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  4. Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
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Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #200 on: 27/05/2022 13:32:56 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/05/2022 13:07:08
But a water body with 0°C average temperature has various local temperature. So does the ice. Moreover,
0°C ice can receive heat energy without changing its temperature, by melting.
0°C water can give away heat energy without changing its temperature, by freezing.
And, on average, these cancel out which is why the answer to your question
"Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?"
Is still no- just like everyone has said all along.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #201 on: 27/05/2022 13:39:32 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/05/2022 13:07:08
But a water body with 0°C average temperature has various local temperature.
Yet again, you have discovered the meaning of "average".
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/05/2022 13:07:08
The freezing always starts from the water surface in the container. Warmer water (up to 4°C) tends to go to the bottom, due to its density.
And the anomalous convection of cold water, without which life could not exist on this planet.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/05/2022 13:07:08
Are there other factors that can generate local temperature difference?
The only thing that can change the temperature of a body is adding or removing energy. Local temperature fluctuations are inevitable in a body that is being heated or cooled anisotropically. In most cases the temperature gradient can be calculated from knowledge of the thermal diffusivity or convective behavior of the material but in the case of water and a few other liquids,  you also need to know the  starting temperature so you can anticipate anomalous convection or solid phase change.

To repeat Sir Lawrence Bragg's dictum: if you get better than  ±20% in a heat experiment, you are doing  very well. Been there, done that, spent 20 person-years getting to ± 0.1% in an amorphous, homogeneous solid.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #202 on: 27/05/2022 22:44:41 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/05/2022 13:39:32
Yet again, you have discovered the meaning of "average".
What's your interpretation?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #203 on: 27/05/2022 22:46:43 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/05/2022 13:39:32
The only thing that can change the temperature of a body is adding or removing energy.
Or changing from other forms of energy, such as chemical, mechanical,  or electrical energy.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #204 on: 28/05/2022 00:48:12 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/05/2022 13:39:32
Yet again, you have discovered the meaning of "average".
That's the whole story here, neatly summarised by Alan.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #205 on: 28/05/2022 17:02:45 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 28/05/2022 00:48:12
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/05/2022 13:39:32
Yet again, you have discovered the meaning of "average".
That's the whole story here, neatly summarised by Alan.
What do you think that average means?  How can it be used to predict or explain my experimental results?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #206 on: 28/05/2022 17:12:54 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/05/2022 17:02:45
What do you think that average means?
1.
a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean


Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/05/2022 17:02:45
How can it be used to predict or explain my experimental results?
As far as I can tell, your experiment did not involve a system that was at 0oC.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #207 on: 28/05/2022 17:39:22 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/05/2022 22:46:43
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/05/2022 13:39:32
The only thing that can change the temperature of a body is adding or removing energy.
Or changing from other forms of energy, such as chemical, mechanical,  or electrical energy.
I will concede that. Chemical reactions are well known.A spectacular mechanical example was BC's  mention of the fire at the Windscale nuclear reactor, where the accumulated microscopic mechanical stresses due to neutrons displacing carbon atoms from their lattice, were all resolved in a short time when the temperature rose to the annealing point and then "took off" in a chain reaction. And the classic case of the electrical energy of a body being converted to heat is the spontaneous self-destruction of lithium batteries.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #208 on: 31/05/2022 15:51:52 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 28/05/2022 17:39:22
And the classic case of the electrical energy of a body being converted to heat is the spontaneous self-destruction of lithium batteries.
I think it involves chemical energy, in the form of chemical bonds. Discharge of a capacitor is a more exclusive example of electrical energy turning into heat which changes temperature.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #209 on: 31/05/2022 16:08:00 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 28/05/2022 17:12:54
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/05/2022 17:02:45
What do you think that average means?
1.
a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean


Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/05/2022 17:02:45
How can it be used to predict or explain my experimental results?
As far as I can tell, your experiment did not involve a system that was at 0oC.

Which kind of average is the most relevant to temperature? Mol weighted average, mass weighted average, volume weighted average, time weighted average?

