[CertainlyPOIS]

CC, welcome to the POIS Forum! I went to the website http://www.herballove.com/ and didn't see anything related to POIS problems. Can you point me to the right place on their website? Thank you!

ps - can you tell us more about your POIS experiences?

I noticed symptoms of pois when i started getting curious about why i am sometimes the most talkative in a group and other times i cant put in a word. When I noticed it was caused by ejaculation, i realized for about a week and half after ejaculation i had this symptons - extremely tired first two days, cant hold conversations, a kind of back burn that last a couple of days, lack of concentration, common sense questions become a problem for me, seriously bad memory, when it is really bad i cant even read a book without feeling that nothing is registering, and wanting to eat a lot for a couple of days.
 After the week and the half i get a very high boost of energy. During this period my memory comes back, socialization becomes all to easy, am not a good essay period, but during this period essay was not problem. I have timed may essays for these period.  This high energy last for couple of days and then i return back to normal.
However lately that cycle is not occuring.

I was wondering does weight add to this problem, because when i loose weight i tend to improve and when i gain it gets kinda worse.

[girlwind]

THE MARSHALL PROTOCOL IS A RISKY CHOICE. APPROACH IT WITH CAUTION.

The Marshall Protocol is VERY extreme and requires a multi-year regimen of low dose antibiotics, along with
an anti-hypertensive (Benicar), no Vitamin D, OR foods with Vitamin D... AND NO SUN EXPOSURE. People on
"the MP" are instructed to wear dark glasses and to carry umbrellas, in order to avoid even minimal sun ex-
posure. This is not just for a few weeks or months, but can be UP TO A FEW YEARS. Any side effects or health
problems that people encounter while on The MArshall Protocol are reduced by the MP-ers to what they call
"immunopathology," or a Herxheimer reaction (in other words a healing crisis). Though sometimes this can
be a valid call, the danger is when the Herxheimer reaction is used as a blanket rationalization to convince
patients that the protocol they are on could NOT POSSIBLY be the cause of any side effects they are suffering,
and that any side effects or health issues they have are ALL part of the "healing crisis."

In my research on the MP I found complaints made by people on other websites about some of the side effects
and setbacks they suffered with their health because of the protocol. I also found a woman who had been a
moderator on the MP website, who was BANNED FROM IT, just for questioning the protocol. IN her own words:
"I was banned because I expressed concern for a patient who had been vomiting three days, had elevated kidney
tests, and needed IV fluids. This patient's doctor had stated these things. When I encouraged this patient to
follow the doctor's directions, and that minocycline and Benicar both can affect kidney function, my post was
deleted.... When I protested the deletion of my cautionary message I was banned."
http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.med.diseases.lyme/2005-08/msg01797.html

That's the part of the MP that feels rather scarey. There have been complaints of a certain "cultish" quality
among the MP-ers, as they do not appreciate any skepticism or doubt about the protocol, despite the fact
that the protocol is in fact based on an UNPROVEN THEORY, and NOT a proven conclusive study. By doing the
protocol you will volunteering to be a guinea pig in that study. So it's best to approach it with much caution.
 
You can check out some of the risks at this website.
Risks are discussed here http://www.natmedtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1643   

[demografx]

girlwind, thank you very much for this MARSHALL PROTOCOL warning!

[digitalmac]

It is a big encouragement to find this thread. I've been following it for about a week and have read nearly every post over the past 54 pages.

I am a 20 year old male. About a year ago, I started experiencing somewhat random fatigue and extreme brain fog. Getting out of bed was becoming a struggle on certain days (even after a good nights rest). Only recently did I realize that it is not random. The symptoms always started the day after a nocturnal emission. They last 2-3 days then completely disappear by the 4th day. I've got no heath issues, and consider myself to be in reasonably healthy person.

I have experimented taking a Cortisol supplement called Isocourt. Certainly doesn't seem to have any affect during POIS, but does boost my energy after the POIS symptoms are over.

For those saying that it's a physiological issue, I say that it most certainly is not. I'm hoping that there is a relatively simple fix to this problem. Would be great to get a doctor to investigate this for us. Looking forward to becoming a part of this community and finding a cure!

[Dr. Matt]

The initial reaction from my post should be taken with extreme scepticism. I took the Marshall Protocol with the same scepticism and was too banned for suggesting using oral Vancomycin instead of metronidazole for the c. difficile that the antibiotics of the protocol caused one woman.

