[pasala (OP)]

Spacetime is not curved by gravitons. There is a base space that is flat and continuous and made of the interval: [0,1). Then gravitons come and make images of points that are displaced relative to these intervals. This way we can also account for Electromagnetism curving spacetime, as well as the other forces.

Gravitons is only an imagination, that may exists or not.  It appears that you are having more computer knowledge.  When it is space or nothing what makes or how or where from gravitons  joins electromagnetism to curve space time.

It is true that base itself is wrong, we are building castle out of thin air. 

[talanum1]

We postulate that space emerges from a semi-continuous flat base-space. This base-space is constructed from [0,1) pieces as follows:

Using the Superimpose points operator: 𝐒 and the superimpose left out points operator: 𝐓 we construct images of the base space points and postulate that it is the relevant field that produces these images. For example, the graviton field produces images (usually called spacetime). We choose our origin at a left out point then:

gravity-spacetime =
 T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^0_(2n),2n+β^(^0)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^1)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^1)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^2_(2n),2n+β^(^2)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^3)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^3)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^4_(2n),2n+β^(^4)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^5)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^5)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^6_(2n),2n+β^(^6)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^7)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^7)_(2n+1))

where α^(^j)_(^i) and β^(^j)_i  are elements of (-∞,∞) and n can be the Planck length. Where 𝑺(n,n) contributes a point at x=n, y=n and T(m,m) contributes a left out point at x=m, y=m.

[Kryptid]

We postulate that space emerges from a semi-continuous flat base-space. This base-space is constructed from [0,1) pieces as follows:

Using the Superimpose points operator: 𝐒 and the superimpose left out points operator: 𝐓 we construct images of the base space points and postulate that it is the relevant field that produces these images. For example, the graviton field produces images (usually called spacetime). We choose our origin at a left out point then:

gravity-spacetime =
 T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^0_(2n),2n+β^(^0)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^1)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^1)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^2_(2n),2n+β^(^2)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^3)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^3)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^4_(2n),2n+β^(^4)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^5)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^5)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^6_(2n),2n+β^(^6)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^7)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^7)_(2n+1))

where α^(^j)_(^i) and β^(^j)_i  are elements of (-∞,∞) and n can be the Planck length. Where 𝑺(n,n) contributes a point at x=n, y=n and T(m,m) contributes a left out point at x=m, y=m.

Please don't hijack other people's threads with your own ideas.

[pasala (OP)]

SPACE TIME:
What bothers my mind is, about space time.  What exactly is this space time and how masses curves this empty space.  As per Minkowski space time is nothing or empty.  As per Einstein space time near to the masses is curved.  Gravitational lensing clearly tells us that curved space time near to the masses is not empty.

Of course it is not bending but curved space is dragging the light.  In other words curved space is not stationary, it is rotating and causing the mass to move.

We are building beautiful space taking snap shots of different events and stacking up them to give us a three dimensional space time.  Suppose if we take snap shots of Earth at the end of each quarter in a year at different places around the Earth, taking them as events and if we arrange them, we will get the feeling of three dimensional space time.

In ordinary space, a position is specified by three numbers, known as dimensions. In the Cartesian coordinate system, these are called x, y, and z. A position in spacetime is called an event, and requires four numbers to be specified: the three-dimensional location in space, plus the position in time.

Trampoline analogy:
“Consider a very large trampoline with nothing on the trampoline pad and trampoline pad remains flat and parallel to the ground. Now place a heavy bowling ball at the center of the trampoline pad. The center of the pad will sag downward. If we assume the analogy that the trampoline pad represents space-time, and the bowling ball a gravitating object, then the sagging of the trampoline represents the curvature of space time under the influence of gravity. We can now see that if we take a lighter ball, and place it at the edge of the trampoline pad, it will roll down toward the bowling ball. This attraction to the bowling ball is because the path toward the bowling ball through space is favorably curved”.

But is this picture right? Mariusz Wroblewski is skeptical, asking:
“I’d like somebody to finally acknowledge and admit that showing balls on a bed sheet doesn’t cut it as a picture of reality”.

I freely acknowledge and admit it. As ubiquitous as pictures of bent sheets or coordinate systems are, they aren’t exactly reflective of the reality we inhabit.

