[SteveD]

The 200 or so, who have posted, can be separated into about three distinct groups. The first group contains
very approximately 120 of the posters.  These people share about 10 notable mental symptoms (word finding difficulty, brain fog, ...), but have no severe physical symptoms.  The next group contains about 60 posters -- these people have the same mental symptoms as those in the first group, with additional physical symptoms. 

That's remarkable profiling information. Can you tell me what the 10 mental symptoms from the (60%)  first group are?
Is there a grouping, pattern or cluster to the physical symptoms experienced by the (30%) of the second group?

Steve,
My post on symptom groupings can be found here: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg200606#msg200606
Best regards.

Group 1 (Most Common Symptoms)
1.   brain fog
2.   intense withdrawal
3.   intense cravings
4.   difficulty communicating
5.   difficulty comprehending
6.   difficulty focusing
7.   thick-headed
8.   slow to respond
9.   absent mindedness
10.   short attention span (cannot concentrate for more than 2-3 minutes)
11.   anxiety
12.   poor short term memory
13.   lexical recall affected
14.   restless/agitated
15.   lack of creativity
16.   social phobia
17.   lack of confidence
18.   embarrassment
19.   mental exhaustion

Important notes: *  Symptoms generally last 6 to 70 hours.  Some do not recover as quickly during sleep as when they are awake. After 1-3 days of no orgasm, intense cravings for orgasm can re-appear, but the other symptoms do not re-surface unless stimulated by orgasm.  In a given month, people in this group are afflicted by symptoms between 10% and 90% of the time -- depending on the person, and frequency of orgasm. 


Group 2 (Less common)
1.   derealisation
2.   lethargy (physical fatigue)
3.   cold (day 1), sweats/heat (day 2)
4.   dizziness
5.   paleness
6.   shame
7.   skin conditions following orgasm. (e.g. dry skin).
8.   visual disturbances
9.   lack of spontaneity
10.   diarrhea (helped by low IG diet)
11.   hypoglycemia (helpd by low IG diet)
12.   muscle tremors and spasms.
13.   depression
14.   headache
15.   skin conditions
16.   insomnia
17.   hunger and thirst affected

From the first list I experience 100% of all the 'mental' symptoms as a result of Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS). From the second list I experience over 75% of the 'physical' symptoms as a result of POIS. That is conclusive, for me. What is of much greater interest to me is how stop it. To effectively do that, for me, I need to see what causes it. What I have observed in myself is there is graduated loss according to which particular behavior I engage in. The percentages are based on 18 years of documentation of this phenonmenon in myself and are, of course, approximated, based on my best estimate of how I felt afterward.

Developmental stages of Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome, for me…

                              Total % loss
1) openness to dating    2% loss
2) dating                      5% loss
3) arousal behavior      12% loss
4) genital contact          25%loss
5) orgasmic sexuality   95% loss

The question becomes, in my mind, " How much loss is acceptable?". Today I dated, nothing more. I experienced a 5% loss in my personal capabilities and that was acceptable today, for me.




 

[demografx]

...when I don't have to submit to routine and I don't have to work within a timed schedule with godforsaken deadlines, its much easier to bear POIS, obviously because there's alot less stress.  Of course the lack of cognition and the brain fog is still there, which is the most horrible part of this illness, at least for me.

Sounds like me. Lately though, lack of cognition/brain fog seems to melt into exhaustion/fatigue where I can't tell the difference. It now ALL feels like exhaustion.

[demografx]

Counterpoints,

I wrote a couple more posts to you the other day about POIS primary symptoms of physical/mental/emotional exhaustion/fatigue, as well as survey sample size concerns..

I'm not sure what your thinking is at this time.

Please let me know. Thanks.

ps - Not sure if you saw my posted reply to Pyro above: "Lately though, lack of cognition/brain fog seems to melt into exhaustion/fatigue where I can't tell the difference. It now ALL feels like exhaustion."

If others feel this way, it makes the job of symptom categorization a little more difficult!

[SteveD]

Spent 2 hours this morning in meditation. Revised percentages slightly. More importantly, for me, is I've been asking myself the question "What is it about me that would allow myself to be involved with the identified, itemized and quantifiedly self destructive behaviors, below, that, for me, cause Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome?"
I have some insight, but not conclusions, yet. I'm going to 'let go' of this for a while and get out in the day.

