[Zer0]

ps - Nobody sells a Goose that lays Golden eggs.

Apart, of course, from successive British governments.

Could you kindly elaborate Please...
Any Evidence?

[Zer0]

Predictions are Actions!

Not necessarily. I've predicted increase of Tesla stock several times based on engineering reviews on YouTube, especially by Sandy Munro and Tony Seba. I took no action afterwards, and got no gain for my inaction.

Law of Supply vs Demand.
Economics 001.

Predicting increase in Value invites Higher demand.

As demand goes up, & supply is Limited n Not infinite, prices Rise.

Your Predictions were the Actions...
Hence,

Predictions are Actions!

You investing in or not in TSLA remains unaccounted for, out of the equation.

[alancalverd]

Could you kindly elaborate Please...
Any Evidence?

Gas, electricity, railways, the Post Office (both mail and telecoms), any "Public Private Initiative", the jet engine, North Sea oil and fish.....

[alancalverd]

I've defined consciousness as the capacity to achieve goals effectively and efficiently.

Which puts a spider several orders more conscious than any human.

[alancalverd]

What makes you think that future civilization won't be able to recycle resources effectively and efficiently?

So far, the evidence is that per capita production of nonrecyclable waste increases every year. It's called "economic growth" and is apparently essential to the wellbeing of politicians and the manufacturers of cosmetics.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

What makes you think that future civilization won't be able to recycle resources effectively and efficiently?

So far, the evidence is that per capita production of nonrecyclable waste increases every year. It's called "economic growth" and is apparently essential to the wellbeing of politicians and the manufacturers of cosmetics.

Why can't they be recycled?

How do you define economic growth? How important is it?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Predictions are Actions!

Not necessarily. I've predicted increase of Tesla stock several times based on engineering reviews on YouTube, especially by Sandy Munro and Tony Seba. I took no action afterwards, and got no gain for my inaction.

Law of Supply vs Demand.
Economics 001.

Predicting increase in Value invites Higher demand.

As demand goes up, & supply is Limited n Not infinite, prices Rise.

Your Predictions were the Actions...
Hence,

Predictions are Actions!

You investing in or not in TSLA remains unaccounted for, out of the equation.

Predictions alone without buying or selling bids remain unaccounted for, out of the equation.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I've defined consciousness as the capacity to achieve goals effectively and efficiently.

Which puts a spider several orders more conscious than any human.

How do you know its goals?
How do you know that it can achieve its goals effectively and efficiently, much more than humans?

[alancalverd]

Why can't they be recycled?

Because that requires uneconomic energy input. In principle you could pyrolyse all organic material, scrub the noxious halides for re-use, grow plants to reduce the CO2 to combustible carbon, and use that to reduce your scrap metals, but ΔS > 0 whatever you do, so you are just hastening the heat death of the universe.   

How do you define economic growth? How important is it?

You need to ask a politician. Nobody else knows or cares what it means, but they all vote for it.

[alancalverd]

How do you know its goals?
How do you know that it can achieve its goals effectively and efficiently, much more than humans?

Its apparent goal is to survive, grow, and populate the universe with spiders.  They have a very low quiescent power consumption (a spider can "hibernate" for several years if there's no food about, and can survive in a very oxygen-depleted atmosphere) and an extremely efficient reproductive process (eating the male post-coitus is a brilliant tactic for feeding the next generation) that generates hundreds of entirely self-sufficient offspring, they have certainly succeeded in populating every part of Earth's solid surface and reproducing under zero-g conditions with no complications.

The only unresolved question is whether web spiders can retain the ability to make a functional web over several zero-g generations, but if not, they will just have to rotate the spaceship a bit. That said, of course their  success on another planet depends on there being enough flying insects, so it is more likely that hunting spiders would succeed.     

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Its apparent goal is to survive, grow, and populate the universe with spiders. 

How will they manage to go to another planet? Do they even know what a planet is?

[alancalverd]

Like rats, fleas and cockroaches, spiders go wherever humans go. They have more sense than to care what a planet is.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Because that requires uneconomic energy input. In principle you could pyrolyse all organic material, scrub the noxious halides for re-use, grow plants to reduce the CO2 to combustible carbon, and use that to reduce your scrap metals, but ΔS > 0 whatever you do, so you are just hastening the heat death of the universe.   

Is it a physical limitation in principle, or is it just a practical limit?
Producing light from electricity was once uneconomical. BEV was once uneconomical.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Like rats, fleas and cockroaches, spiders go wherever humans go. They have more sense than to care what a planet is.

It makes them depend on humans to go to places where they can't survive at present.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Making space travels economical is an instrumental goal for building a multiplanetary civilization, which in turn is an instrumental goal to pass a well known great filter.

We can't expect this kind of achievement coming out of a country with small economic size. They can't afford to blow up several starships in the development phase.

Economic size determines how much resources can be allocated to achieve something beyond the basic daily necessities, like preparations for future threats. Space travelling capabilities are also necessary to defend the earthlings from asteroids or comets impact.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Let's make a thought experiment, where the earth is only occupied by a few wealthy human individuals. Everything they need to live happily can be easily fulfilled. Poverty doesn't exist.
Someday, they find out that a global catastrophic event is coming in a few years, say a comet on track to hit the earth has been detected. They can't do anything to avoid nor prevent it, since it requires much more resources than what they currently have.
Developing a rocket program big enough to deflect the comet would take decades, and it won't even be ready before the comet is expected to hit.

[alancalverd]

So what? It's happened before, and the universe survived, even if the dinosaurs didn't.

Homo "sapiens" is perfectly content to sacrifice 85,000,000 of the finest of its species for no reason whatever (see WWII) and continues to do so every day for the greater glory of a nonexistent deity,  along with eradicating various other species that get in the way of "economic expansion".

So not only would your extinction event be of no cosmic consequence,  humans would regard it as wholly acceptable.

[alancalverd]

It makes them depend on humans to go to places where they can't survive at present.

And when you enter tombs or places like Scott's Antarctic hut, you find spiders thriving long after all the humans have died.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

So what? It's happened before, and the universe survived, even if the dinosaurs didn't.

Homo "sapiens" is perfectly content to sacrifice 85,000,000 of the finest of its species for no reason whatever (see WWII) and continues to do so every day for the greater glory of a nonexistent deity,  along with eradicating various other species that get in the way of "economic expansion".

So not only would your extinction event be of no cosmic consequence,  humans would regard it as wholly acceptable.

Most of us (currently existing conscious beings) care about their successors.
Those who don't (especially less conscious ones) will be less likely to have their successors survive in the future.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

It makes them depend on humans to go to places where they can't survive at present.

And when you enter tombs or places like Scott's Antarctic hut, you find spiders thriving long after all the humans have died.

IMO, tardigrades are better at survival from extreme environment.
But humans are better at modifying their environment to be more livable for them. Some exceptions can be found, but they don't invalidate the general idea.