Post by: jfoldbar on 01/04/2020 08:45:34
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
Post by: alancalverd on 01/04/2020 09:32:38
Post by: jfoldbar on 01/04/2020 10:09:11
It's a ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic, with a few good ideas for survival in a desert (Leviticus) and an urban society (Mark). A sound basis for workers' rights ("six days shalt thou labor…" "the laborer is worthy of his hire....") and some general commandments that underpin most criminal and civil law. But it doesn't provide any excuse for tithes, pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, self-flagellation, paedophilia, shunning, pilgrimage...… or any evidence for the supernatural or an afterlife, and the reification of the adjectives "good" and "evil" is an insult to the human intellect.
so what your saying is something like. "hey theres some good stuff in it so why not"
Post by: alancalverd on 01/04/2020 23:51:15
My favorite example is where the Hebrew version of Genesis states that all animals were created with a soul ("nefesh") but most Latin and English versions do not, in order to justify blood sports. Frankly, if you doubt the authenticity of Chapter One, it's not a good idea to base serious life choices on the rest of the book. So use the Talmud (because the scrolls are copied, not edited or translated) for guidance, and take the rest with a pinch of salt.
There's the "why not".
The dietary laws and the bases of commandments and proportionate justice, are reflected to some extent in most societies, so it's a handy compendium of what most people would consider reasonable anyway, but the references to a deity are clearly allegorical rather than factual.
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 06:13:38
im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
You've listed a number of objections. Would you mind getting specific?
Francis Collins, B.S. chemistry University of Virginia 1970, Ph.D. physical chemistry, Yale University 1974. Led the National Institutes of Health for President Barack Obama. He headed the successful drive to sequence the human genome. As director of the NIH, he oversaw 27 institutes with an annual budget of more than $30 billion.
As the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute since 1993 — what some call the most prestigious job in science — Collins has led the effort to decode human DNA, along the way developing a revolutionary method of screening genes for disease. Yet according to this widely respected scientist, the newfound power to "read our own instruction book" is no obstacle to faith in the existence of God. He converted from atheism to Christianity in his twenties after seeing how radically his patients' faith transformed their experience of suffering, and after reading several works by C.S. Lewis. Some 30 years later, he stands by his convictions, positioning science not as substitute for theology, but as a subset of it. Here, Collins traces out his personal path to God, and explains how his faith affects his work.
Read his book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief
Post by: alancalverd on 02/04/2020 10:22:41
(a) the perverts who organise religion tend to silence those who disagree (Bruno, Galileo.....) whereas the essence of the scientific method is disagreement
(b) the deeper we probe into the mechanisms of the universe, the less evidence there is for an external controller.
Believers sacrifice virgins to make the sun rise. We ran out of virgins in Essex a long time ago, eppur si muove. That's science.
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/04/2020 11:27:59
Interesting.im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
You've listed a number of objections. Would you mind getting specific?
Francis Collins, B.S. chemistry University of Virginia 1970, Ph.D. physical chemistry, Yale University 1974. Led the National Institutes of Health for President Barack Obama. He headed the successful drive to sequence the human genome. As director of the NIH, he oversaw 27 institutes with an annual budget of more than $30 billion.
As the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute since 1993 — what some call the most prestigious job in science — Collins has led the effort to decode human DNA, along the way developing a revolutionary method of screening genes for disease. Yet according to this widely respected scientist, the newfound power to "read our own instruction book" is no obstacle to faith in the existence of God. He converted from atheism to Christianity in his twenties after seeing how radically his patients' faith transformed their experience of suffering, and after reading several works by C.S. Lewis. Some 30 years later, he stands by his convictions, positioning science not as substitute for theology, but as a subset of it. Here, Collins traces out his personal path to God, and explains how his faith affects his work.
Read his book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief
Obviously I haven't met him. If I did, I'd probably be more interested in his work than his beliefs, but maybe, if there was a lull in conversation I'd ask what he actually thinks about the origin of the world.
Do you think he believes it was made 6000 years ago, or do you think he believes in science?
I guess there's some interesting information there
"Francis Collins, B.S. chemistry University of Virginia 1970,"
So, born about 1950, and now about 70 years old.
"why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book?"
Force of habit, maybe?
Post by: jfoldbar on 02/04/2020 11:53:49
im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
You've listed a number of objections. Would you mind getting specific?
Francis Collins, B.S. chemistry University of Virginia 1970, Ph.D. physical chemistry, Yale University 1974. Led the National Institutes of Health for President Barack Obama. He headed the successful drive to sequence the human genome. As director of the NIH, he oversaw 27 institutes with an annual budget of more than $30 billion.
As the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute since 1993 — what some call the most prestigious job in science — Collins has led the effort to decode human DNA, along the way developing a revolutionary method of screening genes for disease. Yet according to this widely respected scientist, the newfound power to "read our own instruction book" is no obstacle to faith in the existence of God. He converted from atheism to Christianity in his twenties after seeing how radically his patients' faith transformed their experience of suffering, and after reading several works by C.S. Lewis. Some 30 years later, he stands by his convictions, positioning science not as substitute for theology, but as a subset of it. Here, Collins traces out his personal path to God, and explains how his faith affects his work.
Read his book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief
this is exactly what im talking about. why would a man with so much education believe the bible?
Post by: jfoldbar on 02/04/2020 11:57:38
Quote
"Do you think he believes it was made 6000 years ago, or do you think he believes in science?"
people dont 'believe' in science. they understand it. there is no 'belief'. it just is.
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 15:27:29
im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.Harvard professor, Dr. Armand Nicholi, has written about the different and contrasting worldviews of C. S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud, which is the subject of a class he taught at Harvard for decades and also had "stand in line" sign ups for the limited available places. A PBS Series of the same name, was also produced and is available on-line.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
"The Question of God Series" he taught is an acclaimed program worth your time.
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 15:38:15
Interesting.im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
You've listed a number of objections. Would you mind getting specific?
Francis Collins, B.S. chemistry University of Virginia 1970, Ph.D. physical chemistry, Yale University 1974. Led the National Institutes of Health for President Barack Obama. He headed the successful drive to sequence the human genome. As director of the NIH, he oversaw 27 institutes with an annual budget of more than $30 billion.
As the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute since 1993 — what some call the most prestigious job in science — Collins has led the effort to decode human DNA, along the way developing a revolutionary method of screening genes for disease. Yet according to this widely respected scientist, the newfound power to "read our own instruction book" is no obstacle to faith in the existence of God. He converted from atheism to Christianity in his twenties after seeing how radically his patients' faith transformed their experience of suffering, and after reading several works by C.S. Lewis. Some 30 years later, he stands by his convictions, positioning science not as substitute for theology, but as a subset of it. Here, Collins traces out his personal path to God, and explains how his faith affects his work.
Read his book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief
Obviously I haven't met him. If I did, I'd probably be more interested in his work than his beliefs, but maybe, if there was a lull in conversation I'd ask what he actually thinks about the origin of the world.
Do you think he believes it was made 6000 years ago, or do you think he believes in science?
I guess there's some interesting information there
"Francis Collins, B.S. chemistry University of Virginia 1970,"
So, born about 1950, and now about 70 years old.
"why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book?"
Force of habit, maybe?
Become familiar with him. Take a moment to find out just what he thinks and why.
Malcolm Muggeridge is a fascinating story. An outspoken critic of religion for years, he was a popular 20th century intellectual who was transformed by Christ. “Every happening, great and small, is a parable whereby God speaks to us, and the art of life is to get the message.”
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 15:52:35
im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man’s eyes was a Sabbath. Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.
Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”
The man replied, “He is a prophet.”
They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents. “Is this your son?” they asked. “Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?”
“We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind. But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.” His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God by telling the truth,” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”
He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”
Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”
He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”
Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”
The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”
Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
I love examples of true spirituality speaking to depraved religious doctrines. The Pharisees knew Christ was a sinner because he helped someone on a holy day. Notice how they rejoiced that Christ had relieved the suffering of a crippled man!
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 16:00:39
“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”
Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
His experience was a wee bit different than the folks who watch a performance at a healing rally today. He had no faith. Didn't even know who healed him. Wasn't asked for financial support. Wasn't slain in the spirit and knocked down at someone's command. The entire account is more about this poor guy, who really encountered God, than promoting the "ministry" of the person who healed him.
John's gospel is a fantastic read.
Post by: alancalverd on 02/04/2020 17:01:13
It is entirely probable that Moses, Aaron, David & co existed and set down the principles of the Israelite civilisation, in roughly the historic order stated. Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt? I doubt it. A fundamentalist rabbi crucified for annoying the Romans and the established clergy? Quite likely (we are an argumentative tribe). Virgin birth? It's not unique to the Judaeo-Christian mythology - indeed there have been 14 crucified saviour-gods born of virgins around the world - but it isn't believable either.
So the question is what do you mean by "believe"? Or indeed "bible"? A ragbag of texts written in various languages over some 4000 years, with bits of history, bits of statute law, various poems, raving mysticism, sex and violence, and "eyewitness" accounts by people who weren't alive at the time. There's certainly evidence that Caucasians had a single female ancestor, but none for a snake and an apple, and Eve still doesn't explain the other races on the planet.
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/04/2020 17:40:13
John's gospel is a fantastic read.So is the Lord of The Rings, but I'd not base my life on it.
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 18:47:03
Scientists live for experiments. Einstein had to wait years before his work was confirmed in 1919 through the telescopic test results during an eclipse. Time and space formed a fabric of sorts which was warped by massive objects. He turned the world on its head. He plowed through zillions of ideas/details to arrive at the simplicity of E=MC2.
This God says in effect, "Put me to the test. Seek me, not doctrines or theories or what others say. You want to know if I AM? Then, seek ME, and you will find me!"
That is what is so cool about GOD. He can be known!
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 18:59:23
So is the Lord of The Rings, but I'd not base my life on it.
Well, that is a bit strange. Most scholars I know surrendered their lives to The Lord of Rings!
Post by: alancalverd on 02/04/2020 19:43:56
That is what is so cool about GOD. He can be known!Wrong!
An angel fell from heaven with a broken wing. A couple of lads found him and took him to their local vet who fixed the wing and fed him on ambrosia for a few weeks, then called the lads back to say goodbye.
The angel said "You've all been very kind. What can I do to repay you?"
"Just tell us what God is like"
"Well, she's black....."
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 20:42:47
Why? As his pals murdered Steve, Saul/Paul guarded their clothing. What? He was worried that these assassins, while stoning to death some guy, risked having their clothing stolen? They feared some idiots walking by would think, "My, what a perfect opportunity to snatch some new threads!" And, what were they doing killing somebody with their clothes off?
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 21:02:35
Post by: Kryptid on 02/04/2020 21:15:29
BTW, does entanglement disprove C is the fastest anything can go?
It's more correct to say that c is as fast as information can go. Quantum entanglement doesn't transfer information.
Post by: jeffreyH on 02/04/2020 22:02:33
Post by: jeffreyH on 02/04/2020 22:06:23
Post by: jeffreyH on 02/04/2020 22:08:14
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 22:29:50
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 22:45:57
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 23:05:33
Please feel free to translate the above into Latin to get the full ambience.Good one. Funny.
I know how it looks. I had no faith for a long time. Wasn't interested, didn't care and thought the whole religious thing was junk and not worth my time. Jesus was Santa, nothing more; an imaginary boob who most likely never lived but, if he had lived, he was long gone. The story concocted about him was a ruse, an effort to control others for power.
Then, I started reading things like, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?”
20 “You are demon-possessed,” the crowd answered. “Who is trying to kill you?”
21 Jesus said to them, “I did one miracle, and you are all amazed. 22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. 23 Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
25 At that point some of the people of Jerusalem began to ask, “Isn’t this the man they are trying to kill? 26 Here he is, speaking publicly, and they are not saying a word to him. Have the authorities really concluded that he is the Messiah? 27 But we know where this man is from; when the Messiah comes, no one will know where he is from.”
28 Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, “Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own authority, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, 29 but I know him because I am from him and he sent me.”
30 At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come. 31 Still, many in the crowd believed in him. They said, “When the Messiah comes, will he perform more signs than this man?”
32 The Pharisees heard the crowd whispering such things about him. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple guards to arrest him.
33 Jesus said, “I am with you for only a short time, and then I am going to the one who sent me. 34 You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.”
35 They said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? 36 What did he mean when he said, ‘You will look for me, but you will not find me,’ and ‘Where I am, you cannot come’?”
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
You can discover for yourself who he is. That's what blows me away. We can prove, conclusively, whether or not HE IS, by taking him up on his offer. Pray. "GOD, JESUS, are you real? Show me!" How cool is that?
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 23:29:45
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 23:32:37
Post by: duffyd on 02/04/2020 23:47:18
Post by: Petrochemicals on 02/04/2020 23:58:27
Dont marry your sister as you could get genetic problems
Thievery leads to social breakdown
Infidelity spreads VD
Pork is a two way street concerning viruses, especialy somewhere hot,
There was a tsunami in the red sea
Somesort of ancient flood happened
Egypt was one of the ancient civilisations.
There is wisdom to life quality
Etc
Post by: Petrochemicals on 03/04/2020 00:05:02
"And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him."
Why? As his pals murdered Steve, Saul/Paul guarded their clothing. What? He was worried that these assassins, while stoning to death some guy, risked having their clothing stolen? They feared some idiots walking by would think, "My, what a perfect opportunity to snatch some new threads!" And, what were they doing killing somebody with their clothes off?
Dr. Stephen Smith reported that this is the beginning of the end of the pandemic. He pointed out that not a single COVID-19 patient of his that has been on the hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin regimen for five days or more has had to be intubated. The odds that that is a coincidence are off the chartsAre you alligning dr stephen smith with the martyr stephen ? Are you stephen smith ? Gin and tonic with a twist of lime, kills the bugs dampens the inflamation, provides vitamin c. The raj
Post by: duffyd on 03/04/2020 00:14:18
I'm his barber. Quinine is where it's at."And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him."
Why? As his pals murdered Steve, Saul/Paul guarded their clothing. What? He was worried that these assassins, while stoning to death some guy, risked having their clothing stolen? They feared some idiots walking by would think, "My, what a perfect opportunity to snatch some new threads!" And, what were they doing killing somebody with their clothes off?Dr. Stephen Smith reported that this is the beginning of the end of the pandemic. He pointed out that not a single COVID-19 patient of his that has been on the hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin regimen for five days or more has had to be intubated. The odds that that is a coincidence are off the chartsAre you alligning dr stephen smith with the martyr stephen ? Are you stephen smith ? Gin and tonic with a twist of lime, kills the bugs dampens the inflamation, provides vitamin c. The raj
What I would give to be able to encourage you to seek Him. Have you experienced the love of your children, your parents, a spouse? He loves us. I would to GOD you would find out for yourself if that is true. You will never be the same person if and when you realize deep down how He loves you.
Post by: duffyd on 03/04/2020 00:19:27
Post by: duffyd on 03/04/2020 01:16:37
SMITH: "It’s a game changer. Absolutely, game changer. I think these data go to really support the French data. Now you actually have comparison saying that this regimen works and I will get some real statisticians besides my sons to look at that."
INGRAHAM: "Dr. Smith, thank you for all the work. You and I and our medicine cabinet of folks in all your colleagues, thank you."
SMITH: "Laura, I think this is the beginning of the end of the pandemic. I’m very serious."
Post by: jfoldbar on 03/04/2020 06:29:49
should i start discussing the compression ratio of various diesel engines.? perhaps there a link to the trustworthiness of the bible there somehow?
Post by: duffyd on 03/04/2020 06:54:22
im having trouble working out what a corona doctor and some random bible passages have to do with the thread title.Well, me too. I haven't made sense since 1937. What can I say?
should i start discussing the compression ratio of various diesel engines.? perhaps there a link to the trustworthiness of the bible there somehow?
Actually, excellent topic. What do human suffering, hope and God have to do with each other? Everything. I would have shouted the great news about the progress scientists are making from the top of the Empire State Building if I could make it that far.
If I care, God cares, because if He didn't, I wouldn't. I'd be playing the piano in a whore house in The Big Easy, drinking port and stumbling to the john.
Post by: alancalverd on 03/04/2020 09:35:36
I'd be playing the piano in a whore house in The Big Easy, drinking port and stumbling to the john.It's what I do for relaxation, but your god seems to have closed the whorehouses with COVID. Pity - they never had this much trouble with syphilis or any of His other creations. But you see I care about people, He doesn't.
Post by: duffyd on 03/04/2020 12:14:48
You care about Him?I'd be playing the piano in a whore house in The Big Easy, drinking port and stumbling to the john.It's what I do for relaxation, but your god seems to have closed the whorehouses with COVID. Pity - they never had this much trouble with syphilis or any of His other creations. But you see I care about people, He doesn't.
Post by: duffyd on 03/04/2020 17:41:17
Post by: Petrochemicals on 03/04/2020 23:13:26
Is that a metaphore ?im having trouble working out what a corona doctor and some random bible passages have to do with the thread title.I'd be playing the piano in a whore house in The Big Easy, drinking port and stumbling to the john.
should i start discussing the compression ratio of various diesel engines.? perhaps there a link to the trustworthiness of the bible there somehow?
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 01:18:49
Is that a metaphore ?im having trouble working out what a corona doctor and some random bible passages have to do with the thread title.I'd be playing the piano in a whore house in The Big Easy, drinking port and stumbling to the john.
should i start discussing the compression ratio of various diesel engines.? perhaps there a link to the trustworthiness of the bible there somehow?
It's the best case scenario if I was still alive. Most likely I'd be dead without Him.
We know science can't provide a smidgen of evidence that God exists. Yet, if not for him, I'd be a goner, guaranteed. And, to be honest, I know about 408 billion people just like me who all say the same thing. That is all irrelevant, however. The counter point goes something like, "Tons of people believe all kinds of silliness and get their act together." I just don't know any of them. I have never heard people thanking Buddha or Vishnu or the maharishi or uncle Harry for helping them personally receive a new heart, a new spirit, a new outlook on life as a free gift.
But, science, repeated outcomes from the same drug in clinical trials type stuff, is all bogus when it comes to God.
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 01:29:03
Post by: Jolly2 on 04/04/2020 01:46:50
im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
IdK. So the problem here is that you are comparing completely different things. Science is not religion nor religion science.
They are different tools you could say, seeking different answers to different questions both Science and religion are interested in truth yet the scientific truth and religious truth are completely different concepts and ideas, that you cant compare equals.
The bible as an example has 2 pages effectively that discuss the creation of the world. 2 pages in a collection of many books. This is primarily because the bible isnt really concerned with how the world was made or what is the world made of as science is. Hence comparing them as you are is highly simplistic.
The bible simply states "God made it" and moves on briskly to its actual concern of topics like how we should live? how should we treat others? What is the nature of evil or sin? The bible isn't in anyway really concerned with atoms, chemistry, biology and the other subjects of science.
The bible is concerned with human interaction, peace, justice, life.
While science can say how things are it will never tell you how to live save some dietary suggestions.
Quote
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence
Again meaningless in this regard.
Quote
against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it.
Not at all, I highly recommend you listen to some of the lectures on the psychological significance of the biblical stories given by Jorden Peterson.
Quote
.for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought.
Again this a highly simplistic view of religion and faith.
Quote
and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
And never will it because as I suggested before that is not what the bible is interested in.
Quote
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
Because it is more then a story book. Simplically it's also a poetry book, a history book, a book of wise quotes, a book of predictions and prophecies, a book of songs, a book of myths and legends, and much more.
Sadly the position you hold is one many people do, a very condescending one that is also based more in ignorance then understanding.
Oscar Wilde said "it's a hard thing to understand but the most important things in life to learn cant be taught"
The bible, the "Torah" is a teaching it's what Torah means, who you are at the end of that teaching if it's even possible to "end" not even you can say. But you need a mind ready to even begin that journey.
I'll make a final point and refernce from something Jordan Pererson spoke of.
The Noah story is the story where mankind becomes corrupt so God sends a flood. And there is a link drawn in this story to corruption and floods.
When new Orleans was flooded a few years back it happened because corrupt politicians for decades had stopped spending money on Levy defenses.
Hence a lesson the bible had to teach, that corruption leads to disasters was certainly not learnt or understood by the politicians involved.
Food for thought...
And the answer to your question is the other way round, why wouldn't they...
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 05:48:00
“Here’s the message: People change. I changed. Look at me. My heart changed. On something I never thought it would. So why not him? That’s where my faith comes in. Looking at him, I asked, ‘Can God do the impossible, really? What if he’s a sociopath? I heard they can never get better. Can God change the heart of this person?’ ”
She pauses, as if to suggest that yes, of course, hearts can be changed."
Finish reading this story. Go ahead and slam Christ to your heart's content. Never mention his kindness. Ignore His forgiving nature, his requirements for those who follow him to forgive. He was Virtue Incarnate. He doesn't exist? Learn what He does in the lives of the killer and the sister of the woman he shot dead without cause.
https://www.northwestern.edu/magazine/summer2015/feature/forgiven-public-defender-jeanne-bishop.html
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 05:57:23
Post by: alancalverd on 04/04/2020 09:02:01
Here’s the message: People change.So we should base our judgements on what we hope somebody might become, rather than what he actually did? It would certainly simplify the whole process of criminal justice - why bother with arrest, trial and punishment?
Quote
“The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”but not enough to prevent them starving, by definition. So how is that an advantage? Advantage over what?
Post by: jfoldbar on 04/04/2020 09:16:21
yet the scientific truth and religious truthreligion has truth?
2 pages effectively that discuss the creation of the world2 pages that are are not entirely accurate
how we should live? how should we treat others? What is the nature of evil or sin?well, i guess so. but if we based our moral choices on what is written in the bible well we would be acting as though they did in the spanish inquisition. id rather live my life actually by moral code rather than the moral(immoral) code of the bible
The bible is concerned with human interaction, peace, justice, life.as above
While science can say how things are it will never tell you how to live save some dietary suggestions.
Again meaningless in this regardwell, i guess if one just uses the bible as a kind of moral storybook like the boy that cried wolf or 3 little pigs, then yes this is meaningless.
but so many people try to claim that the bible is so much more. some even make the claim that its accurate in some kind of real life sense.
Not at all, I highly recommend you listen to some of the lectures on the psychological significance of the biblical stories given by Jorden Petersonpretty much as above
Again this a highly simplistic view of religion and faith.care to enlighten on a more realistic view then?
And never will it because as I suggested before that is not what the bible is interested in.true there are many parts that are stories of past events. there are historical things throughout it. and from all these stories we are supposed to derive some meaning to our lives.
but what about when the stories are just plain wrong. what meaning do we derive from that? the story, or the wrongness?
Sadly the position you hold is one many people do, a very condescending one that is also based more in ignorance then understanding.please elaborate
The Noah story is the story where mankind becomes corrupt so God sends a flood. And there is a link drawn in this story to corruption and floods.from a viewpoint of a moral wise story for humans to learn from (just like the boy that cried wolf) i agree with this.
When new Orleans was flooded a few years back it happened because corrupt politicians for decades had stopped spending money on Levy defenses.
but many people believe this actually happened.
why wouldn't theyjust like above, if one uses its stories in the same way they use little red riding hood then i see merit it that.
but to use it as a whole as some kind of 'encyclopedia' for all of lifes challenges is misleading and serves no purpose.
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 09:40:10
Here’s the message: People change.So we should base our judgements on what we hope somebody might become, rather than what he actually did? It would certainly simplify the whole process of criminal justice - why bother with arrest, trial and punishment? No.Quote“The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”but not enough to prevent them starving, by definition. So how is that an advantage? Advantage over what?
We could eliminate hunger if we wanted to. Dylan wrote, "you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it."
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 10:02:51
Here’s the message: People change.So we should base our judgements on what we hope somebody might become, rather than what he actually did? It would certainly simplify the whole process of criminal justice - why bother with arrest, trial and punishment? No.Quote“The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”but not enough to prevent them starving, by definition. So how is that an advantage? Advantage over what?
We could eliminate hunger if we wanted to. Dylan wrote, "you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it."
If you haven't seen it, Anastasia with Ingrid Bergman, Helen Hayes and Yul Brynner will explain the why. An amnesiac who may be a member of the Romanov Dynasty realizes that love is the key to life not riches, position, status, etc.
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 10:18:02
Speaking of "The Romanovs, The Real History of the Russian Dynasty" is excellent.Here’s the message: People change.So we should base our judgements on what we hope somebody might become, rather than what he actually did? It would certainly simplify the whole process of criminal justice - why bother with arrest, trial and punishment? No.Quote“The poor have one advantage. At least they know when they are loved for themselves.”but not enough to prevent them starving, by definition. So how is that an advantage? Advantage over what?
We could eliminate hunger if we wanted to. Dylan wrote, "you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it."
If you haven't seen it, Anastasia with Ingrid Bergman, Helen Hayes and Yul Brynner will explain the why. An amnesiac who may be a member of the Romanov Dynasty realizes that love is the key to life not riches, position, status, etc.
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/04/2020 10:54:49
I hate bullies. I have hated them my whole life, even as a little kid, and go out of my way to support anyone who is mistreated.So, what's your take on someone who will condemn you to eternal torment if you don't worship Him?
Is it possible to be more of a bully than that?
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 11:46:23
I hate bullies. I have hated them my whole life, even as a little kid, and go out of my way to support anyone who is mistreated.So, what's your take on someone who will condemn you to eternal torment if you don't worship Him?
Is it possible to be more of a bully than that?
What do you think? Apparently you ask those questions based on your understanding of what scripture says. (Excellent questions, BTW) No?
If so, how do you reconcile a god like that with what the scripture says about Jesus sacrificing his life out of his love for us?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/04/2020 12:11:32
If so, how do you reconcile a god like that with what the scripture says about Jesus sacrificing his life out of his love for us?Easy.
It's a made up story.
We even know who did the latest major bit of editing- (to try to remove some of the inconsistencies).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Given that we know which bunch of blokes made it up, why do you think it's anything but made up?
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 12:31:10
Then why refer to it? And, why mention hell and not Christ's painful bloody sacrifice? That's what I don't get.If so, how do you reconcile a god like that with what the scripture says about Jesus sacrificing his life out of his love for us?Easy.
It's a made up story.
We even know who did the latest major bit of editing- (to try to remove some of the inconsistencies).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Given that we know which bunch of blokes made it up, why do you think it's anything but made up?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/04/2020 12:33:27
not Christ's painful bloody sacrifice?I'm fairly sure I did mention that he said God had abandoned him.
Look at the context in which I referred to it.
why do you think it's anything but made up?
Post by: jeffreyH on 04/04/2020 12:42:16
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 12:52:26
Berean Study Bible
How does that make any sense?
God is complex. Einstein said above all he wanted to know God's thoughts. Me too.
I love him not because He tells me to and He does tell me to, no question. But, why should I? Who is he to tell me to love him? How can I conjure up any love for him? Who is he, period? How am I suppose to know who he is?
There is the God as revealed in the bible with the use of words and I can read about him and even study his thoughts as they are found on paper.
How entirely different is my comprehension of, is my "knowing" that individual once I've met him, spent time with him, experienced being in his presence? Completely different Person. I have no choice but to love him because of his infinite love for me. I can't help but worship him. I want to worship the guy because he's unbelievably good, and kind, and cool.
This is what is so difficult to explain. HE is alive. He is present. He is real. He is close. He has a personality. We can know him, we can experience him like we can anyone, even better, in fact. He is the God who is our Dad, our friend, our savior, our companion. He never leaves us. We become literally his own children.
Post by: jeffreyH on 04/04/2020 12:57:40
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 13:09:30
Hey, nice talking with you. We can agree to disagree. There isn't much more to say. You are grounded in your beliefs and I am too. So, we disagree. We can discuss lots of other things.If so, how do you reconcile a god like that with what the scripture says about Jesus sacrificing his life out of his love for us?Easy.
It's a made up story.
We even know who did the latest major bit of editing- (to try to remove some of the inconsistencies).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Given that we know which bunch of blokes made it up, why do you think it's anything but made up?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/04/2020 13:45:35
You, no one, including God, can force someone to love them.So, not that omnipotent then.
Sounds like a design flaw to me.
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/04/2020 13:47:50
Hey, nice talking with you. We can agree to disagree.Do you realise that it isn't me that you disagree with?
You are disagreeing with the evidence.
We can discuss lots of other things.Wel... sort of.
But since I know that you don't agree with evidence, and this is a science web site, it's not clear that the discussions will be any good.
Post by: alancalverd on 04/04/2020 15:10:39
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 15:18:12
I have finally found a place to live, just like I never could before
And I know I don’t have much to give, but soon I’ll open any door.
Everybody knows the secret, everybody knows the score.
I have finally found a place to live, in the presence of the Lord
Clapton
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 15:23:13
And if my love is real
And how I know I’ll make it through
And they, they look at me and frown
They’d like to drive me from this town
They don’t want me around
’Cause I believe in you
They show me to the door
They say don’t come back no more
’Cause I don’t be like they’d like me to
And I walk out on my own
A thousand miles from home
But I don’t feel alone
’Cause I believe in you
I believe in you even through the tears and the laughter
I believe in you even though we be apart
I believe in you even on the morning after
Oh, when the dawn is nearing
Oh, when the night is disappearing
Oh, this feeling is still here in my heart
Don’t let me drift too far
Keep me where you are
Where I will always be renewed
And that which you’ve given me today
Is worth more than I could pay
And no matter what they say
I believe in you
I believe in you when winter turn to summer
I believe in you when white turn to black
I believe in you even though I be outnumbered
Oh, though the earth may shake me
Oh, though my friends forsake me
Oh, even that couldn’t make me go back
Don’t let me change my heart
Keep me set apart
From all the plans they do pursue
And I, I don’t mind the pain
Don’t mind the driving rain
I know I will sustain
’Cause I believe in you
Dylan
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 18:34:41
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 18:53:33
It is quite a strange, even bizarre, phenomena that someone who never lived cultivates such love and devotion for Himself thousands of years after it was reported that he never was.What we can say about him, who never was, with great certainty is that none of his contemporaries had a thing to say about him. Very odd.
For a perfect example of what no one said: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life."
Neither did anyone contribute this: "The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us."
Or this: "We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ."
Or this: We write these things so that our joy may be complete. And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.…
Or this: If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
Apparently, there were phonies back in the day who pretended to be His disciples, even though He never lived. They considered themselves all that, just like charlatans have ever since he never was. Seems that other misled souls called them out on it. In essence they told them they had no fellowship with God-Man if they were jerks using his name for their own benefit, kinda like today and throughout the entire 2,000 years since he began not existing.
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 19:21:34
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 19:37:55
2 Stephen answered:
Friends, listen to me. Our glorious God appeared to our ancestor Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he had moved to Haran. 3 God told him, “Leave your country and your relatives and go to a land that I will show you.” 4 Then Abraham left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran." So he goes into the history of these chosen people, ties their history into this one who wasn't and they went nuts and eliminated good old Steve because they had already killed the leader of this sect-though he wasn't in the first place. They didn't want to hear any more about nobody..
At that time the church in Jerusalem suffered terribly. All of the Lord’s followers, except the apostles, were scattered everywhere in Judea and Samaria. Saul started making a lot of trouble for the church. He went from house to house, arresting men and women and putting them in jail.
He merely played along all the while knowing this messiah guy wasn't real. He saw a business opportunity down the road if he played his cards right.
Post by: jfoldbar on 04/04/2020 20:02:36
is my "knowing" that individualthe thing with jesus, (or anything else in the bible) is you dont 'know' they exist, you 'believe' they exist. they are 2 different things
Post by: jfoldbar on 04/04/2020 20:07:50
Hey, nice talking with you. We can agree to disagree.ditto
Do you realise that it isn't me that you disagree with?
You are disagreeing with the evidence.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 04/04/2020 20:59:42
People ressurected by jesus - 0
Years of living in plague filled misery since jesus 1600
Separation of religion from law 400 years ago
People saved from malaria by jesus 0
People saved by science from malaria over 1 billion
Dont marry your sister !
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 21:20:55
The strategy to try to force believers into coughing up all their evidence is old, worn out, ineffective and boring. Asked repeatedly for what is acceptable evidence, the best you ever offer are links. You think we don't see through that?
No discussion is entered into. You want to be in a position to dismiss out of hand whatever may be presented to you. It's not as though we don't recognize this as your repeated approach to avoid an honest exchange of ideas. Face it.
You haven't been persuasive. Real Christians are not fooled by this manipulation as you can clearly tell after decades of failure to move us. The sad part is that you pretend to be interested, genuinely, in these matters. In reality, your interest has nothing to do with learning about Christ and that is a pity. Your wish to confound Christians with a phony debate may give you a thrill, but Christians are not the ones losing. I get that you think so, but you are falling for your own ruse.
Dear God, do whatever is within your power to satisfy their deepest longings, their deepest needs.
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 21:29:36
is my "knowing" that individualthe thing with jesus, (or anything else in the bible) is you dont 'know' they exist, you 'believe' they exist. they are 2 different things
That is a perfectly legitimate conclusion for you. You don't need to make any further inquiries.
Post by: duffyd on 04/04/2020 21:44:47
Post by: Petrochemicals on 04/04/2020 21:53:56
There's enough evidence to test him. More than enough credible proof that He is, to encourage anyone who is interested, sincerely interested, to pray Him and to ask him to reveal himself.No
The strategy to try to force believers into coughing up all their evidence is old, worn out, ineffective and boring. Asked repeatedly for what is acceptable evidence, the best you ever offer are links. You think we don't see through that?
No discussion is entered into. You want to be in a position to dismiss out of hand whatever may be presented to you. It's not as though we don't recognize this as your repeated approach to avoid an honest exchange of ideas. Face it.
You haven't been persuasive. Real Christians are not fooled by this manipulation as you can clearly tell after decades of failure to move us. The sad part is that you pretend to be interested, genuinely, in these matters. In reality, your interest has nothing to do with learning about Christ and that is a pity. Your wish to confound Christians with a phony debate may give you a thrill, but Christians are not the ones losing. I get that you think so, but you are falling for your own ruse.
Dear God, do whatever is within your power to satisfy their deepest longings, their deepest needs.
Post by: jfoldbar on 04/04/2020 21:54:11
That is a perfectly legitimate conclusion for you. You don't need to make any further inquiries.true, i no longer enquire whether the bible is true or not. i accept the fact that its not. just like i accept that 1+1=2, regardless how i feel about it.
the thing that i still enquire about though is why others ignore the fact(s) and still choose the 'believe' option. do those people also choose the 'believe' option with 1+1?
what i mean is, for someone to believe the bible that means he is a basic ignorer of facts. does he also ignore other facts in his life? does he ignore the car speedo while driving, does he ignore the ingredients of a food, does he ignore his bank balance figure while shopping? this is the stuff that boggles my mind.
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 00:24:15
“In the privacy of my room, I begged for help. I had no notion who I thought I was talking to, I just knew that I had come to the end of my tether … and, getting down on my knees, I surrendered. Within a few days I realized that … I had found a place to turn to, a place I’d always known was there but never really wanted, or needed, to believe in. From that day until this, I have never failed to pray in the morning, on my knees, asking for help, and at night, to express gratitude for my life and, most of all, for my sobriety. I choose to kneel because I feel I need to humble myself when I pray, and with my ego, this is the most I can do. If you are asking why I do all this, I will tell you … because it works, as simple as that.”
I have finally found a place to live, just like I never could before
And I know I don’t have much to give, but soon I’ll open any door.
Everybody knows the secret, everybody knows the score.
I have finally found a place to live, in the presence of the Lord
Clapton
Eric, where are your critics?
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 00:28:49
They ask me how I feel
And if my love is real
And how I know I’ll make it through
And they, they look at me and frown
They’d like to drive me from this town
They don’t want me around
’Cause I believe in you
They show me to the door
They say don’t come back no more
’Cause I don’t be like they’d like me to
And I walk out on my own
A thousand miles from home
But I don’t feel alone
’Cause I believe in you
I believe in you even through the tears and the laughter
I believe in you even though we be apart
I believe in you even on the morning after
Oh, when the dawn is nearing
Oh, when the night is disappearing
Oh, this feeling is still here in my heart
Don’t let me drift too far
Keep me where you are
Where I will always be renewed
And that which you’ve given me today
Is worth more than I could pay
And no matter what they say
I believe in you
I believe in you when winter turn to summer
I believe in you when white turn to black
I believe in you even though I be outnumbered
Oh, though the earth may shake me
Oh, though my friends forsake me
Oh, even that couldn’t make me go back
Don’t let me change my heart
Keep me set apart
From all the plans they do pursue
And I, I don’t mind the pain
Don’t mind the driving rain
I know I will sustain
’Cause I believe in you
Dylan
Bob, Thanks for your willingness to express your feelings about Jesus. I know you took heat for it, but you set your face like a flint. Love you boy.
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 00:39:44
Many are adamant that there is no evidence for his existence, but they aren't convincing. If you would like to share a viable theory, please don't hesitate.
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/04/2020 00:47:00
If anyone would care to explain why God doesn't exist,A bloke named William of Occam did that a while back.
You seem to have missed the point.
It's not up to us to waste time trying to prove a negative.
It's your job to show that He does.
Many are adamant that there is no evidence for his existence, but they aren't convincing.OK, show the evidence...
Otherwise, it's clear that those who say there's no evidence are pretty convincingly right..
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/04/2020 00:50:36
Bob, Thanks for your willingness to express your feelings about Jesus.I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
if God's on our side
He'll stop the next war
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 01:20:12
Someone else?
No one?
Again, I'm happy to analyze a new theory if it has substance.
Anyone?
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 01:28:05
Dear god is this still going ?1. 0 resurrected by jesus
People ressurected by jesus - 0
Years of living in plague filled misery since jesus 1600
Separation of religion from law 400 years ago
People saved from malaria by jesus 0
People saved by science from malaria over 1 billion
Dont marry your sister !
Can you support that with credible evidence? Thanks
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 01:35:54
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 01:42:38
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Can you find comparable speeches anywhere that were composed before this was written for the N.T.?
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 01:50:42
Did they hope to fool their peers from the start or did they realize it would take years to publish plenty of copies and by that point, everyone who was living at the time, who they tossed into the narrative, would be long gone and they wouldn't face much scrutiny?
Post by: jfoldbar on 05/04/2020 02:24:19
If anyone would care to explain why God doesn't exist, I'd enjoy reviewing your theories and data.this thread is about the invalidity of the bible, not whether god does or doesnt exist. thats the next thread down.
Many are adamant that there is no evidence for his existence, but they aren't convincing. If you would like to share a viable theory, please don't hesitate.
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 10:32:43
"well, i guess so. but if we based our moral choices on what is written in the bible well we would be acting as though they did in the spanish inquisition. id rather live my life actually by moral code rather than the moral(immoral) code of the bible."
What does the bible say we should do, as they did in the Inquisition?
Post by: jfoldbar on 05/04/2020 10:45:11
What does the bible say we should do, as they did in the Inquisition?according to them, it does.
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 11:17:31
What does the bible say we should do, as they did in the Inquisition?according to them, it does.
What I mean is this: what things did the bible tell the people who conducted the Inquisition they were supposed to do that we as Christians are to do as well? ?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/04/2020 12:38:57
Thanks Bored. We have heard those objections for years.And, if you were acting rationally, you would either refute them, or you would accept them.
But you haven't- even though, as you say, you have had years to do so.
So, since you have a multi-year track record of not being rational, what are you doing on a science discussion forum?
Post by: alancalverd on 05/04/2020 17:19:35
Did the guys who penned the N.T. intend on selling it as a non-fiction series initially?Nobody "penned the NT", or ever claimed to. It's a random collection of books and letters of vague provenance, collated edited and translated at various times for the benefit of whoever paid for the work.
It's worth remembering that it was supposed to be secret magic
Quote
the religious ferment caused by Wycliffe's Bible in the late 14th century led to the death penalty for anyone found in unlicensed possession of Scripture in Englishwith Tyndale executed in 1536 for daring to translate a bunch of Hebrew and Greek texts into English.
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 23:12:52
Did the guys who penned the N.T. intend on selling it as a non-fiction series initially?Nobody "penned the NT", or ever claimed to. It's a random collection of books and letters of vague provenance, collated edited and translated at various times for the benefit of whoever paid for the work.
It's worth remembering that it was supposed to be secret magic
When you make ridiculous claims, you would do well to be prepared to run like mad or to support said nonsense with intelligent reasons.
On your mark
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 23:20:13
Did the guys who penned the N.T. intend on selling it as a non-fiction series initially?Nobody "penned the NT", or ever claimed to. It's a random collection of books and letters of vague provenance, collated edited and translated at various times for the benefit of whoever paid for the work.
It's worth remembering that it was supposed to be secret magic
When you make ridiculous claims, you would do well to be prepared to run like mad or to support said nonsense with intelligent reasons.
On your mark
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 23:24:05
Dear god is this still going ?1. 0 resurrected by jesus
People ressurected by jesus - 0
Years of living in plague filled misery since jesus 1600
Separation of religion from law 400 years ago
People saved from malaria by jesus 0
People saved by science from malaria over 1 billion
Dont marry your sister !
Can you support that with credible evidence? Thanks
No.
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 23:25:17
What does the bible say we should do, as they did in the Inquisition?according to them, it does.
What I mean is this: what things did the bible tell the people who conducted the Inquisition they were supposed to do that we as Christians are to do as well? ?
Nothing
Post by: duffyd on 05/04/2020 23:31:45
Did the guys who penned the N.T. intend on selling it as a non-fiction series initially?Nobody "penned the NT", or ever claimed to. It's a random collection of books and letters of vague provenance, collated edited and translated at various times for the benefit of whoever paid for the work.
It's worth remembering that it was supposed to be secret magic
Quotethe religious ferment caused by Wycliffe's Bible in the late 14th century led to the death penalty for anyone found in unlicensed possession of Scripture in Englishwith Tyndale executed in 1536 for daring to translate a bunch of Hebrew and Greek texts into English.
If you get a chance to answer my question and to confirm your claim, that would be great.
I hope the people who refuse Christ's offer carefully, carefully think about what they are doing. Sounding like you won a debate, sounding cool or bad or whatever, means very little when you die. Your death is around the corner and death is pretty final.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 06/04/2020 00:51:25
I know no one resurrected by christ, no one i know has heard of this. Its never made the news. Promises promises and no honouring of them. I cannot prove somethingincorrect that refuses to exist.Dear god is this still going ?1. 0 resurrected by jesus
People ressurected by jesus - 0
Years of living in plague filled misery since jesus 1600
Separation of religion from law 400 years ago
People saved from malaria by jesus 0
People saved by science from malaria over 1 billion
Dont marry your sister !
Can you support that with credible evidence? Thanks
No.
Post by: duffyd on 06/04/2020 01:04:33
From a humanitarian point, are you ok Duffy, should we contact the relevant authorities ? I mean your answering yourself.I know no one resurrected by christ, no one i know has heard of this. Its never made the news. Promises promises and no honouring of them. I cannot prove somethingincorrect that refuses to exist.Dear god is this still going ?1. 0 resurrected by jesus
People ressurected by jesus - 0
Years of living in plague filled misery since jesus 1600
Separation of religion from law 400 years ago
People saved from malaria by jesus 0
People saved by science from malaria over 1 billion
Dont marry your sister !
Can you support that with credible evidence? Thanks
No.
Yea. If you don't mind. Hurry! I've got loonie tunes on here saying Christ doesn't take his own to heaven when they die. Hurry
But, not as a humanitarian type thing. See if you can find an outfit that wants a fresh cadaver. I refuse to pay somebody to throw my carcass in an expensive hole someplace. Again, you're alright dude.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 06/04/2020 01:42:12
What is heaven, do the people walk round on monkey legs, eating nuts, and breathing into there lungs, only the christians, only the protestants, only the lutherans, only the male lutherans from the such and such vein..........From a humanitarian point, are you ok Duffy, should we contact the relevant authorities ? I mean your answering yourself.I know no one resurrected by christ, no one i know has heard of this. Its never made the news. Promises promises and no honouring of them. I cannot prove somethingincorrect that refuses to exist.Dear god is this still going ?1. 0 resurrected by jesus
People ressurected by jesus - 0
Years of living in plague filled misery since jesus 1600
Separation of religion from law 400 years ago
People saved from malaria by jesus 0
People saved by science from malaria over 1 billion
Dont marry your sister !
Can you support that with credible evidence? Thanks
No.
Yea. If you don't mind. Hurry! I've got loonie tunes on here saying Christ doesn't take his own to heaven when they die. Hurry
But, not as a humanitarian type thing. See if you can find an outfit that wants a fresh cadaver. I refuse to pay somebody to throw my carcass in an expensive hole someplace. Again, you're alright dude.
Again, I think positivity, projection self service and emplacement, dude.
Post by: duffyd on 06/04/2020 02:39:22
Well, look, you don't have to be all snooty about it. I'm convinced a couple Methodists, maybe an Assembly of God or two, at least 5 Nazarenes and, believe it or not Mom Teresa and one or two other Catholics may show up. Now, did you call anybody yet? I'm dying here man. Let's go!What is heaven, do the people walk round on monkey legs, eating nuts, and breathing into there lungs, only the christians, only the protestants, only the lutherans, only the male lutherans from the such and such vein..........From a humanitarian point, are you ok Duffy, should we contact the relevant authorities ? I mean your answering yourself.I know no one resurrected by christ, no one i know has heard of this. Its never made the news. Promises promises and no honouring of them. I cannot prove somethingincorrect that refuses to exist.Dear god is this still going ?1. 0 resurrected by jesus
People ressurected by jesus - 0
Years of living in plague filled misery since jesus 1600
Separation of religion from law 400 years ago
People saved from malaria by jesus 0
People saved by science from malaria over 1 billion
Dont marry your sister !
Can you support that with credible evidence? Thanks
No.
Yea. If you don't mind. Hurry! I've got loonie tunes on here saying Christ doesn't take his own to heaven when they die. Hurry
But, not as a humanitarian type thing. See if you can find an outfit that wants a fresh cadaver. I refuse to pay somebody to throw my carcass in an expensive hole someplace. Again, you're alright dude.
Again, I think positivity, projection self service and emplacement, dude.
Oh, BTW, do you want me to call anyone on your behalf? You seem a little you know a little half-cracked yourself.
Happy Fesiivus Everybody!! Now, come on Georgie and wrestle your father, Georgie, until you pin me
No Frank. Leave him alone!
Post by: alancalverd on 06/04/2020 05:25:56
Your death is around the corner and death is pretty final.Thankfully.
Post by: duffyd on 06/04/2020 05:34:40
Your death is around the corner and death is pretty final.Thankfully.
If you experienced His Presence for 1 minute, you would be speechless. I would to God I could find the words that would somehow encourage you just to see if He's real. To just give Him a shot. It is so simple and so profound. GOD!! Help me to help others
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/04/2020 08:37:43
To just give Him a shot. It is so simple and so profound.And absurd.
You don't "choose" to believe something.
You can't choose to believe that I'm six foot six.
Either you believe it or you don't.
Post by: duffyd on 06/04/2020 15:40:32
It's a ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic, with a few good ideas for survival in a desert (Leviticus) and an urban society (Mark). A sound basis for workers' rights ("six days shalt thou labor…" "the laborer is worthy of his hire....") and some general commandments that underpin most criminal and civil law. But it doesn't provide any excuse for tithes, pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, self-flagellation, paedophilia, shunning, pilgrimage...… or any evidence for the supernatural or an afterlife, and the reification of the adjectives "good" and "evil" is an insult to the human intellect.Would you be willing to support each of your claims here? Start with "ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic..." if you can. If you decide to go ahead and defend your positions, it will require a significant amount of time. One or two liners won't work.
Post by: duffyd on 06/04/2020 21:47:43
A fundamentalist rabbi crucified for annoying the Romans and the established clergy? Quite likely (we are an argumentative tribe).
"...crucified for annoying..." That is beyond preposterous. That you make that claim proves you don't understand what took place. He was crucified because the leaders of the most religious were fearful of him. And they hated his guts because he was a mirror. Many were drawn to him. They said to one another, what are we going to do with this punk? Crowds are getting enthusiastic. If we don't get rid of him, they probably will demand that he lead them.
He performed miracles on their very sacred holy day repeatedly and right in their faces. They condemned him for working, and ignored the reality that a human being who was hurting was relieved of suffering. They even picked up rocks to kill him on the spot, but they feared the crowds. How far from God's heart they were! In private they began to plot how to commit first degree murder and to get away with it. They were jealous and humiliated so they became killers.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 06/04/2020 23:34:20
Well diversion feigned misunderstanding, social distancing, frivoloty, flipancy, ad nauseum.Well, look, you don't have to be all snooty about it. I'm convinced a couple Methodists, maybe an Assembly of God or two, at least 5 Nazarenes and, believe it or not Mom Teresa and one or two other Catholics may show up. Now, did you call anybody yet? I'm dying here man. Let's go!What is heaven, do the people walk round on monkey legs, eating nuts, and breathing into there lungs, only the christians, only the protestants, only the lutherans, only the male lutherans from the such and such vein..........From a humanitarian point, are you ok Duffy, should we contact the relevant authorities ? I mean your answering yourself.I know no one resurrected by christ, no one i know has heard of this. Its never made the news. Promises promises and no honouring of them. I cannot prove somethingincorrect that refuses to exist.Dear god is this still going ?1. 0 resurrected by jesus
People ressurected by jesus - 0
Years of living in plague filled misery since jesus 1600
Separation of religion from law 400 years ago
People saved from malaria by jesus 0
People saved by science from malaria over 1 billion
Dont marry your sister !
Can you support that with credible evidence? Thanks
No.
Yea. If you don't mind. Hurry! I've got loonie tunes on here saying Christ doesn't take his own to heaven when they die. Hurry
But, not as a humanitarian type thing. See if you can find an outfit that wants a fresh cadaver. I refuse to pay somebody to throw my carcass in an expensive hole someplace. Again, you're alright dude.
Again, I think positivity, projection self service and emplacement, dude.
Oh, BTW, do you want me to call anyone on your behalf? You seem a little you know a little half-cracked yourself.
Happy Fesiivus Everybody!! Now, come on Georgie and wrestle your father, Georgie, until you pin me
No Frank. Leave him alone!
Call a psychiatrist, please, for me, please do.
Post by: alancalverd on 06/04/2020 23:54:54
GOD!! Help me to help othersYou would find it more effective if you were to study something useful like nursing or civil engineering, then help others without invoking a fairy who doesn't seem particularly interested in relieving human suffering.
And if you read your own reply #106 with understanding instead of pointless anger, you will see that far from disagreeing with me, you have simply restated my summary in rather more words than necessary.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 00:28:22
GOD!! Help me to help othersYou would find it more effective if you were to study something useful like nursing or civil engineering, then help others without invoking a fairy who doesn't seem particularly interested in relieving human suffering.
And if you read your own reply #106 with understanding instead of pointless anger, you will see that far from disagreeing with me, you have simply restated my summary in rather more words than necessary.
Well, you tried. God Bless. NEXT!
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 00:53:14
How did they come up with this material?
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Can you find comparable speeches anywhere that were composed before this was written for the N.T.?
As you can see, they couldn't address good arguments. Given their level of education and intelligence, I thought they would have had a few sophisticated, powerful arguments under their belts. It's getting too easy. I enjoy a really thought provoking, stimulating, hard fought debate.
Sweet little Jesus boy,
Made you be born in a manger
Sweet little holy child,
We didn’t know who you was
Didn’t know you’d come to save us Lord
To take our sins away,
Our eyes was blind
We could not see,
We didn’t know who you were
The world treat You mean, Lord
Treat me mean too
But that's how things is down here
Look how we treated you
You done showd us how
We is a trying
Master you don showd us how,
Even when yous died
Just seem like we can’t do right
Look how we treated you,
But please sir forgive us Lord
We didn’t know who you was
Sweet little Jesus boy, born long time ago
Sweet little holy child
We didn’t know it was you
Post by: Petrochemicals on 07/04/2020 01:37:10
Bolloks !How did they come up with this material?
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Can you find comparable speeches anywhere that were composed before this was written for the N.T.?
As you can see, they couldn't address good arguments. Given their level of education and intelligence, I thought they would have had a few sophisticated, powerful arguments under their belts. It's getting too easy. I enjoy a really thought provoking, stimulating, hard fought debate.
Sweet little Jesus boy,
Made you be born in a manger
Sweet little holy child,
We didn’t know who you was
Didn’t know you’d come to save us Lord
To take our sins away,
Our eyes was blind
We could not see,
We didn’t know who you were
The world treat You mean, Lord
Treat me mean too
But that's how things is down here
Look how we treated you
You done showd us how
We is a trying
Master you don showd us how,
Even when yous died
Just seem like we can’t do right
Look how we treated you,
But please sir forgive us Lord
We didn’t know who you was
Sweet little Jesus boy, born long time ago
Sweet little holy child
We didn’t know it was you
https://www.leftlion.co.uk/read/2017/november/never-mind-the-bollocks-court-case-sex-pistols-nottingham/
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 03:43:25
Set me free why don't you babes?
Get out of my life why don't you babes?
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 03:48:59
BoredChemist
That is tragic. Kerosene, take that back.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 05:13:51
I believe you exist. I don't know. Why doubt Christ lived? Why not take him at his word? What is so tough about accepting what millions have attested to throughout the past 2,000 years?is my "knowing" that individualthe thing with jesus, (or anything else in the bible) is you dont 'know' they exist, you 'believe' they exist. they are 2 different things
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 05:26:08
What are the possible answers?That is a perfectly legitimate conclusion for you. You don't need to make any further inquiries.true, i no longer enquire whether the bible is true or not. i accept the fact that its not. just like i accept that 1+1=2, regardless how i feel about it.
the thing that i still enquire about though is why others ignore the fact(s) and still choose the 'believe' option. do those people also choose the 'believe' option with 1+1?
what i mean is, for someone to believe the bible that means he is a basic ignorer of facts. does he also ignore other facts in his life? does he ignore the car speedo while driving, does he ignore the ingredients of a food, does he ignore his bank balance figure while shopping? this is the stuff that boggles my mind.
1. Yes, everyone who believes the bible is accurate is a moron.
2. Those who believe it is accurate ignore facts.
A. He ignores all facts or
B. He only ignores facts as they pertain to the bible.
3. He studies the bible and legitimately understands it is an accurate account of GOD's interaction with people .
Post by: Petrochemicals on 07/04/2020 12:45:21
Just out of interest, do you not find the flood of noah, and the various jewish sects who believe in "watchers", god making the earth in 7 days, to be a eency weency little like the titans and floods of the greeks, ice giants of the norse mythology, the cyclops etc etc. Talking snakes anon.What are the possible answers?That is a perfectly legitimate conclusion for you. You don't need to make any further inquiries.true, i no longer enquire whether the bible is true or not. i accept the fact that its not. just like i accept that 1+1=2, regardless how i feel about it.
the thing that i still enquire about though is why others ignore the fact(s) and still choose the 'believe' option. do those people also choose the 'believe' option with 1+1?
what i mean is, for someone to believe the bible that means he is a basic ignorer of facts. does he also ignore other facts in his life? does he ignore the car speedo while driving, does he ignore the ingredients of a food, does he ignore his bank balance figure while shopping? this is the stuff that boggles my mind.
1. Yes, everyone who believes the bible is accurate is a moron.
2. Those who believe it is accurate ignore facts.
A. He ignores all facts or
B. He only ignores facts as they pertain to the bible.
3. He studies the bible and legitimately understands it is an accurate account of GOD's interaction with people .
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 13:04:40
How did they come up with this material?
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Can you find comparable speeches anywhere that were composed before this was written for the N.T.?
Funny. Nothing. Why? Because the account is so extraordinary and unique no one could conceive of the things he said and did.
Let's bear in mind, the simple-minded believe we live in the universe and in the MW galaxy and a solar system in which a thermonuclear reactor hangs in freezing cold blackness millions of miles from a blue speck where living beasts possess a flesh and blood sponge that calculates how to send tons of inanimate pieces of tin a million miles away to observe that reactor churn and burn 600,000,000 tons of hydrogen every second, yet it is inconceivable that GOD separated some water in a river
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/04/2020 13:08:01
yet it is inconceivable that GOD separated some water in a riverNot "inconceivable"- that's silly. The idea is obviously conceived by many.
Just unnecessary, and unevinced.
Why misrepresent things in that way?
Why bear false witness?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/04/2020 13:09:20
To just give Him a shot. It is so simple and so profound.And absurd.
You don't "choose" to believe something.
You can't choose to believe that I'm six foot six.
Either you believe it or you don't.
Post by: alancalverd on 07/04/2020 13:10:39
And the quote only had resonance with its audience because it was foretold by the OT prophets.
Post by: alancalverd on 07/04/2020 13:14:46
I think I've explained the dubious provenance of the bible, and few scholars of any persuasion would disagree. The rest of my statement is fairly recent history - ask any choirboy.It's a ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic, with a few good ideas for survival in a desert (Leviticus) and an urban society (Mark). A sound basis for workers' rights ("six days shalt thou labor…" "the laborer is worthy of his hire....") and some general commandments that underpin most criminal and civil law. But it doesn't provide any excuse for tithes, pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, self-flagellation, paedophilia, shunning, pilgrimage...… or any evidence for the supernatural or an afterlife, and the reification of the adjectives "good" and "evil" is an insult to the human intellect.Would you be willing to support each of your claims here? Start with "ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic..." if you can. If you decide to go ahead and defend your positions, it will require a significant amount of time. One or two liners won't work.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 13:28:50
That is a perfectly legitimate conclusion for you. You don't need to make any further inquiries.true, i no longer enquire whether the bible is true or not. i accept the fact that its not. just like i accept that 1+1=2, regardless how i feel about it.
the thing that i still enquire about though is why others ignore the fact(s) and still choose the 'believe' option. do those people also choose the 'believe' option with 1+1?
what i mean is, for someone to believe the bible that means he is a basic ignorer of facts. does he also ignore other facts in his life? does he ignore the car speedo while driving, does he ignore the ingredients of a food, does he ignore his bank balance figure while shopping? this is the stuff that boggles my mind.
Absolutely. What we come to understand is that people like Francis Collins don't really exist. A bunch of unemployed, creative boobs with nothing better to do, created Fran and endowed him with a remarkable capacity to fool millions into thinking he was a great scientist even though he was really a moron. Poor guy ignored everything but lunch. You can't make this stuff up.
You do find folks who really nail you once in a while, though. "Duffy, dear, I think you will find the parting of the waters in the OT, not the NT." That really shut me up. I was trying to explain that the universe is complex and unbelievers accept all of it without hesitation, but they get hysterical over God parting the Red Sea or healing a blind person. Those types of things are absolutely inconceivable to these open minded students of all things. GOD doesn't exist. He never did anything worthy of notice. Here's proof there is no evidence for any kind of superior being. Check it out.
Sep 5, 2017,10:00am EDT
The Sun's Energy Doesn't Come From Fusing Hydrogen Into Helium (Mostly)
Starts With A Bang
Ethan SiegelSenior Contributor
Starts With A BangContributor Group
The Universe is out there, waiting for you to discover it.
This article is more than 2 years old.
The Sun is the sources of the overwhelming majority of light, heat, and energy on Earth's surface,... and is powered by nuclear fusion. But less than half of that, surprisingly, is the fusion of hydrogen into helium.
The Sun is the sources of the overwhelming majority of light, heat, and energy on Earth's surface,
If you start with a mass of hydrogen gas and bring it together under its own gravity, it will eventually contract once it radiates enough heat away. Bring a few million (or more) Earth masses' worth of hydrogen together, and your molecular cloud will eventually contract so severely that you'll begin to form stars inside. When you pass the critical threshold of about 8% our Sun's mass, you'll ignite nuclear fusion, and form the seeds of a new star. While it's true that stars convert hydrogen into helium, that's neither the greatest number of reactions nor the cause of the greatest energy release from stars. It really is nuclear fusion that powers the stars, but not the fusion of hydrogen into helium.
A portion of the digitized sky survey with the nearest star to our Sun, Proxima Centauri, shown in... red in the center. While sun-like stars like our own are considered common, we're actually more massive than 95% of stars in the Universe, with a full 3-out-of-4 stars in Proxima Centauri's 'red dwarf' class.
A portion of the digitized sky survey with the nearest star to our Sun, Proxima Centauri, shown in... stars, from red dwarfs through the Sun to the most massive supergiants, achieve nuclear fusion in their cores by rising to temperatures of 4,000,000 K or higher. Over large amounts of time, hydrogen fuel gets burned through a series of reactions, producing, in the end, large amounts of helium-4. This fusion reaction, where heavier elements are created out of lighter ones, releases energy owing to Einstein's E = mc2. This occurs because the product of the reaction, helium-4, is lower in mass, by about 0.7%, than the reactants (four hydrogen nuclei) that went into creating it. Over time, this can be significant: over its 4.5 billion year lifetime thus far, the Sun has lost approximately the mass of Saturn through this process.
A solar flare from our Sun, which ejects matter out away from our parent star and into the Solar... But the way it gets there is complicated. You can never have more than two objects collide-and-react at once; you can't simply put four hydrogen nuclei together and turn them into a helium-4 nucleus. Instead, you need to go through a chain reaction to build up to helium-4. In our Sun, that involves a process called the proton-proton chain, where:
Two protons fuse together to form a diproton: a highly-unstable configuration where two protons temporarily create helium-2,
A tiny fraction of the time, one-in-10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times, that diproton will decay to deuterium, a heavy isotope of hydrogen,
And it happens so quickly that humans, who can only view the initial reactants and the final products, the diproton lifetime is so small that they’d only see two protons fuse either scatter off of each other, or fuse into a deuteron, emitting a positron and a neutrino.
When two protons meet each other in the Sun, their wavefunctions overlap, allowing the temporary....
Then that deuteron can easily combine with another proton to fuse into helium-3, a much more energetically favorable (and faster) reaction,
And then that helium-3 can proceed in one of two ways:
It can either fuse with a second helium-3, producing a helium-4 nucleus and two free protons,
The most straightforward and lowest-energy version of the proton-proton chain, which produces.
Or it can fuse with a pre-existing helium-4, producing beryllium-7, which decays to lithium-7, which then fuses with another proton to make beryllium-8, which itself immediately decays to two helium-4 nuclei.
A higher-energy chain reaction, involving the fusion of helium-3 with helium-4
So those are the four possible overall steps available to the components that make up then entire "hydrogen fusing into helium" process in the Sun:
Two protons (hydrogen-1) fuse together, producing deuterium (hydrogen-2) and other particles plus energy,
Deuterium (hydrogen-2) and a proton (hydrogen-1) fuse, producing helium-3 and energy,
Two helium-3 nuclei fuse together, producing helium-4, two protons (hydrogen-1), and energy,
Helium-3 fuses with helium-4, producing beryllium-7, which decays and then fuses with another proton (hydrogen-1) to yield two helium-4 nuclei plus energy.
And I want you to note something very interesting, and perhaps surprising, about those four possible steps: only step #2, where deuterium and a proton fuse, producing helium-3, is technically the fusion of hydrogen into helium!
Everything else either fuses hydrogen into other forms of hydrogen, or helium into other forms of helium. Not only are those steps important and frequent, they're more important, energetically, and a greater overall percentage of the reactions than the hydrogen-into-helium reaction. In fact, if we look at our Sun, in particular, we can quantify what percentage of energy and of the number of reactions in each step is. Because the reactions are both temperature dependent and some of them (like the fusion of two helium nuclei) require multiple examples of proton-proton fusion and deuterium-proton fusion to occur, we have to be careful to account for all of them.
In our Sun, helium-3 fusing with other helium-3 nuclei produces 86% of our helium-4, while the helium-3 fusing with helium-4 through that chain reaction produces the other 14%. (Other, much hotter stars have additional pathways available to them, including the CNO cycle, but those all contribute insignificantly in our Sun.) When we take into account the energy liberated in each step, we find:
Proton/proton fusion into deuterium accounts for 40% of the reactions by number, releasing 1.44 MeV of energy for each reaction: 10.4% of the Sun's total energy.
Deuterium/proton fusion into helium-3 accounts for 40% of the reactions by number, releasing 5.49 MeV of energy for each reaction: 39.5% of the Sun's total energy.
Helium-3/helium-3 fusion into helium-4 accounts for 17% of the reactions by number, releasing 12.86 MeV of energy for each reaction: 39.3% of the Sun's total energy.
And helium-3/helium-4 fusion into two helium-4s accounts for 3% of the reactions by number, releasing 19.99 MeV of energy for each reaction: 10.8% of the Sun's total energy.
This cutaway showcases the various regions of the surface and interior of the Sun, including the...
It might surprise you to learn that hydrogen-fusing-into-helium makes up less than half of all nuclear reactions in our Sun and that it's also responsible for less than half of the energy that the Sun eventually outputs. There are strange, unearthly phenomena along the way: the diproton that usually just decays back to the original protons that made it, positrons spontaneously emitted from unstable nuclei, and in a small (but important) percentage of these reactions, a rare mass-8 nucleus, something you’ll never find naturally occurring here on Earth. But that’s the nuclear physics of where the Sun gets its energy from, and it's so much richer than the simple fusion of hydrogen into helium!
Ethan Siegel
Ph.D. astrophysicist,
When you think about, unbelievers have a point. There really isn't anything remarkable about our sun, our galaxy, life. No reason to lose control and begin believing in a bronze age, goat herding, mythical figure based on Horus, Vishnu, Superman, Batman, Robin Hood and Frankenstein like those boobs who pray!!!!
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 14:00:26
Post by: alancalverd on 07/04/2020 16:22:06
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 17:24:14
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BoredChemist
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BoredChemist
This is my favorite verse in the good book
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 17:48:52
Would you be willing to support each of your claims here? Start with "ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic..." if you can. If you decide to go ahead and defend your positions, it will require a significant amount of time. One or two liners won't work.
"I think I've explained the dubious provenance of the bible, and few scholars of any persuasion would disagree. The rest of my statement is fairly recent history - ask any choirboy."
I mean, look at the depth of understanding proffered by this humble servant of intellectual integrity. "I already answered that and everybody thinks I'm right on," the genius who insists Christ never indicated he was divine, no one wrote the bible, what they did write was 200 years after nothing happened except a rabbi annoyed a few guys, and, so on. Talk about a masterpiece, an apologetic masterpiece crushing all things Christian. Devastating analysis. Devastating. My friends, as you can tell, Christendom will never recover.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 17:57:08
"Hey, I think there's ladies here."
Why?
"One morning I woke up smiling." reiner and brooks
2,000 year old man
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 17:59:23
Duffy, dear, I think you will find the parting of the waters in the OT, not the NT.
And the quote only had resonance with its audience because it was foretold by the OT prophets.
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Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 18:04:45
For reasons of repetitive antagonism, this user is currently not responding to messages from;Quote from: Petrochemicals link=topic=79132.msg598720#msg598720
Again, I think positivity, projection self service and emplacement, dude.
[/quoteWell, look, you don't have to be all snooty about it. I'm convinced a couple Methodists, maybe an Assembly of God or two, at least 5 Nazarenes and, believe it or not Mom Teresa and one or two other Catholics may show up. Now, did you call anybody yet? I'm dying here man. Let's go!Well diversion feigned misunderstanding, social distancing, frivoloty, flipancy, ad nauseum.
Oh, BTW, do you want me to call anyone on your behalf? You seem a little you know a little half-cracked yourself.
Happy Fesiivus Everybody!! Now, come on Georgie and wrestle your father, Georgie, until you pin me
No Frank. Leave him alone!
Call a psychiatrist, please, for me, please do.
BoredChemist
Post by: jeffreyH on 07/04/2020 18:46:11
How did they come up with this material?
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Can you find comparable speeches anywhere that were composed before this was written for the N.T.?
Funny. Nothing. Why? Because the account is so extraordinary and unique no one could conceive of the things he said and did.
Let's bear in mind, the simple-minded believe we live in the universe and in the MW galaxy and a solar system in which a thermonuclear reactor hangs in freezing cold blackness millions of miles from a blue speck where living beasts possess a flesh and blood sponge that calculates how to send tons of inanimate pieces of tin a million miles away to observe that reactor churn and burn 600,000,000 million tons of hydrogen every second, yet it is inconceivable that GOD separated some water in a river
It wasn't god who separated the water, it was an angry troll called Gretchen. You have to believe in Gretchen or you'll be sent to Scunthorpe. It's in the book.
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/04/2020 19:07:03
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This is my favorite verse in the good book
In particular, this one.
"The site is not for evangelising your own pet theory. It is perfectly acceptable that you should post your own theory up for discussion, but if all you want to do is promote your own idea and are not inviting critical debate about it, then that will not be acceptable."
Your refusal to engage in debate is a breach of the rules.
Post by: alancalverd on 07/04/2020 19:50:30
Christendom will never recoverFor which, many thanks. The world is still recovering from Christendom. It's sad, because Jesus seems to have been a really nice guy with some good ideas, but the appalling things that have been done "in his name " and the wordy drivel that accompanies them, would make him shudder.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 21:44:02
That's you, I'm afraid. You do nothing but promote your desire to put others down and make yourself look like you're are lord of all.Do you remember signing up to the rules?For reasons of repetitive antagonism, this user is currently not responding to messages from;
BoredChemist
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BoredChemist
This is my favorite verse in the good book
In particular, this one.
"The site is not for evangelising your own pet theory. It is perfectly acceptable that you should post your own theory up for discussion, but if all you want to do is promote your own idea and are not inviting critical debate about it, then that will not be acceptable."
Your refusal to engage in debate is a breach of the rules.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 21:50:07
Do you remember signing up to the rules?For reasons of repetitive antagonism, this user is currently not responding to messages from;
BoredChemist
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BoredChemist
This is my favorite verse in the good book
In particular, this one.
"The site is not for evangelising your own pet theory. It is perfectly acceptable that you should post your own theory up for discussion, but if all you want to do is promote your own idea and are not inviting critical debate about it, then that will not be acceptable."
Your refusal to engage in debate is a breach of the rules.
I remember it says in the rules everyone is to be treated with respect. No one is to be harassed for their beliefs. You have done nothing but harass me and you harass your other targets night and day. You push your agenda by twisting what others say to bait them into responding to your point of view.
That's all you've done with me. I have copied every page with your attacks. Every page. You have zero interest in debate.
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/04/2020 21:57:15
I have copied every page with your attacks.Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/04/2020 21:58:34
You have zero interest in debate.Well, that's simple then.
If you respond, that would make it a debate and, according to your viewpoint, I'd lose interest.
Feel free to try it.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 21:59:47
I'd like to respond and point out that if you think he was a nice guy, you acknowledge that he lived and that we have a record of him. Since you believe that, take a closer look at what it is that can be known about him. Find out exactly why you think he was what you claim. Your excuse to reject Him because of what others did or didn't do "in His name" has nothing to do with Him. He doesn't force anyone to do anything and since you realize he was a good guy, you might might be impressed with whom he really was, but without an open mind and genuine curiosity, it won't happen.Christendom will never recoverFor which, many thanks. The world is still recovering from Christendom. It's sad, because Jesus seems to have been a really nice guy with some good ideas, but the appalling things that have been done "in his name " and the wordy drivel that accompanies them, would make him shudder.
But, I can't share my thoughts about that with you because if I do, I'm guilty of pushing an agenda. How wonderful that kind of thinking is.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 22:01:41
You have zero interest in debate.Well, that's simple then.
If you respond, that would make it a debate and, according to your viewpoint, I'd lose interest.
Feel free to try it.
Do the rules require that I engage you in debate?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/04/2020 22:02:48
Incidentally, you can report someone to the moderators if you feel they are attacking you personally.
Pointing out that you are wrong or asking you to demonstrate that you are right is not an attack.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 22:06:26
It wasn't god who separated the water, it was an angry troll called Gretchen. You have to believe in Gretchen or you'll be sent to Scunthorpe. It's in the book
Aye matey. A wonderful example of harassment ignored by the mods. Another example of targeting. It is your agenda to attack certain folks.
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/04/2020 22:10:09
Is it all humour you oppose, or only parody?It wasn't god who separated the water, it was an angry troll called Gretchen. You have to believe in Gretchen or you'll be sent to Scunthorpe. It's in the book
Aye matey. A wonderful example of harassment ignored by the mods. Another example of targeting. It is your agenda to attack certain folks.
Seriously, if you look at that post you will see that it isn't an attack on you. It's an attack on what you believe.
That's an inevitable part of debate.
If you don't like it then you need to ask yourself what you are doing on a discussion forum.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 22:12:43
Another example of a warm contribution to the discussion made an outstanding lifetime member of Mensa.How did they come up with this material?
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Can you find comparable speeches anywhere that were composed before this was written for the N.T.?
Funny. Nothing. Why? Because the account is so extraordinary and unique no one could conceive of the things he said and did.
Let's bear in mind, the simple-minded believe we live in the universe and in the MW galaxy and a solar system in which a thermonuclear reactor hangs in freezing cold blackness millions of miles from a blue speck where living beasts possess a flesh and blood sponge that calculates how to send tons of inanimate pieces of tin a million miles away to observe that reactor churn and burn 600,000,000 million tons of hydrogen every second, yet it is inconceivable that GOD separated some water in a river
It wasn't god who separated the water, it was an angry troll called Gretchen. You have to believe in Gretchen or you'll be sent to Scunthorpe. It's in the book.
Don't misunderstand. It is I who refuses to debate.
Post by: duffyd on 07/04/2020 22:22:02
yet it is inconceivable that GOD separated some water in a riverNot "inconceivable"- that's silly. The idea is obviously conceived by many.
Just unnecessary, and unevinced.
Why misrepresent things in that way?
Why bear false witness?
Why target people? Why not leave people alone? If I thought you were interested in an exchange of ideas, that you wanted a fair discussion without baiting, I would have been interested.
Why try to manipulate? Why do you refuse to address issues with an open mind and fairly? Why push your agenda onto others instead of trying to learn?
Post by: jeffreyH on 07/04/2020 22:48:57
That isn't going to happen. So, no matter how hard you try and however long you try, to beat them down with my your evangelising, some will just ignore you. Others will just laugh.
That is the way of the world. You may find some kindred souls but you share an affinity with the foil hat brigade. Just as misguided and just as dangerous to those with any sanity left.
Post by: jeffreyH on 07/04/2020 22:57:27
Post by: alancalverd on 07/04/2020 23:18:49
I'd like to respond and point out that if you think he was a nice guy, you acknowledge that he lived and that we have a record of him.I have no reason to doubt that he existed. As I said much earlier, he was a radical rabbi (addressed by his friends as such) who was killed for causing trouble. Nothing unusual about that, nor was the radical Judaism he preached beyond the very broad span of our ancient traditions.
From there on, your argument descends into pointless, unevidenced mystical ravings, which others have used as an excuse to perpetrate all sorts of evil deeds as previously listed, plus witch-burning, stoning schoolchildren whose parents worship the same god in a different building, and a whole host more.
Post by: alancalverd on 07/04/2020 23:25:34
Post by: duffyd on 08/04/2020 01:11:56
Post by: duffyd on 08/04/2020 05:21:22
"@duffyd You want everyone else to believe in something you were told was true. Without any evidence. Because the grown ups that taught you that were the ones you thought you could trust implicitly.
That isn't going to happen. So, no matter how hard you try and however long you try, to beat them down with my your evangelising, some will just ignore you. Others will just laugh.
That is the way of the world. You may find some kindred souls but you share an affinity with the foil hat brigade. Just as misguided and just as dangerous to those with any sanity left."
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/04/2020 10:18:04
I can't tell if that's bad editing, or intentionally dishonest.yet it is inconceivable that GOD separated some water in a riverNot "inconceivable"- that's silly. The idea is obviously conceived by many.
Just unnecessary, and unevinced.
Why misrepresent things in that way?
Why bear false witness?
Why target people? Why not leave people alone? If I thought you were interested in an exchange of ideas, that you wanted a fair discussion without baiting, I would have been interested.
Why try to manipulate? Why do you refuse to address issues with an open mind and fairly? Why push your agenda onto others instead of trying to learn?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/04/2020 18:37:13
To just give Him a shot. It is so simple and so profound.And absurd.
You don't "choose" to believe something.
You can't choose to believe that I'm six foot six.
Either you believe it or you don't.
Post by: alancalverd on 08/04/2020 23:16:32
Post by: Petrochemicals on 09/04/2020 03:14:48
I might pick a nit or two with you here, BC. Some Christians believe that Catholics are the spawn of Satan, some believe that of Protestants. Presumably they have a choice in this matter? They certainly have a choice as to how they act upon their belief. Or is sectarian violence part of Christian DNA?As far as I can tell catholics are sure they themselves are the spawn of satan, where as the protestants think that is self indulgent and they need to punish theselves for impure thoughts. About the same really.
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 03:51:34
Now hold on just a minute! You think that's fair? You left out the Holocaust, burning innocent people alive, cannibalism, rape, drowning all infants that survived our pedophile's assaults, starving everyone, hanging innocent men for their clothing, stealing everything from everyone to sell for a profit, cutting up and roasting their bodies to use around campfires to roasts marshmallows (And their tender body parts) and sing old boy scout songs, encouraging Jimbo Jones to commit mass murder/suicide, convincing Heavens Gate to keep buggering on, the assassination of JFK, instigating the Civil War, WW I, WW II, Korean War, Vietnam, The Revolutionary War, the massacre of the Indians, brainwashing Hitler to rid the world of Jewish people, Preaching to Stalin that 20,000,000 Russians had to go. Pushing pornography. I mean you barely got started listing our crimes.
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 04:13:06
P.S. You don't need anyone's permission to be kind to others. If you have to rely on someone or something else to tell you how to treat people, then you are abdicating your own responsibility.Now dog gone it! Why didn't somebody tell me that before? I was ordered to be nice or I would be fined up to $2,000 a day.
Post by: syhprum on 09/04/2020 07:50:20
Post by: Bored chemist on 09/04/2020 08:47:35
I might pick a nit or two with you here, BC. Some Christians believe that Catholics are the spawn of Satan, some believe that of Protestants. Presumably they have a choice in this matter? They certainly have a choice as to how they act upon their belief. Or is sectarian violence part of Christian DNA?Not really.
Did they choose to believe in the creed of Protestantism?
Were they indoctrinated into Catholicism?
Could you choose to believe that I am 6 foot six?
Post by: alancalverd on 09/04/2020 08:54:32
burning innocent people alive,Yes. Part of the rich history of Christianity (Bruno, Tyndale (though they had the decency to strangle him first), Jeanne d'Arc, and too many witches to name here). And that's just victims within the faith.
But your co-religionists can't take credit for all the rest of your silly rant.
Post by: alancalverd on 09/04/2020 09:08:43
Did they choose to believe in the creed of Protestantism?Were they indoctrinated into Catholicism?To the same extent that I choose to shop at Aldi or Waitrose. IIRC churches open their doors and invite people to sample the product before signing up with a loyalty card. FYI Aldi's economy bacon is better - take the advice of a Jew - but you get to fight with a better class of person over the last bog roll at Waitrose.
Quote
Could you choose to believe that I am 6 foot six?Yes. Or 3 foot 2. Belief is acceptance of a hypothesis in the absence of facts. The working hypothesis might be strengthened or demolished by a photograph, an independent and credible witness, or an actual meeting.
The hypothesis that you are the immaculately conceived son of the creator of the universe and at the same time all and part of the triune deity is too absurd for belief, and if we add in the properties of being simultaneously vengeful (OT) and forgiving (NT), it can only be accepted by faith, not belief.
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 09:58:52
You don't need anyone's permission to be kind to others. If you have to rely on someone or something else to tell you how to treat people, then you are abdicating your own responsibility.
I hear ya. BTW, tell me, upon what do you rely to inform how you treat other people?
The craziest thing is this, when I ask a good, on target question, alan and his crowd disappear. Poof! It is one entertaining magic show, I'll tell you that.
Post by: alancalverd on 09/04/2020 10:36:25
upon what do you rely to inform how you treat other people?Do as you would be done by. Let the punishment fit the crime. The greatest happiness for the greatest number. Primum non nocere. These are the bases of every legal system we call "civilised".
The solution doesn't have to be easy or obvious - I spend a day every month discussing the ethics of half a dozen medical research projects with all sorts of experts and laymen. It won't be found in a book of fairy tales.
Post by: alancalverd on 09/04/2020 10:38:15
Arthur Hugh Clough (1819–61)
QUOTATION:
Thou shalt have one God only; who
Would be at the expense of two?
No graven images may be
Worshipped, except the currency:
Swear not at all; for for thy curse
Thine enemy is none the worse:
At church on Sunday to attend
Will serve to keep the world thy friend:
Honour thy parents; that is, all
From whom advancement may befall:
Thou shalt not kill; but needst not strive
Officiously to keep alive:
Do not adultery commit;
Advantage rarely comes of it:
Thou shalt not steal; an empty feat,
When it’s so lucrative to cheat:
Bear not false witness: let the lie
Have time on its own wings to fly:
Thou shalt not covet; but tradition
Approves all forms of competition.
The sum of all is, thou shalt love,
If any body, God above:
At any rate shall never labour
More than thyself to love thy neighbour.
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 10:44:55
I have no reason to doubt that he existed. As I said much earlier, he was a radical rabbi (addressed by his friends as such) who was killed for causing trouble. Nothing unusual about that, nor was the radical Judaism he preached beyond the very broad span of our ancient traditions.
Good football coaches teach something they refer to as "staying on your block" which simply means, keep driving your legs and keep jamming your body with full force into the defender until the Ref blows his whistle. The phrase is just a reminder, a term that stresses the importance to persist, to keep going all out, and not let anything, anything, no matter what, direct your efforts away from that single minded goal.
To wit, I have asked alan and his like-minded teammates to answer my questions which derive from the numerous and outrageous errors they make continuously. I am in no hurry. We have a long time before that whistle blows.
Be aware, and if you are intelligent and a good dude/dudess, you can't miss it: Our intellectual superheroes don't participate in these debates as though they have any confidence in the positions they hold.
Again, my friend, what do you mean he was a radical rabbi? Where did you get that idea? You say his buds said that about him. What did they say? specifically, do you really know? (I don't think you do.)
Again, what radical form of Judaism did Jesus preach? "Nothing unusual about that, nor was the radical Judaism he preached beyond the very broad span of our ancient traditions." What are you saying? Give several examples from his preaching. I don't believe you know.
He preached HE HIMSELF was GOD ALMIGHTY
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 10:57:53
Do as you would be done by.
Indeed, and that principle is biblical. It is prominently featured in your fairy tale book. See how that works? Your very own FT Book stresses just that. It is the golden rule! You just said, "If you have to rely on someone or something else to tell you how to treat people, then you are abdicating your own responsibility."
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 11:07:09
He is God's son, fully GOD, fully man and His purpose, His mission was to die, to become the perfect, lasting and final sacrifice for our sins. Read John. Live in it for a couple years.
Post by: jeffreyH on 09/04/2020 11:08:49
You don't need anyone's permission to be kind to others. If you have to rely on someone or something else to tell you how to treat people, then you are abdicating your own responsibility.
I hear ya. BTW, tell me, upon what do you rely to inform how you treat other people?
The craziest thing is this, when I ask a good, on target question, alan and his crowd disappear. Poof! It is one entertaining magic show, I'll tell you that.
Maybe we disappear Poof! because we have productive work to do and not enough time to devote to discussing fairytales.
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 11:30:58
That is rather funny. You spend endless amounts of time discussing GOD and JESUS, the Bible, on and on. What you meant to say is you love to discuss spiritual matters from and only from your perspective and when someone points out how far off you are in your thinking, you go home crying to mommy. You have a temper tantrum every time you discover that you are terribly misinformed. I demonstrate that to you continuously and you don't like it. No offense, but that's the truth, isn't it?You don't need anyone's permission to be kind to others. If you have to rely on someone or something else to tell you how to treat people, then you are abdicating your own responsibility.
I hear ya. BTW, tell me, upon what do you rely to inform how you treat other people?
The craziest thing is this, when I ask a good, on target question, alan and his crowd disappear. Poof! It is one entertaining magic show, I'll tell you that.
Maybe we disappear Poof! because we have productive work to do and not enough time to devote to discussing fairytales.
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 11:44:57
You want everyone else to believe in something you were told was true. Without any evidence. Because the grown ups that taught you that were the ones you thought you could trust implicitly.Well sir, I am a lot of things but I'm not joining a club where they don foil hats, yet. I noticed how they look on you and I puked. 3 out of 3. You're Out!
Wrong again. Not even close. You are fibbing. You didn't find anything that supports your silliness.
That isn't going to happen. So, no matter how hard you try and however long you try, to beat them down with my your evangelising, some will just ignore you. Others will just laugh.
You now know the future! Good luck bro. Wrong again. 2 for 2
That is the way of the world. You may find some kindred souls but you share an affinity with the foil hat brigade. Just as misguided and just as dangerous to those with any sanity left.
Post by: alancalverd on 09/04/2020 12:53:10
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 14:37:24
I believe JFK was killed by his bodyguard to prevent him starting a nuclear war
only if the bodyguard was a member of a fundamental conservative, redneck, KKK, gun toting, anti-gay, hell, fire and brimstone, anti-women, stingy, religious, sect.
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 14:58:28
how exactly would you get beaten down by evangelization? do they use a prayer hammer? I must say, you have the capacity for paranoia on a full time basis. Hate to tell you, but you're not that important. I suggest a year in isolation, bible reading, prayer, long walks, and plums. oh yes, one more thing. A solid 10 days in a detox and a year in treatment. You need to flush all that heroin, PCP, crack, ludes, you know, the entire soup of drugs you indulge in. bless ya bro. Say hello to Hinckley for me
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 15:31:34
burning innocent people alive,Yes. Part of the rich history of Christianity (Bruno, Tyndale (though they had the decency to strangle him first), Jeanne d'Arc, and too many witches to name here). And that's just victims within the faith.
But your co-religionists can't take credit for all the rest of your silly rant.
Hey, 1. we strangled way more than that 2. We burned alive at least 60 to 80 million. 3. I can assure you that everyone involved in those despicable acts were the finest, the most dedicated, the most devout in every way among those who live for Jesus. 4. I know you don't enjoy reading the nonsense I write, but you always do anyway, so thanks, man.
My GOD,
People, what have you done
Locked Him in His golden cage
Golden cage
Made Him bend to your religion
Him resurrected from the grave
From the grave
He is the God of nothing
If that's all that you can see
You are the God of everything
He's inside you and me
So lean upon Him gently
And don't call on Him to save you
From your social graces
And the sins you used waive
You used to waive
The bloody Church of England
In chains of history
Requests your earthly presence at
The vicarage for tea
And the graven image you know
With His plastic crucifix
He's got him fixed
Confuses me as to who and where and why
As to how he gets his kicks
He gets his kicks
Confessing to the endless sin
The endless whining sounds
You'll be praying 'til next Thursday to
All the Gods that you can count.
That genius from across the ocean--don't ever listen- Jethro T
"many report grave emotional and mental peculiarities in response to the unusual and disturbing sounds emanating from this bunch of old cats" WARNING! Don't listen without adult supervision
Post by: jeffreyH on 09/04/2020 20:26:45
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 20:34:25
You really should read the bible sometime. And keep your brain switched on as you do so.
PAY ATTENTION. THEY DID IT AGAIN:
"The Spanish, Portugese, and Roman Inquisitions between 1500 and 1800 burned fewer than a dozen witches in total." SANDRA MIESEL
Post by: syhprum on 09/04/2020 20:35:26
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 20:42:25
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 20:45:51
sadly many measures were taken to increase the suffering of BrunoLike our favorite commenter who cannot make a sound without making a nuisance of herself.
Post by: Bored chemist on 09/04/2020 20:49:09
Perhaps I should have asked if you could have faith that I'm 6"6'
Yes. Or 3 foot 2. Belief is acceptance of a hypothesis in the absence of facts. The working hypothesis might be strengthened or demolished by a photograph, an independent and credible witness, or an actual meeting.
I'm not just asking if you accept that it's possible, I'm asking you to accept that it's fact. And that anyone who denied it would be clearly foolish or dishonest.
That's the sort of "belief" that's needed here.
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 21:01:48
Post by: duffyd on 09/04/2020 21:25:41
Belief is acceptance of a hypothesis in the absence of facts."Belief is acceptance of a hypothesis in the absence of facts." Our local dictionary. That may be your definition but is isn't the definition. Come on folks. You can't be serious. You got nothing. NOTHING.
Post by: Kryptid on 09/04/2020 23:35:42
Like our favorite commenter who cannot make a sound without making a nuisance of herself.
Who are you talking about?
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 01:39:02
Like our favorite commenter who cannot make a sound without making a nuisance of herself.
Who are you talking about?
300 guesses. Miss Delight. She who loves nothing better than to mind her own business and only intrudes when she learns boundaries and that there is indeed a GOD and she is not Him.
Post by: Kryptid on 10/04/2020 01:46:27
300 guesses. Miss Delight. She who loves nothing better than to mind her own business and only intrudes when she learns boundaries and that there is indeed a GOD and she is not Him.
The reason I ask is because I wasn't aware that any women were in this thread.
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 02:32:29
Now, let me ak you a question. Forget the mantra, "Cause there's no evidence" nonsense for 5 minutes and explain why GOD doesn't make sense. Is GOD really so unlikely? I realize you hate him and pay lip service to your doctrine "there's no evidence." So, that has nothing to do with why you reject and hate him. What gives? What is so impossible about there being GOD?
Do me a favor and toss the company bull for 5 minutes and just tell me what's up
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/04/2020 13:47:57
That may be your definition but is isn't the definition.It's pretty close to Google's definition.
"belief
/bɪˈliːf/
noun
1.
an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
"
Also you have falsely attributed it to me.
And you say we are the ones who have nothing...
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/04/2020 13:54:39
Forget the mantra, "Cause there's no evidence" nonsenseOn a science site, the suggestion that we abandon the focus on evidence is nonsense.
You also suffer from the common (among some groups), but fundamentally absurd idea that people hate things they don't even believe in.
Do you hate Voldemort?
What is so impossible about there being GOD?I don't think anyone said that God is impossible.
The one described in the Bible is impossibly self-contradictory.
The big problem with God is that He is unnecessary. He fails Occam's razor.
And, of course, there's the underlying issue that "Goddidit" isn't actually an answer to anything.
Q Where did the Universe come from
A Goddidit
Q Where did God come from
A You are not allowed to ask that.
It's just a cop-out failure to answer any actual question.
Post by: alancalverd on 10/04/2020 15:15:05
You got nothing. NOTHING.On the contrary, some of us are pointing out that your preaching is without sound foundation or demonstrable proof. We don't need anything.
Post by: alancalverd on 10/04/2020 15:20:17
What Jesus actually preached was and is HE IS GODHad he done so, the charge of blasphemy would have been upheld. But: Luke 23:4 So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, "I find no fault in this Man."
You really ought to read the bible before misrepresenting Jesus.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 10/04/2020 19:36:56
im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.because after initial denials, the sientist would be repeatedly harrasses, interfiered with and percecuted by the churchies time and time again until his life where no longer worth living, under pain of death he would be forced to relent and say superficially that he accepts the bible just to please his harassers who are unrelenting in their self appointed positions.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2014/sep/24/martyrs-science-history-galileo-nazi
Post by: Petrochemicals on 10/04/2020 19:38:47
Kinky churches ?sadly many measures were taken to increase the suffering of BrunoLike our favorite commenter who cannot make a sound without making a nuisance of herself.
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 20:23:00
You got nothing. NOTHING.On the contrary, some of us are pointing out that your preaching is without sound foundation or demonstrable proof. We don't need anything.
Is that right? I see. Well, the good news is at least you know he was a radical rabbi. Oh yes. And they killed him cause he got on their nerves. Nothing unusual. Other than that, you can't really say. You don't know who spoke about the pure in heart, the meek and the merciful. Paul didn't get blinded. Pete didn't rise up and shout throughout time that JESUS rose from the dead. Jimbo lied and died cause he thought death was better than life, big brother must know. Matty, Johnny, Bart, Tommy, those guys went along for the ride, didn't have jobs or next of kin. The slick money making publishers got rich for a fairy tale hit. We got fools bigger than Mars. They believe everything except for their scars, fed to lions, cut in half.
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 20:34:43
Maybe they are right after all. I'm too old now to believe in mystery and love and impossibility
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/04/2020 20:35:44
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 20:42:55
Who wrote the pentateuch?Who?
That preacher boy of way out stuff got murdered for nothin much. What was it he said led to nails through his throat? Surely you must know, least that's what you said.
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/04/2020 20:48:04
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 20:50:26
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/04/2020 20:53:01
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/04/2020 21:00:46
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 21:02:48
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/04/2020 21:05:05
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 21:49:40
Well, that's more like it. So that's why they hung him up to die a criminal's death. This half crazy wild eyed Son got himself killed cause they liked what they heard. Rome would be offended if them fellas got their way and hired this Jesus to run the show, he simply had to go;
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 22:04:37
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 22:06:35
don't mind the driving rain
For you I'd do anything
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 22:31:17
They heard you sing
Lennie didn't mean to kill the puppy he loved
Honest George
Curly's wife only tried to help
Lennie is so strong
He's just a child
I didn't mean it Lennie
Let's go to the farm
With Bunnies to love
Look George, I can see it
Bunnies and all
Just like heaven will be
Lennie was the poor, odd, terribly strong misfit who wouldn't intentionally harm anyone, yet he pays the price for the unintended consequences of his big heart and enormous strength, a lethal combination.
All he wanted was a peaceful life on a farm with bunny rabbits and he would be content.
GOD knows our hearts and judges us differently than we do. Is it possible he ended up in heaven, despite his flaws?
The Grapes of Wrath is a powerful look at desperate people at a desperate time.
Post by: duffyd on 10/04/2020 22:38:43
Look how we treated you?
Forgive us Lord
Our eyes was blind
We couldn't see
We didn't know it was you
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/04/2020 23:28:47
Post by: alancalverd on 10/04/2020 23:53:05
effrey go find alan. come back when he and i are through.We are through. You have descended into gibberish. For all I know, you may even be a Republican, and thus beneath contempt.
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/04/2020 23:58:29
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 00:11:30
You see Alan, the more you try to prove you know something about which you are ignorant, the further you plunge into exposing yourself for the boob you are.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 00:35:07
idiots who believed he was the Messiah. (Even these boobs saw him preform miracles, so they had reason to fear the crowds. This guy wasn't some schmuck.) So, they accuse him of being Who in fact He was, hoping Pilate and Fatso Herod would give in--fearing there could be trouble and they were Rome's boys only as long as they kept a handle on this occupied land. Hopefully these fools would be convinced they had something to fear and get rid of him. See how close you get when you understand why they did what they did? The pieces of the puzzle all come together when you "listen" and are open-minded.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 01:54:40
That was uncalled for. You have blasted me with dozens of horrific curse words and accused me of many serious crimes. No problem. My shoulders are broad and I'm used to it. However, calling me a "Republican" is actionable. Do you have even the slightest idea how much damage you have caused? A "Republican!" You called me a "Republican" Well, you have gone way too far. Way, way, way too far.Jeffrey go find alan. come back when he and i are through.We are through. You have descended into gibberish. For all I know, you may even be a Republican, and thus beneath contempt.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 04:58:44
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 10:13:21
Well, you may be right. Whatever this thing is, male or female, or you, she keeps forgetting she ain't gawd.
Now, let me ak you a question. Forget the mantra, "Cause there's no evidence" nonsense for 5 minutes and explain why GOD doesn't make sense. Is GOD really so unlikely? I realize you hate him and pay lip service to your doctrine "there's no evidence." So, that has nothing to do with why you reject and hate him. What gives? What is so impossible about there being GOD?
Do me a favor and toss the company bull for 5 minutes and just tell me what's up
You took what I was trying to say to someone other than you out of context and ranted on about issues unrelated to what I wanted to discuss and I wasn't addressing you in the first place and I already had told you I did not want to interact with you.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 10:22:53
"I don't think anyone said that God is impossible.
The one described in the Bible is impossibly self-contradictory."
I wasn't addressing you and yes they have. I am trying to avoid you. I asked you to leave me alone. You lie and try to drag me into discussing things with you. You are harassing me and I asked you to stop, but you persist.
Please ignore me. Please stop.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 12:59:08
Forget the mantra, "Cause there's no evidence" nonsense for 5 minutes
Calling the importance of evidence "nonsense" is loudly declaring your refusal to use logic.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 14:12:36
Post by: Colin2B on 11/04/2020 14:41:29
Would anyone care to explain who Jesus Christ really was?I’m not sure why you are asking this here. This is neither a religion site nor a history site, all you will get are opinions.
This site, by its very nature, deals with the science of observation, experiment, models and predictions. What you are looking for won’t be found here.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 18:52:57
No matter who you don't want to listen to, nor who you thought you were addressing (in fact you were addressing a forum- if you want to address and individual member- message them instead), you were still making an absurd suggestion.Interesting. So, when you address me, you aren't addressing me but the forum. So, don't threaten to report me to the mods for not engaging in debate with you when I ignore you.Forget the mantra, "Cause there's no evidence" nonsense for 5 minutes
Calling the importance of evidence "nonsense" is loudly declaring your refusal to use logic.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 20:04:04
I tell the whole forum that you are not following the rules.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 21:49:12
The scientific method identifies Who He is. Or does it? That's what I am exploring.Would anyone care to explain who Jesus Christ really was?I’m not sure why you are asking this here. This is neither a religion site nor a history site, all you will get are opinions.
This site, by its very nature, deals with the science of observation, experiment, models and predictions. What you are looking for won’t be found here.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 21:53:04
Yes, that's right.
I tell the whole forum that you are not following the rules.
Ignoring you is against the rules?
The evidence I told him to ignore is the "no evidence" claimed by people who don't see the evidence that God exists. That is just the opposite of what you accuse me.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 22:05:43
The scientific method identifies Who He is. Or does it? That's what I am exploringThat's a perfectly fine topic for discussion.
But it's not the topic of this thread.
Why are you cluttering this thread with it?
Ignoring you is against the rules?Refusing to address valid points means you are not debating, you are preaching.
That's the breach of the rules. It has nothing to do with me.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 22:06:46
people who don't see the evidence that God exists.What evidence?
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:17:30
The scientific method identifies Who He is. Or does it? That's what I am exploringThat's a perfectly fine topic for discussion.
But it's not the topic of this thread.
Why are you cluttering this thread with it?Ignoring you is against the rules?Refusing to address valid points means you are not debating, you are preaching.
That's the breach of the rules. It has nothing to do with me.
I debate. Not debating you is perfectly acceptable. Harassing me is against the rules and you violate them repeatedly.
Why are you debating this here?
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:23:38
The scientific method identifies Who He is. Or does it? That's what I am exploringThat's a perfectly fine topic for discussion.
But it's not the topic of this thread.
Why are you cluttering this thread with it?Ignoring you is against the rules?Refusing to address valid points means you are not debating, you are preaching.
That's the breach of the rules. It has nothing to do with me.
Why are you addressing this issue here?
You made numerous unsubstantiated claims and ignored my pertinent questions where others and I discussed these matters on another thread.That is preaching. I learned it from you.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 22:27:08
Why are you debating this here?Because someone raised it here... that will have been... you.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:27:30
Refusing to address valid points means you are not debating, you are preaching.
You nailed it. I address valid points. You refuse to define evidence. You are not qualified to debate.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 22:28:04
You made numerous unsubstantiated claims and ignored my pertinent questionsWhat pertinent questions have I ignored?
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:28:30
Why are you debating this here?Because someone raised it here... that will have been... you.
You break the rules when you want to.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:30:15
You made numerous unsubstantiated claims and ignored my pertinent questionsWhat pertinent questions have I ignored?
You made them. It is not my job to inform you specifically.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:34:22
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 22:37:41
You refuse to define evidence.Nope.
Here's where I defined it (albeit in another topic)
Evidence is a reason to think that what you say is true.
I have clearly not refused to define it.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 22:38:31
You made them. It is not my job to inform you specifically.Yes it is.
Also, if you don't, it looks as if you admit that you made it up.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:40:47
You refuse to define evidence.Nope.
Here's where I defined it (albeit in another topic)Evidence is a reason to think that what you say is true.
I have clearly not refused to define it.
You play games. Put it in your own words. I told you I am not chasing links. Just define evidence
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 22:45:08
I just did.You refuse to define evidence.Nope.
Here's where I defined it (albeit in another topic)Evidence is a reason to think that what you say is true.
I have clearly not refused to define it.
You play games. Put it in your own words. I told you I am not chasing links. Just define evidence
Do you realise it looks like you are trolling?
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:46:40
You made them. It is not my job to inform you specifically.Yes it is.
Also, if you don't, it looks as if you admit that you made it up.
Don't care how it looks. I am not responsible for all you.
You
"APPEAR" to run away from genuine discussion about GOD and His Son. Why so reluctant? I read everything you wrote and it is obvious you don't know much about these figures
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 22:49:31
I read everything you wrote and it is obvious you don't know much about these figuresNor does anyone else.
That's, kind of, my point.
Why did you ask me to define something in a post where you quoted me defining it?
Was that trolling?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 11/04/2020 22:51:09
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 22:56:54
Evidence is a reason to think that what you say is true.I', addressing these issues as fast as I can. I've been here a few days. I'm learning. You have threatened and stalked me since I got here. "Evidence is a reason to think that what you say is true."
Finally. That was simple but you refused to do it until now. That is pathetic. Pure Power Play.
Pick your thread. "Evidence is a reason to think that what you say is true." I'll meet you there right now.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 23:04:24
I read everything you wrote and it is obvious you don't know much about these figuresNor does anyone else.
That's, kind of, my point.
Why did you ask me to define something in a post where you quoted me defining it?
Was that trolling?
Not true. Why have you threatened me repeatedly, harassed and insulted me and others, why didn't you respond days ago when I asked you to define evidence? I told you I don't do links. You toss that definition in finally and I saw it seconds latter and you accuse me of ignoring you and trolling. All of this will be sent for examination.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 23:09:28
You have threatened and stalked me since I got here.In the real world, it is impossible for me to threaten you
I don't even know who or where you are. There is absolutely nothing I can do to harm you.
I'm not stalking anyone.
I'm replying to posts on a forum.
You can not sensibly put words in front of my eyes and then complain when I read them.
That was simple but you refused to do it until now.That's clearly not true.- the original post is date / time stamped "02/04/2020 20:53:22"
Why do you say things that are not true?
Pure Power Play.No, purely a figment of your imagination.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 23:14:19
why didn't you respond days ago when I asked you to define evidence?I can't recall you asking.
It's possible that you buried your question among some gish gallop and I missed it.
It's also possible that I didn't think you really needed me to define a word when the dictionary does it just fine.
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 23:15:13
Let's go.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 23:16:15
why didn't you respond days ago when I asked you to define evidence?I can't recall you asking.
It's possible that you buried your question among some gish gallop and I missed it.
It's also possible that I didn't think you really needed me to define a word when the dictionary does it just fine.
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
LET'S DO IT. Where?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 23:18:05
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 23:20:19
Do what?
Pick the correct thread for a debate about GOD and JESUS. Let's debate.
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/04/2020 23:23:19
Start a thread if you want.Do what?
Pick the correct thread for a debate about GOD and JESUS. Let's debate.
Obviously, if you expect to get anywhere you will need to clarify a few things.
" debate about GOD "
Which one, I gather mankind has invented over 3000.
Then provide some evidence that God actually exists.
Then define His properties.
That will take you a while.
I'm off to bed.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 23:25:38
gish gallop
No. That's what you do.
You are stalling. Pick the thread where we can debate and not break any rules. Stop game playing
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 23:27:25
Start a thread if you want.Do what?
Pick the correct thread for a debate about GOD and JESUS. Let's debate.
Obviously, if you expect to get anywhere you will need to clarify a few things.
" debate about GOD "
Which one, I gather mankind has invented over 3000.
Then provide some evidence that God actually exists.
Then define His properties.
That will take you a while.
I'm off to bed.
GOOD.
you pick. i don't know this website as well as you. Can't wait.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 23:32:42
Start a thread if you want.Do what?
Pick the correct thread for a debate about GOD and JESUS. Let's debate.
Obviously, if you expect to get anywhere you will need to clarify a few things.
" debate about GOD "
Which one, I gather mankind has invented over 3000.
Then provide some evidence that God actually exists.
Then define His properties.
That will take you a while.
I'm off to bed.
GOOD.
you pick. i don't know this website as well as you. Can't wait.
She could have been cooperative and a decent human being, which tells us much about her. No good reason to deflect, delay, harass, insult, manipulate, twist, gish gallop, act like a three year old. Only explanation is she is afraid.
Post by: duffyd on 11/04/2020 23:40:23
Post by: Petrochemicals on 12/04/2020 02:05:32
Why have you threatened me repeatedly, harassed and insulted me and others? Why didn't you respond days ago when I asked you to define evidence? I told you I don't do links. You toss that definition in finally and I saw it seconds latter and you accuse me of ignoring you and trolling. That's gish galloping and I will send all of it to be examined. You try to destroy this website while pretending to be its savior. All of this will be sent for examination. Let those ultimately in charge decide.It sounds like your trying to get yourself crucified to me
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_playing
Post by: duffyd on 12/04/2020 04:55:30
“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”Why have you threatened me repeatedly, harassed and insulted me and others? Why didn't you respond days ago when I asked you to define evidence? I told you I don't do links. You toss that definition in finally and I saw it seconds latter and you accuse me of ignoring you and trolling. That's gish galloping and I will send all of it to be examined. You try to destroy this website while pretending to be its savior. All of this will be sent for examination. Let those ultimately in charge decide.It sounds like your trying to get yourself crucified to me
Post by: duffyd on 12/04/2020 05:17:02
And yet they murdered him, enjoying it, stripped naked, blood everywhere, his shredded back scraping against rough sawn wood, beard torn out, sharp savage thorns pounded straight into his skull marked by blood streaming down his head and people love to hate his guts.
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/04/2020 10:30:00
Pick what?Start a thread if you want.Do what?
Pick the correct thread for a debate about GOD and JESUS. Let's debate.
Obviously, if you expect to get anywhere you will need to clarify a few things.
" debate about GOD "
Which one, I gather mankind has invented over 3000.
Then provide some evidence that God actually exists.
Then define His properties.
That will take you a while.
I'm off to bed.
GOOD.
you pick. i don't know this website as well as you. Can't wait.
Anyway, let me know when you start the thread.
I presume it will follow the usual rules of evidence.
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/04/2020 10:31:28
Why didn't you respond days ago when I asked you to define evidence?Can you provide a bit more detail there?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/04/2020 10:33:07
Why have you threatened me repeatedly,Nobody here is in a position to harm you.
So any threat is imaginary.
I already told you that. Why do you repeat things after you have been told they are wrong.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 12/04/2020 18:53:01
The third quarter of american football is often the most decisive“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”Why have you threatened me repeatedly, harassed and insulted me and others? Why didn't you respond days ago when I asked you to define evidence? I told you I don't do links. You toss that definition in finally and I saw it seconds latter and you accuse me of ignoring you and trolling. That's gish galloping and I will send all of it to be examined. You try to destroy this website while pretending to be its savior. All of this will be sent for examination. Let those ultimately in charge decide.It sounds like your trying to get yourself crucified to me
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/04/2020 18:55:57
To infinity: and beyond!The third quarter of american football is often the most decisive“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”Why have you threatened me repeatedly, harassed and insulted me and others? Why didn't you respond days ago when I asked you to define evidence? I told you I don't do links. You toss that definition in finally and I saw it seconds latter and you accuse me of ignoring you and trolling. That's gish galloping and I will send all of it to be examined. You try to destroy this website while pretending to be its savior. All of this will be sent for examination. Let those ultimately in charge decide.It sounds like your trying to get yourself crucified to me
Post by: duffyd on 13/04/2020 05:32:35
You threatened to report me to the modsWhy have you threatened me repeatedly,Nobody here is in a position to harm you.
So any threat is imaginary.
I already told you that. Why do you repeat things after you have been told they are wrong.
Post by: duffyd on 13/04/2020 05:42:07
When you and Alan agree on something you take action. Remember? You have stalked me since I first commented here and didn't let up until I told you to back off and even then you kept stalking me. What? Am I making this up? I'm not the only one who complains. Your trademark is baiting others to converse with you. I don't like you, Go away. Stay away. I have asked you repeatedly and you not only ignore my requests, you plow ahead full speed. GO AWAY. I want nothing to do with you. Respect each other. Respect my desire not to have anything to do with you.You have threatened and stalked me since I got here.In the real world, it is impossible for me to threaten you
I don't even know who or where you are. There is absolutely nothing I can do to harm you.
I'm not stalking anyone.
I'm replying to posts on a forum.
You can not sensibly put words in front of my eyes and then complain when I read them.That was simple but you refused to do it until now.That's clearly not true.- the original post is date / time stamped "02/04/2020 20:53:22"
Why do you say things that are not true?Pure Power Play.No, purely a figment of your imagination.
.
Post by: duffyd on 13/04/2020 05:45:53
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/04/2020 12:47:46
They hate him, cleanly, obviously, documented over and over.No.
There is no documentation of any hatred.
If you think there is, post it.
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/04/2020 12:52:52
You have stalked me since I first commented here and didn't let up until I told you to back off and even then you kept stalking me.I have never stalked anyon.
You post stuff in a public discussion forum.
I comment on it.
Your lack of rationality shows up again when you say " didn't let up until I told you to back off and even then you kept stalking me"
Well, which is it?
Did I back up, or did I carry on?
The fact remains that I did neither.
Am I making this up?Yes.
That's why your assertions contradict themselves.
I don't like you, Go away. Stay away. I have asked you repeatedly and you not only ignore my requests, you plow ahead full speed. GO AWAY. I want nothing to do with you. Respect each other. Respect my desire not to have anything to do with you.You came here.
It would have been simple for you to look at the title of the website and recognise that, with your anti-science view, you were not going to fit in.
But you joined anyway, and in doing so agreed to follow the rules which require you not to preach.
Then you started preaching.
Who, exactly, is responsible for your current discomfort?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/04/2020 12:54:54
I pointed out that you might attract the wrath of the mods.You threatened to report me to the modsWhy have you threatened me repeatedly,Nobody here is in a position to harm you.
So any threat is imaginary.
I already told you that. Why do you repeat things after you have been told they are wrong.
I can't influence them.
They are not stupid or blind.If you break the rules they are likely to notice- they may or may not choose to act.
There's really not a lot I can do to influence their decision.
As such, it's not a "threat", is it?
They would only take action if you had, in fact, broken the rules.
Are you saying that you have done so?
If not then what's the threat?
Post by: duffyd on 13/04/2020 14:36:36
I pointed out that you might attract the wrath of the mods.You threatened to report me to the modsWhy have you threatened me repeatedly,Nobody here is in a position to harm you.
So any threat is imaginary.
I already told you that. Why do you repeat things after you have been told they are wrong.
I can't influence them.
They are not stupid or blind.If you break the rules they are likely to notice- they may or may not choose to act.
There's really not a lot I can do to influence their decision.
As such, it's not a "threat", is it?
They would only take action if you had, in fact, broken the rules.
Are you saying that you have done so?
If not then what's the threat?
Say "Hi" to Hinkley.
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/04/2020 14:41:50
Say "Hi" to Hinkley.The Leicester town, or the power station?
Did you consider posting something that made sense, or are you just trolling.
Post by: duffyd on 13/04/2020 14:54:51
Say "Hi" to Hinkley.The Leicester town, or the power station?
Did you consider posting something that made sense, or are you just trolling.
That's alright. I know. Apology accepted. You'll be fine. Take a deep breath. You're in good hands. That's right. You can do it. No, don't give up. Things will get better. You'll see. Ok. Bye-bye. Take care. Take care. Sure. Ok. Will do. Nice knowing you.
Post by: alancalverd on 13/04/2020 14:56:48
The third quarter of american football is often the most decisiveBecause the audience will all be asleep by the fourth.
Post by: Jolly2 on 14/04/2020 00:01:03
yet the scientific truth and religious truthreligion has truth?
Ofcourse, as does philosophy, or meta physics. Each truth has a system of logic that supports it.
Really do not want to get stuck as Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson did.
Inherently your question takes a stance.
Quote
2 pages effectively that discuss the creation of the world2 pages that are are not entirely accuratehow we should live? how should we treat others? What is the nature of evil or sin?well, i guess so. but if we based our moral choices on what is written in the bible well we would be acting as though they did in the spanish inquisition. id rather live my life actually by moral code rather than the moral(immoral) code of the bible
A total assumption. And an inaccurate one. The spainish inquisition were a tool of power seeking to impose its will over the rest. If anything the bible teaches the opposite.
"What is the the true fast? To break the chains and set the downtrodden free" Isaiah
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The bible is concerned with human interaction, peace, justice, life.as above
While science can say how things are it will never tell you how to live save some dietary suggestions.
Is nothing related
Quote
Again meaningless in this regardwell, i guess if one just uses the bible as a kind of moral storybook like the boy that cried wolf or 3 little pigs, then yes this is meaningless.
but so many people try to claim that the bible is so much more. some even make the claim that its accurate in some kind of real life sense.
Jordan Peterson does actually claim that the teaching of the bible about how a person should live match rather well to the psychological data on the same question.
Quote
Not at all, I highly recommend you listen to some of the lectures on the psychological significance of the biblical stories given by Jorden Petersonpretty much as above
A non statement again. I don't see why you bother writing this it's pointless.
Quote
Again this a highly simplistic view of religion and faith.care to enlighten on a more realistic view then?And never will it because as I suggested before that is not what the bible is interested in.true there are many parts that are stories of past events. there are historical things throughout it. and from all these stories we are supposed to derive some meaning to our lives.
but what about when the stories are just plain wrong. what meaning do we derive from that? the story, or the wrongness?
You are deciding what is and is not right or wrong. Bad stories can also teach.
Quote
Sadly the position you hold is one many people do, a very condescending one that is also based more in ignorance then understanding.please elaborateThe Noah story is the story where mankind becomes corrupt so God sends a flood. And there is a link drawn in this story to corruption and floods.from a viewpoint of a moral wise story for humans to learn from (just like the boy that cried wolf) i agree with this.
When new Orleans was flooded a few years back it happened because corrupt politicians for decades had stopped spending money on Levy defenses.
but many people believe this actually happened.
So what? It's irrelevant really.
Quote
why wouldn't theyjust like above, if one uses its stories in the same way they use little red riding hood then i see merit it that.
but to use it as a whole as some kind of 'encyclopedia' for all of lifes challenges is misleading and serves no purpose.
Completely disagree.
'Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself for that is the whole of the Torah'
Post by: Jolly2 on 14/04/2020 00:15:28
I have no reason to doubt that he existed. As I said much earlier, he was a radical rabbi (addressed by his friends as such) who was killed for causing trouble. Nothing unusual about that, nor was the radical Judaism he preached beyond the very broad span of our ancient traditions.
Good football coaches teach something they refer to as "staying on your block" which simply means, keep driving your legs and keep jamming your body with full force into the defender until the Ref blows his whistle. The phrase is just a reminder, a term that stresses the importance to persist, to keep going all out, and not let anything, anything, no matter what, direct your efforts away from that single minded goal.
To wit, I have asked alan and his like-minded teammates to answer my questions which derive from the numerous and outrageous errors they make continuously. I am in no hurry. We have a long time before that whistle blows.
Be aware, and if you are intelligent and a good dude/dudess, you can't miss it: Our intellectual superheroes don't participate in these debates as though they have any confidence in the positions they hold.
Again, my friend, what do you mean he was a radical rabbi? Where did you get that idea? You say his buds said that about him. What did they say? specifically, do you really know? (I don't think you do.)
Where is this text from?
Quote
Again, what radical form of Judaism did Jesus preach?
Karaitism.
Quote
"Nothing unusual about that,
Maybe not to another karaite.
But to the rabbinical groups like the pharisees of the time it was extremely radical.
Quote
nor was the radical Judaism he preached beyond the very broad span of our ancient traditions."
Completely incorrect. Jesus in Mark 7 utterly spoke against the these traditions. These takanot.
Matthew 15.
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What are you saying? Give several examples from his preaching. I don't believe you know.
Just did.
Quote
He preached HE HIMSELF was GOD ALMIGHTY
Show one place Jesus ever said that?
Just one...
Post by: duffyd on 14/04/2020 04:38:41
“In the privacy of my room, I begged for help. I had no notion who I thought I was talking to, I just knew that I had come to the end of my tether … and, getting down on my knees, I surrendered. Within a few days I realized that … I had found a place to turn to, a place I’d always known was there but never really wanted, or needed, to believe in. From that day until this, I have never failed to pray in the morning, on my knees, asking for help, and at night, to express gratitude for my life and, most of all, for my sobriety. I choose to kneel because I feel I need to humble myself when I pray, and with my ego, this is the most I can do. If you are asking why I do all this, I will tell you … because it works, as simple as that.”
I have finally found a place to live, just like I never could before
And I know I don’t have much to give, but soon I’ll open any door.
Everybody knows the secret, everybody knows the score.
I have finally found a place to live, in the presence of the Lord
Clapton
Baby Eric. That's how it works. So simple. So hard to do. The payoff is out of sight. Like nothing we've ever known or imagined.
Post by: duffyd on 14/04/2020 04:54:22
Quote
He preached HE HIMSELF was GOD ALMIGHTY
Show one place Jesus ever said that?
Just one...
[/quote]
"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58). "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Therefore the Jews certainly understood that Jesus was claiming to be God and they sought to kill Him because of it. "'What about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son"? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.' Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp." (John 10:36-39).
Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'" (John 14:7-11, 20).
Post by: duffyd on 14/04/2020 04:58:32
Post by: duffyd on 14/04/2020 05:36:13
Why can't god force someone to love it? Is it unaware of psychology, manipulation or hypnotism? Didn't it create those things? You seem to be able to attach anything to this god. It's almost as if it is a convenient mouthpiece for your own opinions. No matter how horrendous they are. Am I correct? *GO ON BE HONEST FOR ONCE. Go on be honest for once.He said this too and many more insults, "The followers of the desert mythology book are the poster children of the sociopathic religious establishment."
*my emphasis
Take note mods. Is this the kind of respect as required in the rules?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/04/2020 11:08:41
the bible turns out to be extremely accurateLOL
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2013/08/19/an-incredible-interactive-chart-of-biblical-contradictions/
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/04/2020 11:09:33
I'm trying to work out idf this is a childish insult, or an indication that Duffy is losing the plot.Say "Hi" to Hinkley.The Leicester town, or the power station?
Did you consider posting something that made sense, or are you just trolling.
That's alright. I know. Apology accepted. You'll be fine. Take a deep breath. You're in good hands. That's right. You can do it. No, don't give up. Things will get better. You'll see. Ok. Bye-bye. Take care. Take care. Sure. Ok. Will do. Nice knowing you.
Post by: Jolly2 on 14/04/2020 21:50:10
QuoteHe preached HE HIMSELF was GOD ALMIGHTY
Show one place Jesus ever said that?
Just one...
Quote
"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58).
So Jesus claims to have been around since before Abraham was born. How is that him claiming to be Almighty God himself?
Quote
"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Quote rabbi Mordechai Kraft "what is love? When you become me, when I give soo much to you that I can no longer separate between you and me and therefore I see you as a part of me, I love you, we're one"
Oh and ofcourse as you see in John 17.20 ".... may they all be one in us as you are in me and I am in you... that they may be one as we are one"
Quote
Therefore the Jews certainly understood that Jesus was claiming to be God
They certainly did not.
Quote
and they sought to kill Him because of it. "'What about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son"?
Exodus 4.22 "Israel is my first born son I order you to let my son go"
Jesus ofcourse is a member of Israel. John 4.23 "salvation comes from the Jews"
John 3.16 "God loved the world so much he sent his son into the world."
Matthew 5.9 "happy the pacemakers for they shall be called sons of God "
Ergo all Jews are called to be gods children
Quote
Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.' Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp." (John 10:36-39).
Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Exactly jesus represents God fully but to represent someone isnt to be them.
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me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'" (John 14:7-11, 20).
Think about it.
Post by: duffyd on 14/04/2020 23:10:56
QuoteHe preached HE HIMSELF was GOD ALMIGHTY
Show one place Jesus ever said that?
Just one...Quote"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58).
So Jesus claims to have been around since before Abraham was born. How is that him claiming to be Almighty God himself?Quote"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Quote rabbi Mordechai Kraft "what is love? When you become me, when I give soo much to you that I can no longer separate between you and me and therefore I see you as a part of me, I love you, we're one"
Oh and ofcourse as you see in John 17.20 ".... may they all be one in us as you are in me and I am in you... that they may be one as we are one"QuoteTherefore the Jews certainly understood that Jesus was claiming to be God
They certainly did not.Quoteand they sought to kill Him because of it. "'What about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son"?
Exodus 4.22 "Israel is my first born son I order you to let my son go"
Jesus ofcourse is a member of Israel. John 4.23 "salvation comes from the Jews"
John 3.16 "God loved the world so much he sent his son into the world."
Matthew 5.9 "happy the pacemakers for they shall be called sons of God "
Ergo all Jews are called to be gods childrenQuoteDo not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.' Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp." (John 10:36-39).
Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Exactly jesus represents God fully but to represent someone isnt to be them.Quoteme when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'" (John 14:7-11, 20).
Think about it.
He's inside me. I asked Him to come in and He manifested His presence. As God, He was already in me, because He's everywhere. But, inviting Him to live in me a true relationship formed. Listen, interpret the scriptures however you choose. That's fine with me.
I see the same scriptures clearly pointing to His divinity. We can play bible ping-pong forever. You share a verse that doesn't establish He was God and I share one with you that I think does. You've made up your mind. Me too.
Saying He was around when Abe made the scene got the Jews pissed enough they tried to kill Him on the spot. Why? They knew He was proclaiming to be GOD. That's why they decided He had to go. They knew what He meant and they hated His guts. He showed them true spirituality is about helping others, even if it is on the sabbath. And He showed them that truth by performing miracles, left and right, on that holy day.
They were quite familiar with His miraculous powers. They knew He performed many miracles. Even that fat slob Herod heard about his miracles. But, they were blind to the fact that He had to be GOD. No one ever performed miracles like He was. They saw the miracles. Many atheists want evidence. There He was in real time right in their faces and they knew He was doing miracles but they couldn't make the connection. Hatred is like that. Jealousy is like that. Envy, too. And sinful hearts get twisted and hatred can pour out like waste water.
Post by: duffyd on 14/04/2020 23:21:42
Post by: duffyd on 14/04/2020 23:26:33
You, anyone, can pray to receive Christ as his/her Savior and He will come into you. Why won't people try Him out like that to see if He is real or not? Not for lack of evidence. HE can prove Who HE is to anyone willing to seek HIM right now, but you won't. Most won't.
Why? Why always insist on evidence when all they could ever hope for and more is right there inside Him and He is all yours when you pray with all your guts that He will come into your life? It makes no sense, does it?
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 03:09:06
Trying to paint Him and His disciples with a broad brush of perverse insults is guaranteed, as well. Serious debate is deliberately avoided through these kinds of distractions/manipulations. Again, why would they do such things? If they could argue against Him successfully, factually, using legitimate tools, you'd have to expect they would. Otherwise they waste gobs of time, tons of time. But, they refuse. (They really can't and they realize it.) In every way, particularly scientifically, His true identity surfaces especially upon the closest scrutiny.
They had a perfect set of opportunities to present their case and we got practically nothing. Frankly, I expected scientists would fare better, at least their efforts would be more laudable.
This only serves to strengthen our certainty in His reality. It proves how formidable He is as an historical figure and as the Risen Son of GOD.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 03:21:06
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 03:29:07
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 04:15:26
One can reasonably accept it for what it is, though not what Believers claim it to be, with the reservations that the NT, at least, was not written contemporaneously and the whole thing has been collated edited and translated to the point where it represents the interests and prejudices of its editors and translators as much as its original authors.
My favorite example is where the Hebrew version of Genesis states that all animals were created with a soul ("nefesh") but most Latin and English versions do not, in order to justify blood sports. Frankly, if you doubt the authenticity of Chapter One, it's not a good idea to base serious life choices on the rest of the book. So use the Talmud (because the scrolls are copied, not edited or translated) for guidance, and take the rest with a pinch of salt.
You need to work on bible translation and conduct word studies which are fascinating. You should see that your understanding of the verse you reference in Genesis is incorrect.
In terms of historical standards the New Testament is very current and the textual variants add up to nothing that changes any of the basic tenets of the Bible.
Even though you refused to address my question, I will tell you that it didn't take 200 years for the N.T. to be written after His death. Way, way off.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 04:20:53
That is what is so cool about GOD. He can be known!Wrong!
An angel fell from heaven with a broken wing. A couple of lads found him and took him to their local vet who fixed the wing and fed him on ambrosia for a few weeks, then called the lads back to say goodbye.
The angel said "You've all been very kind. What can I do to repay you?"
"Just tell us what God is like"
"Well, she's black....."
God has motherly qualities and if He's black, that's great. Hardy har har. Painting believers as racist, sexist fools is the domain of those who likely honor those very attributes.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 08:24:46
It's a ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic, with a few good ideas for survival in a desert (Leviticus) and an urban society (Mark). A sound basis for workers' rights ("six days shalt thou labor…" "the laborer is worthy of his hire....") and some general commandments that underpin most criminal and civil law. But it doesn't provide any excuse for tithes, pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, self-flagellation, paedophilia, shunning, pilgrimage...… or any evidence for the supernatural or an afterlife, and the reification of the adjectives "good" and "evil" is an insult to the human intellect.
"...and some general commandments that underpin most criminal and civil law..." Is that all? Thousands of years after they were written down, those commandments became the basis for much of civil and criminal law today. That's more than a small matter. It's huge. Think about that. Obviously they knew what they were talking about or the Person Who gave them those laws surely did. Much of the rest of your paragraph is silly nonsense which is why you wrote it.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 08:30:33
The Bible, as generally on sale in the UK, contains a whole raft of begats and begots,The Jews kept very good records. They preserved their history on paper like no other people-group. They were and are God's Chosen people and they left clear historical recordings for posterity. No other group compares, particularly as one identified with God Himself.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 08:51:45
A fundamentalist rabbi crucified for annoying the Romans and the established clergy? Quite likely (we are an argumentative tribe). Virgin birth? It's not unique to the Judaeo-Christian mythology - indeed there have been 14 crucified saviour-gods born of virgins around the world - but it isn't believable either.
You don't know what he preached. How can you call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can you put any label on Him? You know practically nothing about the guy.
What difference would it make if there were 27 million other dudes supposedly born of a virgin? Would that mean that Christ wasn't? Would it diminish His status? There were numerous impossible events related to His birth, life and death. He emerged from the royal line of David and was a descendant of the Israelites through Abe, was He not, just as God promised?
The religious leaders were not in the business of having the Romans murder a fellow Jew who was innocent of all charges. Do you really think they disposed of Him simply because He was a pain in the ass? Think twice. Think about the huge crowds singing praises to Him. No one got a little jealous of the impoverished, uneducated, harmless, "nutty", preacher boy, or did they? What did they accuse Him of doing? Healing, miraculously, on holy days. Excuse me. If your child falls into a ditch on the Sabbath, what good mother/father leaves Him there? Remember Dave and the shewbread?
Jesus replied, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?" They ate consecrated bread. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So, they decided to kill Him. He got on their nerves? I guess, if you're blind.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 09:04:03
"eyewitness" accounts by people who weren't alive at the time.
Piece by piece, step by step, precept upon precept, we will take apart the conclusions you reached. Name an eyewitness who wasn't alive at the time to whom you refer. If you can't, and you can't, and don't answer, then we will throw out that silly accusation for good. We are well on our way to tossing a whole bunch of nonsense you promoted but couldn't support. You did get one thing right. He lived. You bet He did. You have exceeded Carrier's status.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 09:08:46
You care about Him?I'd be playing the piano in a whore house in The Big Easy, drinking port and stumbling to the john.It's what I do for relaxation, but your god seems to have closed the whorehouses with COVID. Pity - they never had this much trouble with syphilis or any of His other creations. But you see I care about people, He doesn't.
Rhetorical. This is fun
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 09:39:41
Even though you refused to address my question, I will tell you that it didn't take 200 years for the N.T. to be written after His death. Way, way off.indeed; 200 years is "way off" it was about 300 years before the NT, as we know it today, was written.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Post by: jeffreyH on 15/04/2020 11:09:48
You don't know what he preached. How can you call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can you put any label on Him? You know practically nothing about the guy.
Wow a classic case of projection. Just couldn't let this one pass. Or do you have a time machine?
Let me rephrase that for you so you sound rational. "I don't know what he preached. How can I call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can I put any label on Him? I know practically nothing about the guy."
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 12:22:07
If I got something wrong, by all means, prove it. You can't and won't, so your response is sort of silly.You don't know what he preached. How can you call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can you put any label on Him? You know practically nothing about the guy.
Wow a classic case of projection. Just couldn't let this one pass. Or do you have a time machine?
Let me rephrase that for you so you sound rational. "I don't know what he preached. How can I call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can I put any label on Him? I know practically nothing about the guy."
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 12:35:59
So your idea of your God is that it is a narcissistic sociopath. Much like Donald Trump then. Why not cut out the middle man and just worship the Donald. He is tangible. We have evidence that he exists. Everything he does is PERFECT!, WONDERFUL!
Ok, so now you have invented the ultimate intelligence out of thin air. Why? Was your argument crumbling? So if I have this right, god isn't all knowing, all powerful. God's just a servant of a figment of your imagination. Wow! It's a convincer
You haven't presented any evidence that supports your argument. You have presented evidence that you are gullible and the useful tool of sociopathic religious charlatans.
It sounds like the God is a twit.
Here we go! So your God wishes people dead. It wants another fictional character to kill them. AND YOU SUPPORT AND PROMOTE THAT! That makes you a terrible person. Just take 5 minutes to think that through. Ask yourself why you hate other people so much. You are happy for them to die. You glorify it. Aren't you just a tiny bit ashamed of yourself?
It wasn't god who separated the water, it was an angry troll called Gretchen. You have to believe in Gretchen or you'll be sent to Scunthorpe. It's in the book.
Guess who?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 12:59:28
If I got something wrong, by all means, prove it.I did. You ignored it.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 13:03:10
Piece by piece, step by step, precept upon precept, we will take apart the conclusions you reached.Well, some of them; maybe.
But what you won't have is proof that there's a God.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 14:55:13
im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.Dr. Collins answers your question, as I said. Did you get a chance to read his book? I guess not. I guess you don't want the answer because by any measure he's a scientist and he believes the bible.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 15:20:38
He is real to me and to hundreds of millions of others. Scientifically, that is evidence that HE is real. Random folks with no ulterior motives from every walk of life, many without knowledge of the others, tell the same story.im by no means a scientist or even highly educated. but the last 20 odd years (since the internet) it always seems to be my hobby to learn about all things science. if i could have my life over i would have studied hard and tried to become some kind of braniac.Dr. Collins answers your question, as I said. Did you get a chance to read his book? I guess not. I guess you don't want the answer because by any measure he's a scientist and he believes the bible.
so in all my reading about all kinds of subjects there is always the same common underlying theme that is there if you decide to see it. that the religions of the world are just wrong.
there is so much scientific and mathematical evidence against the bible that it is just staggering that any educated (scientific) person accepts it. for a laymen i get it. the whole 'feel good' or 'someone watching down upon us' is a very sobering thought. and if you dont know any better than why not believe it. (that used to be me) but anyone that bothers to invest the time to learn about the world around us and learns a bit from each field of science(and maths) can easily see that the bible just simply does not correspond with what we observe in the world. (this is inherently different to the concept of a creator though)
so, given all the knowledge that man has now, why do people still consider the bible as 'more' than a story book
No one spoke as He did. Not even close--unless He's being imitated or referenced. He is completely unique and so are the statements He made. He continuously claimed He was God and proved it through numerous miracles. Even the phrases He used are miraculous. Throughout all recorded history, He alone presented Himself as the One True God and confounded utterly the wisest, most educated, the most elite religious leaders of His day and He does so today, too.
HE proved beyond a shadow of turning that even death couldn't defeat Him. His disciples saw Him, spoke to Him, touched Him, even ate food with Him after He was murdered and buried. They knew He rose from the dead just as He said He would. Assured of His resurrection, they endured terrible persecution for proclaiming that truth and soon they turned the world right side up.
The words HE used have withstood 2,000 years of the most focused scrutiny. Everything He said has proven to be true. Not bad.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 15:29:54
If I got something wrong, by all means, prove it. You can't and won't, so your response is sort of silly.You don't know what he preached. How can you call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can you put any label on Him? You know practically nothing about the guy.
Wow a classic case of projection. Just couldn't let this one pass. Or do you have a time machine?
Let me rephrase that for you so you sound rational. "I don't know what he preached. How can I call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can I put any label on Him? I know practically nothing about the guy."
He couldn't and he didn't.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 15:30:23
Scientifically, that is evidence that HE is real.Or that people are fallible- which they are.
So it's not actually proof.
HE proved beyond a shadow of turning that even death couldn't defeat Him. His disciples saw Him, spoke to Him, touched Him, even ate food with Him after He was murdered and buried.Or, among many executions, the Romans botched one and cut him down before he was dead.
You seem to keep forgetting the balance that is needed in a scientific discussion. You ignore any possible other explanation, and claim that the only answer is Goddidit.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 15:31:49
So, somehow, it matter who points out that you are wrong.If I got something wrong, by all means, prove it. You can't and won't, so your response is sort of silly.You don't know what he preached. How can you call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can you put any label on Him? You know practically nothing about the guy.
Wow a classic case of projection. Just couldn't let this one pass. Or do you have a time machine?
Let me rephrase that for you so you sound rational. "I don't know what he preached. How can I call Him a fundamentalist rabbi? How can I put any label on Him? I know practically nothing about the guy."
He couldn't and he didn't.
That's... unusual.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 15:34:15
Maybe we disappear Poof! because we have productive work to do and not enough time to devote to discussing fairytales.
Maybe not
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 15:36:18
It's a ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic, with a few good ideas for survival in a desert (Leviticus) and an urban society (Mark). A sound basis for workers' rights ("six days shalt thou labor…" "the laborer is worthy of his hire....") and some general commandments that underpin most criminal and civil law. But it doesn't provide any excuse for tithes, pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, self-flagellation, paedophilia, shunning, pilgrimage...… or any evidence for the supernatural or an afterlife, and the reification of the adjectives "good" and "evil" is an insult to the human intellect.
Wrong again in almost every respect
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 15:38:50
B
Wrong again. Virgins sacrificed? You are confused.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 15:44:14
A fundamentalist rabbi crucified for annoying the Romans and the established clergy? Quite likely (we are an argumentative tribe).
You cannot, have not and will never prove that He was a fundamentalist Rabbi.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 15:47:10
As far as I can tell, those are mainly right or, at least, fair comment.It's a ramshackle collection of historical fact swimming in myth and magic, with a few good ideas for survival in a desert (Leviticus) and an urban society (Mark). A sound basis for workers' rights ("six days shalt thou labor…" "the laborer is worthy of his hire....") and some general commandments that underpin most criminal and civil law. But it doesn't provide any excuse for tithes, pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, self-flagellation, paedophilia, shunning, pilgrimage...… or any evidence for the supernatural or an afterlife, and the reification of the adjectives "good" and "evil" is an insult to the human intellect.
Wrong again in almost every respect
Just because you don't like them doesn't man you can dismiss them without justification.
In what way(s) are the statements wrong?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 15:50:03
You cannot, have not and will never prove that He was a fundamentalist Rabbi.Matthew 5:18
says he was a teacher (and since He was Jewish, that makes him a Rabbi) and that He preached that the Old laws were still in play.
That makes him a fundamentalist- at least in that it means he wasn't pushing for change.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 15:50:21
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 15:59:01
I am batting a 1,000 percent.So, we can add innumeracy to your list of problems then.
Truth is tough to defeat.Then try using it, rather than just claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
I have no monopoly.Buy yourself one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/monoply-board-game/114185542332?hash=item1a95fd1abc:g:-HUAAOSwJX5elLlq
. It is there for the examination.Among the things open for examination is your record of failing to address issues that people raise. You just ignore them or lie about them.
Post by: alancalverd on 15/04/2020 16:37:11
A fundamentalist rabbi crucified for annoying the Romans and the established clergy? Quite likely (we are an argumentative tribe).
You cannot, have not and will never prove that He was a fundamentalist Rabbi.
Not my job. Why don't you read the bible instead of spouting drivel?
John 1:38 And Jesus turned and saw them following, and *said to them, “What do you seek?” They said to Him, “Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?”
John 4:31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.”
John 6:25 When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
John 11:8 The disciples *said to Him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone You, and are You going there again?”
Mark 9:5 Peter *said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
Mark 11:21 Being reminded, Peter *said to Him, “Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered.”
John 1:49 Nathanael answered Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.”
John 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
Matthew 26:25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself.”
Matthew 26:49 Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him.
Mark 14:45 After coming, Judas immediately went to Him, saying, “Rabbi!” and kissed Him.
Mark 10:51 And answering him, Jesus said, “What do you want Me to do for you?” And the blind man said to Him, “Rabboni, I want to regain my sight!”
John 20:16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher).
Matthew 23:7-8 respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
RTFM, then repent lest the Lord strike you down for bearing false witness against His Son.
Post by: jeffreyH on 15/04/2020 16:51:13
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 17:15:54
A fundamentalist rabbi crucified for annoying the Romans and the established clergy? Quite likely (we are an argumentative tribe).
You cannot, have not and will never prove that He was a fundamentalist Rabbi.
Not my job. Why don't you read the bible instead of spouting drivel?
John 1:38 And Jesus turned and saw them following, and *said to them, “What do you seek?” They said to Him, “Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?”
John 4:31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.”
John 6:25 When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
John 11:8 The disciples *said to Him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone You, and are You going there again?”
Mark 9:5 Peter *said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
Mark 11:21 Being reminded, Peter *said to Him, “Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered.”
John 1:49 Nathanael answered Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.”
John 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
Matthew 26:25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself.”
Matthew 26:49 Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him.
Mark 14:45 After coming, Judas immediately went to Him, saying, “Rabbi!” and kissed Him.
