[talanum1 (OP)]

I mean the intrinsic mass of the quark particles.

In a proton mass is encoded as added points of space on a circle in a construction of two half-Riemann spheres and one half-Riemann anti-sphere, where an anti-sphere is a sphere made of left out points of space.

The gluons can be one dimensional and fit on the edges of the spheres. Hence the gluon fields don't need to be modeled as flux tubes.

[Dave Lev]

I mean the intrinsic mass of the quark particles.

In a proton mass is encoded as added points of space on a circle in a construction of two half-Riemann spheres and one half-Riemann anti-sphere, where an anti-sphere is a sphere made of left out points of space.

The gluons can be one dimensional and fit on the edges of the spheres. Hence the gluon fields don't need to be modeled as flux tubes.

The proton carries three quarks and gluons.
Each quark is actually a "cell" of EM energy.
The total mass of those three quarks is less than 1% of the proton mass.
Hence, the gluons contributes 99% of the proton mass.
However - take out the gluons from the proton and its mass would be Zero.

[talanum1 (OP)]

Mass of quarks is encoded as added and left out points of space on a circle in the half-Riemann-sphere that is the quark. Particles made of half-Riemann-spheres-half-anti-Riemann-spheres don't need dynamical considerations but can be described in static terms. That is except for their vibration. This way, the gluons may be one-dimensional and they need only grab space points and points around left-out space points.

[Kryptid]

However - take out the gluons from the proton and its mass would be Zero.

Well, without gluons, you wouldn't have a proton at all.

[puppypower]

Mass is equated to energy via the Einstein equation E=MC². However, there is a difference between mass and photon. Photons can travel the speed of light, but mass cannot travel that fast. This tells me that rest mass is at higher potential than rest photons.

In other words, the equivalency of mass and energy and the observation that mass has to be slower than photons, implies that rest mass contains more potential than rest photons. This allows  mass to use a lower velocities, and still get energy equivalence with photons moving the speed light. Photon need more velocity to satisfy energy conservation since they begin with the equivalent of less rest potential.

We could do an experiment to verify this. We start with a given amount of mass, convert it to its  energy equivalent of photons, and note that the photon have to move much faster to define the same energy. This implies rest photons contains less potential than rest mass. The extra velocity all the way to the speed of light is not needed by mass, but it is required of photons to makes up the lower rest energy of photons. This allows for equivalence.

Mass, therefore, contains extra potential, allowing mass based objects to not have to travel at the speed of light. This allowed inertial states to appear. A purely photon universe would remain in the speed of light reference, while mass gives us a capacitance needed for the variety of slower references. These contain the exact same potential energy; energy conservation as implied by Einstein's famous equation.

I would like to take this even further and infer that the variety of velocities of mass, all less than the speed of light, is what makes space-time and space-time references, possible. This can be inferred from Special Relativity.  Say we start with mass, As we go faster and the system energy increases, space-time follow suit and changes. Some orientations of Physics appear to have done this backwards; Wave Theory. They assume that space and time comes first; waves, and this creates mass. When in reality mass formation and energy conservation, made this all possible and enduring.

If we started the universe with photons, all we would initially have is a speed of light reference from the POV of any particle. When mass appears, the expansion would need to be connected, to the "slow down" from the speed of light reference, due to mass formation and energy conservation.  If you looked out a particle window, the universe would appear to expand relative to the universe that was seen at the speed of light; singularity.

Picture you are on a spaceship. As we approach the speed of light, the universe would appear contracted through our window. This would be a local reference illusion, caused by our velocity and space ship's mass dragging along local space and time for the ride. The entire universe is not doing this. If we slow down, the universe would now to expand. This would look, out our window, just like the BB in a microcosm, but it would be connected to the local impact of mass on our local reference.

The condensation of photons to mass just before the BB, could explain the inflation phase. What appears to be faster than light expansion, would actually be dependent on a high rate of mass condensation and the rapid appearance of expanding space-time; energy conservation.The speed of light is not really a factor in this particle reference illusion, since it is a rapid slow down from c due to the limits of mass velocity.
 

[Galileo1564]

@puppypower If you have your own theory, it's probably better etiquette to provide a link to your theory instead of interjecting it into someone else's.  Having said that, this is very interesting...

Picture you are on a spaceship. As we approach the speed of light, the universe would appear contracted through our window. This would be a local reference illusion, caused by our velocity and space ship's mass dragging along local space and time for the ride. The entire universe is not doing this. If we slow down, the universe would now to expand. This would look, out our window, just like the BB in a microcosm, but it would be connected to the local impact of mass on our local reference.

