[OldDragon]

This is all a very fascinating subject for me to study, Andrew, but to put your mind at rest, mine isn't the normal type of sofa with solid arms. I don't prop myself up on the arm at the head end, as that is a simple, metal arch, I just use pillow. There's nothing at the foot end for my feet to connect against, except perhaps a sleeping dog, so the feet would end up poking over the end into space if I slipped down the incline. It's the support the sofa back provides for my back, and to keep my sleeping on my side rather than rolling onto my back during sleep, that I rely on. It's also ample long enough for me to stretch out full length along, being a sofa bed, rather than a bed. I could pull it out to make it a flat, double bed, but by morning be unable to get out of it and be in agony. Perhaps, if there's a significant improvement resulting from inclining the sofa bed, I'll risk pulling it out flat one day in the future, but not at this stage or as my back is at present, okay? []

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Great, I can now sleep at night myself instead of worrying about you and the dogs piled up at the bottom of a settee

It might interest you to know that this is normal for our family, we are continually snuggled up with 3 of our 4 bull terriers. The older one Nelly is an antisocial miserable old cow around the home but we still love her Shes great when shes outdoors. At 10 she managed to bag a magpie that came too close while out for a stroll (terrier type) Still one less magpie means lots more safe birds eggs.

Got a good feeling about you joining this study and know if it does not go to plan you will say so and if it does you will tell it how it is. Your friend should benefit from IBT greatly given her problems with nerve damage.

[OldDragon]

I have a feeling about it too, Andrew. Borrowing from my goddaughter's vocabulary, when I first read this thread, I was 'prinkling'. []

I have my grandson here now, so concentration is impossible! He's now trying to discover what the two levers do under my office chair, so I'm on tenterhooks in case my seat suddenly crashes down! Think he'll need to be a bit stronger yet to operate the levers but... Counted over 50 Whys, whats and hows already since he walked in through the door! Still lagging behind with answers for him as he speeds ahead with the questions, punctuated by tales and queries after the black dog's health, since the little golden one was ill and had to be put to sleep! He wanted a drink, so I offered him a sip of my 'Beekle juice' (beetroot juice), which he's never tried, so was suspicious of, unlike his father at that age, who would eat pickled beetroot (or onions) until the cows came home and then drink the vinegar as well. Instead he opted for my 'squirty bottle' of water, send a load down his neck and chest with a misfire at his mouth, so promptly upped his t-shirt and dried his chest on his granddad's trousers! Granddad (my ex) then threatened to leave him here with me, which would have delighted the young 'Mini-Mick-Taker' so grandma had to do a rapid fiery dragon act and herd the pair of them out of the front door!

What's the betting than little fellow wants to know why my sofa bed is inclined and when it finally is... Who would have though it so hard to get hold of a couple of 6" blocks of wood? It'll be easier around here to find an old length of railway sleeper and cut that to size... and I just might know where one of those is...

Be seeing you!

BTW, the Grumpy Old Mare is moving house, so may be missing for a couple of weeks and until she has her internet connection sorted at the new location.  []

[OldDragon]

Progress Report:

Someone had pinched that railway sleeper!  [] (It would have been a swine to extract anyway, and I think it must either have gone or been buried when a JCB was working in the area recently.)

I have ordered a pair of wooden lifts to be made by probably the only place around here willing to make them as a one off item, and at a price I'd rather not afford, so Mike has kindly offered to put his money where my mouth is. (This probably in return for resisting the temptation to remove or otherwise alter his scalp in the recent challenge.) [] I am told by the managing director of the company, in person, that they will be ready next Wednesday. (That'll be £30 per pair, Mike, and that's for the soft wood ones, so if you want hard wood ones... might I suggest you or Mig saw a couple of your oak logs to size?)

Photos: (Be warned, these are not a pretty sight!  [] )


Left Inside Leg - showing affected veins and a degree of oedema present together with the depression left in that from wearing trews with elasticated bottoms.


Right upper inside leg - difficult to see the veins due to the current level of oedema. The marks showing in that represent having been wearing knee length socks.



