[Bored chemist]

https://www.coursera.org/huji

"The Hebrew University was founded in 1918 "
Come on...

The Hebrews had always maintained their language in Israel. Their own TANACH. The Jews mixed in Europe always had their own distinct from Trinitarian school of thought, theology and have their own contributions to archaeology.

So why post a link to a university that's younger than my granny?

[Bored chemist]

The Hebrews had always maintained their language in Israel. Their own TANACH.

It's a book.
So is Lord of the rings.

[Europan Ocean]

The people behind the Uni, in Jerusalem lived there since before Christ, with in mind, Roman expulsion and resettlement... Israel is ancient with it's own schools. Pre-Nicaea.

[Bored chemist]

It's still a book.

[Zer0]

The Hebrews had always maintained their language in Israel. Their own TANACH.

It's a book.
So is Lord of the rings.

ROFL!

Can't believe it is still going on & on...centuries have passed...may God help Science!

[Europan Ocean]

It's still a book.

The TANACH is non fiction. People lived by it, wrote it, fulfilled it... It has a consistency, such as a lead up to a Messiah figure, that the Jews don't accept. We have to agree to disagree, because the writings of the Bible are about a God, you don't believe exists but some other scientists do and a lot of other people, like Lawyers and accountants...

[Bored chemist]

It's still a book.

The TANACH is non fiction. People lived by it, wrote it, fulfilled it... It has a consistency, such as a lead up to a Messiah figure, that the Jews don't accept. We have to agree to disagree, because the writings of the Bible are about a God, you don't believe exists but some other scientists do and a lot of other people, like Lawyers and accountants...

It's still a book.

[Europan Ocean]

It is a book, theirs, the work of their ancestors, which whether you or not you believe it, is another school of thought that is separate from and predates the Catholic Church. For it not to be altered for different reasons. And now it can be tested against the dead sea scrolls.

[Bored chemist]

Do you realise that I don't care very much about the church- Catholic or otherwise.
So it doesn't matter to me that one old book is different from another old book.

Neither of them is evidence- for the same reason that the Lord of the rings is not evidence of hobbits and elves.

[Europan Ocean]

Do you realise that I don't care very much about the church- Catholic or otherwise.
So it doesn't matter to me that one old book is different from another old book.

Neither of them is evidence- for the same reason that the Lord of the rings is not evidence of hobbits and elves.

What about such things as dates in King David's life and works as compared with archaeology that matches. Say Kings and tablet records in surrounding lands sites?

And I thought you were saying the Catholic Church invented Moses?

[Bored chemist]

What I was saying is that religions make stuff up
In the case of the Catholic church we know who, where and when.
There is no reason to imagine the other religions are different

[CliveG]

Science can do quite a few things. Science is based on logic and observation. One observes and makes deductions which can have a great possibility of being true. An example was the Greeks logically deducing that atoms exist. It took a very long time for the proof but it did come.

The key observation that science should look at is that intelligence has evolved - mankind (generally true). To get to the point of such intelligence life had to do some things that are almost unimaginable. Cells had to signal each other and agree to cooperate. Cellular learning had to be encoded in the genes both in nuclear genes and mitochondrial genes. Replication and repair mechanisms had to be evolved. And the Earth had to go through stages that encouraged and promoted the evolution of intelligence. Dinosaurs had to be eliminated as the dominant species. Earth had to go through 10,000 years of ideal conditions so that the final emergence of mankind as fully functional intelligence could occur.

Science then asks questions. Is this an accident, or by design? One looks at the tendency inert molecules have to combine and align themselves with each other in cooperative arrangements. The carbon-oxygen-hydrogen-nitrogen combinations seem endless.

Study the channels on the cellular membrane, and even the membrane itself. They can open to allow on one ion species through at a time (millions per sec) based on tiny differentials or enzyme signals. They are proteins wound into folding coils. Just the folding of proteins that must take place with repeated accuracy is incredible.

Study the mechanism of sight. One photon of a particular wavelength causes a protein molecule to change size, press on another protein and start the chain of a nerve impulse.

The other question scientists do ask is "why did this happen"? What is the prime cause?

