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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  4. Ebb and flow - the result of the rotation of the Earth and gyres

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Ebb and flow - the result of the rotation of the Earth and gyres

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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #280 on: 01/09/2018 15:40:21 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 01/09/2018 09:53:38
Please specify the answer.
1. How many times a day are earthquakes?
2. What is the applied earthquake hour.
3. Are there earthquakes, on the other side of the Earth, to form a second tidal hump?

Earthquakes don't cause tidal humps, but that doesn't matter because your original question was about tidal waves. If you weren't talking about tidal waves, then you should not have used that term. The difference has already been explained to you.
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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #281 on: 01/09/2018 17:41:37 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 18/08/2018 14:32:01
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 18/08/2018 14:14:16
In the Laptev Sea, the tide is well expressed, has the character of an irregular semidiurnal wave. A tidal wave enters, from the north and spreads to the shores, fading and deforming as they move towards them. The magnitude of the tide is usually small, mostly about 0.5 m. Only in the Khatanga Bay the sweep of tidal vibrations exceeds 2.0 m in syzygy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptev_Sea
How does the tidal wave move from the north pole to the south.
Who can constructively answer this question.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #282 on: 01/09/2018 17:54:26 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 01/09/2018 17:41:37
How does the tidal wave move from the north pole to the south.
Who can constructively answer this question.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 18/08/2018 14:50:18
Anyone who knows what the words mean.
If there is an earthquake at sea somewhere north of you then there will be a tidal wave from the north.
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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Rotating earth theory of two high tides a day
« Reply #283 on: 05/09/2018 07:06:54 »
Quote from: rmolnav on 15/05/2018 08:30:14
1.Long ago when I was a boy, I already realized that, e.g., strongest high tides were always at same time, and when full or new Moon, in Atlantic coast of Spain where I was in summer holiday.
2. And nowadays, just seeing the Moon in Madrid sky at a certain moment, I can tell how high is the tide at mentioned coast, and also if the tide coefficient is high or low, without any complicated maths or any additional information.
This is too much.
During the tide on the Spanish coast of the Atlantic Ocean, the Moon must hang over Europe.
But the Moon can hang over America, or anywhere.
Focusing on the moon, no one can determine the time of the tide.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2018 09:46:21 by Yusup Hizirov »
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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Rotating earth theory of two high tides a day
« Reply #284 on: 06/09/2018 09:46:37 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 05/09/2018 07:06:54
Quote from: rmolnav on 15/05/2018 08:30:14
1.Long ago when I was a boy, I already realized that, e.g., strongest high tides were always at same time, and when full or new Moon, in Atlantic coast of Spain where I was in summer holiday.
2. And nowadays, just seeing the Moon in Madrid sky at a certain moment, I can tell how high is the tide at mentioned coast, and also if the tide coefficient is high or low, without any complicated maths or any additional information.
This is too much.
During the tide on the Spanish coast of the Atlantic Ocean, the Moon must hang over Europe.
But the Moon can hang over America, or anywhere.
Focusing on the moon, no one can determine the time of the tide.
Who can answer this question.
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Offline The Spoon

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #285 on: 06/09/2018 12:46:39 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 06/09/2018 09:46:37
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 05/09/2018 07:06:54
Quote from: rmolnav on 15/05/2018 08:30:14
1.Long ago when I was a boy, I already realized that, e.g., strongest high tides were always at same time, and when full or new Moon, in Atlantic coast of Spain where I was in summer holiday.
2. And nowadays, just seeing the Moon in Madrid sky at a certain moment, I can tell how high is the tide at mentioned coast, and also if the tide coefficient is high or low, without any complicated maths or any additional information.
This is too much.
During the tide on the Spanish coast of the Atlantic Ocean, the Moon must hang over Europe.
But the Moon can hang over America, or anywhere.
Focusing on the moon, no one can determine the time of the tide.
Who can answer this question.
Probably somebody who believes the earth is flat...
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Offline rmolnav

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #286 on: 06/09/2018 19:19:15 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 05/09/2018 07:06:54
This is too much. During the tide on the Spanish coast of the Atlantic Ocean, the Moon must hang over Europe.
But the Moon can hang over America, or anywhere.
Focusing on the moon, no one can determine the time of the tide.
Rubbish!!
From Madrid, just looking at the moon, I can say many things about the tides on the Spanish coast of the Atlantic Ocean, such as:
1) Rising full moon (always at sun set): about an hour latter, spring low tides ...
2) Full moon at midnight (always at local meridian zenith): about an hour latter spring high tides ...
3) First day visible new moon app. at sun set (some 360/14 degrees eastwards from the sun: in app. 3 hours low tides.
4) Quarter moon (when "growing": not sure now about its correct name) at local meridian zenith (always app. at 18:00): high neap tide in about an hour ...
Is that "too much" ?? Not at all whatsoever !!
Please keep in mind the given figures come directly from my head ... It could be some time earlier or later, especially because of the gap between moon meridian and high tide meridian, due to the fast spinning of earth, which doesn´t allow the high tide bulge to catch up with sublunar meridian ...
Apart from that gap, also maximum and minimum tide size are one or two days after full/new moon exact day, and quarter moon exact day ...
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #287 on: 06/09/2018 19:23:33 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 05/09/2018 07:06:54
This is too much.
During the tide on the Spanish coast of the Atlantic Ocean, the Moon must hang over Europe.
But the Moon can hang over America, or anywhere.

