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The only way to get energy out of a gravitational field is by converting gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy. This, in turn, can only be done by lowering a mass into the gravitational field. You, however, are taking a mass and pushing it out and far away from the black hole (in the form of jets). That doesn't give you energy, it requires it instead. So gravity is not a source of energy you can use for this.
Magnetism can indeed transfer energy (electric motors use this principle all the time), but that energy doesn't come from nowhere.
The source of that magnetic field must lose energy in the process.If the source of the field is the accretion disk, then the disk must lose energy.
Our pair production rate simulations are based on a GRMHD time-dependent model of a magnetized disk around a spinning black hole.
If the source of the field is the black hole (in your hypothetical case), then the black hole must lose energy (likely by slowing down its spin).
So you still have a system that loses energy and mass over time.
Those particles increase the total mass of the SMBH and therefore, there is increasing in the magnetic fields.Hence, this increasing in the magnetic field overcomes the energy lost due to the creation activity of new atoms and molecular in the accretion disc and due to the requested energy that drifts them all outwards into that jet outflow.
Both - the accretion disc and the SMBH get new particles.
Some of the new created particles must fall into the SMBH from the Event Horizon or close to it.
QuoteSome of the new created particles must fall into the SMBH from the Event Horizon or close to it.I thought you said that nothing can fall into the black hole because the magnetic field won't let it?
That violates the first law of thermodynamics. You can't get more energy out than you put in."New particles" does not equal "new mass/energy". The total mass/energy of the system cannot increase over time without violating the first law of thermodynamics.
No, there is no violation of the first law of thermodynamics.
Remember the famous formula by EinsteinE = M c^2In Atomic bomb the mass is converted into pure energy without any violation of the first law of thermodynamics.
Therefore, Energy can be transformed into mass as mass can be transformed into Energy.
Let's say that the magnetic field transfers 1.022 keV of mass-energy out of the black hole into order to form an electron-positron pair. The black hole must now weigh 1.022 keV less than it did before.
The combination of ultra high gravity of the SMBH + the mighty magnetic fields sets the creation of new particle/atom.
I say "almost" as our scientists consider that it is totally free.We have already discussed deeply about the impact on the gravity force in the long run.Let's look again on the Sun/Earth gravity system.If I recall it correctly, you assume that the gravity stays at the same amplitude over time (assuming that there is no reduction in the mass).So, you don't see any reduction in the gravity force while the sun holds the Earth in its orbital momentum by gravity.You have stated that the Earth is drifting outwards not due to gravity force reduction but due to tidal.So, you actually claim that the gravity is there for free for ever.I have stated that there must be a "friction" or reduction also in gravity over time.So, the Earth is drifting outwards over time as the gravity is reducing due to the orbital activity.
Why when it comes to pair production there is a reduction in the gravity force, while when it comes to any gravity system (as the orbital path of the Sun around the galaxy) there is no gravity force reduction?
I don't agree with that as there must be also a reduction in gravity over time (even if it is a very low reduction).
Our scientists assume that the Sun stays exactly at the same radius from its first moment.Therefore, they claim that the Sun orbits around the galaxy for the last 6 billion years exactly at the same radius.
In any case, if you assume that the sun is not losing gravity force due to its orbital momentum around the galaxy, than I can claim that a new created particle is also do not set any reduction in the gravity force of the SMBH (close to the Event Horizon).
I claim that the SMBH is losing much less than 1.022 keV in order to form an electron-positron pair as the activity of that creation is based on Gravity + Magnetic Energy.
As the Gravity comes almost for free,
than the total reduction in the Gravity + Magnetic Energy must be less than 1.022 keV/2
For this explanation let's assume that the total reduction in the Gravity +Magnetic Energy of the SMBH that is needed to create electron-positron pair is 1.022 keV/4.
This is a win win situation.
The total (black hole + particle pair) has the same mass as the original black hole before the formation of the pair.
When a particle pair forms, the mass that formed the pair was taken out of the black hole.
That is absolutely correct.Please look at the following article:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production"the created particles shall have opposite values of each other. For instance, if one particle has electric charge of +1 the other must have electric charge of −1, or if one particle has strangeness of +1 then another one must have strangeness of −1."So, we get the pair-production without any effect on the SMBH mass as the total mass of the Pair is zero. (One is positive while the other is negative.
That is totally incorrectAs I have proved the total mass of the pair is Zero, therefore, the pair production doesn't take any mass out of the black hole.
The SMBH is not losing any mass due to this production process.
I claim that as the SMBH is made out of negative polarity mass, the in falling negative particle must increase its mass, while the other positive particle is squirted outwards into the accretion disc.
The gravity effects of Negative mass are identical to a positive mass.
That's not how math works. Making a negative number more negative is a decrease, not an increase. Going from -10 to -20 is a decrease. So the black hole is still losing mass if it's eating negative-mass particles.
Quote from: Kryptid on 21/09/2019 07:00:26That's not how math works. Making a negative number more negative is a decrease, not an increase. Going from -10 to -20 is a decrease. So the black hole is still losing mass if it's eating negative-mass particles.Sorry, that is a fatal mistake-10-1 = -11So, as the SMBH is made out of negative polarity matter/mass, by adding a negative particle we do increase its total mass.
You didn't learn in 3rd grade that -11 is less than -10? Adding a negative number to any number (positive or negative) decreases the value.Also, other masses (both positive and negative) will accelerate away from negative mass and thus cannot form gravitationally bound objects like a planet or black hole. If you actually worked through the trivial equations of Newton's gravitational force and resulting acceleration (F=GMm/r˛ and F=ma, or a=GM/r˛), this would be apparent.