What I can tell you is, there is nothing wrong with most of us, the hormonal imbalances are caused by this infection, we all can successfully treat the symptoms, as I too have done, or we can get to the root of the problem and never have to take another thing.

Like I said, I only offer the truth - Morpheus


Those of you that are getting off of dairy, keep in mind that milk protien (casein) contributes heavily to neurotransmitter production. Make sure you suppliment with enough tyrosine and phenylalanine if you are no longer eating dairy products. (Tyrosine is phenylalanine with a hydroxl group on the 4th carbon of the aromatic ring).

Those of you that have had success with Garlic therapy, keep up the good work! This helps the immune system fight off the L-form bacteria. Please consider adding Vitamin C 500-1500mg three times a day (water soluable vitamin) to your treatment.

[demografx]

...the [POIS] hormonal imbalances are caused by this infection...

"Dr Matt", prove that POIS is caused by infection, state your credentials, and convince us you've actually studied POIS here or elsewhere or please don't bother posting your advertising here again or it will be deleted. Thank you.

[demografx]

digitalmac, welcome to The POIS Forum! Thank you very much for your contributed post, and I look forward to reading more about you in future posts.

[demografx]

For those saying that it's a physiological issue, I say that it most certainly is not.

digitalmac, then what do you think it is?

[Counterpoints]

Thanks demografx, I was going to write something similar.  How does "Dr. Matt" know anything about POIS?  Every physician I have talked to (and I have talked to many) has not heard of this problem.  It is rare.  Dr. Matt, how could you be so sure that this works against POIS without having done some extensive research on it?  Did someone come to you with POIS? Did you have POIS? 

Again, I think pretty much everyone missed the nuance in what I was suggesting in regards to psychological issues.  I wanted to emphasize the point that there isn't this big disconnection between the psychological and physical that most people think there is.  I get the sense girlwind agrees with this point (as does Coreman), as would most of you if you had seen the research behind it (which I would be happy to provide). 

I have this problem too -- and it affects me quite badly sometimes.  I want to get better, and I am doing what I can to help myself, and others too.

[Counterpoints]

Re: Immune system argument.

I don't think a weakened immune system is contributing to POIS, at least not with me.  First of all, it seems almost impossible that the immune system would weaken so profoundly following orgasm that we would feel such powerful symptoms immediately.  Secondly, orgasm is known to improve the immune system response, and I believe this is the case with me, despite the awful symptoms.  Many years ago, I would have orgasm only a couple times a month.  Every year I would get quite sick about three times, with some sort of flu; this happened consistently and for about 7 years.  When I began to have orgasm more often, I never got sick at all for years.  Given that I did not make any significant other changes, this seems like more than a coincidence.

I think this is a chemical problem.  Perhaps a problem with the adrenal glands.  I'm doing experiments that would test this (at least for me).  I am likely going to try the garlic after I finish these experiments (for the sake of figuring out what each remedy is specifically doing).  I was wondering how I could possibly eat whole gloves of garlic though! .  Thanks for the tip about chopping up + water.  I was thinking garlic pills might be the way to go, but then I wouldn't want to risk missing some sort of 'active ingredient'.

[poisONoUS]

Hey Dr. Matt,
I just wanted to raise a question about the L-form bacteria that might be causing POIS. It is an interesting theory, but I jsut feel that doesnt completely make sense. As you mentioned in your posting, the bacteria gets out of its latency state whenever our immune system goes down: after sex, stressing out, having a cold, etc. However, whenever I have a cold or a flu and my body is feeling very weak, how come this bacteria doesnt take any action? How come I dont feel the same symptoms that I would after orgasm? I definitely feel mentally and phisically weaker when I am sick, but it is not like my brain is fogged up. It is just tired... just like the rest of my body. It is not like it is any slower. The speed at which thoughts are going thru my head is pretty much the same as when I am not sick. As many of us have described in here, the feeling after POIS is something very unique, and it is hard to compare it to the feeling of being sick.

So again.. the question is: How come this bacteria doesnt take the opportunity to attack my body when I am sick? Why does it only happen after orgasm?

Thanks for your postings and the tip about the casey protein being lacked in the dairy diet.