If how you describe the situation is correct, then it could be a possibility that what we see as an expansion of the universe is us continually slowing down. It's not as crazy as it first sounds. For example it might at first sound crazy that we are continually accelerating, but in GR at the surface of the planet we are doing exactly that.

[puppypower]

@puppypower If you have your own theory, it's probably better etiquette to provide a link to your theory instead of interjecting it into someone else's.  Having said that, this is very interesting...

I was not trying to highjack the discussion, but rather was approaching mass this other angle, as a way to help everyone test theories of mass, to make sure they are consistent with fundamental principles like the implications of E=MC2 and mass not being able to move at the speed of light.

The term I used, "slow down" of reference was my way of combining the effect of both GR and SR under one variable. What I envisioned was both GR and SR, although two different phenomena, both lead to changes in inertial references. For example, we can approach the speed of light reference with GR or SR. The final reference can also be a combination of both. A large mass object with significant velocity might appear more massive or it might appear faster, if try to separate the two connected affects of GR and SR and explain it with one or the other. I saw this problem so I combine the two variables, to determine the overall space-time reference, using more of a SR style nomenclature since it is easier to see and demonstrate. This has led to confusion in the past, but it is very useful once you get the hang of it.

Mass cannot travel at the speed of light, therefore mass particles, as you discussed in the opening of the topic, have to contain more potential energy than photon particles, to be consistent with the conservation of energy. Mass has more potential, since it can travel slower; inertial, than the speed of light and still have the energy equivalence of photons that travel at the speed of light.

If the universe began with energy; photons, that suddenly condenses into mass particles, since the mass has to go less than the speed of light, we will get a slow down of reference, by default. If you looked out a mass particle window, the universe would appear to suddenly expand, away from a singularity. It has no choice due to mass having to move slower.

This may seem counter intuitive, based on the traditions, but if you look at E=MC2, the equivalency of mass and energy combined with mass not able to travel at the speed of light, such a phase transition strongly suggests a slow down of reference, with inflation connected to time required to change the c=speed of light to i=inertial. This could happen in the blink of eye. The universal reference change would imply the perception of expansion.

Your point of the earth in motion causing the perception of universal expansion is also possible, however, the theory of relative reference, will not allow one to draw this conclusion. I have tried to show elsewhere that relative reference, is not valid,  since it can violate universal energy conservation, since differences in mass, for each relative reference, will cause each reference to see a different universal energy balance, since different masses will have different kinetic energy in a relative world.

Your approach was the nuts and bolts of mass particles, which will be needed to run some type of reference slow down experiment to bring it all together.

[Dave Lev]

Mass is equated to energy via the Einstein equation E=MC2. However, there is a difference between mass and photon. Photons can travel the speed of light, but mass cannot travel that fast. This tells me that rest mass is at higher potential than rest photons.

That is very interesting point of view.

We know that by he annihilation process of electron and positron we get a photon.
We also know that the total rest mass of Electron + positron = 1.02 MeV/c2, therefore, our scientists claim that the relavistic mass of the Photon is also 1.02 MeV/c2.
Theoretically, we could converte a photon back to Electron + positron. However, in order to do so, we must use high energetic Photon as Gamma rays.
Therefore, in our real universe there is no way to extract the Electron + positron from "normal" photon especially not without the impact of EM fields.
Hence, your following message is totally incorrect:

If the universe began with energy; photons, that suddenly condenses into mass particles, since the mass has to go less than the speed of light, we will get a slow down of reference, by default.

Due to the following:
1. Photons is all about EM. Therefore, without EM there are no photons. So the idea that somehow photons had been created by the BBT energy is just a fiction.
2. Even if the whole BBT energy was 100% EM energy, we won't get even one photon. We actually see it In a CERN facility.
Just consider the mighty EM that the CERN facility can generate. Unfortunately, not even one photon could be created over there.
Hence, there is no way to generate Photons or any mass or massless particles by pure energy even if that energy is 100% EM energy. Something is missing..
3. Even if there were photons in the early Universe, there is no way to convert those photons to real mass particle as Electron/Positron as I have already explained..

Therefore, the idea that somehow the BBT energy could generate photons and then "that suddenly condenses into mass particles" is just imagination.
It's better for you and for any scientist to look for better idea instead of that BBT imagination.