If you’ve ever seen a picture of a bent, two-dimensional grid with masses on it representing space, you’ll know this type of illustration is extremely common. It appears to depict the fabric of space as being curved by the presence of mass, and therefore, any other particle traveling along this fabric will have its path bent towards this gravitational source. But what would such a picture actually imply? If space is like a fabric, how does mass curve it?
Gravity simply is, and it’s merely that the equations that describe General Relativity are geometric in nature. The idea that mass-and-energy curves space can be right,.

The presence of matter and energy curved the very fabric of this spacetime, and that curved spacetime, in turn, dictated how matter moved.

Ok, let us imagine that: there are two key players, matter and energy.  If the space is empty, how mass curved, or where from the energy is coming, source.  In case if the source is mass itself, it will be different story. 

The big question that bothers my mind, how a 2d space, when mass is placed converted into 3d space.  3d space implies that there is something, what is that?. 

Maths is not everything, it is only an instrument or aid to help, have a better visualization of what you have said. 

Yours
Psreddy

[pasala (OP)]

HOW GRAVITY WORKS:
Trampoline analogy:
“Consider a very large trampoline with nothing on the trampoline pad and trampoline pad remains flat and parallel to the ground. Now place a heavy bowling ball at the center of the trampoline pad. The center of the pad will sag downward. If we assume the analogy that the trampoline pad represents space-time, and the bowling ball a gravitating object, then the sagging of the trampoline represents the curvature of space time under the influence of gravity. We can now see that if we take a lighter ball, and place it at the edge of the trampoline pad, it will roll down toward the bowling ball. This attraction to the bowling ball is because the path toward the bowling ball through space is favorably curved”.

If any body asks you, how gravity works, this is the best answer one could say or tell. As per Einstein if we place any mass anywhere in the universe it will curve the space time around it.

It is true that all the masses, here on earth curves the space time around them. 
There are several questions that hangs in our mind.
→ How all masses curves the space time around them
→ How or is it the internal space time of the mass that alters the space time around them.  .
→ If there is no something in the outside, empty space, how masses curves or alters the outside space time.
→ From the thought experiments, it is proved that something is moving in the closed elevator.  When the elevator moves up something is moving in opposite direction, causing or giving you additional weight.
→ So, it is clear that there is something in our space time and mass alters it.
→ Same medium that is present here on Earth, giving you weight is also present in the outside space time.
→ This medium is working as fabric.
→ If mass curves the space time, it is an indication that space time is not empty.

Yours
Psreddy

[pasala (OP)]

Suppose if Sun stops rotating what happens to other planets?
....how this curved space time or gravity tells or influences or drags mass.

It is true that there is an effect called "Frame Dragging", predicted by Einstein's relativity.
- It is an extremely subtle effect, and was only demonstrated in delicate satellite experiments in the past 10 years - and then only to a fairly rough approximation.
- If the Sun stopped spinning, the frame-dragging effect of the Sun would cease, and this would have a tiny effect on the orbit of Mercury, only observable over centuries.
- It would have almost no effect on the Earth

The Frame Dragging effect is thought to be a significant factor in the relativistic jets produced by supermassive black holes at the center of quasars.
- But the effect is negligible for an object like the Sun.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging

"In general relativity , a mass’s rotation influences the motion of objects in its neighbourhood. Put simply, the rotating mass “drags along” spacetime in the vicinity".

Ok, for an observer within gravity field feels that there is no light bending at all and light is moving in straight line.  But for an observer staying on other planets there is light bending.

Similarly, everything including planets are moving.  Suppose there is a satellite in the space, it is moving, earth is moving everything is moving.  As per our knowledge goes, every object in our solar system is moving. 

Ok, there are two objects in the space, one is moving and the other is not. In such case the moving object can influence the stationary object.  If both are moving in same line and length, what influence or how it drags the others frame.

Well, surprisingly it is the Sun, which is dragging every object in our solar system.  No planet is having the quality of "inertia", it's all due to Sun.

Sun is at the centre, rotating and dragging the frame of every other object.

Suppose, if Sun stops rotating, "frame dragging" becomes zero.  All other planets stops rotating and comes to stationary position.

 Yours
Psreddy

[Kryptid]

All other planets stops rotating and comes to stationary position.

No, not at all. As a matter of fact, we know of a star that has planets rotating in the opposite direction of the star's spin.

[pasala (OP)]

All other planets stops rotating and comes to stationary position.

No, not at all. As a matter of fact, we know of a star that has planets rotating in the opposite direction of the star's spin.

It's an exceptional one, not normal. 
Basic question is:
 -  If star rotates other planets also rotates,
 -  Do, any example, where planets rotate when star is at rest or stationary.