Right ankle and lower leg, again showing a measure of oedema from wearing trews with elasticated bottoms.

Varicose veins not shown: Haemorrhoids.

History:

The varicose veins on my right leg began to develop following a riding accident when aged 16 years (August 1968) and after being trampled by a young pony whilst training for a career in the equestrian industry. Although not easy to identify, there is still a horseshoe shaped depression in the lower calf region and between the two main areas affected. The upper area has been affected on numerous occasions by phlebitis and, possibly, by cellulitis. (Different doctors, different diagnosis - each prescribed the same anti-biotic on each occasion, with was successful in treating it. I will confirm the name of that anti-biotic if/when I can access my medical records.) At the time of the riding accident, some neurological damage occured and resulting in a loss of sensation to the right big toe. This was finally and fully restored after approximately 4-5 years.

The varicose veins on the left leg and mid-calf region have gradually developed with the onset of middle age.

The haemorrhoid problem can be traced back 30 years (1978) to pregnancy and the birth of my son in 1978, and these have been an ongoing problem, and especially acute when affected by IBS, which is largely controlled by diet unless the need to take medication causes an impact on the system, affecting the frequency and consistency of bowel movements.

The oedema varies according the what exercise is possible at a given time, and whether or not, often severe, periods of insomnia occur, and/or whether it is possible at any given time to rest with the weight off the legs.

Current Weight: 15st 2lbs (212lbs) following breast cancer surgery and full left axillary lymph node clearance operations. (Pre-operative  weight: 14st (196lbs.) )

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Thanks for the photographs, which are very useful. These show predominantly thread veins, which are not swollen like varicose veins. The vein on the back of your calf is a varicose vein but is probably obscured from view by your oedema. The oedema on the other hand should be easier to determine improvements or indeed the reverse.

Have you been advised to raise your legs to address the oedema and varicose veins? This is the usual advice people are given by their doctors, nurses and therapists.

Your current blood pressure stats might prove to be valuable also if you have them as this should alter too and should be monitored. Your GP might be interested in what happens with regards to BP.

The Following 2 photographs were taken 5 days after IBT. I have added them to this post so they can be compared more easily on the same page.

[OldDragon]

Thanks, Andrew. Actually, the photos don't show clearly how prominant and swollen the ones just below my right ankle are in reality. The dark spots usually stand out about 1/4" from the rest of my skin. Those below the right knee, when the oedema isn't obscuring them also, are varicose, trust me! Lol

I have been told to put my feet up in the past, but not necessarily to raise them at an angle. Just to take my weight off them, and not to sit at the PC etc for too long a period without taking a break and walking around to help the circulation. All very well when I can, and I do tend to do that naturally, but of late, yes, I've been sitting too long in one position, and without sufficient breaks. []

Will add the BP Stats later and once I have stopped rushing around feeding critters and dealing with chaos here.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Hate to be a pain in the ass but could you measure your legs in order to determine how swollen they are as this will help to see how the swelling is responding or not to IBT.

[OldDragon]

No problem, Andrew. []

Left mid calf: 45cms

Right mid calf: 43cms

These measurements taken after assisting the vet to examine (including internally); inject and tube a two years old pony with gas colic; getting head butted in the left breast (yeah, right on the op site/healing scar); and generally being thrown around a stable! [] Somehow I think today is not a good day to record blood pressure! Just been back to check the said 'sick pony' before vet phones me back, in case she has deteriorated and we need to consider euthanasia. Said 'sick pony' has now rearranged the stable furniture, kicked the water bucket to bits, done her percussion practice for my amusement all around the kicking boards and doors and farted directly into my face! I was supposed to listen and check her for gut movement, and check her pulse points, and the colour of her gums etc. The gums looked okay when she was attempting to take my hand off and I would say taking her pulse would be a waste of time right now, and until she's ceased the tantrum or circus act! LOL