Good day to all...

                         
                    Total % loss
1) openness to dating    2% loss
2) dating                     5% loss
3) arousal behavior      10% loss
4) genital contact         20%loss
5) orgasmic sexuality   95% loss

[Counterpoints]

Counterpoints,

I wrote a couple more posts to you the other day about POIS primary symptoms of physical/mental/emotional exhaustion/fatigue, as well as survey sample size concerns..

Hi Demografx,
Sample size:  In this context, I think the importance of sample size is limited; the most notable benefit of a greater sample size, would be to offset the importance of symptoms posters have erroneously connected with orgasm. I am not trying to characterize every person in the world who may have post orgasm symptoms, but instead, trying to classify those who have come forward with their problems, so we can provide physicians with information, which will most benefit this specific group of people.  And within this group, we can make definite, and significant (from a common sense standpoint), claims.  For instance, if every person who comes forward says their post-orgasm problem causes them to have heart palpitations, then this would be important to whoever was trying to help this group -- whether it is comprised of 1 person or of 200 people. As far as the questionnaire vs. posts on the forum, there have been 25 responses to the questionnaire, and about 100 unique posters here.  Many of the posters here, however, have not clearly described their symptoms. (We often see 'I have this too', or 'My boyfriend has this and... etc').  I therefore believe the questionnaire is useful (but not perfect), even on its own, when trying to represent those who have come forward.

exhaustion:  The distinction between mental and physical exhaustion, amongst posters, would be worth further exploring.  POIS aside, when I'm physically exhausted, I'm also mentally exhausted.  I doubt someone could run a 40k marathon, and immediately afterwards, score well on a mental aptitude test.  The reverse isn't true as often, though.  For example, if I spend all day thinking at work, I may become mentally exhausted, but I would love to go out and have a run, or physically exert myself in some way.

So I'm curious.  When you listed exhaustion/fatigue as a symptom, is it the type of exhaustion you might get after not sleeping?  Can you tell the difference?  Is it like you might feel after a hard day of exercise?  Or of mental exertion?

When I'm "in-POIS", it's a very different feeling than any other experience I've had (e.g. lack of sleep).  It does not feel natural.  It feels as though I've taken some drug, which has caused my mind to become unclear, my anxiety to shoot upwards, my heart to go crazy, etc.

[John21 (OP)]

Demo,

Hi again, Martin. As I mentioned earlier, I think abstinence is eventually unhealthy for everyone. We are sexual beings. The length of time abstinent is the only variable.

Just curious, why do you think that abstinence is unhealthy? You say "eventually" so I presume you think that refraining from sex will over time do damage somehow. We are indeed sexual beings but I don't know of any way in which not "using it" could harm a person.

[demografx]

Sample size:  In this context, I think the importance of sample size is limited...

Fair enough, I trust your judgement.

exhaustion:  The distinction between mental and physical exhaustion, amongst posters, would be worth further exploring... 

Glad you feel that way.

When you listed exhaustion/fatigue as a symptom, is it the type of exhaustion you might get after not sleeping?  Can you tell the difference?  Is it like you might feel after a hard day of exercise?  Or of mental exertion?

I think you expressed it very well when you said: "When I'm "in-POIS", it's a very different feeling than any other experience I've had (e.g. lack of sleep).  It does not feel natural.  It feels as though I've taken some drug..."

Especially the "drug" analogy; that's how I've felt for years.

It's hard to put in words because of the uniqueness. Clarity is shot, motivation is gone, energy is certainly like a dead car battery: nothing starts. [] You're right, that has nothing to do with tiredness after a long run!

Thanks, CP, for taking the time to give this some thought.

[demografx]

Demo,

Hi again, Martin. As I mentioned earlier, I think abstinence is eventually unhealthy for everyone. We are sexual beings. The length of time abstinent is the only variable.

Just curious, why do you think that abstinence is unhealthy? You say "eventually" so I presume you think that refraining from sex will over time do damage somehow. We are indeed sexual beings but I don't know of any way in which not "using it" could harm a person.

Hi, John, great to see you back, I know you're busy, but I always love hearing from the "Founder" of this forum (NOTE to everyone: John was the very first, brave poster here! 2 years ago.)