Why you don't agree with that?
Let's look at the following:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_mass"In theoretical physics, negative mass is matter whose mass is of opposite sign to the mass of normal matter, e.g. −1 kg."In our case, we do not discuss on a Negative mass.We actually discuss on a negative charged mass.Let's look on a pair particles (Positron/Electron)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron"The positron or antielectron is the antiparticle or the antimatter counterpart of the electron. The positron has an electric charge of +1 e, a spin of 1/2 (same as electron), and has the same mass as an electron. "So, the mass of the Positron is equal to the mass of the electron.We don't have a negative mass, but we have a negative charged mass.Therefore, the mass is there even for electron.In gravity, we do not count the polarity of the mass charged.We only monitor the total mass.So, the total mass of one billion positrons is equal to the total mass of one billion electrons.It is a mistake to assume that the mass of electron is –M Kg while the mass of the positron is +M kg.Both have a positive mass, while their charged polarity is different.So, the total mass of an object with only one billion electrons will be M, while the total mass with one billion electrons will also be M.Again, both will be represented by real positive mass (and not negative mass).Therefore, the gravity force of an object which is fully made with positrons should be identical to an object which is full made with the same numbers of electrons.
The gravity effects of Negative mass are identical to a positive mass.Therefore, while the SMBH increases its negative mass, the accretion disc gets for free the positive particle.
If you propose that a black hole can become heavier by eating some of the mass that was taken out of it, you are absolutely are proposing such a violation. Let's say that the magnetic field transfers 1.022 keV of mass-energy out of the black hole into order to form an electron-positron pair. The black hole must now weigh 1.022 keV less than it did before. Now, one of those particles (0.511 keV) is thrown either into the accretion disk or into the jet, while the other 0.511 keV particle falls back into the black hole. The black hole lost 1.022 keV by forming the particle pair and only got 0.511 keV back by eating one member of the pair. That's still a net loss of 0.511 keV. Elementary school arithmetic demands that the black hole has lost mass, not gained it.
Now you are contradicting yourself, because you explicitly said:QuoteThe gravity effects of Negative mass are identical to a positive mass.Therefore, while the SMBH increases its negative mass, the accretion disc gets for free the positive particle.
My intention was negative charged mass.In any case, from the SMBH point of view, those new created particles has an opposite charged and therefore, they do not have any effect on its mass at the moment of their creation.Actually if one second later on they will meet with each other, they will eliminate each other:"When a positron collides with an electron, annihilation occurs."So, the creation of the pair-production does not change the total mass of the SMBH as the annihilation does not change its mass.
In any case, from the SMBH point of view, those new created particles has an opposite charged and therefore, they do not have any effect on its mass at the moment of their creation.
Actually if one second later on they will meet with each other, they will eliminate each other:"When a positron collides with an electron, annihilation occurs."So, the creation of the pair-production does not change the total mass of the SMBH as the annihilation does not change its mass.
If the needed mass-energy to create the electron-positron pair didn't come from the black hole, then where did it come from? It has to come from somewhere. Whatever that source of mass-energy may be, the source must lose mass-energy in the process of creating that particle pair because that particle pair has a positive net mass-energy. That mass-energy cannot come from the gravitational or magnetic field themselves, as fields can only transform or transfer mass-energy, not create it.
Based on what data do you set this assumption?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiationIn the following article it is stated:"Physical insight into the process may be gained by imagining that particle–antiparticle radiation is emitted from just beyond the event horizon. This radiation does not come directly from the black hole itself, but rather is a result of virtual particles being "boosted" by the black hole's gravitation into becoming real particles.""An alternative view of the process is that vacuum fluctuations cause a particle–antiparticle pair to appear close to the event horizon of a black hole."It is stated clearly that the particle–antiparticle radiation/creation does not come directly from the black hole itself.Therefore, the BH doesn't lose any mass during this creation process.In the article it is stated also:"As the particle–antiparticle pair was produced by the black hole's gravitational energy, the escape of one of the particles lowers the mass of the black hole"So, the creation itself has no effect on the BH mass. As the positive charged particle is ejected outwards, the Negative charged particle must fall in. Our scientists estimate that the BH is made out of positive charged mass; Therefore, this in falling Negative charged particle should reduce its total mass.So, again - the creation of the pair particles do not have any impact on the total mass of the BH.Therefore, how could it be that you both are so sure that the creation of the Pair- production must decrease the BH mass while in this article it is stated clearly that it does not come directly from the mass of the black hole itself?If you still believe that the creation of the pair-production must decrease the mass of the BH than please prove it by real article.
The particle pair created from the Hawking process does not come directly from the black hole, no, but the net result of the process is the removal of mass from the hole. Adding a negative mass particle (take careful note that I said negative mass and not negative charge, because charge is not what this is about) to a positive mass black hole must necessarily result in the reduction of the black hole's mass.
Where do you get the idea of negative mass and not negative charge???Did you read the article?It is stated clearly:"As the particle–antiparticle pair was produced by the black hole's gravitational energy"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiparticle"In particle physics, every type of particle has an associated antiparticle with the same mass but with opposite physical charges (such as electric charge). For example, the antiparticle of the electron is the antielectron (which is often referred to as positron). While the electron has a negative electric charge, the positron has a positive electric charge, "So it is stated clearly that the antimatter is a negative charged mass.
What is your source for negative mass?Why do you insist on this none realistic idea?