[Counterpoints]

Reminder: questionnaire can be found at http://pois.olympe-network.com
Filling it out helps us better understand and formalize this problem.

Also: Many thanks to Martin88 for his technical assistance.  He found the olympe-network host.

[John21 (OP)]

Matt,

While we have a latent infection, keep in mind, its still an infection, we just go on living our lives with very few symptoms.. that is.. until we are stressed out, have sex or experience some sort of physical trauma

I can conceive that it might be a latent infection that emerges by some mechanism post sex, but stress or trauma most certainly have never initiated my POIS.

It is also quite peculiar how we seem to have such a wide variety of symptoms, mine were mainly of a mental nature, while I have never experienced fatigue issues like others have. Perhaps we have multiple bugs on the loose.

I am glad that I have something that is working for me, as I am not tempted to try this extreme experiment you are suggesting. I am curious to read the thoughts of this Trever Marshall, but obviously, depriving oneself of vitamins doesn't sound wise.

[neilep]

Can I just say that it's fantastic to see the solidarity of fellowship amongst the wonderful people here in this thread.

Demografx and everybody else does a wonderful job to investigate and continue the motivation to find a cure/treatment. Demografx is a fantastic moderator !

You are all extremely correct to treat any new information with skepticism and question everything...and do keep questioning !..This is of course how true results are found by asking and empirical research !

Hopefully Dr Matt will respond with some evidence not just of his findings but also his/her credentials. If Dr Matt is bonafide then he/she should not step away from the questions but relish the opportunity here to elaborate further.


Good on you all !!


Hugs


neil

[demografx]

Again, I think pretty much everyone missed the nuance in what I was suggesting in regards to psychological issues.

I may have missed it, too. Perhaps from too many years (decades actually!) of dead-end frustration chasing my tail with psychologists, psychiatrists and "spiritual guides". I'll try to be more open.

[demografx]

Can I just say that it's fantastic to see the solidarity of fellowship amongst the wonderful people here in this thread.

Demografx and everybody else does a wonderful job to investigate and continue the motivation to find a cure/treatment. Demografx is a fantastic moderator !

You are all extremely correct to treat any new information with skepticism and question everything...and do keep questioning !..This is of course how true results are found by asking and empirical research !

Hopefully Dr Matt will respond with some evidence not just of his findings but also his/her credentials. If Dr Matt is bonafide then he/she should not step away from the questions but relish the opportunity here to elaborate further.


Good on you all !!


Hugs


neil

THANKS MUCH, NEIL, FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT AND POSITIVE FEEDBACK!!!!

[Counterpoints]

No worries Demo. I completely relate to how you feel.  I'm fighting a battle with myself to try and be objective, and it's hard.  It's so annoying when someone just dismisses things that are really affecting you, when they obviously haven't given you a fair hearing, and hardly know anything about your particular situation. 

John: Your case and mine seem quite similar.  I do not have marked physical symptoms.  Just excruciating mental ones.  I get a horrible feeling of agony when I try to exert myself mentally, when symptomatic. I also have terrible difficulty expressing myself -- even simple thoughts.  And my speech is quite obviously interrupted, and quite frequently, by forgetting the names of even very simple words -- bench, mat, trunk, etc. I'm hoping the garlic will help and I will keep everyone posted.  Is there anything else you are trying?

CCconfucius: From the amount I am linking the form (http://pois.olympe-network.com), I'm guessing it is no surprise I recommend filling it out.  After you are finished, you are automatically given a link to other people's responses -- including their theories.  I would recommend printing some of these responses, and showing them to your Dr.

Also, you can look through the forum.  B_jim, amongst others, have some good thoughts on the potential cause of this problem.

Thank ewe Neil.

[Finally]

On The immune system theory: 
1. My lymphe nodes swell.  So wouldn't that be a symptom of my immune system going into high  gear?
2. With a shut down immune system  I would then be succeptable to various illnesss.  Other than POIS I hardly ever get anything.  During Flu season I will hand around those who have the FLU and haven't had it for years.  The last bad one was in 1991 and I know that I had a very busy schedule for a couple of weeks and would have avoided orgasm to have enough energy. overall fatigue probably contributed.  I had a mild case in 96 but I had ended a relationship and was in a very unsexual mode.  I had also just gotten over a prostate infection and had taken antibiotics.  Depression may have also contributed to them
3.Since I have benefitted in recovery process with Vitamins. Why would I delete them?  They don't seem be part of the problem> Plus Probotics help by increasing Gut bacteria.  Doses of antibiotics would kill the essential bacteria.  This seems similar to Chemo and Radiation for Cancer patients.  You need to get the Cancer cells so to kill them do mass destruction.  When totally desperate that may be the ony hope.  The alernative is death.
 Avoiding sunlght as well sound like a cure where you push your body to the brink of death so you come back but rhe bacteria may not.   

