[Jolly2]

According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?

I never said that.

That exactly what you did. I suggested speculativily that mis-labling of covid19 deaths as something else by doctors, could be an answer as to why if covid19 was present in spain in March 2019 it went unnoticed.

You claimed it impossible. I made a speculative statement about doctor mislabeling deaths. You made a definitive one, claiming it impossible.

Try and change the topic and get things lost in the weeds I'll call you back.

Ok justify your assumptions.

Covid kills people .
I really don't think I need to justify that but, if you insist, check worldometer or something.
.

Whoever suggested there was a mutation at the same time in Spain and China?

You, implicitly.

Which is an absolute falsehood.  What happens in your imagination maybe sometimes should stay there.

The suggestion is directly yours and not mine.

You don't seem to understand that.

But they are not the same there are atleast 5 different strains. And the virus in China and Spain are different strains.

The cool thing about molecular biology is that it tells you the evolution of those strains, and roughly when the different strains appeared.
So, all you need to do is show the proof of your original claim.

Here is the problem, I made no claims, I speculated, as to different possibilities to explain a low death count when covid19 could have been in Spain earlier then we previously thought. So there are no claims to facts, I made statements, just speculative statements expressing ideas and explorations of possibilities.

Honestly I think the troll is you.

I had a look through those pages, and I think you sent me on a wild goose chase as part of your trolling.

Speak for yourself.

I couldn't see anything there that said that hypersensitivity reactions were a cause of a second wave.

cause of a second wave? Wow where did that come from? When  was it ever suggested that hypersensitivity caused a second wave?

Honestly do people just generally miss these word games you play to try and trap people?

My suggestion was hypersensitivity causing a greater dead count in a second wave(which 2020 could be if covid19 was present in Spain in March 2019 as a first wave.)
Ergo possible answer for lower/mis diagnosed death count in the first wave of 2019 and higher death count in the secound wave of 2020.

It was never suggested that hypersensitivity could be the cause of a second wave.

But ofcourse that's the sad kind of trick you are trying to play. Still makes me smile... better luck with the next one.

Cause of a secound wave

They just make a bad disease worse.
Which, in turn, makes your idea that this deadly , contagious  virus was in Barcelona,

Not my idea mr chemist, it was published as part of a spainsh study. As I said if proven true, you'll just have to deal with that fact, won't you.

but didn't kill people like it "usually" does even less likely.

Well speculation aside if it was in Spain in March 2019 and there is no huge death count, we'll have to find out why. You know some of my suggestions as to possible reasons

If there's anything in those pages which actually explains that a second wave was more lethal because of hypersensitivity effects, could you point it out please?

It was directly addressed in the last article. Why don't you read it.

it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count

Got any evidence for that?

deadliness of 1918 Spanish flu linked to hypersensitivity ... enjoy
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060927201707.htm

Or are you going to accept that you made that bit up ?

So Generally people you debate with just get tried of your nonsense?

but from a laboratory it most likely came.

So far, you have put forward zero evidence for that.

As the earlier quote suggested the only place we find a virus similar to covid19 is in a laboratory therefore the simplest answer is that this virus came from a lab.  If you want to argue a zoological origin then provide the evidence to support your claim for the burden of proff is on you.

[Bored chemist]

That exactly what you did.

No.
It isn't.
I can only suggest that you learn to read.
What I said was impossible is that the doctors would have missed a mass die-off, even if they don't have a diagnosis.

Which is an absolute falsehood.  What happens in your imagination maybe sometimes should stay there.

The suggestion is directly yours and not mine.

It seems I need to explain what "implicitly" means.
For your assertions about the virus being in Barcelona in March to be true, and for the outbreaks to suddenly become serious in both China and Spain at much the same time, the virus would have had to suddenly become contagious in both places at the same time.
So, you saying that the virus was there early, and yet only became apparent at the same time implies that the virus gained virulence in both places at the same time.

cause of a second wave? Wow where did that come from? When  was it ever suggested that hypersensitivity caused a second wave?

Oops!
Sorry, you didn't say it was the cause of a second wave.
You said it was the cause of an extra deadly second wave.

it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count

And that's what those papers didn't support.

