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  4. Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
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Could quantum mechanics be wrong?

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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #80 on: 08/04/2024 13:26:43 »
I asked Gemini, Is there any equation predicting that hydrogen will produce diatomic molecules?
Quote
No, there isn't a single equation in classical chemistry that predicts exactly how many atoms will bond together to form a molecule like H2.  However, there are fundamental principles and calculations in quantum mechanics that can explain why hydrogen forms a diatomic molecule (H2) and why some elements form single atoms or larger molecules.
Here's why a simple equation isn't enough:

Quantum mechanics rules the game: The behavior of electrons at the atomic level is governed by the principles of quantum mechanics. These principles describe the probabilistic nature of electrons occupying orbitals around the nucleus.
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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #81 on: 08/04/2024 16:38:22 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/04/2024 13:17:00
Can it be described in a single paragraph?

I did here:

Quote from: Kryptid on 06/04/2024 19:00:54
For one, a pair of protons isn't going to randomly join together to form a single nucleus because the Coulomb barrier is too strong to overcome at common temperatures and pressures. So they remain separate. The number of nuclei dictates the total number of atoms. The electrons then arrange themselves in the lowest energy configuration around those nuclei.

The Pauli exclusion principle goes a long way towards telling you how those electrons will be arranged, as you can't have more than two electrons per orbital (electrons are fermions, so no two of them can have identical quantum numbers).
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #82 on: 08/04/2024 19:25:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/04/2024 13:26:43
I asked Gemini, Is there any equation predicting that hydrogen will produce diatomic molecules?
Why not try asking a textbook, or a scientist?
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #83 on: 08/04/2024 21:53:58 »
Ander&Sonnessa, principles of chemistry.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #84 on: 12/04/2024 16:42:33 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/04/2024 19:25:34
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/04/2024 13:26:43
I asked Gemini, Is there any equation predicting that hydrogen will produce diatomic molecules?
Why not try asking a textbook, or a scientist?
Gemini has read various publicly available online sources, and can make conclusions accordingly. It answers specific questions almost immediately, including the follow up.

Textbooks typically don't answer specific questions.
Scientists typically don't answer specific questions from strangers.
« Last Edit: 14/04/2024 05:23:45 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #85 on: 12/04/2024 16:48:27 »
Quote from: Kryptid on 08/04/2024 16:38:22
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/04/2024 13:17:00
Can it be described in a single paragraph?

I did here:

Quote from: Kryptid on 06/04/2024 19:00:54
For one, a pair of protons isn't going to randomly join together to form a single nucleus because the Coulomb barrier is too strong to overcome at common temperatures and pressures. So they remain separate. The number of nuclei dictates the total number of atoms. The electrons then arrange themselves in the lowest energy configuration around those nuclei.

The Pauli exclusion principle goes a long way towards telling you how those electrons will be arranged, as you can't have more than two electrons per orbital (electrons are fermions, so no two of them can have identical quantum numbers).
Your first answer hasn't involved Pauli's principle, which means it hasn't correctly explain why hydrogen atoms automatically form diatomic molecules.
« Last Edit: 12/04/2024 16:53:59 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #86 on: 12/04/2024 20:50:50 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/04/2024 16:42:33
Gemini has read various publicly available online sources, and can make conclusions accordingly. It answers specific questions almost immediatelyimmediately, including the follow up.
and has given you a couple of paragraphs of bullshit.

Quote
Textbooks typically don't answer specific questions.
Those we quoted answer the question you posed.

Quote
Scientists typically don't answer specific questions from strangers.
But that's how I make my living! Every new client begins as a stranger with a question, and in the fulness of time becomes a friend with an answer.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #87 on: 14/04/2024 05:21:47 »
How atoms REALLY make molecules!
Quote
What is molecular orbital theory and how does it work? Are you confused about frontier orbitals, HOMO and LUMOs? These concepts and more are explained with examples and animations.
Textbooks have limitations related to its static and 2 dimensional properties. They also tend to oversimplify things.


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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #88 on: 14/04/2024 13:47:36 »
Not the textbooks I read as an undergraduate. I acquired a usefully explanatory and predictive knowledge of molecular orbitals and some of my contemporaries went on to design and synthesise useful molecules for a living. You can write an n-dimensional equation on a piece of paper with no problem.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #89 on: 16/04/2024 09:23:50 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 14/04/2024 13:47:36
Not the textbooks I read as an undergraduate. I acquired a usefully explanatory and predictive knowledge of molecular orbitals and some of my contemporaries went on to design and synthesise useful molecules for a living. You can write an n-dimensional equation on a piece of paper with no problem.
Which textbooks did you read?
How good are they compared to modern AI's design and synthesis?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #90 on: 16/04/2024 13:19:11 »
So far, the only relevant AI output you have quoted in this thread was wrong.

I listed some classic inorganic chemistry textbooks in reply #72. I also have in front of me Evans: Crystal Chemistry, Acheson: Heterocyclic Compounds, and Jaffe: Symmetry in Chemistry, all of which do exactly what your chatbot said was impossible. Sadly I can't find my first-year organic chemistry textbook but it certainly hinted at the quantum nature of stereochemistry in the hope that we'd learn enough physics to cope with the second year!
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #91 on: 16/04/2024 14:57:30 »
Cotton&Wilkinson, inorganic chemistry(a text that both BC and I have) is good on general chemistry.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #92 on: 19/04/2024 11:30:26 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/04/2024 13:19:11
So far, the only relevant AI output you have quoted in this thread was wrong.
Is this statement by Gemini wrong?
Quote
No, there isn't a single equation in classical chemistry that predicts exactly how many atoms will bond together to form a molecule like H2. 
What's the correct equation?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #93 on: 19/04/2024 15:21:05 »
Schroedinger, with a dash of Pauli.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #94 on: 20/04/2024 01:01:48 »
Is it just me?...
"Could quantum mechanics be wrong?"

https://xkcd.com/675/
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #95 on: 28/04/2024 02:13:58 »
The best way to overturn an established theory is to come up with a better theory. Either by being more generally applicable, or by being simpler by using less assumptions.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #96 on: 28/04/2024 02:32:03 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/04/2024 15:21:05
Schroedinger, with a dash of Pauli.
How do they tell you that monoatomic  and triatomic hydrogen are unstable?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #97 on: 28/04/2024 10:26:36 »
Schroedinger and Pauli.

Monatomic hydrogen is stable (it doesn't collapse or decompose) but extremely reactive, forming H2 if there's nothing more interesting to combine with.

Having a complete (Schroedinger) and fully populated (Pauli) σ orbital, H2 is not inclined to bond with  another H atom to form H3.
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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #98 on: 29/04/2024 03:50:59 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/04/2024 02:13:58
The best way to overturn an established theory is to come up with a better theory. Either by being more generally applicable, or by being simpler by using less assumptions.

We haven't been able to do that with quantum mechanics yet.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
« Reply #99 on: 30/04/2024 14:46:19 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 28/04/2024 10:26:36
Schroedinger and Pauli.

Monatomic hydrogen is stable (it doesn't collapse or decompose) but extremely reactive, forming H2 if there's nothing more interesting to combine with.

Having a complete (Schroedinger) and fully populated (Pauli) σ orbital, H2 is not inclined to bond with  another H atom to form H3.
I think stable means do not easily change into something else.

Even H2 can change into something else quite easily.
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