REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?

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Offline neilep

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REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« on: 26/01/2004 19:53:58 »
I have a problem with people who believe in reincarnation.....if they can sometimes under hypnosis regress to an earlier life , then is is possible that they could be regressed far enough to start acting like apes, chimps etc etc ?.......also, if reincarnation does exist then where do all the extra people come from ?, if we all come back as someone else then how do you account for the rise in poplulation ? I would welcome any thoughts on my comments.......please note I am a complete novice and if my thoughts demonstrate complete and total naivety then that's correct, I'm a layman to say the least !!
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Offline bezoar

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #1 on: 27/01/2004 01:15:57 »
I studied all this a long time ago.  Apparently, you go to a state between lives where you get to review your life, and choose the circumstances in which you'll be reborn according to what lessons you need to learn.  So there's another plane, and some feel, life on other planets and in other dimensions, so there's lots of room for all those extra people.  I suppose, if we evolved from apes, then we could be regressed that far back.  One school of thought thinks that with each incarnation, your spirit ascends, therefore, if you were a cat before, you won't be a cat ever again.  Another school of thought believes once a human, always a human.  Some very educated scholars believe in reincarnation.  I believe Ben Franklin did.  I suppose every one has to find a belief system that works for them.
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #2 on: 27/01/2004 01:44:51 »
Thanks for your very interesting and illuminating comment.......it seems people who believe in reincarnation only have speculation to fall back on.......it would be fascinating to discover how reincarnation was first thought of....I presume it's a natural progression or related from the thought that there is life after death, or, a form of  alternate existence anyway........if one can not remember ones former existence then I don't really see the point.....though I can inderstand that some may say that whether you remember or not, your former life has an effect on your present life.....I believe the Universe existed quite well for billions of years before I came along and the world just 'got along' quite happily without me and will continue to do  so after I've gone too.
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Offline Ylide

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #3 on: 27/01/2004 04:00:31 »
From a biological standpoint, your memories are stored in various parts of the brain.  Cognitive information is in the cerebral cortex and sensory memories (visuals, sounds, feelings, etc) are stored in those related parts of the brain.  Storage and retrieval of these memories are carried out by the hippocampus.  This is all fairly well studied and understood.

From a logical standpoint, the entire contents of the brain would have to be transmitted with the soul in order for memories of previous lives to be available to the current incarnation.  Since just about all spiritual belief systems contend that the soul and the brain are entirely separate entities, the entire theory of reincarnation eats itself.  QED.

Therefore, I contend that people who are experiencing "past life" memories are simply either having random mental imagery come to be similiar to that of dreaming, or they have very active imaginations.  It might be interesting to study alleged past life descriptions and compare them to current life experiences.  For instance, those who claim to have been dukes, kings, and the like just might have power issues in their current life.  Those who claim to have been soldiers or warriors or some sort may want to lash out or attack someone but are not willing or not able to do so.  (this is all hypothesis, mind you...I am not claiming this to be factual or proven)

I guess we'll find out for sure when we die.

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Offline chris

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #4 on: 27/01/2004 10:55:06 »
I disagree with your point about memory retrieval involving the hippocampus. HM (who has no hippocampus) has intact memory pre-dating the surgical removal of both hippocampi to treat intractible epilepsy. His deficit is in the formation on new memories, subsequent to the surgery.

Chris

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I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception - Groucho Marx

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Offline Ylide

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #5 on: 27/01/2004 15:40:55 »
Hmm, it seems my source has an error.  Perhaps the hippocampus is involved more in the the storage aspect.  Regardless, the part of the brain that retrieves information is irrelevant, as the rest of my point still holds.  If the soul, as it were, were capable of storing memory, we would have no reason to do so with our brains.  



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Offline roberth

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #6 on: 27/01/2004 22:45:20 »
Personally, I think people are getting confused between recycling and reincarnation. When our mortal form has broken down to carbon (?) there's no memory. You become part of the Earth's life cycle. We live on our blue marble, in an enclosed environment, with very little going out or coming in. The self awareness the we, as a species, developed, makes some think there must be more than this life, but there isn't. When you're dead, you're dead. If you don't believe me, ask anyone that has died.
 

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Offline NakedScientist

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #7 on: 27/01/2004 22:56:59 »
death - a once in a lifetime experience !

