[CrazyScientist (OP)]

If you don't agree, you'll have to prove that thermal radiation is somehow completely different from other types of EM radiation and only because of that, this particular scenario (thermal radiation) will have a different outcome.

The different outcome arises from your decision to turn off the heater when it reaches 1000C.
That's why I asked about the case where that does not happen.
I guess you realise that, if the energy kept going in then you would eventually get a black hole , but don't want to admit it.
That would certainly explain your refusal to discuss it.

Ahh, so when a source of heat at the temperature of 1000°C will keep heating the inside of cavity, the temperature inside will eventually exceed the 1000°C and keep rising to hypothetical infinity? Strange, because 2 days ago you said yourself, that the medium CAN'T get hotter than the source of heat...

[CrazyScientist (OP)]

I think, I'm going to create a black hole today. I have a winter jacket, that is pretty good isolator and keep the warm inside, so I will take a liter of water in a sealed container and I will keep it under that jacket at a constant temperature of 60°C until it won't turn into a black hole... Cool, huh? According to Bored Chemist, it should be theoretically possible...

[Bored chemist]

Ahh, so when a source of heat at the temperature of 1000°C will keep heating the inside of cavity, the temperature inside will eventually exceed the 1000°C and keep rising to hypothetical infinity?

You are doing it again, I didn't say that, did I?
It is just tosh you made up as a strawman.

Now, stop posting dishonest gibberish, and answer this.

Quote from: Bored chemist on Yesterday at 22:31:50
And you still seem to ignore the fact that , if a mirror hits a photon, momentum is transferred to the mirror.
If the mirror was originally moving towards the photon, then the mirror will be slowed down by the momentum transfer.
If the mirror is slowed down then it loses energy.
And the conservation laws say that energy has to go somewhere.

The only possibility is that it goes into the photon, and raises its energy.

Where else?

[Bored chemist]

ool, huh? According to Bored Chemist, it should be theoretically possible...

Why do you keep telling lies like that?

[CrazyScientist (OP)]

Now, stop posting dishonest gibberish, and answer this.

Quote from: Bored chemist on Yesterday at 22:31:50
And you still seem to ignore the fact that , if a mirror hits a photon, momentum is transferred to the mirror.
If the mirror was originally moving towards the photon, then the mirror will be slowed down by the momentum transfer.
If the mirror is slowed down then it loses energy.
And the conservation laws say that energy has to go somewhere.

The only possibility is that it goes into the photon, and raises its energy.

Where else?

I guess, you slept during physics classes, when the Newton's laws of motion were discussed... If you wouldn't sleep, you would know, that to slow down an object, that moves at constant velocity, you need to use a force - so photons, which are slowing down the mirror are giving up their own energy... It's basic physics - aren't you ashamed to not know such things?

[CrazyScientist (OP)]

ool, huh? According to Bored Chemist, it should be theoretically possible...

Why do you keep telling lies like that?

because this is what you said:

I guess you realise that, if the energy kept going in then you would eventually get a black hole

And in case of thermal radiation, energy is expressed as the heat - so, increasing energy means increasing temperature - don't you agree? If not, then what kind of energy will keep growing inside the cavity due to constant thermal radiation?

[Bored chemist]

I guess, you slept during physics classes, when the Newton's laws of motion were discussed... If you wouldn't sleep, you would know, that to slow down an object, that moves at constant velocity, you need to use a force - so photons, which are slowing down the mirror are giving up their own energy... It's basic physics - aren't you ashamed to not know such things?

Are you  deliberately missing the point?

so photons, which are slowing down the mirror are giving up their own energy

In the same not real way in which an engine uses its energy to slow a car down, and the brakes speed it up by taking energy from it and converting it to heat.
You really are being absurd here.

because this is what you said:

Yes.
And this is not what I said.

have a winter jacket, that is pretty good isolator and keep the warm inside, so I will take a liter of water in a sealed container and I will keep it under that jacket at a constant temperature of 60°C until it won't turn into a black hole... Cool, huh? According to Bored Chemist, it should be theoretically possible...

What I said was that, if you keep adding heat (which will obviously heat up the body hotter than 1000C) then it will get hotter.

How are you claiming that is the same as if I don't heat it, it will get hotter?
You just aren't making sense.
And you are lying about what I said.

If not, then what kind of energy will keep growing inside the cavity due to constant thermal radiation?

Growing is not the same as constant.
You make no sense.