What is the average temperature of ice water mixture in atmospheric pressure after being left to reach equilibrium?
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Offline Origin

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #210 on: 31/05/2022 16:27:10 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/05/2022 16:08:00
What is the average temperature of ice water mixture in atmospheric pressure after being left to reach equilibrium?
How can you possibly be asking this question after 11 pages?!?  Are seriously saying you don't know the temperature will be 0C???  I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with you....
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #211 on: 31/05/2022 18:46:39 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/05/2022 16:08:00
Which kind of average is the most relevant to temperature? Mol weighted average, mass weighted average, volume weighted average, time weighted average?
Since the ice and water are at exactly the same temperature, it doesn't matter.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #212 on: 02/06/2022 18:09:27 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/05/2022 15:51:52
I think it involves chemical energy, in the form of chemical bonds.
No.Lithium batteries can develop an internal short circuit. Used to cause the occasional laptop computer to burst into flames so laptop use was were banned from passenger aircraft for a while, then a few early Dreamliners caught fire thanks to the aircraft's own hi-tech lightweight starter batteries!
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #213 on: 04/06/2022 14:54:28 »
Quote from: Origin on 31/05/2022 16:27:10
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/05/2022 16:08:00
What is the average temperature of ice water mixture in atmospheric pressure after being left to reach equilibrium?
How can you possibly be asking this question after 11 pages?!?  Are seriously saying you don't know the temperature will be 0C???  I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with you....

Maybe you can understand if you've read the post as a whole, including which statement I was responding to. Otherwise, you'll keep wondering.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 28/05/2022 17:12:54
As far as I can tell, your experiment did not involve a system that was at 0oC.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #214 on: 04/06/2022 15:10:31 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/05/2022 18:46:39
Since the ice and water are at exactly the same temperature, it doesn't matter.
But that's only an idealized and unrealistic condition, which is hard to achieve in real life experiment.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #215 on: 04/06/2022 15:15:28 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/06/2022 15:10:31
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/05/2022 18:46:39
Since the ice and water are at exactly the same temperature, it doesn't matter.
But that's only an idealized and unrealistic condition, which is hard to achieve in real life experiment.
Here's how they did it a few hundred years ago.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/content/ice-calorimeter-developed-by-lavoisier-and-laplace-14898943/
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #216 on: 04/06/2022 15:16:18 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/06/2022 18:09:27
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/05/2022 15:51:52
I think it involves chemical energy, in the form of chemical bonds.
No.Lithium batteries can develop an internal short circuit. Used to cause the occasional laptop computer to burst into flames so laptop use was were banned from passenger aircraft for a while, then a few early Dreamliners caught fire thanks to the aircraft's own hi-tech lightweight starter batteries!
What makes you think that the energy is not stored in the form of chemical bonds?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #217 on: 04/06/2022 15:21:20 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 04/06/2022 15:15:28
Here's how they did it a few hundred years ago.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/content/ice-calorimeter-developed-by-lavoisier-and-laplace-14898943/
It doesn't show that the ice and water are at exactly the same temperature at every point.
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Offline Origin

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #218 on: 04/06/2022 15:39:26 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/06/2022 14:54:28
Maybe you can understand if you've read the post as a whole, including which statement I was responding to. Otherwise, you'll keep wondering.
No that doesn't help because you have been told multiple time that the temperature would be 0C.  For some bizarre reason no matter how many times you are given the correct answer you continue to ask the question.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a net heat exchange between water and ice at 0 degree C?
« Reply #219 on: 04/06/2022 15:46:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/06/2022 15:21:20
Quote from: Bored chemist on 04/06/2022 15:15:28
Here's how they did it a few hundred years ago.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/content/ice-calorimeter-developed-by-lavoisier-and-laplace-14898943/
It doesn't show that the ice and water are at exactly the same temperature at every point.
It does; it's just that you don't understand it.
If you have ice and water at equilibrium, in a closed vessel surrounded by ice and water, what other temperature can it be apart from 0C?
Consider the following before you answer.
(1) That if you add heat to the system, you won't change the temperature, you will just met some ice.
(2) That if you remove heat from the system, you won't reduce the temperature, you will just freeze some water
(3) Since the ice and water inside the container is at the same temperature as the ice and water outside it, there is no temperature gradient across the container wall, and therefore no heat transfer.

So, if there was a transfer of heat, the temperature wouldn't change, and there's no mechanism for a transfer of heat anyway.
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