[Colin2B]

For Newton, day begins with sunrise.  But for Einstein day begins with ticking of clock. 

For both Newton and Einstein the day begins with sunrise. They will both agree with the time of that sunrise as shown by a clock at a particular location. Newton understood clocks, Einstein understood clocks, they would not disagree on any local measurements of time.

It is the rotation and revolution of the planet that decides time, but not your mechanical clocks which have to be set as such.

It is easy to confuse time with the means we use to measure its passing. The rotation of the planet is one way to measure the passage of time, clocks are another, oscillations of an atom another. None of these are time itself, just a way of measuring it.

If your watch dilates due to gravity or velocity it is your watch problem.  We have to work on how to correct or overcome this problem. 

Not so.
It isn’t just the watch, it is the intrinsic passage of time as measured from another location. This affects all ways of measuring time passing, including biological and chemical processes, atomic decay, etc.

If your watch dilates in strong gravity field what events you can count.

You can count any events you want, but if 2 people are in different gravitational potential they will disagree on the time between those events as measured on their own local clocks.

[pasala (OP)]

It is the rotation and revolution of the planet that decides time

I'm pretty sure that time would still pass just fine if Earth did not exist.

Kryptid, who can say or view it.

[pasala (OP)]

Mr colin2b
"Minkowski space is a combination of three dimensional Euclidean space and time into a four-dimensional manifold where the space time interval between any two events is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded"

It is of course different theory, past, present and future and i don't want to go much deep into that one.

As per General relativity, strong gravity dilates time.  It is an indication that there is strong gravity.  In other words watch is an instrument to check gravity at a place. 

Curved space time or gravity is permanent, as per our knowledge.  For an observer, i could not understand what event he can count.  We are taking snapshots to build a beautiful 4d space time.  We take space as nothing.  From nothing we are building curved space or gravity. 

When we talk about space time, it must tell what exactly is space and how it changes over period of time.  I don't think there is any such thing. 

In fact as per General relativity, all masses curves the space time around them.  But, there is no exact definition or say about this curvature.

To be frank, space time is simply an extension to Minkowski theory.

We knew that in our solar system, Sun is at the centre and all other planets are rotating and also going round the Sun.  As assumed by Newton, there is a force keeping, giving you gravity or weight on Earth is also keeping the planets in their orbit.  Curved space time is not giving any independence to planet.  The same medium spread in the space is controlling the curved space of the planet and in turn planet.

As assumed by Newton there is a medium spread within this space and controlling the planet.  Same medium is also within curved space giving you weight. 

There is every need to explore, what exactly is this medium and where from it is coming. 

Space is not empty.  Light is not travelling through empty space.  The medium is being curved by planets.  There fore light is moving through curved space.

Basically, it is surprise to see, Einstein taking time dilation, added additional dimension to space. 

It is your mechanical clocks, invented by you dilates.  If your clock is not working at certain places properly, go for correction or develop new one.

Einstein theories are incomplete and there is every need to improve them.

Yours
Psreddy   

[Kryptid]

It is your mechanical clocks, invented by you dilates.  If your clock is not working at certain places properly, go for correction or develop new one.

It's not a mechanical problem.

[pasala (OP)]

It is your mechanical clocks, invented by you dilates.  If your clock is not working at certain places properly, go for correction or develop new one.

It's not a mechanical problem.

Then, please expedite or give reasons there of.

[Kryptid]

Then, please expedite or give reasons there of.

Time itself flows more slowly for objects in strong gravitational fields and for objects travelling quickly (relative to another object, of course). Relativity predicts that all processes slow down, not just clocks.

[evan_au]

In fact as per General relativity, all masses curves the space time around them.  But, there is no exact definition or say about this curvature.

Einstein gave a very precise definition of this curvature in General Relativity.
Over the past century, General Relativity has been subjected to a battery of tests of increasing sensitivity and precision. And it it has come through all these tests with full marks. So, as far as we can measure today, Einstein's General Relativity is a very exact definition of the curvature of spacetime.

We knew that in our solar system, Sun is at the centre and all other planets are rotating and also going round the Sun.  As assumed by Newton, there is a force keeping, giving you gravity or weight on Earth is also keeping the planets in their orbit.  Curved space time is not giving any independence to planet.

Curved space means that a planet takes a geodesic through spacetime, which shows itself as an elliptical path in 3-Dimensional space, as predicted by Newton. Each planet takes an independent elliptical path through space, and any inhabitants on those planets feel the gravitational pull of the planet.
- Einstein's General Relativity works exceptionally well in our Solar System.
- In fact, Einstein's Relativity explains one factor that Newton's gravity can not: Over several centuries, the orbital orientation of the planet Mercury changes by a tiny amount. Einstein explained this as time dilation of the planet Mercury when it is closest to the Sun. The same effect has been seen in the much stronger gravitational field of the Taylor-Hulse Pulsar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Perihelion_precession_of_Mercury

Einstein theories are incomplete and there is every need to improve them.