[CrazyScientist (OP)]

I guess, you slept during physics classes, when the Newton's laws of motion were discussed... If you wouldn't sleep, you would know, that to slow down an object, that moves at constant velocity, you need to use a force - so photons, which are slowing down the mirror are giving up their own energy... It's basic physics - aren't you ashamed to not know such things?

Are you  deliberately missing the point?

so photons, which are slowing down the mirror are giving up their own energy

In the same not real way in which an engine uses its energy to slow a car down, and the brakes speed it up by taking energy from it and converting it to heat.
You really are being absurd here.

Ahhh, so now photons DON'T spend their energy to slow down an object? So they also don't spend energy to accelerate that object?

That's a VERY interesting physics you're proposing here - I'm sure you have some sources, which will confirm this. Do you?

because this is what you said:

Yes.
And this is not what I said.

have a winter jacket, that is pretty good isolator and keep the warm inside, so I will take a liter of water in a sealed container and I will keep it under that jacket at a constant temperature of 60°C until it won't turn into a black hole... Cool, huh? According to Bored Chemist, it should be theoretically possible...

What I said was that, if you keep adding heat (which will obviously heat up the body hotter than 1000C) then it will get hotter.

How are you claiming that is the same as if I don't heat it, it will get hotter?
You just aren't making sense.
And you are lying about what I said.

If not, then what kind of energy will keep growing inside the cavity due to constant thermal radiation?

Growing is not the same as constant.
You make no sense.

From the beginning, I'm speaking about a source of CONSTANT radiation - it's YOU, who keep talking about growing energy - like here:

It won't reach an equilibrium- because there's always more energy being added.

[CrazyScientist (OP)]

What I said was that, if you keep adding heat (which will obviously heat up the body hotter than 1000C) then it will get hotter.

Nope. I will add energy to KEEP the source at 1000°C - just as I will add energy to KEEP a light source shining... It's the same principle...

[Bored chemist]

Nope. I will add energy to KEEP the source at 1000°C

Why?
It can't lose energy- because any EM radiation that it emits is reflected back, and it absorbs it.

So there's no loss.

It is, in effect, perfectly insulated.
So why do you keep adding energy?

[CrazyScientist (OP)]

Nope. I will add energy to KEEP the source at 1000°C

Why?
It can't lose energy- because any EM radiation that it emits is reflected back, and it absorbs it.

So there's no loss.

It is, in effect, perfectly insulated.
So why do you keep adding energy?

Because when you "turn on" the heater for the first time, it has to warm up the surrounding medium - just like a source of light has to brighten up the darkness around it.

And only when the equilibrium is reached by the system, the source doesn't need to be powered up by an external source - this is EXACTLY, what I'm telling you from the beginning.

Source of EM radiatiom inside a cavity will simply stop to drain a battery, when the "capacity" of probability distribution inside the cavity will become "full" of the emitted radiation. No black hole will be formed...

[Bored chemist]

So, what you are saying is that, if you don't do anything, nothing happens.
Well, yes that's true.
But it's not interesting.

In particular, nobody ever suggested that it would create a BH.

On the other hand, you seem to be ignoring the case where a BH would form, because you don't want to admit that it would.

I could say " If you take a sphere 1mm in diameter and put mass into it the, when you get to something like the mass of the earth, it will turn into a black hole."


That's still true if the mass is composed of photons.

What you seem to be saying is that you do not believe this.
And, as evidence, you say that putting a single atom into the sphere doesn't make a black hole.

Well, no it won't.
But if you stop adding stuff before you reach the threshold mass, then you are not looking at the right question.
You are moving the goalposts.

The point isn't what happens if you stop when there's only enough energy in there to get it fairly bright red; the point is what happens when you carry on adding energy.

I have a different question or two.
If you remove the thermostat and just let the heater deliver 1 watt of heat to the inside of the sphere (from which none can escape) , and if the heater is magic so it won't burn out,
(1) what happens to the mass of the sphere as a function of time and
(2) what happens win the end?

I asked that, and you still haven't answered- instead you talked bollocks about coats.
Did you think that was science?


Even allowing for that, you are still pretty much wrong, because you say things like this:

Because when you "turn on" the heater for the first time, it has to warm up the surrounding medium

What medium?
There's a vacuum.
The walls don't absorb heat so they don't need to warm up.