We know about the Big Bang but not where it came from. We do not know why there was more matter than anti-matter.

If one postulates that the Prime Cause is an intelligent entity then that explains the drive of evolution towards intelligence. The Prime Cause does not have to consist of anything and if it is vast enough it can create almost unlimited virtual reality of incredible complexity. Part of that incredible complexity could be both a God and a Satan each with vast but limited powers. As part of the rules they would have to remain unproven. Little miracles here and there that remain as anecdotes.

Another observation is that mankind is predisposed to mystical events, and that every now and then a prophet who changes the course of history arrives.

Skeptics scoff at the "story" but cannot offer a better one.

I was an atheist at 12 years, an agnostic at 17 years and now at 70 years I choose to believe (I have no faith) on the basis of personal experience. I have had few psychic experiences that cannot be explained by the usual "brain malfunction". Atheists presume that there is no God and every explanation goes "it cannot be true therefore we will chose a best-fit explanation". They then try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I personally find that nearly every religion has some truth in it. God gave all of us a piece of the puzzle. IMO.

[Bored chemist]

If one postulates that the Prime Cause is an intelligent entity then that explains the drive of evolution towards intelligence.

And, since almost all life is not on an evolutionary path to intelligence, we can reject the postulate.

[CliveG]

If one postulates that the Prime Cause is an intelligent entity then that explains the drive of evolution towards intelligence.

And, since almost all life is not on an evolutionary path to intelligence, we can reject the postulate.

First, your definition of "intelligence". And define "almost all". Quite the naysayer are you. Not "WE can reject" but "I [you] can reject". You are an opinion of one. You bring a blunderbuss to a debate of the highest order.

Mankind needed all the underlying life forms to reach peak intelligence. Even the trees that died off so long ago to provide coal and oil. And the trees that provided timber in various forms for sailing ships and shelter (or weapons of war), or fruit, or latex for rubber. Does a tree have basic intelligence to be able to assemble a collection of cells with all of them cooperating for the benefit of the whole? Finding water and light and then adjusting the behavior of cells to change?

Without the galaxies being formed, without planets being formed and without a Goldilocks planet with ideal terraforming, humankind could not have evolved. Need I mention the fine balance of the cosmic constants?

God provided clues for even the scientists to see and marvel at. Of course, there are those who will not see. The motor for the flagellum on certain bacteria. Humankind imitates life but this was a design well ahead of electric motors. All the parts must be there in order to operate. The intricacy is mind-boggling (for those who can appreciate just how intricate it is). That design must then be encoded in genes and the various cells must replicate and divide in a startling path in order to arrive at the end result.

And what is dark matter and dark energy but a figment of imagination in order to make the physical equations here on Earth work? Perhaps the Ultimate Creator Intelligence is messing with us knowing we will extinct ourselves before getting off this planet. Or not wanting us off the planet until we have evolved more spiritually?

Earlier I saw you said A) There are lupins B) There are no lupins and then said they cannot both be true. What about Schrodingers cat in the box? Apparently it can be either alive and dead at the same time. And what about electrons being in two places at the same time. Quantum logic can strange when used in everyday situations.

But the cause and effect rule still applies as one of the most basic rules. What is the Prime Cause? What is your opinion? And why you hold the belief that your opinion might be true?

[alancalverd]

You can apply the scientific method easily to the question.

Suggest one unique, predictive, testable property or function of your god. Then test it.

[Europan Ocean]

You can apply the scientific method easily to the question.

Suggest one unique, predictive, testable property or function of your god. Then test it.

I don't think God will give us a portion of his presence to test. Knowing and trusting are alternate to each other. Imagine a baby who will not trust dad, learn from dad, infer from dad unless it is proven under tests. Fast paced love and friendship cannot take place. You can't be filled with all knowledge if you do not trust the holy one when you recognize him. All the info is not trusted as well. All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.

You can have evidence in prophecy, and you can experience God's presence, drink it in, but that is after trusting usually. After an near death experience, many people return to life knowing there is an afterlife and spirit and soul and other entities like God, angels and demons. But they can't prove it to anyone else.