[post-chronic]

This is a delayed response about the psychosomatic discussion (it took a while to write).

It is generally but not always assumed that if something has a significant psychosocial factor, it therefore has a psychosocial solution and any bio-psychological abnormalities will mostly correct themselves. How Counterpoints defined psychosomatic sounds more specific (rather than broader) than girlwind's suggestion, because it mostly deals with brain chemistry. However, he also then makes a good point that non-psychological issues could be closely intertwined with psychosomatic symptoms. If POIS is psychosomatic in the sense that a psychiatric dysfunction/weakness is causing physical symptoms after sexual activity, it doesn't necessarily imply a primary psychological causation as such; the direction of causation is debatable even for "mental disorders" as they can be "neuropsychiatric". I generally agree with demografx's statement: "POIS is largely physical, and not psychologically rooted - ALTHOUGH early psychological trauma may have contributed to its early development." Any existing psychological factors (some of which have been expressed at this forum) are obviously a personal issue that varies between individual cases, and may or may not have an important role. However, we are now heading into a very grey area when trying to determine what role and what degree this plays a role.

I agree with girlwind's notion of psychological stresses having potential longterm damage that can spread outside the usual realm of biological psychiatry. Psychological stress and psychiatric illness are both associated with increased risk of developing a range of serious diseases, but research into the exact mechanisms has a long way to go. Whether or not this makes them "psychosomatic" depends on the definition used. Psychiatric illness itself often if not usually involves secondary physical symptoms, which only confuses the issue because the relationship isn't fully understood. The mind-body problem remains unsolved and the history of psychiatry itself seems to reveal a relatively poor accuracy on the issue.

Some interpretations of "psychosomatic" that I have come across include:
(a) people experience mental-emotional distress "as" physical symptoms (it somehow gets "converted");
(b) people confuse mental-emotional distress with the consequential physical symptoms because they can't tell the difference;
(c) people undergoing mental-emotional distress are "focusing too much" on "ordinary" physical symptoms;
(d) people's mental-emotional distress has "sensitized" their nervous system to physical sensations;
(e) people have a reduced tolerance and are simply complaining about "ordinary" physical sensations that everyone else accepts as normal;
(f) chronic mental-emotional distress causes a secondary disruption of biological systems, giving rise to chronic physical symptoms, especially under load;
(g) chronic mental-emotional distress is a catalyst for the development of other diseases.

The classification of an illness is difficult without knowing much about the mechanisms. Keeping in mind, both the terms "psychological" and "physical" have a broader context than some people may realise. Psychological factors are obviously mediated through biological mechanisms, while physical dysfunction doesn't necessarily mean "organic". I think that some answers will be found in psychoneuroimmunology, but there is some way to go yet. The medical profession seems just as confident as ever that essentially all (important) diseases have been discovered, and the tendency to over psychologise other peoples "medically unexplained" physical symptoms is probably just as common as it was in Freud's era, and yet we shouldn't overestimate the scientific understanding of "somatisation".

It is unlikely that POIS will be generally accepted as an actual disease any time soon, at best it might be viewed as a "functional somatic syndrome" or interpreted within a "biopsychosocial" framework, which generally means a psychiatric undertone and has been used synonymously with psychosomatic illnesses as a euphemism for them. Along with this comes the usual old arguments about being "stress induced" (it will go away once you're no longer psychologically stressed) or "belief based" (conditioning yourself to experiencing POIS), and your disagreement will be seen as a form of denial or evidence that you lack the insight to realise the "real" source of your problems.

Food for thought!

[girlwind]

Thank you Post-chronic, for your very well articulated thoughts. At least, we in the West have gotten
beyond illness viewed as "demonic possession." []  Or maybe we've just exchanged the term "demons"
for that of psycho-pathology.