[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic.  All this at 28.  That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished.  Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.

Why should we be offended?  As you say, you are still a human being.

That you use the term 'alcoholic' in the present tense is of concern, but it is concern over your well-being, not anything else.

But, I would still ask, of the prison sentences you served, would they not have been better served if they had focused more of rehabilitation than on punishment, on giving you the strength to live without props like alcohol?

I would also ask, when you were on heroin, could you imagine yourself having committed murder while in that state (many heroin addicts do)?  While you were an addict, would any deterrent have been strong enough to match the need to find the next fix?

Sorry if I am asking my questions with assumption that may be more from ignorance than personal experience, and feel free to tell me where you feel my understanding of addiction and its effects (at least insofar they applied to your experience) may be flawed.

George

[Andy28 (OP)]

I know what you mean. When you are 'clucking' it makes you irrational and you do things you would'nt normally. I would never kill anybody because i have'nt got it in my nature but i still agree with capital punishment. The reason for that is because it is killing to prevent killing so it is justified in my view.

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

I know what you mean. When you are 'clucking' it makes you irrational and you do things you would'nt normally. I would never kill anybody because i have'nt got it in my nature but i still agree with capital punishment. The reason for that is because it is killing to prevent killing so it is justified in my view.

But then, if these people can be brought off heroin, and become perfectly good citizens, then have you not wasted a life unnecessarily?

In any case, capital punishment is not about preventing killing, it is after the event.  Now if we had capital punishment for all people with the potential to kill, before they actually do kill, then that would be another matter (was there not a film recently along that theme?).

Ofcourse, if you kill everyone who has the capacity to take human life, who would you have left to be your executioners (or your soldiers)?

George

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic.  All this at 28.  That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished.  Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.

Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms.  You are very young to have gone through all that.  What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.  

We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of.  For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony.  I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it.  I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison.  I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town).  I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio.   It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life.  The humiliation was almost unbearable for me.  I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well.  That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me.  I found out very quickly who my friends were.

Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way.  I'm just very curious about this.  For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion.  I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty.  Now I guess I can see both sides.  What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison?  I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak.  It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.

I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.

Carolyn

[moonfire]

Very well spoken Carolyn.  It is amazing how many "good" people had a bad rap just because a mistake...don't we all make mistakes?  I was on jury duty one time for someone who was allegedly accused of a major crime...I was the minority as I would not follow the pack of wolves sitting in the stand...the Top Juror Jerk...sorry, I know that is not what they are called...wanted us all to vote guilty because of "circumstantial evidence" I asked to review a tape again...still it did not look like him, face shape totally different and I pointed it out...but no one cared..."someone needed to pay for the haneous crime, being that he fit the profile he was the perfect candidate"  I was also told by the foreman that he was bound to do something anyways and we were protecting society...uh, how do you know that was my argument?  He said, because he fits the background of most killers...Amazing huh?  I argued with this Jerk for 3 hours and everyone was mad at me!  They did not care.  I asked him if he was psychic, or any certification he may have to know...then told me he owned his own business...I told him, oh, yeah, you are a thief as you rip everyone off and maybe involved with the mafia...oh, boy it set him on fire...I told him I had the same certifications as he did...NONE to assume this because of his background...hung jury...man was let go free and clear of charges...when the Jerk was asked by someone from the media(after being told we were not allowed to talk to them...soundslike a lawbreaker to me...he told them there was not enough conclusive evidence and most of us said he was not guilty...when the votes were counted...only 1 was not guilty..hmmm, was it him or me?  It was me (most of the jurors slept through our argument and did not hear a worddddd!)

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

[Karen W.]

I hear that Loretta and carolyn.. Hi Geaorge nice points..
Andy you do not shock me or worry me in any way... I think you are a bright young man .. and I'm sorry you have been through and are going through such an ordeal in your life.. You seem to think I don't think you can function in normal society.. Oh contraire, I think you can.. and you should be allowed to .. As should all people should be given the oportunity to grow from their mistakes and reestablish themselves into a society which in the perfect world would welcome them back.. It is sad that alot of people and you must be awre do not welcome those in your shoes back into society.. I am not one of those people and you do not shock me.. I love human beings and therefore Try to always find the good in everyone I meet.. So please don't worry about that but thanks for the answer to your age.. I see you are very young, I seen your picture earlier,  You remind me of my son and daughter.. He is 21 and she is turning 25  so that accounts for why I felt you were so young.. I could feel young vibes...LOL ! I wish you luck in your lifes Journey and hope that your future gets brighter and people treat you fairly and Kindly!!  We certainly don't begrudge you your opinion and I see you have  a strong one.. Seems that you were bothered by our opinion.. but they are after all opinions and if you go back and read my post.. You will see that I said, This is the best thing for me.... I cannot make this decision for anyone else and I feel you should do the same.. I had to let go of what others thought and then learn for myself what I could live with!! Your experience will guide you in the direction it dictates as long as you follow your heart and your conscience!

Karen

[lightarrow]

If someone, or a Country, kills for revenge or as a punishment, makes the same crime of murder of the murderer.
You cannot simply say: "but I'm right" or "The Country is right".
The killer could say the same, and he would be right, because everyone can have "right" human motivations.

Furthermore, even if in some cases it could be true that such an extreme punishment is a deterrent against crimes and, maybe, useful to change in better a person's behaviour, however this is not always true.

So, I'm against death penalty not because I'm compassionate, in general, with murderers (even if I could be in some cases), but because I'm not compassionate with who makes that sentence.

[Andy28 (OP)]

quote:Originally posted by Carolyn

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic.  All this at 28.  That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished.  Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.

Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms.  You are very young to have gone through all that.  What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.  

We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of.  For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony.  I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it.  I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison.  I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town).  I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio.   It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life.  The humiliation was almost unbearable for me.  I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well.  That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me.  I found out very quickly who my friends were.

Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way.  I'm just very curious about this.  For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion.  I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty.  Now I guess I can see both sides.  What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison?  I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak.  It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.

I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.

Carolyn

This was my point earlier. First people say the death penalty is wrong and next comes 'what purpose would my imprisonment serve'. We have to have rules and we have to be punished when we break them. That is the purpose - punishment.

[science_guy]

I think that sombody murders another, they should live in prison the number of years that person that was murdered had left in his/her live, to a minimum of 15.  If a person that was murdered at 50 and was projected to live till 80, the killer should be in prison for 30 years.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

I would engage you in a battle of wits, but it is against my moral code to attack the unarmed.

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

quote:Originally posted by Carolyn

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic.  All this at 28.  That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished.  Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.

Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms.  You are very young to have gone through all that.  What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.  

We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of.  For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony.  I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it.  I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison.  I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town).  I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio.   It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life.  The humiliation was almost unbearable for me.  I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well.  That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me.  I found out very quickly who my friends were.

Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way.  I'm just very curious about this.  For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion.  I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty.  Now I guess I can see both sides.  What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison?  I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak.  It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.

I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.

Carolyn

This was my point earlier. First people say the death penalty is wrong and next comes 'what purpose would my imprisonment serve'. We have to have rules and we have to be punished when we break them. That is the purpose - punishment.

I did not say that I should not have been punished.

quote:What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison? I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak. It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.

I said what purpose would it have served for me to go to prison?  I was punished, quite severely, thank you very much.  I am still being punished, and will continue to be punished for another 2-3 years. The only people that suffered from my crime were my family and myself.

Carolyn

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by science_guy

I think that sombody murders another, they should live in prison the number of years that person that was murdered had left in his/her live, to a minimum of 15.  If a person that was murdered at 50 and was projected to live till 80, the killer should be in prison for 30 years.

Sorry, but does this mean you get less of a sentence for murdering a smoker than a non-smoker, less for murdering an obese person than a person who has supposedly an ideal body mass index, does killing a defencless 95 year old widow deserve only a minimum sentence (and if her expected life expectance was only 80 years at the time - do you get 15 years credit)?

George

[Andy28 (OP)]

quote:Originally posted by Carolyn

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

quote:Originally posted by Carolyn

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic.  All this at 28.  That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished.  Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.

Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms.  You are very young to have gone through all that.  What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.  

We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of.  For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony.  I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it.  I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison.  I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town).  I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio.   It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life.  The humiliation was almost unbearable for me.  I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well.  That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me.  I found out very quickly who my friends were.

Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way.  I'm just very curious about this.  For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion.  I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty.  Now I guess I can see both sides.  What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison?  I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak.  It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.

I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.

Carolyn

This was my point earlier. First people say the death penalty is wrong and next comes 'what purpose would my imprisonment serve'. We have to have rules and we have to be punished when we break them. That is the purpose - punishment.

I did not say that I should not have been punished.

quote:What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison? I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak. It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.

I said what purpose would it have served for me to go to prison?  I was punished, quite severely, thank you very much.  I am still being punished, and will continue to be punished for another 2-3 years. The only people that suffered from my crime were my family and myself.

Carolyn

I'm not saying that in your particular case that you should have been banged up. Seeing as you were'nt it must have been a misdemeanor as your country will send you to jail for almost anything. I do think the USA goes over the top when it comes to length of sentence for other things other than murder. I heard one guy got 7 years for drink driving and another got life for nicking pizza (Under the 3 strikes and you're out law)!

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

I'm not saying that in your particular case that you should have been banged up. Seeing as you were'nt it must have been a misdemeanor as your country will send you to jail for almost anything. I do think the USA goes over the top when it comes to length of sentence for other things other than murder. I heard one guy got 7 years for drink driving and another got life for nicking pizza (Under the 3 strikes and you're out law)!

No misdemeanor.  Two felonies and was facing up to 5 years in prison, and $5,000.00 in fines.

Carolyn

[Andy28 (OP)]

I'm not really clued up on the American justice thing. What does felony mean? I take it it means you are in the sh*t?

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Andy28

I'm not really clued up on the American justice thing. What does felony mean? I take it it means you are in the sh*t?

LOL.  Yep, that's pretty much what it means.  A felony is a crime of a 'grave' or serious nature, punishable by more than one year in prison.  A misdemeanor is a crime that is less serious and usually punishable by less than one jear in jail, and by a fine of generally not to exceed $2,500.00.  

Carolyn

[another_someone]

Although one thing we have to clarify, that Carolyn's crime was not of a violent nature, and she never actually posed a real threat to the average citizen (it is what some people would classify as a 'victimless crime').

George

[Carolyn]

Good grief, I forgot to say that didn't I.  I can't believe I left that out, it was an important fact.  Thank you for looking out for me George - again.

Carolyn

[Andy28 (OP)]

What was the crime Carolyn? Sorry if it's too personal but i am nosey. Not only that but i very much doubt it will be anything that i would be horrified by. You seem like you just made a mistake, thats all.

[Carolyn]

No, it's not too personal.  I'm very nosey myself. The exact charges were failure to file tax returns, and failure to produce business records for inspection as required by law.  My opinion is that my actual crime was ignorance.  I started my business with a lousy accountant that disappeared and I didn't hire another one.  I didn't know anything about the restaurant business when I opened it.  I spent all of my time learning how to operate and keep a restaurant running, but didn't take the time to learn the accounting end of it.  I buried my head in the sand and hoped all the problems would just go away. I didn't make just one mistake, I made a whole series of them.  But hindsight is 20/20.

Carolyn

[Andy28 (OP)]

Lol. They were out of order taking you to court over that. I thought you were gonna say you were done with armed robbery or something. Anyway, the main thing is you did'nt go down eh?