[CliveG]

Dumb Particles or Intelligent God. You know my vote (the latter of those two - for those with too many dumb particles to figure it out).

And again Clive,
Get a mirror.
It takes fewer "bright" particles to understand a fairy tale thana  physics book.

Give me your proof of how and why the emergent property of intelligence comes from particles (dumb or bright). My dumb particles do not seem to grasp how your bright particles find this so simple.

[CliveG]

The way in which the virus has spread is unusual. If a humans were to design a virus for global warfare then it has been amazingly effective. It has a silent sneaky transmission that is poorly understood. People without symptoms can spread it. It has first taken hold in key manufacturing centers in key countries. People cannot grasp how insidious it is.

It was not designed by humans but by Satan. He may be evil but he is not powerless and is not stupid. Do not underestimate the enemy.

The next phase of the war may be the infection in poor countries and the poor parts of richer countries. If it spread there first, it would have warned the rich countries and they would have prepared better.

Maybe BC is right in that a dumb virus can have the emergent property of "intelligence" when fighting to establish itself and destroy the world. I will go with Satan despite the scoffing that Satan is some kind of (bad) fairy.

[alancalverd]

I understand why unbelievers refuse to identify the kinds of specific evidentiary material they would accept.

Any. State the properties of your god, and the relevant physical evidence that uniquely derives from its existence. Your choice.

[Bored chemist]

Maybe BC is right in that a dumb virus can have the emergent property of "intelligence"

I never said that, did I.

[Bored chemist]

Results The mean ventilation rate was high whatever the technique used (24 bpm). A weak relationship between manual ventilation performance and the type of interface used was observed (p=0.0484). The overall rate of adequate ventilation was low even if we noticed a slight improvement when ventilating through an ETT (13.21% vs 7.5% of adequate ventilation). However, the rate of hyperventilation did not differ between mask and tube (79% vs 77%). A significant relationship is observed between professional category, the size of the hand squeezing the bag and manual ventilation performance (p<0.05).

You bolded the wrong bit.
Since, in this test, they didn't keep people breathing properly, it's not a test that can sensible be compared to the real world where they do keep people breathing properly.

[Bored chemist]

Give me your proof of how and why the emergent property of intelligence comes from particles (dumb or bright). My dumb particles do not seem to grasp how your bright particles find this so simple.

OK, to take the 2nd point first
Sorry, but I'm not responsible for your refusal to learn about evidence and science.
And the answer to the first is, for the third or fourth time is still Occam's razor.
There's no evidence of anywhere else for intelligence to come from.

BTW, please don't resort to begging the question again in reply to this. It makes you look childish.

[Bored chemist]

It was not designed by humans but by Satan. He may be evil but he is not powerless and is not stupid. Do not underestimate the enemy.

And God made him.
Don't misidentify your enemy.

[Bored chemist]

Yesterday late afternoon I had a "feeling". We are fighting on two fronts which may become three or more. The obvious front is the virus, the second front is the global economy. The third front may be civil unrest (rioting and looting as in Italy South), and the fourth front may be outright war.

Those are all obvious possible outcomes.

[Bored chemist]

The way in which the virus has spread is unusual.

No.
It's bog standard epidemiology.

[jeffreyH]

I understand why unbelievers refuse to identify the kinds of specific evidentiary material they would accept. It is easier to reject whatever evidence others present than to acknowledge upfront what has value. It is too bad. It is an old game and it is ineffective.

You haven't presented any evidence that supports your argument. You have presented evidence that you are gullible and the useful tool of sociopathic religious charlatans.

[duffyd]

The incredible complexity of the human body is more evidence of God. That fact of consciousness, the awareness of right and wrong, life itself all point to the handiwork of an Intelligent Source who lives behind the scenes. It isn't realistic to expect that the entire shooting match originated without the influence of God, who, by definition, always was and always will be. It is rational to believe Something, somewhere is responsible for all that is. It is common sense to assume God must be involved in this incredible thing we call life. Matter has never appeared out of nothingness in the entire span of time since the beginning of the physical universe except at the beginning. Since then, all that is and ever was, became what is now. If we produce steel, we remove iron from iron ore and mix it with other materials. We don't snap our fingers and create anything from nothing.

[duffyd]

I understand why unbelievers refuse to identify the kinds of specific evidentiary material they would accept. It is easier to reject whatever evidence others present than to acknowledge upfront what has value. It is too bad. It is an old game and it is ineffective.

You haven't presented any evidence that supports your argument. You have presented evidence that you are gullible and the useful tool of sociopathic religious charlatans.

Really?

[duffyd]

I have complete sympathy for those who don't believe. I was one of them for many years.
It is not as though He makes it difficult to find him. He's not hiding, not in the sense of a cruel, cunning tyrant who likes to humiliate us by dangling hope in front of us. If and when we get to the point where we must find him, and pursue that goal wholeheartedly, he will be found and he will surprise us with the wonder that he is. This is the creed, the clarion call from the angels and shepherds and wise men.

[RD]

The incredible complexity of the human body is more evidence of God...
... the handiwork of an Intelligent Source  ...

Nope ... https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#How_.22Irreducibly_complex.22_structures_form
& nope ... https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-most-unfortunate-design-flaws-in-the-human-body-1518242787

[Bored chemist]

I understand why unbelievers refuse to identify the kinds of specific evidentiary material they would accept. It is easier to reject whatever evidence others present than to acknowledge upfront what has value. It is too bad. It is an old game and it is ineffective.

You haven't presented any evidence that supports your argument. You have presented evidence that you are gullible and the useful tool of sociopathic religious charlatans.

Really?

Yes

[Bored chemist]

It is not as though He makes it difficult to find him.

I suggest you argue that point with CliveG who thinks God definitely hides whenever you actually do and experiment that looks for Him. When you agree amongst yourselves, come back and talk to us.
Certainly the experiments on proof of prayer didn't find Him.

[Bored chemist]

The incredible complexity of the human body is more evidence of God.

No.
It isn't.
There is a perfectly plausible mechanism to get this complexity without needing to invoke a God.
Even if there weren't you still haven't actually moved things forward because , however complex a human might be, a God is necessarily more complex.

If you don't want to think that complicated things "just happen", then you can't say that an even more complicated God "just happened".
Your argument contradicts itself.

[alancalverd]

The incredible complexity of the human body is more evidence of God.

It is entirely credible (I see it every day) and no more complex than any other ape. If anything, wheat, with a much longer genome, is more complex. As, for that matter, is a gorilla with more chromosomes than homo sapiens. The human body is evidence for evolution.

 

That fact of consciousness,

Please define consciousness and explain why, whatever your definition, it is not a consequence of evolution.

It is rational to believe Something, somewhere is responsible

Not rational, but a consequence of human vanity and a childish intellect. In the real world, sh1t happens and you can't blame anyone or anything for it - you just have to clear up the mess.

We don't snap our fingers and create anything from nothing.

[ so why presume that any other entitity did so?

[duffyd]

IOW, often life itself will lead us to God. As Leonard Cohen wrote, "only drowning men can see him".

[duffyd]

The incredible complexity of the human body is more evidence of God.

No.
It isn't.
There is a perfectly plausible mechanism to get this complexity without needing to invoke a God.
Even if there weren't you still haven't actually moved things forward because , however complex a human might be, a God is necessarily more complex.

If you don't want to think that complicated things "just happen", then you can't say that an even more complicated God "just happened".
Your argument contradicts itself.

He never happened.