Not sure what the vet will make of it when she calls, but unless she's eaten locoweed, I'd say she was clearly feeling better, and I'm not about to risk my neck further by scrabbling around looking for fresh bits of dung in the shavings with her throwing tantrums like that! She actually reminds me a bit of the pony that trampled me that time, although that one turned out to have a brain tumour, this one's just a sassy madam feeling better after a colic bout... I take it you agree re. the blood pressure? []


BTW, what you said about the bladder/oedema - granny was sucking eggs as a toddler - aye, and squatting in the corners of stables every few minutes when she wasn't peeing herself trying to get out of the way of the flying hoofs! Lol []

[OldDragon]

Andrew, further to our discussons re. oedema and nettle tea/asparagus detox, I thought you might like to know the current measurements of my calves.

Left mid calf: 42cms (Down from 45cms.)

Right mid calf: 42cms (Down from 43cms.)

And this is before raising the bed for the IBT! When last measured for the purpose of buying a pair of half-chaps a couple of months ago, each calf measured 38cms.

Tomorrow I will see if I can get into my wellies again.

[OldDragon]

Just a quick update - both calves have gone down now to 41cms.

Checked my BP earlier and that was 142/84 and pulse rate was 85; respiration 10 per min.

Thought to check it again after sitting here a while doing nothing more than typing. Shocked to see it is now 158/91 and my pulse 79. Respiration still 10 per minute.

Body fat now showing a horrendous 49.6%; Body Water 35.1% and body muscle 47.3%!

Can anyone explain how these machines are supposed to work? How can one end up with a total percentage that exceeds 100%?

[Karen W.]

Hummm thats odd.. I don't know I have never used one that measures all that stuff!

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Great thanks for providing the stats very useful later. After you tilt your bed we will be able to determine what if anything has changed from sleeping flat.

The asparagus and nettle Tea when combined with IBT should produce some observable changes in oedema.

[OldDragon]

Karen, I spotted it on offer in the local pharmacy when there yesterday, and so cheap I couldn't resist it. (I am as bad as my grandson for gadgets! Lol )

However, I have asked in the technical forum for more information about how these monitors work and can give accurate readings. Another mystery for the OD to add to the collection. []

Time for a nettle tea and a bath, I think, before I land the little collection of printed papers on my doctor's desk this afternoon...

Btw - BP this morning after simply sitting here is: 154/88;

Pulse rate: 86
Respiration: 10
Body fat: 49.8%
Body Water: 35%
Body Muscle: 47.1%
Mid Calf circumference - both now: 40cms.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

http://www.psoriasis-help.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18376.50.html





Penny a few years ago in Lanzarote on the right.
Penny used to have a large varicose vein down the inside of her leg. This has now gone flat also.
Note also Penny’s skin to this day remains clear, although on occasions she does get some P on elbows and in the lower back area, but these are temporary flares rather than stubborn psoriasis.

I have just been sent some pretty impressive photographs from another person who is testing IBT for varicose veins. In due course we will have a set of photographs for comparison and then we can identify whether this is working or not.

Andrew K Fletcher

[OldDragon]

That is all really encouraging, Andrew. []

Collected my blocks today and my son remembered to turn up to do the bed lifting, so I'm all  ready for kick off now.

Just taken another set of stats for you, which are as follows:

BP this evening when sitting here watching Nadal v Murray match [] is: 138/82;
Pulse rate: 85
Respiration: 10
Body fat: 49.6%
Body Water: 35.1%
Body Muscle: 47.3%
Mid Calf circumference - both still: 40cms.
Weight: 15 st.

For the record: Today has been very wet here in the valley and my joints have all been aching from arthritis. (Polyarthropathy affects me literally from toes to jaw and all between. Noticably worst in ankles, knees, spine, shoulders, elbows, and wrists today.)

Medication and suppliments taken:
1 x 1 a day cod liver oil and glucosamine capsule.
600mg dispersible aspirin.
1 x 10mg Loratadine (Non-sedating antihistamine to address hayfever/sneezing, as the latter especially can aggravate my back inflamation.)
By the time I go to bed - 2 x cups nettle tea, plus some asparagus with a chicken and rice for evening meal, beef salad roll lunch and cereal/fruit/nuts mix for breakfast with 1% fat skimmed milk.