The Moon can be over Europe or over America- but not at the same time.
High tide today is due at about 7pm in Washington DC local time. Local time is 5 hrs behind UK time so that's about 12 midnight UK time
And high tide is due at about 02:45 on the West coast of Spain. They are 1 hr ahead of us so that means it will be high tide 03:45 UK time
So, very roughly, and ignoring things like daylight saving time, the high tides on the opposite sides of the Atlantic are something like 4 hours apart.

So, (broadly) when the Moon is over New York, it's high tide there, and when the Moon is over Spain, it's high tide there.
The Earth rotates under the Moon
In the 4 hours or so time difference between high tide on the 2 sides of the ocean the world will rotate about 4/24 of a circle that's about 60 degrees.
The longitude of Washington is about 77 degrees West and that of the  Spanish coast is about 8 degrees West
So the difference is about 70 degrees.
Given the rough nature of the calculation, that's close enough to the expected value.

Why do you think this is a problem?
« Last Edit: 06/09/2018 19:36:04 by Bored chemist »
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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Rotating earth theory of two high tides a day
« Reply #288 on: 07/09/2018 07:01:51 »
Quote from: rmolnav on 15/05/2018 08:30:14
В ago when I was a boy, I already realized that, e.g., strongest high tides were always at same time, and when full or new Moon, in Atlantic coast of Spain where I was in summer holiday.
And nowadays, just seeing the Moon in Madrid sky at a certain moment, I can tell how high is the tide at mentioned coast, and also if the tide coefficient is high or low, without any complicated maths or any additional information.
Questions.
You tried to determine the height of the tides by conducting the moon and the sun, so the forecast will be more accurate.
2. On which coast of Spain you determined the height of the tide, you can find out what the speed of the current is.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2018 07:23:17 by Yusup Hizirov »
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Offline rmolnav

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #289 on: 07/09/2018 10:48:38 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 07/09/2018 07:01:51
Questions.
You tried to determine the height of the tides by conducting the moon and the sun, so the forecast will be more accurate.
2. On which coast of Spain you determined the height of the tide, you can find out what the speed of the current is.
1) Only moon location counts for whether there is a high or a low tide, or the intermediate hights ... Sun works independently, ALWAYS with its own high tidal effect app. an hour after noon and midnight ... Those sun-related effects, to be added to moon´s, are the main cause of actual oscillation of tide size.
 2) Yesterday we were talking about tides at Spain Atlantic cost, and particularly at Gulf of Cádiz. From Madrid there is a small additional delay, which I didn´t consider ... At Galitzian atlantic coast everything happens a little later ...
ALL THAT demonstrates moon (and sun) pull, and inertial centrifugal forces, are the real cause of global oceanic tides ...
Another thing is local effects, whirlpools, currents generated, etc.   
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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #290 on: 07/09/2018 11:24:44 »
The waters of the Bay of Cadiz rotate counter-clockwise, forming a huge whirlpool-gyroscope, which, precessing, reflects a tidal wave along the entire perimeter of the Bay of Cadiz.
A similar pattern of tides and tides is observed in all lakes, seas and oceans.

https://goo.gl/images/xQtQ7k
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кадисский_залив
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_current
« Last Edit: 08/09/2018 12:41:07 by Yusup Hizirov »
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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #291 on: 07/09/2018 15:05:46 »
The amplitude of the tides in the Bay of Cadiz depends on the strength of the eastern winds, in the north of the Gulf of Cadiz, the floods of the rivers, Guadalquivir, Guadiana, Odiel, Tinto and Guadal.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2018 15:08:54 by Yusup Hizirov »
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Offline opportunity

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #292 on: 07/09/2018 16:20:27 »
The winds are funnelled by the equatorial play.


I agree.


Yet some would argue all this feeds back, namely a greater condensation on the equatorial region creating greater rains and thus more wind activity "on" the equatorial rim "outwards".