Sorry for the confusion.
Now, can you please actually cite evidence for what you said?

Not my idea mr chemist,

You are the one  putting it forward here.

Well speculation aside if it was in Spain in March 2019 and there is no huge death count, we'll have to find out why.

And if it wasn't there we don't need to explain something that's almost impossible; so that's much more likely.

Why are you ignoring the obvious explanation?

You know some of my suggestions as to possible reasons

Yes, and I know that the speculative "reasons" you put forward don't work.

It was directly addressed in the last article. Why don't you read it.

That article does not use the word "second".

If you think it says that the hypersensitivity reactions make a second wave  worse than the first, please quote the bit where it says so.

deadliness of 1918 Spanish flu linked to hypersensitivity ... enjoy

Not really in dispute.

But it doesn't say that hypersensitivity makes the second wave worse than the first, which is what you were attempting to explain.

As the earlier quote suggested the only place we find a virus similar to covid19 is in a laboratory

In reality, similar viruses have been studied in bats for over  a decade.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851503/

If you want to argue a zoological origin then provide the evidence to support your claim for the burden of proff is on you.

OK
There you are.

And it's happened before with a different virus.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/2/4/96-0408_article

[Jolly2]

That exactly what you did.

No.
It isn't.
I can only suggest that you learn to read.
What I said was impossible is that the doctors would have missed a mass die-off, even if they don't have a diagnosis.

And you can learn to read first.

I never suggested a mass die off. You're the  one obsessed with that.

I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.

So again.  You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.

It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.

Which is an absolute falsehood.  What happens in your imagination maybe sometimes should stay there.

The suggestion is directly yours and not mine.

It seems I need to explain what "implicitly" means.
For your assertions about the virus being in Barcelona in March to be true, and for the outbreaks to suddenly become serious in both China and Spain at much the same time, the virus would have had to suddenly become contagious

I think you'll find it has to be contagious to be virus(atleast has to be transmissable somehow). What are you talking about?! Seriously!

If the secound wave started at the end of 2019 and hypersensitivity was responsible for increased deaths, that could be an answer. The virus does not need to be more deadly for hypersensitivity to effect the mortality.

Again you change my point to rebuff a falsehood. What a joke.

in both places at the same time.
So, you saying that the virus was there early, and yet only became apparent at the same time implies that the virus gained virulence in both places at the same time.

No it doesn't, hypersensitivity is the body over reacting and killing people ergo the virus itself isn't killing anyone the bodies immunse system is responsible for the death.

cause of a second wave? Wow where did that come from? When  was it ever suggested that hypersensitivity caused a second wave?

Oops!
Sorry, you didn't say it was the cause of a second wave.
You said it was the cause of an extra deadly second wave.

Not sure I really believe the oppsy seems a bit to common.

it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count

And that's what those papers didn't support.

Sorry for the confusion.
Now, can you please actually cite evidence for what you said?

Evidence of hypersensitivity increasing death count is in the article I posted. Stop wasting my time

Not my idea mr chemist,

You are the one  putting it forward here.

Well speculation aside if it was in Spain in March 2019 and there is no huge death count, we'll have to find out why.

And if it wasn't there we don't need to explain something that's almost impossible; so that's much more likely.

Why are you ignoring the obvious explanation?

I'm not.  I have from the beginning been exploring possible reasons for a low death count, if the study is true.

Oh they have also now found evidence for corvid 19 in sewage in Brazil from before it was even confirmed in China.
and are currently doing genetic analysis on the virus. I wonder how many more countries will report similar findings.

You know some of my suggestions as to possible reasons

Yes, and I know that the speculative "reasons" you put forward don't work.

You are entitled to your opinion.

It was directly addressed in the last article. Why don't you read it.

That article does not use the word "second".

If you think it says that the hypersensitivity reactions make a second wave  worse than the first, please quote the bit where it says so.

deadliness of 1918 Spanish flu linked to hypersensitivity ... enjoy

Not really in dispute.

But it doesn't say that hypersensitivity makes the second wave worse than the first, which is what you were attempting to explain.

