[Bored chemist]

s

please explain how and why YOU THINK the boat analogy is wrong.

How?
The only languages in which that explanation is possible are maths and physics.
And you have made it clear that you will not learn them.

It's not my fault that you choose to argue from a position of self imposed ignorance, is it?

So, rather than pointlessly shouting nonsense, why not go and study it?
Or are you just too lazy?

[evan_au]

lasers don't have a chance in hell in working

The only reason that your message appeared on my screen is that it passed over a laser beam from my local telephone exchange to a small box in the ground, just outside my neighbor's house.
It got to my local telephone exchange via another laser beam.
It got to me in Australia via a series of other laser beams.

Lasers work quite well, in many applications....
- Unlike the early days...

the laser is a solution looking for a problem

[Bored chemist]

It's probably why fusion reactors and lasers don't have a chance in hell in working

Both fusion reactors and lasers work quite well.

It's like saying that busses don't work.

[Kryptid]

As for the boat analogy it still stands that an object creating a wave behind it slows down, end of discussion!

Yes, an object creating a wave behind it would indeed slow it down. However, objects traveling at constant velocity don't create gravitational waves so there is nothing to slow it down. Please stop clinging to that straw-man.

Doesn't seem to get anything done.

For the same reason that flat-Earthers don't "seem to get anything done", it seems.

please explain how and why YOU THINK the boat analogy is wrong.

We already have: space isn't water and doesn't behave like water. Space doesn't exert a drag force like water does.

[trevorjohnson32 (OP)]

- As per Einstein's theory of relativity, all motion is relative; there is no absolute "stationary" frame of reference in the universe towards which an object could "slow down".

I may start floating around then. Anywho I just wanted to point out that if a comet going around the sun lost its momentum energy that takes place as it  'swings' around the sun then it would eventually get dragged into the sun and we don't see that happening.

[Kryptid]

For the most part, objects in orbit (or even a highly eccentric orbit like a comet), don't experience a loss of total energy as they orbit. The energy is changed back and forth between gravitational potential energy and kinetic energy. Tidal effects can cause a net transfer of energy between the orbiting objects, but it is usually very small (especially when the object has a very long orbital period). The energy lost due to gravitational radiation from a comet would be negligible.

[evan_au]

I just wanted to point out that if a comet going around the sun lost its momentum energy that takes place as it  'swings' around the sun then it would eventually get dragged into the sun and we don't see that happening.

Comets
We don't see the effects of gravitational radiation in comets around the Sun, because the radiation of energy due to gravitational waves is miniscule in the Sun's relatively weak gravitational field.
- The Earth is much more massive than a comet, and also fairly close to the Sun. But the energy radiated away by gravitational waves by the Earth-Sun system is estimated as something like 200 Watts - much less than a toaster.
- Gravitational radiation has no measurable impact on the kinetic energy of the Earth traveling around the Sun.

One characteristic of comets is that they have very eccentric orbits - long and thin.
- For example, the well-known Halley's Comet has an orbital eccentricity of 0.967
- Compared with 0.017 for the Earth
- with eccentricity of 0 being a perfect circle and 1 being a parabolic trajectory that doesn't come back

Neutron Stars
Now take a star with more mass than the Sun, and over 1 million km across.
- Compress it down to a neutron star, only 20km across.
- The gravitational attraction goes up by a factor of 4 if you halve the distance
- Reduce the distance by a factor of 50 thousand, and the strength increases by 2.5 billion
- The gravitational field near the surface is now far more intense, and you have a much better chance to observe gravitational wave effects