Einstein was well aware that his theory was incomplete - it breaks down near black holes. He spent may years trying to resolve this problem, without success.
- Later, Steven Hawking made some progress towards resolving this conflict Relativity and Quantum theory, but it still breaks down near black holes.
- Other Quantum Gravity theorists are continuing this work...

[pasala (OP)]

    In fact as per General relativity, all masses curves the space time around them.  But, there is no exact definition or say about this curvature.

Einstein gave a very precise definition of this curvature in General Relativity.
Over the past century, General Relativity has been subjected to a battery of tests of increasing sensitivity and precision. And it it has come through all these tests with full marks. So, as far as we can measure today, Einstein's General Relativity is a very exact definition of the curvature of spacetime

Please have that definition of the curvature of spacetime.

[pasala (OP)]

Quote

    We knew that in our solar system, Sun is at the centre and all other planets are rotating and also going round the Sun.  As assumed by Newton, there is a force keeping, giving you gravity or weight on Earth is also keeping the planets in their orbit.  Curved space time is not giving any independence to planet.

Curved space means that a planet takes a geodesic through spacetime, which shows itself as an elliptical path in 3-Dimensional space, as predicted by Newton. Each planet takes an independent elliptical path through space, and any inhabitants on those planets feel the gravitational pull of the planet.

Well, anybody with a telescope can visualise such effects.  But light coming from other solar systems is not taking several curves or moving along with these paths.  In fact we are taking space as empty or nothing.

[pasala (OP)]

Quote

    Einstein theories are incomplete and there is every need to improve them.

Einstein was well aware that his theory was incomplete - it breaks down near black holes. He spent may years trying to resolve this problem, without success.

Not at the black holes, but at "what exactly is curved space time" itself.   

"Einstein theories are not ordinary", even i too accept the truth. 

Suppose you have entered the lab for a practical test, unless things are predefined what test you can conduct.

 If you have a telescope, very easily say that, since Moon is going round the Earth, Earth curved or distorted space time around it and moon is simply following the path. 

But i must say or define what exactly this curvature is and the possibility of, how it came into existence. 

Suppose if each planet curves the space time around them, why don't they they act independently and move accordingly.  They are moving in curved paths, but light moving in is not taking any curves.  So there are no curved paths.   

Sun at the centre and the planets are  rotating themselves and also going round the Sun.  Light is travelling or moving without bends, indicates that there are no curved paths except near the planet. 

So, here it must be clear, by what force visible or invisible, Sun is controlling the planets. 



 

[pasala (OP)]

"In the context of special relativity, time cannot be separated from the three dimensions of space, because the observed rate at which time passes for an object depends on the object's velocity relative to the observer. General relativity also provides an explanation of how gravitational fields can slow the passage of time for an object as seen by an observer outside the field".

Time dilates:
01  Due to gravity
02  Due to velocity

Basically time is not your watches, it is the rotation and revolution of planets and the movement of stars, at the best what we can count or say.  These mechanical watches are only an instrument, to read or count that one.  If these watches dilates, time never stops. 

[Colin2B]

Basically time is not your watches, it is the rotation and revolution of planets and the movement of stars, at the best what we can count or say. 

No, time is not the rotation and revolution of planets. It used to be how we measured time, not time itself.
Nowadays our atomic clocks are far more accurate than the planetary movements - which vary.
Please try to to understand the difference between time and the ways we measure time.
Time dilation has nothing to do with the accuracy or functioning of the clocks or watches, it is a fundamental difference in the measurement of time at 2 different locations.

[pasala (OP)]

Basically time is not your watches, it is the rotation and revolution of planets and the movement of stars, at the best what we can count or say. 

No, time is not the rotation and revolution of planets. It used to be how we measured time, not time itself.
Nowadays our atomic clocks are far more accurate than the planetary movements - which vary.
Please try to to understand the difference between time and the ways we measure time.
Time dilation has nothing to do with the accuracy or functioning of the clocks or watches, it is a fundamental difference in the measurement of time at 2 different locations.

Ok, if it dilates, your age will dilate, isn't it?

[pasala (OP)]

No, time is not the rotation and revolution of planets. It used to be how we measured time, not time itself.

Please remember, time and tide will not wait for your ticking of clock.

[Kryptid]

Ok, if it dilates, your age will dilate, isn't it?

Yes. Time dilation will cause two people to age at different rates if they are at different gravitational potentials or traveling at different velocities.

Please remember, time and tide will not wait for your ticking of clock.

What is that supposed to mean? The tides would be affected by time dilation every bit as much as a clock that is at the same location.

[pasala (OP)]

Quote

    We knew that in our solar system, Sun is at the centre and all other planets are rotating and also going round the Sun.  As assumed by Newton, there is a force keeping, giving you gravity or weight on Earth is also keeping the planets in their orbit.  Curved space time is not giving any independence to planet.

Curved space means that a planet takes a geodesic through spacetime, which shows itself as an elliptical path in 3-Dimensional space, as predicted by Newton. Each planet takes an independent elliptical path through space, and any inhabitants on those planets feel the gravitational pull of the planet.
- Einstein's General Relativity works exceptionally well in our Solar System.

Ok, evan_au,
> If you have a telescope, you can visualize these things very easily.
> I think there are no curved paths or predefined paths exists.
> In case, if it is so, light has to follow curved path while crossing each path
> Light bending helps us to understand that space time is curved near to the planets.
> Basic question is "what exactly is this curvature" and how masses curves the space time around them.
> Another important question is why should or what makes planets to follow geodesics and how sun is keeping them in perfect line.   

[pasala (OP)]

Quote

    Einstein theories are incomplete and there is every need to improve them.

Einstein was well aware that his theory was incomplete - it breaks down near black holes. He spent may years trying to resolve this problem, without success.
- Later, Steven Hawking made some progress towards resolving this conflict Relativity and Quantum theory, but it still breaks down near black holes.
- Other Quantum Gravity theorists are continuing this work

It is surprise to see:
> How black holes solves these problems
> I had gone by numbers of lectures, including great scholars, starts with space time, which is a mathematical model, as there are no answers or explanation of space time, moves to black holes.
> Now a days black holes are a centre of attraction. 
> It is true that even today "what exactly is gravity" is a big question.
> It is true that all masses curves the space time around them, but we don't know, "what exactly this curved space time consists of".
>  It is true that we are all discussing a lot on "space fabric".  But it is not clear what this space fabric is and how it came into existence.
>  It is true that telescope revolutionised our thinking.  Sun is at the centre and other planets are going round the Sun.  It clearly tells us that Sun is controlling other planets.
> Taking mathematical model of Einstein as base, we have to explore several things.
> Einstein theories breaks not at the black holes but at the space time itself.

[evan_au]

light coming from other solar systems is not taking several curves or moving along with these paths.

Light coming from distant galaxies is often bent by the presence of massive galaxies (or galaxy clusters) between the distant galaxy and us. This can produce rings, arcs ar multiple images.
See examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens

This is just a larger version of the bending of light by the Sun which was measured by Eddington in 1919. This confirmed the predictions of General Relativity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Deflection_of_light_by_the_Sun

Sun is controlling other planets.

It is true that the Sun's gravitational field affects the motion of the Earth, drawing it into an ellipse (as observed by Kepler, and explained by Newton)
- or, equivalently, distortion of spacetime by the Sun's mass draws the Earth's path into an ellipse
- only General Relativity is more accurate at describing this ellipse than Newton's version

Earth's orbital speed around the Sun is about 30 kilometers per second.
- But that is not the major influence on the Earth's path.
- The far greater mass of our galaxy produces an orbital speed of 230km/second around the center of our galaxy

The conclusion is that all mass deflects the path of any other mass (Newton & Einstein agree on this!).

Einstein theories breaks not at the black holes but at the space time itself

The Solar system exists in spacetime.
- Einstein's theories have proven amazingly accurate within the Solar System.
- Therefore, Einstein's theories do not break down in spacetime
- But Newton's theory does break down at the level of the Solar System (because it does not take spacetime into account).

[pasala (OP)]

Quote from: pasala

    light coming from other solar systems is not taking several curves or moving along with these paths.

Light coming from distant galaxies is often bent by the presence of massive galaxies (or galaxy clusters) between the distant galaxy and us. This can produce rings, arcs ar multiple images

I am talking about curved paths and you are talking about light bending at galaxies. 

[pasala (OP)]

Quote

    Einstein theories breaks not at the black holes but at the space time itself

The Solar system exists in spacetime.
- Einstein's theories have proven amazingly accurate within the Solar System.
- Therefore, Einstein's theories do not break down in spacetime
- But Newton's theory does break down at the level of the Solar System (because it does not take spacetime into account).

Ok, if it is not, tell me, what this 3 dimensional space time consists of.  For that "what exactly this space fabric is" and how masses curves the space time around them.