A second wave is worse through hypersensitivity because stored antibodies from the intial infection(first wave) are released and attack the host(in the second wave).

But I'm sure you are aware of that and just like wasting peoples time.

As the earlier quote suggested the only place we find a virus similar to covid19 is in a laboratory

In reality, similar viruses have been studied in bats for over  a decade.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851503/

Yes studied in laboratories, and often added to, through gain of function research.

 still as stated in the article covid19 is not a normal Corona virus infact:-

"Sørensen also highlights other data than those related to the virus’ properties:

“The properties that we now see in the virus, we have yet to discover anywhere in nature."

It has not been found anywhere in nature. Not In bats either mr chemist, so sorry your point is blunt.

If you want to argue a zoological origin then provide the evidence to support your claim for the burden of proff is on you.

OK
There you are.

And it's happened before with a different virus.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/2/4/96-0408_article

Oh dear yes Virsus' cross spieces.

But that's not the issue.  Rediculas post that in no way addresses the actual issue.

Both Trump and the head of the CIA have claimed to have seen evidence that covid 19 came from a lab.

If Trump said it must be true.

[alancalverd]

I was in Barcelona a few years ago.

You have my sympathy. Though I recall some good food.

If the population density was high enough (and the infected density high enough) that they found the virus in the sewers (just think about the dilution involved there) it's hard to see why nobody noticed.

Bullfighting season, perhaps? Loads of death and bullshit, so a bit more of both just looks like a good tourist season. This year the target is Brighton and the Essex Costa Geriatrica.

[Bored chemist]

Not sure I really believe the oppsy seems a bit to common.

From a man who can't  post anything without making a mistake...

And you can learn to read first.

I never suggested a mass die off. You're the  one obsessed with that.

I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.

So again.  You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.

It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.

Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.

Evidence of hypersensitivity increasing death count is in the article I posted. Stop wasting my time

But not as a reason why the second wave is more intense; which was the subject under discussion.
You could stop wasting everyone's time by admitting that, while hypersensitivity is bad, it's also bad during the first wave.
So it can't be a reason why the people of  Barcelona didn't have a mass die- off.

The virus does not need to be more deadly for hypersensitivity to effect the mortality.

No, but , for that to work, you need a reason that hypersensitivity is more important in the second wave.

So far you have only pretended to offer evidence for that.
In fact, you have not done so.

No it doesn't, hypersensitivity is the body over reacting and killing people ergo the virus itself isn't killing anyone the bodies immunse system is responsible for the death.

And.... once again...
There is no real reason why that would differ between a first and second wave, so there's no reason why it can be an explanation of the lack of an outbreak in Barcelona  in March 2019.

I'm not.  I have from the beginning been exploring possible reasons for a low death count, if the study is true.

So, you admit you have been ignoring the obvious reason; that the virus wasn't there.

Why are you ignoring the obvious reason?

A second wave is worse through hypersensitivity because stored antibodies from the intial infection(first wave) are released and attack the host(in the second wave).
.

And, again, that's the claim that I asked you to provide evidence for.
Why have you not done so?

Yes studied in laboratories,

No.
Studied in bats.
That's the point.

still as stated in the article covid19 is not a normal Corona virus

Stated in an article that also states something we know isn't true.

It has not been found anywhere in nature.

Yes it was- in a market in China, by some poor soul who became patient zero.

“The properties that we now see in the virus, we have yet to discover anywhere in nature."

Which properties?
It seems to share most of its properties with SARS or MERS.

[Jolly2]

Not sure I really believe the oppsy seems a bit to common.

From a man who can't  post anything without making a mistake...

And you can learn to read first.

I never suggested a mass die off. You're the  one obsessed with that.

I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.

So again.  You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.

It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.

Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.

Evidence of hypersensitivity increasing death count is in the article I posted. Stop wasting my time

But not as a reason why the second wave is more intense; which was the subject under discussion.
You could stop wasting everyone's time by admitting that, while hypersensitivity is bad, it's also bad during the first wave.
So it can't be a reason why the people of  Barcelona didn't have a mass die- off.