Now take two neutron stars on very elliptical orbits around their center of mass:
- For most of the orbit, when they are far apart, they radiate very little energy in the form of gravitational waves
- But when they are closest together (periastron), they radiate a short, more intense burst of gravitational waves
- The effect of this is to reduce the velocity when they are their closest
- Which reduces the distance they are able to draw apart on the next orbit
- If you wanted to make their periastron get even closer, you would take out kinetic energy when they are farthest apart. But gravitational wave radiation is lowest at this point, so the separation at periastron doesn't change much.
- So over time, the orbit becomes less eccentric, and gradually becomes more circular
- When the orbit is circular, the pair of black holes is now radiating gravitational waves more continually, at the same rate as it previously radiated in only short bursts
- This continuous radiation of gravitational waves causes the orbit to spiral inwards at an accelerating rate
- The Hulse-Taylor pulsar now has an eccentricity of 0.617, which is much more circular than a typical comet, but less circular than a typical planet.
- It is observed that the eccentricity is slowly reducing, by about 10^-11 per year
See: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/7974/hulse-taylor-binary-pulsar-how-is-cumulative-periastron-time-shift-calculate

PS: At the risk of being considered a pompous ass, I would point out that the point of closest approach in the Hulse-Taylor pulsar is changing angle at a rate of about 4° per year.
- This is a result of time dilation when they are deep within their mutual gravitational well
- This is as predicted by the equations of General Relativity.

[trevorjohnson32 (OP)]

But a rotating body is constantly accelerating and thus emits gravity waves.

If the acceleration turned into a wave, you would be messing with the visible nature of the Universe. When you break it down the movement of individual particles with individual gravity fields, whether they are stuffed in a black hole or riding in a comet, are whats going to create a gravity wave. A collision or explosion would again be the movement of individual particles and any wave they create would slow the matter down. Now your ignoring the visible truth that waves created by moving matter through a medium like a boat or airplane, don't need to be traveling in a circular path. Letting a gyroscope and three objects in space attract each other may effect the tilt of a gyrosopce but it's not going to pick up 'waves'.

By the way the gyroscope is the instrument to detect gravity, I don't know what business they have detecting them with telescopes at LIGO.

[Bored chemist]

you would be messing with the visible nature of the Universe.

No.
We can see the waves and their effects in much the same way that we see most of the universe- through some sort of instrument.

By the way the gyroscope is the instrument to detect gravity,

Bollocks.
This is what you use to measure gravity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimeter

And what you use to measure gravity waves is  something like LIGO that is built to measure the disturbances of space as the waves pass through.

Now your ignoring the visible truth that waves created by moving matter through a medium like a boat or airplane, don't need to be traveling in a circular path.

I'm ignoring the best temperature for growing dandelions too.
Because it is utterly irrelevant- just like your stuff about boats.

Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?

[trevorjohnson32 (OP)]

Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?

So is this a fight of gets the last words or what. You obviously aren't going to turn up any proof of what you're saying about when gravity are made, because you have none. Is it so impossible to derfine a wave? And gravity bends those waves because they have to pass through a density, just as refraction through a lense? but you want the world to be this unanwerable place with thoeries that are impossible to define because there base definition is a lie.You are a liar sir.

[Bored chemist]

So is this a fight of gets the last words or what. You obviously aren't going to turn up any proof of what you're saying about when gravity are made, because you have none.

The proof is real.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO
It's just that you keep ignoring it.

but you want the world to be this unanwerable place with thoeries that are impossible to define because there base definition is a lie.You are a liar sir.

No
That's silly.
I'm a scientist, so I want answers.
Some of them are a bit odd, but they are answers.
They are obtained by looking at the universe- sometimes in rather strange ways.

The definitions of the theory are out there if you want to google them.
But,because you have a personal policy of not learning physics and/ or maths you won't understand them.
It's not that anyone is lying; it's that you won't listen.

Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?

[trevorjohnson32 (OP)]

wow, can't teach an old dog tricks that actually work instead of nonsense I gues. The old addage don't believe everything you reade is all I'm leaving this with.

[Kryptid]

Now your ignoring the visible truth that waves created by moving matter through a medium like a boat or airplane, don't need to be traveling in a circular path.

You are doing yourself a disservice by hanging on tooth and nail to that strawman argument.