Source of EM radiatiom inside a cavity will simply stop to drain a battery,

How will that work?
How will the zinc "know" that it has to stop reacting and pulling electrons round the circuit?

You seem to be hoping that magic will happen.

[CrazyScientist (OP)]

In particular, nobody ever suggested that it would create a BH.

Oh really?  So you didn't say, that a constant emission of EM radiation in a perfectly reflective cavity will lead to creation of a black hole? Strange, I thought, that this is exactly what you said...

On the other hand, you seem to be ignoring the case where a BH would form, because you don't want to admit that it would.

It was never the question in this discussion...

I could say " If you take a sphere 1mm in diameter and put mass into it the, when you get to something like the mass of the earth, it will turn into a black hole."

First you would have to prove, that it is even possible, to compress a bunch of photons into one photon, or that you can squeeze 2 atoms in a single location. Good luck with that...

That's still true if the mass is composed of photons.

What you seem to be saying is that you do not believe this.
And, as evidence, you say that putting a single atom into the sphere doesn't make a black hole.

Well, no it won't.
But if you stop adding stuff before you reach the threshold mass, then you are not looking at the right question.
You are moving the goalposts.

The point isn't what happens if you stop when there's only enough energy in there to get it fairly bright red; the point is what happens when you carry on adding energy.

What does it even has to do with the discussed subject?

The point isn't what happens if you stop when there's only enough energy in there to get it fairly bright red; the point is what happens when you carry on adding energy.

You just simply won't be able to add energy, because all atoms of the source will keep being excited without the possibility of EM wave emission

I have a different question or two.
If you remove the thermostat and just let the heater deliver 1 watt of heat to the inside of the sphere (from which none can escape) , and if the heater is magic so it won't burn out,
(1) what happens to the mass of the sphere as a function of time and
(2) what happens win the end?

No more additional energy will be accepted into the system.

What medium?
There's a vacuum.
The walls don't absorb heat so they don't need to warm up.

Whatever you like it to be. What a medium does, is only to AMPLIFY the effects of radiation in vacuum. There even doesn't have to be a medium.

How will that work?
How will the zinc "know" that it has to stop reacting and pulling electrons round the circuit?

You seem to be hoping that magic will happen.

Dear mr Chemist - and how atoms "know", how to react only to certain frequencies of radiation?

[Bored chemist]

Strange, I thought, that this is exactly what you said...

No.
What I said was that if you keep adding more and more EM radiation you will get a BH.

Not, if you put a little light in a box and then wait which is what you sometimes seem to be talking about- for example when you say you heat something to red hot and then leave it in a box.

Do you see the difference?

[Bored chemist]

It was never the question in this discussion...

You introduced it in your opeingi post

. If the sphere is somehow 100% indestructible, then energy inside it (density of photons) will become such high, that it will form a black hole - such hypothetical phenomenon has even it's own term, known as "kugelblitz".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugelblitz_(astrophysics)

Personally, I consider both those options as completely wrong and physically impossible.

[Bored chemist]

You just simply won't be able to add energy, because all atoms of the source will keep being excited without the possibility of EM wave emission

There is nothing to stop the emission.

[Bored chemist]

First you would have to prove, that it is even possible, to compress a bunch of photons into one photon,

Nobody said anything about doing that.
It is another of your tiresome strawmen.

What does it even has to do with the discussed subject?

Because that's the mechanism for the mainstream science which you don't want to believe

. If the sphere is somehow 100% indestructible, then energy inside it (density of photons) will become such high, that it will form a black hole - such hypothetical phenomenon has even it's own term, known as "kugelblitz".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugelblitz_(astrophysics)

Personally, I consider both those options as completely wrong and physically impossible.

[Bored chemist]

There even doesn't have to be a medium.

Well, you introduced it.

Because when you "turn on" the heater for the first time, it has to warm up the surrounding medium

My point is that , if you don't introduce a medium, you don't have to warm it up, do you?
How long does it take to warm up nothing?

[Bored chemist]

No more additional energy will be accepted into the system.

Again, you are saying what you believe to be true, but you are not offering any evidence.

And we have seen before that you believe things which are not true.

[Bored chemist]

Dear mr Chemist - and how atoms "know", how to react only to certain frequencies of radiation?

Resonance, but it has nothing to do with the issue, and you should realise that.

It's still your job to answer the question properly.

How will that work?
How will the zinc "know" that it has to stop reacting and pulling electrons round the circuit?

You seem to be hoping that magic will happen.