The virus does not need to be more deadly for hypersensitivity to effect the mortality.

No, but , for that to work, you need a reason that hypersensitivity is more important in the second wave.

So far you have only pretended to offer evidence for that.
In fact, you have not done so.

No it doesn't, hypersensitivity is the body over reacting and killing people ergo the virus itself isn't killing anyone the bodies immunse system is responsible for the death.

And.... once again...
There is no real reason why that would differ between a first and second wave, so there's no reason why it can be an explanation of the lack of an outbreak in Barcelona  in March 2019.

I'm not.  I have from the beginning been exploring possible reasons for a low death count, if the study is true.

So, you admit you have been ignoring the obvious reason; that the virus wasn't there.

Why are you ignoring the obvious reason?

A second wave is worse through hypersensitivity because stored antibodies from the intial infection(first wave) are released and attack the host(in the second wave).
.

And, again, that's the claim that I asked you to provide evidence for.
Why have you not done so?

Yes studied in laboratories,

No.
Studied in bats.
That's the point.

still as stated in the article covid19 is not a normal Corona virus

Stated in an article that also states something we know isn't true.

It has not been found anywhere in nature.

Yes it was- in a market in China, by some poor soul who became patient zero.

“The properties that we now see in the virus, we have yet to discover anywhere in nature."

Which properties?
It seems to share most of its properties with SARS or MERS.

Read the article those properties he describes.


And I don't see the point in discussing anymore. Enjoy

[Bored chemist]

Quote from: Jolly2 on Today at 16:34:40
And you can learn to read first.

I never suggested a mass die off. You're the  one obsessed with that.

I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.

So again.  You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.

It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.

[Bored chemist]

OK, Lets look at the report of the report
https://www.minervanett.no/corona/the-most-logical-explanation-is-that-it-comes-from-a-laboratory/361860

And here's what it says
" he explains. “It’s also possible for a virus to attain these properties in nature, but it’s not likely. If the mutations had happened in nature, we would have most likely seen that the virus had attracted other properties through mutations, not just properties that help the virus to attach itself to human cells.”"

And the fallacy concerned is the "Texas sharpshooter"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

If the virus hadn't picked up properties that make it really good at infecting people, we wouldn't ever have done any research on it.

[Bored chemist]

Quote from: Jolly2 on Today at 16:34:40
A second wave is worse through hypersensitivity because stored antibodies from the intial infection(first wave) are released and attack the host(in the second wave).
.
And, again, that's the claim that I asked you to provide evidence for.
Why have you not done so?

[Jolly2]

Quote from: Jolly2 on Today at 16:34:40
And you can learn to read first.

I never suggested a mass die off. You're the  one obsessed with that.

I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.

So again.  You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.

It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.

You are a totally disingenous actor I have little interest in continuing to discuss with.

YoUR WORDs "What I said was impossible is that the doctors would have missed a mass die-off"

I Never claimed a mass die off from the beginning I was giving examples of low to no mass death count.
You claimed my suggestion impossible. 

Because doctors would notice a huge death count.

When my idea was always referencing a small or non existent death count in March 2019.

ERGO you made up a claim I Did not make

I never suggested doctors mis labelled 1000s to 10s of thousands of deaths from covid19.

 So you precisely changed my idea to then then claim it impossible.

[Bored chemist]

ERGO you made up a claim I Did not make

Get a mirror

I never suggested doctors mis labelled 1000s to 10s of thousands of deaths from covid19.

Nobody said you did.
What I said was that, given the fact that the deaths would have happened, it was inevitable that the doctors would have seen that something was happening.
They could not, in March 2019, have diagnosed a disease that wasn't discovered until November 2019.
But they would still have noticed that half the deaths were from a respiratory infection.

I Never claimed a mass die off from the beginning

Nobody said you did.
Though, obviously, an unrestrained lethal infectious virus would lead to one.
But that's not the point.


Here's the relevant text.

Sorry you'll have to justify your claim.  According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?

Now, for the second or third time of asking... show us where you think I said that.

[Jolly2]

Quote from: Jolly2 on Today at 16:34:40
And you can learn to read first.