I claim that Mass particles could ONLY be created by ultra high gravity force and EM energy.
So, EM by itself is useless without gravity (as in CERN) and gravity without EM is also useless.
Hence, the only place in the Universe that can supply those two conditions is near the event horizon of a BH.
Therefore, only a BH/SMBH (that carries High EM) can generate real mass particles.
The basic idea of Hawking about the new created particles around a BH is correct. However, in our real universe both particles pair MUST carry positive mass and negative charged, while Hawking thought about positive and negative mass.
So, he was fully correct in his understanding that new pair particles are created around the BH but he made a severe mistake with the negative mass as there is no Negative mass in our Universe.
We clearly see the outcome at the accretion disc of our SMBH, where the new created mass particles orbit there at almost the speed of light.
Therefore, mass particles can move almost at the speed of light and still carry mass.
Once you understand this simple issue, you can understand how our universe really works!

[evan_au]

Just consider the mighty EM that the CERN facility can generate. Unfortunately, not even one photon could be created over there.

The LHC has 1232 bending magnets. Each one of them produces photons when they accelerate (bend) the path of protons.
- This is a major energy loss when the LHC is storing protons with constant energy.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron_radiation#Synchrotron_radiation_from_accelerators

When protons collide, many kinds of subatomic particles are generated, plus gamma rays.
- The LHC detectors have to identify all of these particles, and measure their energy
- Since one of the goals of the LHC is to discover previously-unknown particles, which are often detected by "missing energy" and/or "missing momentum"
- So the LHC does generate energetic photons (gamma rays), and carefully maps their direction and energy
See: https://home.cern/news/news/experiments/alice-through-gamma-ray-looking-glass

[Dave Lev]

The LHC has 1232 bending magnets. Each one of them produces photons when they accelerate (bend) the path of protons.
- This is a major energy loss when the LHC is storing protons with constant energy.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron_radiation#Synchrotron_radiation_from_accelerators

Thanks for this great article.
However, please be aware that the LHC is all about "particle collider".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is the world's largest and highest-energy particle collider and the largest machine in the world.[1][2] It was built by the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) between 1998 and 2008 in collaboration with over 10,000 scientists and hundreds of universities and laboratories, as well as more than 100 countries.[3] It lies in a tunnel 27 kilometres (17 mi) in circumference and as deep as 175 metres (574 ft) beneath the France–Switzerland border near Geneva."

So, it doesn't generate new particles pair (from virtual particles) but it is "type of a particle accelerator with two directed beams of particles"

Therefore, the accelerated particles are taken from existing matter as a proton:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron_radiation#Synchrotron_radiation_from_accelerators
In the Large Hadron Collider, proton bunches produce the radiation at increasing amplitude and frequency as they accelerate with respect to the vacuum field, propagating photoelectrons, which in turn propagate secondary electrons from the pipe walls with increasing frequency and density up to 7×1010. Each proton may lose 6.7 keV per turn due to this phenomenon.[8]
Therefore, the proton is losing energy in this process.

- So the LHC does generate energetic photons (gamma rays), and carefully maps their direction and energy
See: https://home.cern/news/news/experiments/alice-through-gamma-ray-looking-glass

The LHC doesn't generate new photons/particles pair out of nothing or out of virtual particles.
Therefore, I wouldn't use the statement as: "the LHC does generate energetic photons (gamma rays)" but I will say that the LHC extract energetic photons (gamma rays) from existing matter as proton.

Therefore, it proves that EM by itself can't generate any sort of new particles pair.

However, there is some interesting highlight in that article about the BH:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron_radiation#Synchrotron_radiation_from_accelerators
"In astrophysics, synchrotron emission occurs, for instance, due to ultra-relativistic motion of a source around a black hole."
So, it actually confirms my understanding that in the nature a BH can generate synchrotron emission.
Therefore, BH and especially SMBH have the ability to generate real new particles pairs due to their EM + Gravity force.

Why is it so difficult to our scientists to understand that all the particles/photons in the Milky Way SMBH accretion disc have been generated by the SMBH itself?

[Bored chemist]

So, it doesn't generate new particles

It does.

You have no idea what you are talking about and, as usual you are quoting chunks from wiki, then misunderstanding it.

[Bored chemist]

Each quark is actually a "cell" of EM energy.

No.
If you had said it was SNF energy you would be less wrong, but you don't actually have a clue about the science here.

[puppypower]

The LHC doesn't generate new photons/particles pair out of nothing or out of virtual particles.
Therefore, I wouldn't use the statement as: "the LHC does generate energetic photons (gamma rays)" but I will say that the LHC extract energetic photons (gamma rays) from existing matter as proton.

This is consistent with another connected theory I proposed, in another topic. The theory is that the speed of light reference is the ground state of the universe and that all the inertial references, made possible by mass and matter, are at higher potential.