« Last Edit: 07/09/2018 16:54:30 by opportunity »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #293 on: 07/09/2018 18:55:55 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 06/09/2018 19:23:33
Why do you think this is a problem?
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Offline rmolnav

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #294 on: 07/09/2018 19:05:34 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 07/09/2018 11:24:44
The waters of the Bay of Cadiz rotate counter-clockwise, forming a huge whirlpool-gyroscope, which, precessing, reflects a tidal wave along the entire perimeter of the Bay of Cadiz.
You may be right, but still you can check that in a few days (4 or 5) both at Cadiz and Huelva will have spring tides (full moon on the 10th), app. 2.5 hours after noon and midnight (because of the previously mentioned gaps), and with only some 5 min. difference ...
Moon (especially) and sun locations in our skies clearly are the paramount cause of tides ... 
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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #295 on: 07/09/2018 20:01:09 »
Quote from: rmolnav on 07/09/2018 19:05:34
Moon (especially) and sun locations in our skies clearly are the paramount cause of tides ... 

The amplitude of the tides in the Bay of Cadiz depends on the strength of the eastern winds, in the north of the Gulf of Cadiz, the floods of the rivers, Guadalquivir, Guadiana, Odiel, Tinto and Guadal.
And the role of the Moon is indirect, creating an uneven orbital velocity of the Earth.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #296 on: 08/09/2018 01:23:00 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 07/09/2018 20:01:09
creating an uneven orbital velocity of the Earth.
I think astronomers would have noticed.
Would you like to cite the evidence of this?
Alternatively, would you like to accept that you are simply wrong?
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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #297 on: 08/09/2018 03:45:36 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 08/09/2018 01:23:00
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 07/09/2018 20:01:09
creating an uneven orbital velocity of the Earth.
I think astronomers would have noticed.
Would you like to cite the evidence of this?
Alternatively, would you like to accept that you are simply wrong?
This question has already been answered, and it was noted as the best answer.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73127.msg542160#msg542160
I would like to hear the opinion of rmolnav.
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #298 on: 08/09/2018 06:33:57 »
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 08/09/2018 03:45:36
Quote from: Bored chemist on 08/09/2018 01:23:00
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 07/09/2018 20:01:09
creating an uneven orbital velocity of the Earth.
I think astronomers would have noticed.
Would you like to cite the evidence of this?
Alternatively, would you like to accept that you are simply wrong?
This question has already been answered, and it was noted as the best answer.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73127.msg542160#msg542160
I would like to hear the opinion of rmolnav.

It was only marked as best answer by yourself, no one else believes it.

Your whirlpool theory is seriously flawed and you have yet to provide an answer.

Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 18/08/2018 13:55:47
The length of the tidal wave depends on the diameter of the whirlpool. And the height of the tidal wave depends on the rotation speed of the whirlpool of the orbital velocity of the Earth, and the time of the tilting of the whirlpool (12 hours).
A = V1 • V2 / t
where: A is the amplitude of the tidal wave (precession angle).
V1 - rotation speed of the whirlpool.
V2 is the orbital velocity of the Earth.
t - the time of tilting of the whirlpool (12 hours).
The first problem with this formula is that it does not return an amplitude, it produces a number of square metres per second. That is clearly wrong.

Next problem involves timing:
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 18/08/2018 13:55:47
As is known, everything that rotates, including whirlpools, possess the property of a gyro (yule) to maintain the vertical position of the axis in space, regardless of the rotation of the Earth.
If you look at the Earth from the Sun, the whirlpools, rotating together with the Earth, turn over twice a day, due to which the whirlpools precess (swing by 1-2 degrees) and reflect the tidal wave around the entire perimeter of the whirlpool.
A rigid gyroscope on earth will indeed align itself to the sidereal day which is 4mins shorter than the solar day. However, that gives a number of problems for your theory.
Firstly, we know from observation that the main tide period is period is about 12hrs 25mins - half a lunar day - so two tides take 24hrs 50mins which is the average time for the Earth to rotate once relative to the Moon. This is a hugh difference from your difference of 4mins in 24hrs making your double tide period 23hrs 56mins.  Clearly your predictions can never work with this theory.

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Offline Yusup Hizirov (OP)

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Re: Tides is the result of the rotation of the Earth and whirlpools?
« Reply #299 on: 08/09/2018 07:46:03 »
Quote from: rmolnav on 07/09/2018 19:05:34
Quote from: Yusup Hizirov on 07/09/2018 11:24:44
The waters of the Bay of Cadiz rotate counter-clockwise, forming a huge whirlpool-gyroscope, which, precessing, reflects a tidal wave along the entire perimeter of the Bay of Cadiz.
You may be right
Do not be afraid to express your thoughts boldly, you are on the right track.
The amplitude of the tides in the Bay of Cadiz depends on the flow velocity in the north of the gulf, and the speed of the current depends on the wind speed.
During long-term western winds in the north of the Bay of Cádiz, the current velocity is significantly reduced, and tides may be absent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_current
« Last Edit: 08/09/2018 11:59:13 by Yusup Hizirov »
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