Exercise today has largely been only stretching and short period of that while using hand-held, low weights - no more than 7lbs per arm.

If you need anything else, Andrew, please let me know.

[alun006]

Andrew

A knee pain that i never got diagnosed properly and am guaranteed to get a visit from at least 2-5 times depending a week, is now behaving differently.

A Specialist doctor looked at this problem when i was 5 years old,growing pains seemed the easiest way to diagnose it, at 6ft 3.5 inches i did grow but stopped several years ago. I am now 33 years old and i am still suffering. A operation was tried several years later but did not work.

I would normally get a slight pain behind the knee, this was a warning that the pain was coming, now i either stopped the pain before it started by taking the pain killers early or i would loose the pain and it would come back very bad the second time.

This pain has been known when not treated to stop me walking properly.

The pain is now only coming on with the first warning signs under the knee, then it is going and not returning as it would do normally, i have also noticed that when i told you that i had a pea shaped swelling that was tender to the touch on my groin creece that was noticed on saturday. (It feels like when you touch under your neck when you have a bad cold.) i was presuming it was a swollen groin gland, is it possible that this might be a sign that my system may be trying to fight this horrible knee pain from coming on, as it is starting and stopping at least 4 times daily at the moment without fully developing.  And i don't have to reach for the pain killers.

Only 2 full attacks this week with this pain.
Alun

I have never experienced this pain to start coming on not flare up fully and not return?
I will keep you posted on this interesting development

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Alun thank you for posting these photographs. They offer much encouragement for others to join this important study but they also offer some serious problems for current physiology literature, which does not and cannot relate to how gravity can change pressures inside the veins! In fact the common advice is for people to sleep with their legs up above the heart and this has never been shown to offer any permanent relief from varicose veins or oedema.

Prediction: All good theories can offer sound clear repeatable results. I have been repeating these same experiments since 1994 and producing predictable repeatable results. But alas these can be easily ignored, and have been ignored by too many.
 
To prove this point again, I made another identical prediction in the very title of this thread as a challenge for nurses’ doctors, scientists and surgeons to test my theory and come back to us and relay their findings. Once again and sadly none were forthcoming so presumably this challenge has also fallen on deaf ears.

Alan’s results so far look pretty conclusive for a mere 7 days of Inclined Bed Therapy out of the 4 weeks of IBT that were advised in order to show substantial improvements.

My research has taken me on a long learning curve as to how best to go about showing the importance of gravity to people who should sit up and take notice in order to save lives from unnecessary and dangerous procedures that expose people to lethal infectious diseases, blocked and collapsed veins, circulation failure, stroke, heart failure and with little chance of providing permanent remedial results frequently leading to more repeat surgery.

In this thread I have stated that we have to address the cause of varicose veins which is a pressure difference between the vein and the surrounding muscle and skin tissue. When the pressure is higher inside the vein or lymph system fluid leeches out causing the limb to swell. Inclined bed therapy (IBT) addresses this by recognising how solutes alter pressure inside vessels when they are moved by gravity in the direction they are supposed to move and it is the solutes that provide the reduced swelling in varicose veins by altering the pressure in the arteries and increasing the tension in the blood inside the veins and when the pressure inside the veins and lymph system change favourably to the surrounding tissue pressure we see a migration of oedema back into the veins, through the arteries where the solutes and the excess fluid is excreted in the urine.

Did Alun’s feet swell up as a result of IBT? Apparently not according to the photographic evidence!

Andrew K Fletcher

[OldDragon]

First night sleeping on the inclined bed, there was no noticeable increase in the oedema in my ankles, Andrew, but the biggest change I noticed was that I woke actually feeling as if I'd had some measure of restorative sleep. That must be the first time in months that has happened to me. Could be coincidence, of course, but...?