I used to explain this as matter and anti-matter only appearing at highest photon potential but never ta low photon potential. But your observations make this much easier to explain and avoid the chicken or the egg paradox. If Protons and inertial reference were at higher potential, only matter would be able to generate photons that travel at †he speed of light.  Only higher potential can generate lower potential without violating energy conservation.

Mass cannot move at the speed of light. This natural limit and its capacitance in time, allows inertial references to appear and maintain stability,  in spite of the speed of light ground state being at lowest potential. The potential is lowered via the forces of nature, gravity and the expansion of the universe.

In accelerators, the speed of light ground state creates the paradox of trying to reach the speed of light ground state, with matter, by increasing its potential energy; Kinetic energy and EM force. One can never reach the ground state in this way since this adds potential. In reality, we need to go the other way toward lower potential; forces of nature. This natural path toward lower potential will bleed off photons from the matter of the colluder and protons to generate some ground state material. The blackhole is following the lead toward the ground state.

Photons are not exactly in the ground state at c, since although they move at c, they contain finite attributes in time and distance; frequency and wavelength. This variety would not be expected in a purely speed light reference.  Rather homogeneity should appear; infinite wavelength. Photons bridge the gap between stable inertial states due to mass and the very stable ground state, and provide a continuity between the two states.

The million dollar question is, if matter is at higher potential than the speed of light reference, where did the energy come from? It would be like a rock starting on the ground and suddenly reaching the stratusphere.

If you plug in the speed of light into the three equations for Special Relativity, this limit tells us that mass becomes discontinuous; cannot go there. This is observed. It then follows that time and space also become discontinuous; these cannot go there, since these finite attributes appear from mass. The answer is, the ground state has infinite entropy. The break down of space-time and mass allows for infinite states of information entropy.

Potential energy would come from reducing infinite entropy at c; come to a focus implicit of lower entropy. his creates enthalpy as mass and inertial reference, as well as the second law; must now return to c and infinite entropy.  The red shift is heading in the right direction.

[Bored chemist]

This is consistent with another connected theory I proposed, in another topic.

Well, since Dave's idea is wrong, that suggests that yours is too.

[Bored chemist]

The million dollar question is, if matter is at higher potential than the speed of light reference

The 2 cents question is "Will Puppypower ever tell us what this "speed of light reference" actually means"?

[Dave Lev]

This is consistent with another connected theory I proposed, in another topic.

Well, since Dave's idea is wrong, that suggests that yours is too.

Well, why do you offer the following imagination?

Quote from: Bored chemist on 03/03/2021 18:07:33
on a scale of "the size of a proton" - of the order of a femtometre (10^-15 M)- the effect would be  something like 10^36 times bigger.

so the total "mass" is:
10^36 x 1.02 MeV/c2 = about 10^36 MeV/c2
Now let's find how many Proton is needed for that mass:
10^36MeV/c2 / 938 MeV/c2 = about 10^33 protons.
So, based on your answer, in an empty space of a proton size, there could be a total 10^36 photons which represent a mass of 10^33 protons.
Is it real?
If so, please backup that understanding by real article.
If it is just an imagination, then why do you continue with those lies?
What do you gain with that? What is your real mission?

So, how long are you going to continue with those imaginations?

[Dave Lev]

Quote from: Dave Lev on Today at 09:47:34
The LHC doesn't generate new photons/particles pair out of nothing or out of virtual particles.
Therefore, I wouldn't use the statement as: "the LHC does generate energetic photons (gamma rays)" but I will say that the LHC extract energetic photons (gamma rays) from existing matter as proton.

This is consistent with another connected theory I proposed, in another topic.

Interesting.

The million dollar question is, if matter is at higher potential than the speed of light reference, where did the energy come from? It would be like a rock starting on the ground and suddenly reaching the stratusphere.

Well. every speed must be reference to something and I have simple answer to your question:
It is called Rocket Over Rocket, or Galaxy over galaxy.
Based on the BBT, all the matter in the Universe had been created at a single point.
Therefore, in order to bypass the limit of the speed of light our BBT scientists have invented a "brilliant" idea of space expansion.
However, in our real Universe the space is fixed and infinite forever and ever.
There is no way that our Universe had no space 13.8 BY ago.
Our scientists do not see any sort of expansion in space. All they see is expansion in galaxies.
So any scientist that claims for an observation of space expansion is just a liar.
Hence, it's the time to forget that BBT imagination.