Why eventual harm? Well, maybe I'm influenced by research studies that I've read as well as my own experience. For example, psychologist J.M. Prescott, in The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, found that societies forbidding premarital sex are plagued by acts of rage, and tend to have higher rates of crime and violence. He also found a link between sexual repression and aggression, insensitivity, criminal behavior, and a greater likelihood of killing and torturing enemies. Like any study, there could be some bias here, but it's not the only one I've seen.

Maybe more importantly, I haven't seen any evidence linking abstinence with positive mental health. Except for spiritual readings, which are just too subjective...for me.

And for decades suffering with the agonizing malady of POIS, I pursued many forms of abstinence, including spiritual/religious, but eventually the need to release was overwhelming and overpowering even though it was not welcome in my life because of - as I'm sure you understand - the dreaded inevitability of POIS!

Length of abstinence time is important. I'm sure that some people - for  many reasons - can stay abstinent for long periods of time. I just don't believe "forever" and happily. That is, unless there is some physiological or psychological problem which interrupts libido.

John, I know that I'm sticking my neck out here. I'm not an expert. I'm only speaking out because abstinence is a potential POIS "cure". I'm willing to be convinced the other way; maybe I just haven't yet found evidence of "healthy/happy celibacy".

But I think to get that conviction is more a matter of faith. And that I don't have because of my personal life experiences, which I would be glad to share with you in private, but not publicly. Nothing to hide, but it would become too "off topic" here. It has to do with my personal experiences with faith (ho-hum [])

John, thanks again for being here.

[John21 (OP)]

Why eventual harm? Well, maybe I'm influenced by research studies that I've read as well as my own experience. For example, psychologist J.M. Prescott, in The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, found that societies forbidding premarital sex are plagued by acts of rage, and tend to have higher rates of crime and violence. He also found a link between sexual repression and aggression, insensitivity, criminal behavior, and a greater likelihood of killing and torturing enemies. Like any study, there could be some bias here, but it's not the only one I've seen

What! He found that this was all due to refraining from sex?! It sounds more like the setting was a society where the religious beliefs were forced. I would agree that any society built on anything than free will would be disordered. But this does not indite chastity, but rather authoritarianism.

[underwater]

Comments re: Exhaustion/Fatigue   Abstinence & Celibacy

My POIS fatigue usually builds up over first 12 hours and slowly subsides after that.
The fatigue may be gone after 24 hours, but mild dizzyness, depression, irritability and not wanting to engage in creative or intellectual activities remain. The constant is a low, vibrational electric type feeling that drives me nuts with my body temperature seeming to change. Sweats too. However, with my current effort to end my underlying syndrome of anxiety, I will see if I can reduce the symptoms of POIS. I think if I can be successful finishing this GAD episode (now 19 months), I may have some momentum with respect to POIS. I hope to be free of GAD soon, as I am returning to my old self. I think some of those strategies will work for POIS. I need a little more time, and hopefully I can go a few more weeks without orgasm. Then I will see. And,of course, if my condition (POIS)is improved, I will dutifully report. By the way, GAD for me does come and go in these long cycles over the last 30 years.

As far as abstincenc/celibacy is concerned, I never have had issues with extended abstinence. My body may say otherwise and act on its own (100% of time), yet with the abstinence itself,I have no negative reactions. I can be just fine. I can go a few months easily.

[demografx]

Why eventual harm? Well, maybe I'm influenced by research studies that I've read as well as my own experience. For example, psychologist J.M. Prescott, in The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, found that societies forbidding premarital sex are plagued by acts of rage, and tend to have higher rates of crime and violence. He also found a link between sexual repression and aggression, insensitivity, criminal behavior, and a greater likelihood of killing and torturing enemies. Like any study, there could be some bias here, but it's not the only one I've seen

What! He found that this was all due to refraining from sex?! It sounds more like the setting was a society where the religious beliefs were forced. I would agree that any society built on anything than free will would be disordered. But this does not indite chastity, but rather authoritarianism.

Although there are many similar studies, you could be right.

[SteveD]

Demo,

Hi again, Martin. As I mentioned earlier, I think abstinence is eventually unhealthy for everyone. We are sexual beings. The length of time abstinent is the only variable.

Just curious, why do you think that abstinence is unhealthy? You say "eventually" so I presume you think that refraining from sex will over time do damage somehow. We are indeed sexual beings but I don't know of any way in which not "using it" could harm a person.