Newton's gravity it basic one.  Where as, Einstein theories are complete departure from this.  His theories, GR and thought experiments are extra-ordinary.  However his theories are incomplete and unfinished agenda.  They are to be taken up further.  Black holes are not near to us and any practical experiment is almost impossible to us.  Any discussion, simply an imagination only, about formation, event horizon, light escaping, death of a black hole. 

It is true that we are in a strong gravity field and it is influencing everything, our activities, nature. 

It is true that:
-  As imagined by Einstein:
   a)  It is proved and known fact that when the elevator is lifted or moved, something within the cabin is moving.
   b)  If the elevator is lifted, additional gravity or concentration of gravity at the bottom is increasing, resulting in additional
        gravity at the bottom. 
   c)  If weight is the criteria to measure gravity, what else is the proof.
   d)  It is also true that if the elevator is lifted, something within the elevator is moving and it is bending light.  If not gravity,
        what is moving or influencing light.

Ok, leaving aside other things:

a)  It is true that cabin of the space ship is packed within gravity field only.
b)  Before packing cabin, Mr. X's weight is 75 Kgs only.  Even after packing also, Mr.X weight is 75 Kgs only and there is no change in his weight.
c)  To think or to say that Engine of the space ship influences or create gravity, there is no change in the gravity or weight of Mr.X.
d)  It gives us clear idea that Gravity is a "FIELD" present on the surface of the Earth.
e)  It can be packed and moved.
f)  Further, if the engine shuts, it is not vanishing or diminishing suddenly.
g)  So, it is having another important quality of moving from high to low.

Ok,  Kryptid:
What else proof is needed to say that gravity is a field present on the surface of the Earth.  If we say that it is not appearing or could not detect it, it is our incapacity.

Minsowski space time is like running, when we are not in a position to stand or walk, how can we run. 

Yours
Psreddy

[Kryptid]

Do, any example, where planets rotate when star is at rest or stationary.

You are exceedingly unlikely to find a star that doesn't rotate at least a little bit.

I don't know how the rest of your post is supposed to address what I said. The rotation of the Sun is not what causes planets to orbit it. If you could somehow stop the Sun from rotating, the planets would keep on going as usual.

[pasala (OP)]

Mr Kryptid,
Well, it is surprise to see how a mass curves the space time around them and what exactly is this curvature.

Ok, let us  presume that each mass curves the space time around them as assumed by Einstein. If a planet curves space time anywhere in the universe, why planets are existing or found in solar systems only.    In outer space they are turning out as asteroids.  These asteroids can curve the space time within solar system only.    Unless a star such as Sun curves or distorts space time no planet can curve or distort, locally.  Space, curved or distorted by a star is not empty, there is something. 

Newton's inverse square law is basic, simply tells that there is gravity and it gives weight on Earth and  it is keeping planets in their position.  But there is no explanation, how or in what way.  Newton also assumed that there is  something, medium. 

By the time of Einstein science developed a lot.  Beyond that he had done excellent work.  Great idea, first occurred to Einstein, when he looked out a window at the patent office and saw some construction workers on a nearby building, realizing that if one were to fall through a great distance, one would not feel the force of gravity while one was falling.   

Really, amazingly, it is a great idea.  Since planets are in inertia, he linked it to everything. 

"FREE FALL" idea is good, but it may not be correct everywhere.  Ok, here on Earth, gravity, as per our knowledge or present thinking, flowing towards the centre of the Earth.
 
First of all we have to remember that gravity itself is giving you free fall.  Gravity itself is causing you to come down to the Earth.

1)  If there is no gravity, there is no free fall at all.
2) So, gravity is causing planets to move, not that planets themselves in free fall in gravity field.
3)  If there is no stress, energy, momentum in space, there is no free fall at all.
4)  All the planets will remain then and there.
5)  Free fall is not escaping gravity but caused by gravity itself.

As per General relativity, curvature is nothing but stress, energy, momentum.  But it is not clear the source of this energy, stress, and momentum.   

As per General relativity Sun curved or distorted space time up to the end of our solar system and planets fly freely in this curved or distorted space time.   It is curved space time or gravity, causing planet to move. .     

Here Newton's 2nd law comes into role  "which states that the net force acting on a body is equal to that body's (inertial) mass multiplied by its acceleration".

All the stars, newly born, initially curves the space time around them.  But they don't rotate against their axis. It is, as per Newton, a medium, and it is curved space, i.e., energy, stress, momentum variations that causes the star to rotate against its axis.

Yours
Psreddy

[Kryptid]

why planets are existing or found in solar systems only.

That's part of what defines a planet. It must be orbiting a star by the current IAU definition. If it's a "rogue planet" that is travelling freely through space, then it technically isn't a planet under the current IAU definition.

Unless a star such as Sun curves or distorts space time no planet can curve or distort, locally. 

No. The Earth would still have gravity even if the Sun wasn't there.

[pasala (OP)]

why planets are existing or found in solar systems only.

That's part of what defines a planet. It must be orbiting a star by the current IAU definition. If it's a "rogue planet" that is travelling freely through space, then it technically isn't a planet under the current IAU definition.

Unless a star such as Sun curves or distorts space time no planet can curve or distort, locally.

No. The Earth would still have gravity even if the Sun wasn't there.

Mr Kryptid
IAF definition is only an information and it never tells us why or how a planet is good one and how it turns out into bad one.

General relativity tells us that any mass can curve the space time anywhere in the universe.  But it did not tell us how a planet curves the space time or what exactly this curved space time consists of.

If a planet curves the space time in a solar system, there must be something, which helps or aids in conversion of 2d to 3d space time.

Another big question is, why should these planets are in horizontal way.  Why not these planets in vertical.  This is the reason, we are taking trampoline analogy as best example. 

I am sure, there is every need to discuss a lot on this subject.
Yours
Psreddy

[pasala (OP)]

Quote from: pasala on 07/03/2021 16:34:15

    Unless a star such as Sun curves or distorts space time no planet can curve or distort, locally.


No. The Earth would still have gravity even if the Sun wasn't there.

If space time is not curved or distorted by Sun, where is the shortest path or geodesics for Earth.  In the absence of curved space time by the Sun, we don't know whether Earth curves the space time or not, for that we are not aware what exactly is this curved space time, it is a million dollar question. 

[pasala (OP)]

Ok, let us re-visit Newton’s gravity, idea:

“After dinner, the weather being warm, we went into the garden and drank thea, under the shade of some apple trees…he told me, he was just in the same situation, as when formerly, the notion of gravitation came into his mind. It was occasion’d by the fall of an apple, as he sat in contemplative mood. Why should that apple always descend perpendicularly to the ground, thought he to himself…”

Basic question is:
01  Why don’t the apple remain then and there in the tree.
02  What made the apple to come down to the Earth.

These questions paved the way for Gravity.  That is right. 

About free fall:
“Great idea first occurred to Einstein, when he looked out a window at the patent office and saw some construction workers on a nearby building, realizing that if one were to fall through a great distance, one would not feel the force of gravity while one was falling”.

01  It is true that the worker is in strong gravity field.
02  If he start falling to the ground, he will not feel  gravity.

Both are great ideas.  But …..
01  If both apple and worker are at height, there is gravity.
02  As per Newton and Einstein, gravity is causing apple and worker to come down to the Earth.
03  What Einstein says, if the worker start coming down to the Earth, he will not feel gravity.

But it is the gravity, causing the apple to come down to the Earth.  If there is no gravity the apple will remain at the apple tree only.

So, finally ….
“if there is no gravity, there is no free fall at all”.

“Whether planets follow geodesics or not, they are at inertia, due to gravity”.

If there is no gravity, all the planets, like apple, will remain then and there.

Let us take the discussion further.

Yours
Psreddy 

[Kryptid]

If there is no gravity, all the planets, like apple, will remain then and there.

Without gravity, there wouldn't be any planets.

[pasala (OP)]

If there is no gravity, all the planets, like apple, will remain then and there.

Without gravity, there wouldn't be any planets.

Ok, Kryptid, you are 100% correct.
But subject is about free fall.
As per Newton, it is due to gravity that apple is coming down to the Earth.  If there is no gravity, the apple will not come down to the Earth and will remain at the tree only.

But as per Einstein, apple is coming to the ground and it is at free fall.In other words, during free fall, there is no gravity at all.

Here, we have to remember one important point that "if there is no gravity, there is no free fall".

Both are interlinked to each other. 

All the planets including Sun are at free fall or inertia due to gravity only.  Here, Newtons 2nd law applies.
 

[pasala (OP)]

FREE FALL:
I think this is an important subject in deciding “what exactly is gravity”.

Ok, let us take astronauts on the international space station.  They are along with space station are in weightlessness condition. The space station is not in earth’s gravitational field.   At that particular altitude, the pull of the gravitational force is still 90 per cent as strong as on the earth’s surface. The astronauts’ weigtlessness is due to the fact that, along with their station, they are in free fall. Not in the kind of free fall that takes them directly towards the earth, but in free fall that takes them around the earth – in earth orbit.

On Earth’s surface where there is strong gravity, as per Newton the apple is coming down to the ground due to the force of gravity. 

But as per Einstein, while coming down to the Earth, the apple is in free fall and it is a co-mover along with gravity.

01  Here this is an important point. 
02  If there is no force or pressure, the apple will remain at that exact place.
03  It is here, gravity is exerting pressure on the apple and keeping it in free fall.
04  At any particular place, if the pressure/ force of gravity stops, apple also stays at that place.
05  Free fall doesn’t mean absence of gravity. 
06  There is gravity and it is the gravity taking you down.
07  International space station and the astronauts are also experiencing 90 percent gravity.  But they are in free fall.
08  It signifies that gravity field is moving in the space.
09  Gravity field in the solar system is not at rest or stationary.  It is moving. 
10  While moving, it is dragging the planets, everything.
11  Free fall is nothing but, on Earth's surface, gravity takes you down, on space it takes or moves you according to its flow, whether it is geodesics or not.
12  Free fall is not absence of gravity, but moving according to gravity.

Yours
Psreddy

[Kryptid]

The space station is not in earth’s gravitational field.

Yes, it is. If it wasn't, it couldn't be in orbit.

[Petrochemicals]

Basic

Isn't everything in everything else's gravity field? Ie to infinity?

[pasala (OP)]

METHOD OF “FREE FALL” / HOW GRAVITY WORKS:

Weightlessness poses a similar problem. Imagine you’re floating freely inside the elevator. Around you, other objects are floating, as well, and you feel totally weightless. Does that mean you are far away from all gravitational influences, far away from all stars, planets and other massive bodies, somewhere in deep space?

Einstein rightly deducted the above idea.  In free fall, objects  do not experience being accelerated downward, rather weightlessness and no acceleration.

It is true that International Space Station (ISS) and the crew are not in the Earth’s gravitational field and at that altitude still there is 90 per cent gravity. The astronauts’ weigtlessness is due to the fact that, along with their station, they are in free fall. Not in the kind of free fall that takes them directly towards the earth, but in free fall that takes them around the earth – in earth’s orbit.

Suppose, the apple is in the tree and it is under the strong influence of gravity.  If the apple start coming to the ground, it is in free fall, there is no weight but there is acceleration.  Ok, let us take Earth, it is in free fall around Sun.  It is moving in the curved path created by Sun.

As per Einstein, free fall is nothing but weightlessness and no acceleration.  But there is acceleration and it is due to gravity only.  At the same Newton theory is not correct since the object is in weightlessness. 

01  It is true that every object curves the space time around them and apple is no exception to this.  It also curves the space time around it.
02  It is in the strong Gravity field of Earth.
03  As per General relativity, gravity is a “spatial flow” and the apple is coming in its way.
04   Ok, apple also curved or distorted space time around it.  As per General relativity something is flowing towards the centre of the Earth and its exact details are not known.
05  I had termed this spatial flow as “Gravity field”. 
06  Spatial flow while moving down creates pressure / force against apple also.
07  Unless there is change in the elevator, moves up, down there is no impact at all.  If the elevator moves up, something is moving down, nothing but gravity field and it pushes you down.
08  Spatial flow, while moving down, flows along with the curved space of the apple.  While moving down it creates pressure or drags the apple.
09  Here there is no direct impact.  It is the curved space which plays key role.  For example, let us take two objects, bowling ball and apple.  Though both curves the space time, it all depends on the mass of the object.  So, the more the mass of an object, the influence of gravity is higher.
10 This is the reason, if two objects, let us take bowling ball and apple, if dropped from a vacuum chamber, fall to the ground at the same rate.
11  While creating vacuum, we are removing air, along with the air, gravity field is also moving out.  In the absence of gravity field, both bowling ball and the apple, cannot curve or distort space time, even if, it is far limited.  Gravity or spatial flow while passing through them, moves out without creating pressure.
12  In the case of planets also, they curve the space time around them.  The gravity field present in the solar system is not at rest and it is moving.  While moving, it is creating pressure / force on the curved space of the planet, in fact it flows in geodesics, drags the planet.
13  I have been repeatedly saying that “inertia” is not correct and the planets are not moving freely as such.

Yours
Psreddy