So how it really works?
Let's assume that we can send a rocket at 0.1c in one direction.
That rocket will send another rocket at 0.1c at the same direction.
Therefore, the second rocket must move at 0.2c with reference to us.
If we continue with that process, the 10th rocket will move exactly at the speed of light with reference to us.
We can continue more and more so the 100 rocket should move at 10 times the speed of light.
The reshift tells us its real velocity.
A galaxy with redshift 1 moves away at the speed of light.
A galaxy with redshift 10 moves away at 10 times the speed of light.
Once you understand that issue, you understand why galaxies at the far end could move faster than the speed of light with reference to us.
However, due to Einstein relativity law we might see them even as they move at 12 times the speed of light.

Is it clear?

[Kryptid]

How long are you going to continue with those lies?

What is that math you presented supposed to represent?

We can continue more and more so the 100 rocket should move at 10 times the speed of light.

For all of the other readers out there, I want to point out that this technique will not allow you to exceed the speed of light. Accelerating from below the speed of light up to the speed of light would require infinite energy. Relativity forbids what Dave Lev is suggesting. However, I know from my exhaustive experiences with him in the past that it is practically impossible to get him to accept correction. So I'm just hoping that anyone else who reads this post is more willing to learn.

[puppypower]

The speed of light is the limit with respect to space-time. However, this limit does not apply beyond space-time. According to Special Relativity; SR, if you plug in the speed of light for v=velocity, mass, time and distance all become discontinuous.

Mass is the easiest to see. The argument used to explain why matter/mass objects can never travel the speed of light, implies that at V=C, SR says this will create infinite relativistic mass, which will need infinite energy, which is beyond a finite universe. The same is true for time and distance, where space-time become discontinuous at the speed of light reference.

 

For all of the other readers out there, I want to point out that this technique will not allow you to exceed the speed of light. Accelerating from below the speed of light up to the speed of light would require infinite energy. Relativity forbids what Dave Lev is suggesting.

Mass, below the speed of light, make finite or inertial reference possible, due to the capacitance of mass. Without mass there is no tangible substance, to sustain the other two inertial reference variables. Both GR and SR need tangible mass to manipulate reference variables. We cannot save time in a bottle nor can be weight out a KG of distance to show it has substance. However, we can measure mass with scales and meter sticks and save it in a bottle. Real; mass,  leads the two reference variables, or mass allows inertial references in space-time to appear and persist.

At the speed of light reference, the inertial based integration of space-time breaks down, since mass cannot carry space and time any longer. This allows one to move in time without the constraint of space, and move in space without the constraint of time. The two reference variables; time and distance, obey different laws at the speed of light, since there is no mass to place the limits we see in space-time.

As such, if one was in the speed of light reference you would not be under the limits of space-time, so the speed light would not be a limiting factor, since speed needs distance and time to integrate as d/t; derivative of space-time. This means rocket ships made of matter cannot go there, since they are at too high in potential, and have to remain in inertial reference due to mass.

At the speed of light reference, the inertial universe would appear as a point-instant, since time and space have reached their limits. Since the inertial universe would appear as a point in your speed of light reference, we can be anywhere in the inertial universe, simultaneously, since all points in space and time, overlap as a point-instant. By default  one becomes omnipresent and omniscience at the speed of light reference, relative to the point-instant inertial universe.

The c-reference allows for infinite entropy. Entropy is a state variable meaning for any given state there is a specific amount of measureable entropy. Without the limits of space-time, any state is now possible, even those once limited by the speed of light in inertial references. To form the inertial universe, from nothing, we would only need to lower entropy; come to a focal state of less entropy, and release its free energy into enthalpy; internal energy of sub particles.

As a loose analogy, consider the human imagination. We can pretend to grow wings and fly to the sun's core. This is not physically possible in space-time. However, the output of the imagination is not limited by these physical constraints. The impossible is possible, albeit, within the imagination. 

As an practical example, an architect can visualize a bridge over the river, that is not yet, there. He can travel into the future within his imagination and see it spanning the gorge. If the architect was working for a company, and they finished the review, and got all the permits and the funding, that entropic potential within his neurons, will set a series of events into motion that will release energy at the inertial job site. There are now physical and practical limits, imposed on his ideal blueprint, that make it less than ideal due to limits of space-time.

[Bored chemist]

Well, why do you offer the following imagination?

You do not know what "imagination" means.
More importantly, you have consistently shown that you don't understand any of the physics.

Well. every speed must be reference to something and I have simple answer to your question:
It is called Rocket Over Rocket, or Galaxy over galaxy.

And it does not work.