Hi, John, great to see you back, I know you're busy, but I always love hearing from the "Founder" of this forum (NOTE to everyone: John was the very first, brave poster here! 2 years ago.)
John, I know that I'm sticking my neck out here. I'm not an expert. I'm only speaking out because abstinence is a potential POIS "cure". I'm willing to be convinced the other way; maybe I just haven't yet found evidence of "healthy/happy celibacy".

Not my experience. I know one man with two decades of abstinence and one with four years short of a century and they are two of the most well adjusted, content human beings I know.

[demografx]

[Abstinent yet not well adjusted, not content per Demo:] Not my experience. I know one man with two decades of abstinence and one with four years short of a century and they are two of the most well adjusted, content human beings I know.

If that can be known from the outside.

[demografx]

As far as abstincenc/celibacy is concerned, I never have had issues with extended abstinence. My body may say otherwise and act on its own (100% of time), yet with the abstinence itself,I have no negative reactions. I can be just fine. I can go a few months easily.

You're a better man than me! []

(I can go about 6 weeks healthily)

[SteveD]

I'm only speaking out because abstinence is a potential POIS "cure".

That's a bold claim, and if it's true, then it seems sane to determine what the impediments are to pursuing that as an adjunctive therapy.

[demografx]

I'm only speaking out because abstinence is a potential POIS "cure".

That's a bold claim, and if it's true, then it seems sane to determine what the impediments are to pursuing that as an adjunctive therapy.

Maybe we're not looking at the same thing? Not bold claim at all. Simple fact, starting with Waldinger's patients. We all experience the "cure"! I'm just saying that when we are abstinent, we are not having orgasm(s), therefore no POIS.

Seems like you're saying the same thing: "what are the impediments?". Well, I can stay abstinent 6 weeks, others shorter, others longer.

It was a very simple statement. I really don't think it needs to be that complicated at all:

No orgasm = no POIS.

[underwater]

For me, POIS is a syndrome post orgasm, but so psychologically debilitating that it has become part of me. This means psychologically and physically. Its existence causes fear, anticipatory fear. Generally, after a short period of time (2-7 days), almost all symptoms of POIS are gone. However, POIS (as we have come to call "it") may have "lingering effects". These effects may be biochemical, psychological or a combination. I don't know. I have been thinking about this for 20 years (obviously before the name pois). Most of the time I tend to think of POIS as a discrete time frame syndrome. Sometimes I don't; this is because it is so darn bothersome and haunting. Soon for me (I'm extremely confident) POIS will again stand alone when my GAD is gone. This will be soon. Will my therapies to rid GAD seriously diminish my POIS? I seriously hope to be able to report soon, but I don't want to force it and will not. I have never ever had a conclusion of GAD (avg. time 2 years more or less) that corresponded to a serious, conscious focus on POIS. This is exciting. I pray it possible that my therapies to rid GAD will diminish POIS.

[SteveD]

I'm only speaking out because abstinence is a potential POIS "cure".

That's a bold claim, and if it's true, then it seems sane to determine what the impediments are to pursuing that as an adjunctive therapy.

We all experience the "cure"! I'm just saying that when we are abstinent, we are not having orgasm(s),therefore no POIS.
No orgasm = no POIS.

A guy goes into a doctor's office, holds up his right hand. "It hurts when I do this" The doctor says "Well, then don't do that ! javascript:void(0);

[demografx]

I'm only speaking out because abstinence is a potential POIS "cure".

That's a bold claim, and if it's true, then it seems sane to determine what the impediments are to pursuing that as an adjunctive therapy.

We all experience the "cure"! I'm just saying that when we are abstinent, we are not having orgasm(s),therefore no POIS.
No orgasm = no POIS.

A guy goes into a doctor's office, holds up his right hand. "It hurts when I do this" The doctor says "Well, then don't do that !

                       []        Good one, Steve

[demografx]

POIS DIARY

Day 1 of 10mg, 2 testosterone patches (per endo Rx), Day 5 of POIS misery winding down. Brutal POIS episode, fierce exhaustion, don't know why. Surprised that my faithful wife hasn't thrown me and my morose, sullen disposition outta the house! I hope it's not due to 6 weeks abstinence vs. less cycle time before now!