[Bored chemist]

What about Schrodingers cat in the box?

It's irrelevant.
I have observed the garden.

The motor for the flagellum on certain bacteria. ... the various cells must replicate and divide in a startling path in order to arrive at the end result.

Bacteria are single cells; The flagellum is part of, and produced by, each bacterium. It is not produced by cell division.

First, your definition of "intelligence".

If you think the word is badly defined, you shouldn't have used it.

And define "almost all".

OK, Most of the world's species are things like bacteria, plants, nematodes etc whose lifestyle is such that using resources on any sensible form of intelligence would be counter-productive.

It's not even clear that a brighter sheep would be more successful.
So, for there to be any advantage to intelligence you need a niche in life where brains are worth the expense of running them.
That's top level predators and a few oddities like chimps.

Not "WE can reject" but "I [you] can reject". You are an opinion of one. You bring a blunderbuss to a debate of the highest order.

The "we" who can reject your idea are the "we" who can understand basic evolutionary biology.
On a science web page that should be the great majority.


Let us know when you catch up.

[CliveG]

You can apply the scientific method easily to the question.

Suggest one unique, predictive, testable property or function of your god. Then test it.

I don't think God will give us a portion of his presence to test. Knowing and trusting are alternate to each other. Imagine a baby who will not trust dad, learn from dad, infer from dad unless it is proven under tests. Fast paced love and friendship cannot take place. You can't be filled with all knowledge if you do not trust the holy one when you recognize him. All the info is not trusted as well. All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.

You can have evidence in prophecy, and you can experience God's presence, drink it in, but that is after trusting usually. After an near death experience, many people return to life knowing there is an afterlife and spirit and soul and other entities like God, angels and demons. But they can't prove it to anyone else.

Well said.

What changed my mind WAS personal observation. Experiencing events that cannot be explained by physics.

On one occassion I knew with absolute certainty of a near future event and took precautions to avoid getting involved. A biker passed me and I knew he would die up ahead.  The shock of knowing was like the shock of realizing you have left a pot of oil on a hot stove. I slowed down so as to not ride over him after he died. It seems he had a heart attack and lay dead in the middle of the road a few kilometers ahead.

I "visited" my late wife in the after-life. No form and no gender. Heaven and hell are not two places. It is a continuum from very good to very bad. And it is a mental state. My late wife was in the very good part. I thought one could imagine a state with no fears, no pain, no hunger, no death, no taxes. It is impossible. One can only experience it.

I began living in a farm cottage which I realized had a bad spirit causing daily problems. For six weeks. When the Cape cobra slithered under my feet one night while I was listing the problems to my late wife in an email I got the message to act. A man had committed suicide outside the house and it was traumatic to his friends and the community. I communicated with his spirit and did as he wanted. To explain he had not realized what would happen and he wanted me to apologize. I did and things changed positively. I learned spirit is an intermediate form between soul and body. Spirit takes form and decays. Usually very quickly.

I could go on.

One communication (with confirmatory events following it) was that there will soon be a big reduction in population. God will not let humankind destroy the world he has made. "Soon" meaning in time to make a difference.

Sometimes the observations have to be done by people and not instruments. Anecdotal yes - but what else does humankind have when God will not allow direct proof of his/her existence.

What I hypothesized was applying logic to question of God and looking at the evidence of various religions - and the wonders humankind has discovered. We are sufficiently advanced to understand the concept of virtual reality. In programming there are classes and constructs which take form when used with parameters. Souls are like that.

I have had a chance to lucid dream and realized there is only one test to check if I was asleep and that was to will something impossible to happen. Pinching myself did not work. It is impossible to prove we are not in "virtual reality" in the mind of an Infinite Intelligence, and that God might be part of that virtual reality. As such, miracles are possible but it seem to be fairly rare, except for personal ones experienced by the faithful (and some others).

[Bored chemist]

I began living in a farm cottage which I realized had a bad spirit causing daily problems.

On a science site?
Really?

[hamdani yusuf]

All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.

Perhaps I'll ask about some unsolved problems in mathematics and get 1 million dollar of easy money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems