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  4. Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events

Poll

Are you inclined to believe matter is made of spacetime events?

Yes.
0 (0%)
No.
6 (100%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: 16/02/2021 12:16:31

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Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events

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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« on: 31/08/2020 10:34:07 »
The proof goes as follows:

Number Statement                                                                                                     Reason
1         Positively and negatively charged matter particles attracts and exist in
              spacetime.                                                                                                    Postulate
2         Matter particles must substitute for spacetime events.                                1
3         Only spacetime events may substitute for other spacetime events.              Postulate
4         Matter particles must be made of spacetime events.                                   2, 3
QED.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #1 on: 31/08/2020 10:49:45 »
That is nonsense.
At best, it's a circular argument and therefore invalid.
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Offline puppypower

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #2 on: 31/08/2020 12:04:48 »
Space-time is a reference system for observing  and quantifying physical and material reality. In this physical reality, time and space always appear to be connected. One way to see this is to separate time and space, and then try to apply the laws of physics as we know.

For example, say we have an object moving in space from point A to point B. However, time will now act apart from these space coordinates. Point A will be now but point B will be yesterday at exactly midnight. This scenario is messed up in terms of the laws of physics, since we do not normally see motion going back in time over a short span of distance. This is not of this universe.

In this universe, time has to stay connected to space in certain ways.Therefor time can only move forward  and time has to stay within a range that does not violate the speed of light. The time interval cannot be too small, or else this is not part of the universe. With matter not all things are possible. What is possible needs to stay within specific space-time parameters. If we depart or time breaks away from space, new physics would need to be defined.
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #3 on: 31/08/2020 13:09:06 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/08/2020 10:49:45
At best, it's a circular argument and therefore invalid.

What statement is circular and why?

Quote from: puppypower on 31/08/2020 12:04:48
Space-time is a reference system for observing  and quantifying physical and material reality. In this physical reality, time and space always appear to be connected

Relevance?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #4 on: 31/08/2020 13:14:09 »
Your  postulate
Quote from: talanum1 on 31/08/2020 10:34:07
Matter particles must substitute for spacetime events. 
Is essentially the same as your conclusion
Quote from: talanum1 on 31/08/2020 10:34:07
Matter particles must be made of spacetime events.             

But it's hard to tell because none of your terms is properly defined.
Your previous attempts at definitions have been unsuccessful
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #5 on: 31/08/2020 13:30:24 »
Replace line 2 with:

2         Matter particles, whatever they are made of, must substitute for spacetime events.                     1.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #6 on: 31/08/2020 15:06:19 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 31/08/2020 13:30:24
Replace line 2 with:

2         Matter particles, whatever they are made of, must substitute for spacetime events.                     1.
That's meaningless.
I got out of bed this morning.
That's a spacetime event.
Do you think it's a proton or an electron?
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #7 on: 31/08/2020 15:19:09 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/08/2020 15:06:19
I got out of bed this morning.
That's a spacetime event.

I mean with "spacetime event" the point in space together with a local time at the point.
« Last Edit: 31/08/2020 15:21:29 by talanum1 »
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Offline puppypower

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #8 on: 22/09/2020 16:30:38 »
Matter and especially mass is the main reason we have space-time events. If you consider General Relativity, mass controls the local expression of space-time. The more mass you add  to any given volume of space, the more space-time curves. The universe is composed of pockets of curved space-time all interconnected by what we call gravity all led by mass.

According to Special Relativity, mass cannot move at the speed of light. Therefore, since mass cannot not be found at the speed of light reference, neither can space-time or gravity as we know it. Space-time becomes discontinuous at the speed of light due to no mass to sustain it. This allows time and space to act independently of each other. One can move in time without space limitations and move in space without time limitations. This unusual set of properties is not a property of matter or mass, since matter and mass sets limits that we call space-time.

If you look at gravitational force, the equations say this goes to infinity. The question is how is that possible, since it would take more time, even at the speed of light, to reach infinity, than mass has been around in the universe. The answer to this mystery is the gravitational force creates acceleration which is d/t/t. Acceleration is  one part distance and two parts time, or space-time plus time. It is more than just space-time. This is the intersection of space-time and speed of light reference time, which has no space limitation. To infinity is quite easy, in the speed of light reference since time is not distance dependent. This allows the universe to coordinate in space-time over huge distances, that seem to not apply to space-time.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #9 on: 22/09/2020 17:43:55 »
Quote from: puppypower on 22/09/2020 16:30:38
the speed of light reference
You still haven't explained what you think that phrase means.

Why do you keep using it?
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #10 on: 06/01/2021 16:26:36 »
Here is an argument for "Yes":

Matter follows geodesics in spacetime therefore it respects spacetime. Why should anything not made of spacetime respect it?
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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #11 on: 06/01/2021 16:56:57 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 06/01/2021 16:26:36
Matter follows geodesics in spacetime therefore it respects spacetime. Why should anything not made of spacetime respect it?

Why should water respect metal pipes when the metal pipes aren't made out of water?
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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #12 on: 06/01/2021 16:59:47 »
Quote from: Kryptid on 06/01/2021 16:56:57
Why should water respect metal pipes when the metal pipes aren't made out of water?

They are both made of spacetime events.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #13 on: 06/01/2021 17:03:23 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 06/01/2021 16:59:47
They are both made of spacetime events.
You still have not told is what you think the phrase "spacetime event" means.
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #14 on: 06/01/2021 17:07:18 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 06/01/2021 17:03:23
You still have not told is what you think the phrase "spacetime event" means.

Points of space together with time stamps at the points.
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #15 on: 06/01/2021 17:26:10 »
Moreover: matter respects time.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #16 on: 06/01/2021 20:00:24 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 06/01/2021 17:07:18
Quote from: Bored chemist on 06/01/2021 17:03:23
You still have not told is what you think the phrase "spacetime event" means.

Points of space together with time stamps at the points.
Then this is wrong.
Quote from: talanum1 on 06/01/2021 16:59:47
Quote from: Kryptid on 06/01/2021 16:56:57
Why should water respect metal pipes when the metal pipes aren't made out of water?

They are both made of spacetime events.
Pipes are commonly made from copper, for example.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2021 20:03:27 by Bored chemist »
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #17 on: 08/01/2021 18:26:33 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 06/01/2021 20:00:24
Pipes are commonly made from copper, for example.

And copper is made out of spacetime events.
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #18 on: 08/01/2021 18:35:53 »
Quote from: Halc on 31/08/2020 15:23:51
BC got out of bed (bed being a location in space) this morning (a local time of the point).
So you at least seem to have some clue as to what an event is, but him getting up this morning is still not a proton.

BC getting out of bed specifies a set of spacetime events. A proton is made of half a Riemann Sphere, with another half made of left out events. Isn't it neat that an abstract reference to nothing makes a proton?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Proof that Matter is Made out of Spacetime Events
« Reply #19 on: 08/01/2021 18:45:00 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 08/01/2021 18:35:53
A proton is made of half a Riemann Sphere
No it isn't.
Proof by loud assertion isn't going to work here.
Quote from: talanum1 on 08/01/2021 18:35:53
Isn't it neat that an abstract reference to nothing makes a proton?
No.
Quote from: talanum1 on 08/01/2021 18:26:33
And copper is made out of spacetime events.
I think you might as well just call it "stuff".
It would be less trouble, and just as helpful.
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