TNS

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Offline Donnah

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #8 on: 27/01/2004 23:42:43 »
Roberth, I did, and they told me you are wrong.[;)]
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn

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Offline bezoar

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #9 on: 28/01/2004 02:49:40 »
Neilep,
It's true that people who believe in reincarnation have only speculation to go on, but then the same goes for all the people who believe in God.  Where's the proof?  We look for reasons to believe (sounds like Rod Stewart) because it makes our life more bearable to believe that there's a higher power that we can pray to, and someone bigger that all of us will hear it, and maybe change the course of things.  I can only tell you that in medicine, I've definitely seen some miracles, and that makes a believer out of me.  I get a very consistent positive response when I pray.  That makes me a believer.  If you're happier only believing in yourself, then that's your faith.  We find a belief system that we can live with and makes us comfortable with life.

We haven't yet gotten into the near death experiences. I think those can be chemically reproduced, however, those who have had those experiences will tell you that it's forever changed their life. And some of the reincarnation stories, although I'll admit not many, have been checked out and the memories have been validated.  How do you explain that?  Maybe more like Jung's theory of the universal consciousness.
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #10 on: 28/01/2004 11:00:19 »
Bezoar.
Thank you again for your comment. I find myself sometimes feeling how can one believe in an irrational supernatural force which defies all logic and is based purely on a belief and that's all ? and then, there are times when I'm not praying but looking up when I'm laying in bed and asking the question is there anything else ? and expecting an answer to manifest itself before my eyes, obviously, I've never had a response yet !!.....but I must admit I tend to believe in myself rather than a greater force.............but...there are times !!...I suppose I'm just one of those people who need to 'see' real proof rather than have faith in a conviction which i find very hard to accept.

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Offline genegenie

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #11 on: 28/01/2004 12:07:13 »
I suppose I'm going to sound totally loopy BUT I'll tell my story and cop the flack regardless.[;)]I'd better start by telling you that I've never had any psych problems (that I know of)....so here goes.

When I was a young child, lying in bed in that relaxed state just before sleep, I frequently heard voices, they were always the same voices, and I didn't know what they were saying, but they didn't frighten me at all. As I got older it stopped and never returned. I've since met 2 other people who experienced the same thing. I read somewhere recently that this is not uncommon, APPARENTLY it's remnants of your past life/lives. Any thoughts on this????

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Offline bezoar

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #12 on: 28/01/2004 14:56:45 »
Theory says that children are closer to the memories of the past lives, obviously, than adults.  Our intelligence, and the memories of the present obliterate the past life memories over time.  I remember my two year old saying to me -- and we did not watch TV in our house -- Mommy, remember when we used to have a fire to heat the house in the old days?  It was a very bizarre comment, and I couldn't figure out where it came from.  Maybe the same sort of thing.  
People can be regressed to past lives.  Whether it's memory or trick of the mind, who knows?  If you believe in ghosts, children are supposed to be better in communicating with ghosts.  Guess the fear factor with them is less.
 

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Offline h4mi

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #13 on: 28/01/2004 23:58:18 »
Buddhism could be said to be "in-tune" with reincarnation. as stated in one of its texts [not word for word] that...if one does want to be good in the next life, they should do good in this one..
 

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Offline roberth

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #14 on: 29/01/2004 00:03:06 »
So...when we reach Utopia, after death, is the place going to full of dinosaurs. They were here for 750 million years while we've been around for about 1/2 million, or are we the only species that gets to go there? Utopia sounds scary!
I also think that when we were kids (a long time ago for me) our imagination was a lot more active and creative and dreams seemed a lot more real. Suggestions can become real memories and dreams can become fact over time. How come people only remember past lives as humans? You don't hear anybody say "I remember when I was a gnat and got eaten by a spider".
 

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Offline genegenie

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #15 on: 29/01/2004 03:29:21 »
Roberth, my experiences were distinguishable from dreams, they were frequent, always the same, and only occured when I was in a state of total relaxation. It was a long time ago for me as well[;)], but I do remember them quite well. I'm not convinced about reincarnation, (I like to be hit in the face with something before I believe it[:)])but there are too many things that cannot be explained - such as bezoar's 2yo's comments!!!! Wow!!!!

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Offline pencilhead

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #16 on: 30/01/2004 01:44:45 »
I don't believe in reincarnation.  WHY?
I don't believe in a spirit that goes into a different dimension and comes back into another body?  How is that possible?  If you don't believe in GOD then is there such a thing as a spirit.  Is there such a thing as a soul?  What is a soul?  The sum of our thoughts are made from what we get from our environment through our senses.  When some of us feel god, is it just the mind rushing the blood through the veins creating a feeling of euphoria using chemicals that were induced by the beauty or thought of something so profound.  Something that overwhelms us is something is is big and complex that perplexes or confuses the mind that it doesn't understand and goes into a "deep" mode feeling.
 

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Offline pencilhead

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #17 on: 30/01/2004 01:46:04 »
so let me explain since there is no spirit just the physical body and the mind there is no reincarnation because there is no spirit to carry the mind into another vehicle.
 

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Offline pencilhead

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #18 on: 30/01/2004 01:47:11 »
why would it go into another body?  It makes no sense
 

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Offline bezoar

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #19 on: 30/01/2004 02:09:36 »
I think the theory depends on a belief in a higher power.  As explained, we are all striving for perfection, only the higher power is also evolving.  I suppose the less evolved spirits are on some other planet or in some other dimension.  Being as I haven't been dead yet (that I can remember), I'm not sure.  I just think what's really funny to me is that most people who believe in reincarnation are convinced they're on their last incarnation here.  Kind of egotistical to think they're that perfect and have nothing to learn.  Christ said, in the Bible, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, you must be like Me.  Now, I don't know many people who are that good, and I don't guess and all loving God would send everyone to hell, so, the theory makes sense to me -- if you believe in God.  If not, then ya gotta find what works for you!
 

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Offline pencilhead

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #20 on: 30/01/2004 20:33:56 »
" As explained, we are all striving for perfection, only the higher power is also evolving. I suppose the less evolved spirits are on some other planet or in some other dimension"
Just an opinion of mine. *typing in a neutral state of mind*
Not all of us are striving for perfection.  The human being is living organism striving to stay alive.  After it has reached a comfort zone then we tend start to think abstractly and reason things out.  WE look at everything that doesn't make sense and try to make sense out of it.  We also create things that are useful to aid in our survival.  THE BRAIN IS POWERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
We can taste things that we tasted last week if we were in tune with our hidden memory capabilities.
 

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Offline bezoar

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #21 on: 30/01/2004 20:36:40 »
And maybe even remember lifetimes we had before.  How reliable is memory, after all?
 

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Offline pencilhead

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #22 on: 30/01/2004 20:51:25 »
it's very reliable and scary :0(  I wish someone made a pill or something by where we could take it and instantly remember EVERYTHING every detail to our past life.  whoa we would all be genuises.
I know a woman who has enough dedication to make such pill.  MY GIRLFRIEND DEVON!!! she's excellent. heheheheh I LOVE HER!
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #23 on: 31/01/2004 19:01:46 »
Well....if Reincarnation does exist...then I just wanna come back as myself !!.......or....let's just miss out the middleman death scenario and live forever, which, if reincarnation does exist is a form of immortality anyway eh ?.............
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Offline tweener

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #24 on: 02/02/2004 03:05:25 »
Maybe there is a group of mutant people that live forever, and they are pretending to be reincarnated just to mess with our (normal people's) minds and throw us off the trail of why they stay around.


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Offline Donnah

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #25 on: 04/02/2004 18:58:57 »
Okay Genegenie, I'm gonna back you up here.  I have no one take on reincarnation, I can think of several possibilities.

As a child, my parents laughed at my "imaginary" friend, Chief Wika.  When my son was little and watching Fred Penner (on TV) Fred's guest was a Cree chief.  I walked by as he was speaking a Cree dialect, and the hair on the back of my neck stood up; it sounded so familiar.  A few years later, I decided to narrow down my charitable donations to supporting three causes.  One was saving a piece of land on Vancouver Island from logging.  After receiving my donation, the WCWC sent me a flier with information about the land.  It was formerly governed by the Cree chief, Chief Wikaninnish.  Several years later I began to wake up and was very confused by a white wall appearing at my feet, after all, I was in the teepee enjoying the fire at my feet.  The thought crossed my mind that that's why my feet are frequently cold in this lifetime.  Prior to this dream I thought that Indians had slept with their sides to the fire, not their feet.  In the future I plan to go to the island and find out as much as I can about Chief Wikaninnish and discover if they really did sleep with their feet to the fire.

Any information about my favorite chief would be most appreciated, as would information from someone Native or well versed in native culture.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2004 19:02:35 by Donnah »
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Offline bezoar

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #26 on: 08/02/2004 15:08:35 »
Hey Donnah,
Played around on the net this morning, and found out that you spell the name Wickaninnish.  He was the most powerful chief on the west coast in the late 1700's, had a summer home on Echachis island, and apparently had contact with a Captain Barkley.  Was a member of the Clayoquot indian band.  There is a Wickaninnish Inn on Vancouver Island, and I noticed when I put in Wickaninnish, there is a person called Jo Wickaninnish, who may be a distant relative who could give some information.  Good Luck.
 

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Offline Donnah

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #27 on: 08/02/2004 23:17:02 »
Thanks Nancy, I found the Wikaninnish Lodge when I searched, and had heard by word of mouth that there was a Wickaninnish Inn, but had not tried any derivative spelling.  I'm only a 10 hour drive or a one hour flight from the Island, so that makes it a lot easier.  I'd like to see if I can find a place that I "remember".  It was on a small slope and was mainly treed.  "We" would camp at the edge of a clearing, and if you were standing at the bottom of the meadow, camp was at about eight o'clock.  That would likely be on Echachis Island.
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn

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Offline bezoar

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #28 on: 09/02/2004 00:54:19 »
Apparently there is a "shelf" on the island.  Maybe that's where you were.

There is an autobiography "The Remarkable World of Frances Barkley," Captain Barkleys' wife, who was only 17 when she was the first white woman to set foot on Vancouver Island.  Maybe the book will stir some memories for you.  

Also, check out:
http://www.northwestdiver.com/features/2003/0708-1.php.
Maybe you should be diving at Barkley sound.  Interesting that you just finished your diving course and the diving is so great there.  Coincidence?  Something's drawing you there.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2004 01:44:11 by bezoar »
 

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Offline genegenie

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #29 on: 09/02/2004 02:45:53 »
Interesting, Donnah! I wonder what you will experience/how you will feel when you eventually visit the island.

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Offline Donnah

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #30 on: 09/02/2004 03:43:51 »
I think you are right Bezoar, something's drawing me there.  Thanks for the link.  You need to take the period off the end for it to work.  Will definitely read Francis Barkley's book, but now I'm wondering if it would be better to read the book after I go there the first time.  We are traveling through the Yukon this summer, maybe we'll get to the island then.  I have a passion for whales, trees and horses.  I doubt that they had horses there at that time, but they sure had whales and trees.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2004 15:18:13 by Donnah »
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Offline neilep

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #31 on: 09/02/2004 20:31:03 »
Donnah...as a sceptic (with an opening mind) I just wanted to wish you luck...I have been reading yours and Nancys entries with great interest and I look forward to hearing the results of your visit. I really wish you well.  Neil.

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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Offline Donnah

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #32 on: 09/02/2004 22:24:58 »
Thanks Neil.  I'm very curious about this whole thing.  The mocassins I was wearing when I woke with my feet by the fire were tan color (naturally) and stitched with an overstitch.  Nice curved shape, nothing boxy about it.  Be interesting to see if they really did have footwear like that.
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn

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Offline tweener

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #33 on: 10/02/2004 23:26:45 »
I bet you can research the footwear styles of different tribes from your library or the internet.  As I understand it, each tribe had very distinctive styles of mocassins and decorations on their clothing.


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Offline Donnah

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #34 on: 11/02/2004 05:16:52 »
Well I've already found that the Nuu-cha-nulth had a belief, Hishuk ish ts'awalk, meaning everthing is one/connected.

If you check out "About Yourselves!" in the Chat section you can see on page one that that is very much in line with my current belief.
« Last Edit: 11/02/2004 05:21:15 by Donnah »
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn

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Offline nak-yokohama-japan

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #35 on: 25/02/2004 05:08:09 »
I opened a site titled [EVIDENCE OF LIFE AFTER DEATH !?].
See if you please.
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis/2561/
 

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Offline christianchick

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Re: REINCARNATION- what's it all about eh ?
« Reply #36 on: 26/03/2004 14:48:13 »
that's a very interesting comment, i understand what you are saying but to fully go along with you we have to believe in evolution, and if both of them were true then i will see you in my next life serving the APE king you evolved so quickly that he beat us humans out:)

but seriously i agree, it can't be so

I WILL RULE THE WORLD, so suck up now before its too late(ha ha ha ha ha)


Greetings in Christ Jesus my Lord[;)]
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