There was also less aching from the arthritis in my feet, ankles and knees, despite the weather still being wet. I felt well energised all day. Too well, perhaps, as still wide awake at four the next morning, when I needed to up early for a hospital appointment by 7.30am. []

Second night of IBT was therefore a short one, and was woken before naturally ready to wake, so not aware of feeling well-rested. Still no ankle swelling to report, but it does seem that either two lots of different hospital scales or the ones at the local chemist's must be wrong, as they weighed me today at a different hospital and 14st! A couple of days ago I was 15st on the chemist's scales, and 15st 2lbs on those just before. [] Will be glad when the right sized batteries for my own scales are in stock in town. I might then have a better idea of where I am at weight-wise and whether it is 4st or 5st I need to shed! Could be the weight gain was only 2lbs afterall and has been lost with the reduction of the oedema? There is still a bit of that present, and my calves are back up to 41cms, but the varicose veins on the right leg are becoming more visible now the swelling is reducing.

[OldDragon]

My stats taken this morning - 3rd day of IBT:

BP 137/87
Pluse:75;
Body Fat: 49.6%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.3%;
Respiration 10 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 41cms

I woke today feeling refreshed again, and naturally, after about 6 hours sleep. This is an unfamiliar feeling for me because, having FM, I normally feel as if I've not had enough sleep.

The aching in my ankles and knees has definitely reduced, but my lower spine (L4 - S1) where there is currently noticable acitivity relating to degenerative disc disease (as shown by scan) that pre-existed IBT, the aching is still present. The aching in my shoulders, wrists and elbows seems to have lessenned. (Weather here is still damp and overcast.)

Have taken the usual daily cod liver oil and glucosamine capsule, plus two aspirins today as anti-inflammatory.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

A lady on another forum asked a question about people standing for prolonged periods having problems with varicose veins and oedema. So I have included my reply to her because many people will be wondering about how this applies to the IBT Theory.

I think there is some merit in standing for prolonged periods of time causing veins to swell but it may not be as obvious why this is happening and is often attributed to pooling of blood.

But we have a circular system, so if blood is pooling around the lower limbs something must be restricting the flow through the veins and causing back pressure.

Could this be the pressure on the tissue surrounding the veins in the feet, caused by the weight of a person standing in one position for too long? If this were the case, then the circulation might be compromised further and cause a person to collapse? Weddings, where a groom or bride stand motionless for longer than usual sometimes succumb to this and have been featured on short videos on TV. Guards standing to attention have learned to move their weight from one foot to another to avoid collapsing on duty. Again simply moving the weight like this would suffice to relieve the pressure and allow the system to function better.

Another point is that when a person has been on their feet all day they like nothing better than coming home to put their feet up, especially when the literature advises them that this is the best thing to do.

A giraffe for example stands on its feet and seldom lies down at all. One would thing with its massive height and impressive circulation it too would have varicose veins, yet it does not. NASA in fact are studying the animal to try to understand why it does not have problems with bulging veins. In the Giraffes leg the veins are closer to the bone than in humans and therefore have more muscle and tissue to hold in the pressure (It Is Thought by the NASA Scientists) Yet they still have to solve how those veins develop closer to the bones in the Giraffe. Could it be that the pressure inside the veins does not increase as predicted by the animal’s height? Indeed this appears to be the case. So if the pressure is much lower in the veins than the surrounding muscle and tissue the veins will not bulge and oedema will not form. But more to the point the pressure inside the muscles and skin will be higher than the vein and this should be able to explain why the veins remain closer to the animals bones while the animal grows to adult size. An analogy of this is a bench I once saw secured to a tree for many years. The tree had grown around the bench and a huge portion of it was inside the tree completely engulfed by the trees production line of tiny tubes we see as the grain in timber.   

I have added pictures from Old Dragon in one of my posts next to her original photographs for ease of comparison. These now photographs taken 5 days after Inclined Bed Therapy Began show a definite relief in skin tightness resulting from a migration of fluid from the affected limbs back into the main circulation as predicted.

Old Dragon’s Doctor predicted a significant increase in swelling which clearly has not occurred!