem  that whilst a common belief in a deity can help to organise people who want to do good things, it also provides an excuse and motivation to do evil things.

An apology cannot  excuse or undo centuries of abuse committed in the Name of the Lord. The abusers will rot in Hell, along with any who seek to justify or diminish their actions retrospectively. And it is their fault for inventing Hell.

I agree. Morality based on love, compassion, and other "good" motivations should be the guidance for action.

[Europan Ocean]

Religion is a sickness ,  thou  shall not hurt  others etc,  just lies  , religious fallacy ,  makes hate  in my  eyes.

Jesus does want us to be free from hurt... but what people do is up to them, one can only persuade them. What can anyone do if the source book for benevolence is ignored and quoted by hypocrites? Some genuine adherents and some proper lectures are hated. What can anyone do?

[Europan Ocean]

In other words, christians are morally no better or worse than anyone else, but better organised than most.

You still have the problem  that whilst a common belief in a deity can help to organise people who want to do good things, it also provides an excuse and motivation to do evil things.

An apology cannot  excuse or undo centuries of abuse committed in the Name of the Lord. The abusers will rot in Hell, along with any who seek to justify or diminish their actions retrospectively. And it is their fault for inventing Hell.

Often, they are our ancestors. I am grateful I can repent from agreeing with them and disagree. I like having a turn by conscience. And ancient atheism and paganism , I doubt could manage to bring moral ideals and the enlightenment. They would have only progressed with technology.

[jeffreyH]

Can god get out of a black hole? If god is everywhere then bits of the deity reside inside black holes. If not then one part of god cannot communicate with another part of god. This means that god cannot be all knowing. So god isn't that good after all. If god can get information out of a black hole then we should be able to detect that. Any takers?

[jimbobghost]

"An apology cannot  excuse or undo centuries of abuse committed in the Name of the Lord. The abusers will rot in Hell, along with any who seek to justify or diminish their actions retrospectively. And it is their fault for inventing Hell."

Alan,

as a confirmed atheist, i claim immunity from any and all atrocities committed by any and all religions.

furthermore, since i believe "hell" to be the construct of those religions as a means of mind control (and in fact does not even exist); and so i have no fear of punishment in the fires of everlasting suffering.

i live my life in accordance to my own concept of good and evil, right and wrong, and the pain i endure when i violate my own rules...which i must face each day.

[ATMD]

as a confirmed atheist, i claim immunity from any and all atrocities committed by any and all religions.

Don't worry Jimbobghost, you are all set

I believe in karma, so I believe even a devout Christian or a Muslim is immune from any and all atrocities committed by any and all religions. They didn't do it, some people in the past did.

[jimbobghost]

as I have stated, I do not believe in Karma.

I just feel it unfair that it follows me wherever I go.

[ATMD]

as I have stated, I do not believe in Karma.

I just feel it unfair that it follows me wherever I go.

lol

I believe karma is very fair. I reap what I sow. A farmer who grows corn does not reap potatoes, that would be unfair.

I think the world would be unfair if there was no karma. However this is not the reason why I believe in karma, I believe because it follows me wherever I go too

[Europan Ocean]

In former times evil deeds took place, but some people even then were genuine, some were real biblical Christians who resisted. I wish they were my ancestors. Maybe some where. But I am not to blame for my ancestors wrong doing like you aren't either.

It is logical to think that we can be clean hearts so that when we die our consciousness goes on to clean paradise. Unclean to the company of the unclean. There is reason to think consciousness persist after brain death.

[jimbobghost]

"There is reason to think consciousness persist after brain death."

i like to think i have an open mind. please post the reason.

after my doctor pronounced my wife to be dead, and asked the resident nurse to mark the time, everyone in attendance left our bedroom, and we were alone.

i went to her, kissed her on the lips, and said "goodbye sweetheart, i love you".

i would like to think she heard me.

[Europan Ocean]

"There is reason to think consciousness persist after brain death."

i like to think i have an open mind. please post the reason.

after my doctor pronounced my wife to be dead, and asked the resident nurse to mark the time, everyone in attendance left our bedroom, and we were alone.

i went to her, kissed her on the lips, and said "goodbye sweetheart, i love you".

i would like to think she heard me.

To begin with and for scientists, Doctors have the highest matriculation, and the most relevant studies for more years in university than most. Not just ecologists or DNA experts, or cosmologists who are popular but not best qualified. So I think of the UK's Dr Peter Fenwick. People ridicule these things as believing in ghosts, but that isn't fair. Period costume scary images.

People who nearly die and are resuscitated have seen events they physically could not have have. Some are Doctors. Some are the Doctors who resuscitate. Or the patient has been cooled to 12 degrees Celsius for brain surgery. All the blood removed, eyes taped shut, clickers in the ears... but they see the whole operation and recount it accurately. Christians and atheists have them. Children meet grandparents they recognize later in photos of the deceased. Near death experiencers recount unexplainable consciousness and remarkable observations.