I never suggested a mass die off. You're the  one obsessed with that.

I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.

So again.  You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.

It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.

Changing the terms again. As I said you are disingenuous actor and I have no interest in discussing with you more.  I will no longer engage with you. Enjoy

[Jolly2]

Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?

I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?

      So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?

      Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?

I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.

Hi Karen to repeat myself again.

It seems clear that, Covid19 has been realised from a lab.

Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.

Brazil has now just released a study showing covid19 present in November 2019 5 months earlier then previously thought.

And Spain also had released a study showing Corona virus was in Spain back in March 2019.

Currently Genetic analysis is taking place on the virus' found.

[Bored chemist]

Here's the relevant text.
Quote from: Jolly2 on Yesterday at 20:46:34
Sorry you'll have to justify your claim.  According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?



Now, for the second or third time of asking... show us where you think I said that.

[alancalverd]

Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.

Was that before or after the alien anal probe? Not only any alien anal probe, but the greatest and most beautiful anal probe ever enjoyed by any president. They found his head, minus the tongue, and are now planning to probe Vladimir Putin for the missing bit.
God help America. 

[Jolly2]

Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.

Was that before or after the alien anal probe?

You have any evidence for alien anal probe of trump?

Not only any alien anal probe, but the greatest and most beautiful anal probe ever enjoyed by any president. They found his head, minus the tongue, and are now planning to probe Vladimir Putin for the missing bit.
God help America.

Is this some new bizarre Russia gate nonsense?

[Jolly2]

Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?

I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?

      So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?

      Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?

I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.

Hi Karen to repeat myself again.

It seems clear that, Covid19 has been realised from a lab.

Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.

Brazil has now just released a study showing covid19 present in November 2019 5 months earlier then previously thought.

And Spain also had released a study showing Corona virus was in Spain back in March 2019.

Currently Genetic analysis is taking place on the virus' found.

To continue:-

"We are now effectively working on sequencing the whole genome of these samples, so we'll be able to compare the sequencing of the virus found in our samples from late November with that of the virus now actually circulating and infecting people," she said. 

"Doing that we could maybe detect mutations that could possibly explain the increase in the number of cases now," she added, stressing that comparing the full genetic sequencing is important to deepen understanding about the virus. 

Gislaine Fongaro, a virologist at the university, explained how the research was conducted. She said the samples were collected from raw sewage in the pipes en route to the treatment plant. 

"These samples were collected monthly between October 2019 and March 2020. So we take the samples to the laboratory and freeze them. That's why we could go back over them now – they were frozen," she said. 

"Results came back negative for SARS-CoV-2 in the samples from October. And then negative again in the early November samples. But then results came back positive for the first time for a sample from November 27. And then all samples tested came back positive until March 2020," she explained. 

She said it's possible that if they went further back, they could find more positive results for the novel coronavirus. 

"It would be very important if we could review samples dating back to the beginning of the year [of 2019]," she said, adding that she hopes their research will encourage other teams who may have access to older samples to check them, and also encourage researchers to look into other older clinical samples taken from patients, which could also help tell the story of the virus.

"Because if we found this in the sewer, that's because people were already carrying the virus. That means there were already people who were infected but were not diagnosed because we did not know about the virus back then," she noted."

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-07-05/Exclusive-Brazilian-researchers-on-discovery-of-COVID-19-in-November-RSNcP85glO/index.html

[alancalverd]

Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.

Was that before or after the alien anal probe?

You have any evidence for alien anal probe of trump?

Something must be operating his mouth, and it ain't human. After all, it was

Not only any alien anal probe, but the greatest and most beautiful anal probe ever enjoyed by any president.

[alancalverd]

So no big deal about the Spanish sewage. The current virus is pretty common in bats and was probably circulating among humans in Wuhan in September so might have appeared pretty well anywhere by November. And so it did.

[Bored chemist]

To continue:-

There's no point with continuing until you have tidied up the mess you already made.
So, for the 4th time

Here's the relevant text.
Quote from: Jolly2 on Yesterday at 20:46:34
Sorry you'll have to justify your claim.  According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?



Now, for the second or third time of asking... show us where you think I said that.