By the way the gyroscope is the instrument to detect gravity, I don't know what business they have detecting them with telescopes at LIGO.

First of all, gravity and gravitational waves are two different things (in the same sense that electromagnetic fields and electromagnetic waves are two different things). Secondly, LIGO is not a telescope in the normal sense of the word. It detects the contraction and expansion of space caused by gravitational waves passing through it by using lasers and mirrors. If you had done the actual research in advance, you'd have known that.

You obviously aren't going to turn up any proof of what you're saying about when gravity are made

Mass always has gravity. The fact that you aren't floating off into space right now should be proof enough. But gravitational waves aren't the same thing as gravity...

Is it so impossible to derfine a wave?

No, but it is apparently easy for you to confuse one kind of wave with another.

And gravity bends those waves because they have to pass through a density

How can something "pass through a density"?

but you want the world to be this unanwerable place with thoeries that are impossible to define because there base definition is a lie.You are a liar sir.

I see no evidence of Bored Chemist having lied.

wow, can't teach an old dog tricks that actually work instead of nonsense I gues.

Your ideas don't work, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Bored chemist]

Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 20:07:45
Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?

[trevorjohnson32 (OP)]

T

Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 20:07:45
Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?

The hot wind was blowing, but not at Bored chemist house, where he had mastered spinning in circles, which means no wind,
because it is the opposite of WHEN gravity waves are made, and as long as something is the opposite of another thing, there you will find Bored Chemist stating that he is right being opposite or something somehow, it doesn't matter, as he spins and spins to stop that hot air from flowing, and then it fills him to write his next response on the naked forum.

[trevorjohnson32 (OP)]

So he spun and he spun
in circles today
and made that
pesky wind go away
'Help Us!'
cried the birds in the trees
old man spin faster!
The wind has knocked down our tree!
So spinning in circles
he made his way outside
and just as he thought
the tree did abide
it stood back tall,
up straight! up right!
just as he and been pondering
all night
his new name was tornado
and a name given strong
because strength was a needed
for it won't be long
til the old man is needed
to stop the wind
from going bonk
on a tiny birdies head
just like his book said
Einstein and spinning
to stop the wind grinning
and so on

[trevorjohnson32 (OP)]

False analogy: space is not water and does not behave like water.

Soon came along
the old man's friend Kryptid
to join in the spinning
and keep all the birds safe
in there tree's where they be sleeping
what should we save today?
Said to the old man by Kryptid
as they spun in the living room
all smoopid and limpid
save those birds I guess
when the wind gets a wicked
So old man and Kryptid
spun there way out the door
but there was no wind
so they went to the store
spinning and knocking
things off the shelf
they got into a slapping fight
then fell asleep on themselves
The End

[trevorjohnson32 (OP)]

The hurricane

One day
while Bored chemist was spinning
the clouds grew a dark
and he thought
this where I be a winning
making that wind stop
from all my hard spinning
so he spun out the door
but the clouds where a blowing
'you can't stop me!'
he yelled at no one
'My spinning is fair,
and good, and better then all others
just like my theory I read
written by some other
so he stood in his yard
in his robe a spinning
when wouldn't you know it
along came some ballerina's
to join in the saving
NO! he yelled at them
'That's not how to spinning!'
do it correctly
like me
and punched one of the girls
for not learning
what he had read
about ballet and spinning
meanwhile the hurricane
was scarred to watch more
and said 'fine I'll stop a blowing,
as long as Bored chemist
stops a glowing
For he had put on a tutu
and was glowing and spinning
until he whapped his arm
and the tears began a flowing
right about this time
His friend Kryptid pulled up in the street
Spinning in his car
in his chair he made a neat
so it would spin as he was driving
to fix is broken thermostat
somehow the air from it... whatever
its all in their book
Einstein and spinning
to stop the wind
and win at winning

[Kryptid]

Stop spamming. If you cannot have a rational discussion, then you'd best just not participate.

[Bored chemist]

It seems his "creative writing" skills are no better than his grasp of science.