Mark 10:51 And answering him, Jesus said, “What do you want Me to do for you?” And the blind man said to Him, “Rabboni, I want to regain my sight!”
John 20:16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher).
Matthew 23:7-8 respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
RTFM, then repent lest the Lord strike you down for bearing false witness against His Son.
A fundamentalist rabbi crucified for annoying the Romans and the established clergy? Quite likely (we are an argumentative tribe).
You cannot, have not and will never prove that He was a fundamentalist Rabbi.
Not my job. Why don't you read the bible instead of spouting drivel?
John 1:38 And Jesus turned and saw them following, and *said to them, “What do you seek?” They said to Him, “Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?”
John 4:31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.”
John 6:25 When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
John 11:8 The disciples *said to Him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone You, and are You going there again?”
Mark 9:5 Peter *said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
Mark 11:21 Being reminded, Peter *said to Him, “Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered.”
John 1:49 Nathanael answered Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.”
John 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
Matthew 26:25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself.”
Matthew 26:49 Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him.
Mark 14:45 After coming, Judas immediately went to Him, saying, “Rabbi!” and kissed Him.
Mark 10:51 And answering him, Jesus said, “What do you want Me to do for you?” And the blind man said to Him, “Rabboni, I want to regain my sight!”
John 20:16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher).
Matthew 23:7-8 respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
RTFM, then repent lest the Lord strike you down for bearing false witness against His Son.
Nice try. You forgot something. Keep reading. HE was GOD. HE was anything but a fundamentalist Rabbi. HE was radical, a revolutionary, HE rammed the O.T. down their throats. Loving HIM was the completion of all that came before. Obeying the Law was summarized in loving one another with the Love with which HE loved us. HE had to be silenced by the fundamental Rabbis of His day.
May the LORD bless you and keep you; may the LORD cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; may the LORD lift up His countenance toward you and give you peace.’…
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 17:33:14
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Got to love that winnowing fork
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 17:43:00
Post by: alancalverd on 15/04/2020 17:51:18
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 18:15:08
Nobody worships rabbis. We aren't that stupid.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 18:21:09
HE was radical, a revolutionary, HE rammed the O.T. down their throats.Let's just have a quick look at that abbreviation.
He rammed the OLD testament down their throats.
Not very revolutionary really, is it?
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 18:22:01
Nobody worships rabbis. We aren't that stupid.
And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”
And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!”
And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 18:26:08
Nobody worships rabbis. We aren't that stupid.
How stupid are you?
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 18:27:59
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 20:27:14
You missed the whole point. Of course they worshiped HIM. HE WAS GOD ALMIGHTY. The Alpha and the Omega, the Savior of the World, the Bright and Morning Star, the I AM, the Good Shepherd, the Door, the Advocate, Alive Forever More, The Anointed, The Messiah, The Lamb Of God, Emmanuel, Master, Prince Of Peace ........Nobody worships rabbis. We aren't that stupid.
And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”
And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!”
And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 20:33:04
But, each of us can know Him personally. That is His guarantee. You don't have to rely upon what anyone else may say. HE can be yours and HE can prove to you individually, personally, YOU, exactly Who HE is. If HE is not the risen Savior of the world, HE can't do anything.
Scientists love experiments. Test HIM out. Don't play games with Him. If you aren't sincere, HE will not respond. If you must know whether or not HE IS, ask HIM to show you for Pete's sake and HE will. That's scientific.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 20:38:40
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2020 21:06:20
They choose not to test HIM.There are two problems with that.
First; you are wrong.
The tests have been done. God fails.
Secondly, when we do the tests- and point out that God fails, we get told "Well, of course it failed".
Matthew 4:7
Test not thy God.
So, why are you so wrong?
Post by: Pseudoscience-is-malarkey on 15/04/2020 21:21:24
I'm an active member of RA (Rambling Anonymous), so ill leave this answer to that.
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 23:34:25
@duffyd You want everyone else to believe in something you were told was true. Without any evidence. Because the grown ups that taught you that were the ones you thought you could trust implicitly.
One more example where the accuser has no idea what she's saying.
You'll see, if you are interested, that this particular individual and her friends are locked into such foolishness, while continuously accusing her opponents of doing exactly the same. Despite exposing them for such duplicitous behavior, they are incapable of acknowledging it and changing it. Debating uninformed and biased individuals is a waste of my intellect and my integrity. If they were, even to the slightest degree, remorseful for such ongoing dishonesty, I would be happy to give them additional opportunities to try to prove their positions.
Post by: Kryptid on 15/04/2020 23:54:09
One more example where the accuser has no idea what she's saying.
And now you think a user named "jeffteyH" is a woman?
Post by: duffyd on 15/04/2020 23:59:25
There is also people who pretend to believe it to avoid being ostracized. There's a rumor that JFK was an an atheist but didn't come out of the closet about it for obvious reasons.
Well, if you knew history, you would not make such a ridiculous statement. JFK's father, The Patriarch Joe Kennedy, spent a fortune trying to convince the voting public that Jack's Catholicism would not interfere with his decision making, if he were fortunate enough to become the first catholic president. By a quirk of fate and brilliant politics he won the endorsement of black leadership who, in the nick of time, decided it would be safe to vote for a catholic afterall.
"A for effort" but once again that nonsense fails here, too.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 00:01:54
One more example where the accuser has no idea what she's saying.
And now you think a user named "jeffteyH" is a woman?
A Boy Named Sue. I have no bias.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 00:08:48
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 01:28:46
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going"
Do you know anyone who spoke like that?.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 06:45:53
How did they come up with this material?
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going"
Do you know anyone who spoke like that?.
This is a special approach that substantiates the numerous claims of His divinity. As Literary Criticism is considered a legitimate field of study, we can apply the same techniques to verify that not only did these, His words, flow from Him and no other, but in fact only GOD could have formulated the very quotes we have from ancient records. What Christ said is so unique, so unlike what other people have said, we must acknowledge the GOD-like quality to His statements, questions, teachings, His prayers and sermons. As you study the things He verbalized, you are compelled to accept HE had to be GOD, or as CS Lewis said, a nut who thought he was a poached egg.
We know this for sure: you must decide Who HE is. HE leaves no room to dismiss HIM as irrelevant.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 11:20:10
One more example where the accuser has no idea what she's saying.You might not understand it; the rest of us know what they are saying.
Debating uninformed and biased individuals is a waste of my intellect and my integrity.Is that why you don't debate; but choose to preach instead?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 11:22:26
That might count as evidence that JFK was raised in a Catholic household.There is also people who pretend to believe it to avoid being ostracized. There's a rumor that JFK was an an atheist but didn't come out of the closet about it for obvious reasons.
Well, if you knew history, you would not make such a ridiculous statement. JFK's father, The Patriarch Joe Kennedy, spent a fortune trying to convince the voting public that Jack's Catholicism would not interfere with his decision making, if he were fortunate enough to become the first catholic president. By a quirk of fate and brilliant politics he won the endorsement of black leadership who, in the nick of time, decided it would be safe to vote for a catholic afterall.
"A for effort" but once again that nonsense fails here, too.
But it says nothing about what JFK himself actually believed, does it?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 11:26:50
UNFORTUNATELY, no one has proffered a single new or insightful argument to further their cause.It is true that most of the points about the lack of evidence for God are old.
They have been put forward before.
And as I said
And, if you were acting rationally, you would either refute them, or you would accept them.
But you haven't- even though, as you say, you have had years to do so.
So, since you have a multi-year track record of not being rational, what are you doing on a science discussion forum?
(The "you" there is a plural).
How did they come up with this material?They had a committee
Do you know anyone who spoke like that?.Yes, the committee.
Do you not realise that the Bible is the work of man. We know the names of the men.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version#Translation_committees
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 11:30:08
His words, flow from Him and no other,He did not speak English.
Those words came from a known, named group of people in the late 16th + early 17th C
Post by: alancalverd on 16/04/2020 11:49:43
He did not speak English.Or Greek, or much Latin (though apparently enough to argue with Pontius Pilate, but we have no contemporaneous court documents). It's possible that some Hebrew documents are close to the truth but written classical Hebrew can be a bit casual with vowels, so beware of taking anything too literally.
I'm told by those who know that there's little difference between "I am" and "mine is" in Aramaic. "Mine is the Way, the Truth and the Life" makes sense - I guess every charismatic leader and vegetarian has said it sometime. But "I am the Way...." is drivel in any language.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 12:08:29
Stick with the experts. Don't listen to "others" unless they have training. You can pick apart what He is quoted as saying and add that none of it is contmporaneous, which defeats your purpose. They most likely wrote down what He said as He said it. WE got the good news and it has been tested thoroughly for 2,000 years. These folks were by no means your average citizens. They were Jews, the best and the brightest of any/all people groups. JESUS targeted them as His original audience. HE was Jewish. They were not idiots. They strove with every ounce of strength and all the resources they could find to leave for us what actually took place, despite all kinds of threats. You don't want to introduce your messiah to a people whose entire identity is wrapped in the strongest "religious" tradition unless you are masochists or you know what you are doing.He did not speak English.Or Greek, or much Latin (though apparently enough to argue with Pontius Pilate, but we have no contemporaneous court documents). It's possible that some Hebrew documents are close to the truth but written classical Hebrew can be a bit casual with vowels, so beware of taking anything too literally.
I'm told by those who know that there's little difference between "I am" and "mine is" in Aramaic. "Mine is the Way, the Truth and the Life" makes sense - I guess every charismatic leader and vegetarian has said it sometime. But "I am the Way...." is drivel in any language.
The resistance out of the block to try to destroy and pervert and to misapply the gospel message is a phenomenon. The pieces of the puzzle fall into place when we allow the good news to be what it is.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 12:13:41
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 12:24:02
We are not talking about some conniving little puke, like that little pixie ben hinn here folks. This Guy couldn't afford food. He had to make it out of nothing. HE was all man. HE had an impossible mission and no one was going to stop him no matter what. He and the Baptist were real Men. They had character, real, genuine, masculine spines of steel. You go get crucified for the people who hate your guts. Try that on for size. That's not preaching. It is explaining Who we're are dealing with here folks. This wasn't some half-baked scheme, a get rich quick opportunity that didn't pan out. There were tornadic, dark forces behind the scenes warring against each other and HIS death was supposed to be the final victory.
It was the beginning.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 12:35:43
The N.T. is filled with energy and hope and amazement. They couldn't get over what they had witnessed. If you read the N.T. you can't help but sense their genuineness, the fantastic events they were a part of.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 13:23:11
Stick with the experts. Don't listen to "others" unless they have training.OK, how good is your Aramaic?
Should we stop listening to you at this point?
HE had an impossible mission and no one was going to stop him no matter what.Either he was going to do it, or it was impossible.
Pick one.
Tons of us believe in UFOs.peak for yourself (assuming you are using it in the colloquial sense).
Post by: alancalverd on 16/04/2020 14:11:22
Stick with the experts. Don't listen to "others" unless they have training.My trainers were a working vicar, a former bishop and a former chief rabbi. Who taught you?
And for what it's worth, like most aviators, I've seen a few flying objects I couldn't identify. Not sure what they had to do with the bible, and as they were outside controlled airspace and not a hazard, I didn't investigate further. So what?
Post by: alancalverd on 16/04/2020 14:18:19
They murdered Him because HE healed people on the wrong day of the week.No. The Romans murdered Jesus. They weren't particularly concerned about the Jewish sabbath, and healing the sick is a mitzvah any day of the week.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 14:32:52
mitzvahYou are remarkably adept at missing the point, whatever that point might be. One might suspect intentionality on your part. No, the Romans cooperated with the Pharisees because they believed them when they told them that little half-naked nobody was a threat to Rome, just as they conspired and hoped they would. (He was a threat to people like you who run away from Reality, just like people have run from HIM since He walked on the earth HE made.) They murdered an innocent man (notice how few people raise this point. HE was an innocent man, unfairly tried for nothing criminal. Non-believers should object to the way HE was mistreated because after all HE was a human being, a real person, who deserved a measure of justice, particularly when HE is tried by the powers that be who boasted of their piety, their emphasis on looking good before the masses.) because HE was a threat, not to any government--Christians on the whole are wonderful citizens. HE threatened the foundation upon which they built a diametrically opposed religious Machine, designed to prevent GOD and the earth's meek from being friends. Remember those meek people, the ones God loves to hang with, the salt of the earth types?
Try to hear the moaning, the cries, the painful sounds that most people know so well, you know, the piercing silent throbbing of all the poor slobs who are too unimportant for the well, who don't need a doctor. Those are the people who will see HIM and will share in the abundance of the riches to come.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 14:38:46
Stick with the experts. Don't listen to "others" unless they have training.My trainers were a working vicar, a former bishop and a former chief rabbi. Who taught you?
And for what it's worth, like most aviators, I've seen a few flying objects I couldn't identify. Not sure what they had to do with the bible, and as they were outside controlled airspace and not a hazard, I didn't investigate further. So what?
Your trainers are as blind as you. Try, try to keep this in mind: they plotted to execute this cat because HE healed the sick on the Sabbath. Just like you, their eyes were blind. HE HEALED THE SICK, on holy days--they had to murder HIM.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 14:39:58
Remember those meek people, the ones God loves to hang with, the salt of the earth types?The ones suffering and dying painfully, in droves- "because of God's love".
Yep, I remember them.
Best ever evidence against any God worthy of any praise.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 14:40:44
Your trainers are as blind as you.
Funny how everyone- even the experts- are blind, and only you can see.
Post by: alancalverd on 16/04/2020 19:49:39
They murdered an innocent man because HE was a threat, not to any government--Christians on the whole are wonderful citizens.Jesus was not a Christian. Unlike the scum who ran the Inquisition. Or those that fiddle with choirboys, burn witches, or murder other Christians for being other. Or those who protect the miscreants.
Good deeds do not require justification. People on the whole are reasonably good citizens. Religion provides a bogus excuse for the inexcusable.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 20:53:32
Jesus was not a Christian. Unlike the scum who ran the Inquisition. Or those that fiddle with choirboys, burn witches, or murder other Christians for being other. Or those who protect the miscreants.
Why do you call the people who did those things Christians? Is there something wrong with you?
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 21:01:14
Goo
Good deeds do not require justification. People on the whole are reasonably good citizens. Religion provides a bogus excuse for the inexcusable.
? What are you talking about?
They murdered Christ for which bad deeds? You are a shifty, sneaky one. Science proves you are intentionally doing what you can to run away from HIM. Science cannot tell you why you are here, what happens to you when you die (which is oh so near for all of us) what "meaning" is and how to find it. But, it can figure out that you are running away, full speed, constantly, from the questions/issues staring you in the face. Why do you run? Science would say "fear."
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 21:22:52
No. The Romans murdered Jesus. They weren't particularly concerned about the Jewish sabbath, and healing the sick is a mitzvah any day of the week.
The Romans had no interest in this nobody. HE was no threat to them. The Pharisees wanted HIM dead and gone so they manipulated Pilate into killing HIM. He tried to release the guy, for Pete's sake. HE is a threat to everyone who refuses to examine HIM carefully. HE IS GOD. It is impossible to get away from HIM. But, we try like mad; can't be done. That's why you throw out silliness as you try to rationalize HIM away.
That's what people do. We don't want GOD to screw up our lives and make us miserable. So, we fight HIM. We fight yielding our lives to HIM. We would like to be able to have some fun once in a while. We would like to achieve some things. HE wants those things for us more than we do, but we don't believe it.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 21:30:19
Why do you call the people who did those things Christians? Is there something wrong with you?Because they believe in Christ. (and, in the case of the witch burners, they were following the explicit teaching of the Christian Bible)
It's not us with whom there's something wrong.
There's something wrong with people who think that "so and so, must be alright- he's a man of God", when in fact, so and so , is a child abuser.
No better smokescreen than God.
And, once you teach people that facts are not important, then lies become so much easier.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 21:31:01
I'm told by those who know that there's little difference between "I am" and "mine is" in Aramaic. "Mine is the Way, the Truth and the Life" makes sense - I guess every charismatic leader and vegetarian has said it sometime. But "I am the Way...." is drivel in any language.
Wrong. Check with the scholars who are responsible for the words in the RSV, the NRSV, the NIV, the Amplified Version, the NAS, the KJV, the NKJV, etc. They disagree with them.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 21:31:58
Science proves you are intentionally doing what you can to run away from HIM.Bollocks.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 21:34:10
Check with the scholars who are responsible for the words in the RSV, the NRSV, the NIV, the Amplified Version, the NAS, the KJV, the NKJV, etc.Mainly dead.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 21:44:39
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 22:13:35
If some realtor tells you she's got property in Florida guaranteed to be worth 10 times what she's selling it for, double check that.And if a preacher is telling you he has the keys to heaven, you should probably treat them the same way.
But, somehow, you suspended common sense, and believed them
People can say anything. If someone says he's a follower of Christ,I didn't say he was a follower of Christ (though the witch burners were).
I said he was a believer in Christ. Only a moron would mistake those ideas for eachother.
He may well be one of the Catholic Christians who think it's OK to abuse children as long as they apologise to their invisible friend afterwards.
If someone says he's a follower of Christ, and he likes diddling little boys, that's a pretty good sign he's a lying douchebag.Sadly, it seems you don't need the middle part of that for the statement to be true far too often
"If someone says he's a follower of Christ
Of course, your failure to notice this aspect is worrying
If someone
Post by: Petrochemicals on 16/04/2020 22:15:16
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 22:17:41
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roadpickle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fwall-of-spam.jpg&hash=c2c174fe1c4334c4494543497aa40bbc)Thanks for sharing.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 22:29:59
Nobody worships rabbis. We aren't that stupid.
I just proved JESUS CHRIST was worshiped.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 16/04/2020 22:37:23
religion was something to be owned, for power, any semblance of respectability began with the first vatican council. Medici had vatican parties orgy parties, painted boys green who then died due to lack of skin oxydisation. Henry 8th wanted power back, but for reasons of his own power. The jews muslims bhuddists hindus all power.They murdered an innocent man because HE was a threat, not to any government--Christians on the whole are wonderful citizens.Jesus was not a Christian. Unlike the scum who ran the Inquisition. Or those that fiddle with choirboys, burn witches, or murder other Christians for being other. Or those who protect the miscreants.
Good deeds do not require justification. People on the whole are reasonably good citizens. Religion provides a bogus excuse for the inexcusable.
Its a bit of rose tinted specks and judging history with todays standards, power and religion must have been the way of it
Also are you not screwing people (children included) if you promise them saving and resurection and all you do is lead them to accept an early painful grave ? And no ressurection.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2020 22:39:06
Still is.Nobody worships rabbis. We aren't that stupid.
I just proved JESUS CHRIST was worshiped.
Give yourself a medal.
Doesn't even prove he was real. (loads of "Gods" have been worshipped).
At best you have shown that Alan is mistaken about something.
Hardly warrants capital letters.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 22:47:52
I'm told by those who know that there's little difference between "I am" and "mine is" in Aramaic. "Mine is the Way, the Truth and the Life" makes sense - I guess every charismatic leader and vegetarian has said it sometime. But "I am the Way...." is drivel in any language.
I just explained why you should trust the editors of the various translations and versions. Someone else answers for you and I don't know what your response is. I have asked this individual dozens of times to stop interfering with my conversations and debates. She cannot control herself. Therefore, make sure when you do respond to me you mention your name in the content. She violates the rules non-stop. I have this magnetism that some women and some men simply find irresistible. I don't consciously encourage these obsessions with me, and I can't prevent them. I try to be nice to my diehard fans. They always crave more of me even though I'm happily married and would never cheat on my spouse. I know how Elvis felt.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 22:59:57
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 23:02:44
religion was something to be owned, for power, any semblance of respectability began with the first vatican council. Medici had vatican parties orgy parties, painted boys green who then died due to lack of skin oxydisation. Henry 8th wanted power back, but for reasons of his own power. The jews muslims bhuddists hindus all power.They murdered an innocent man because HE was a threat, not to any government--Christians on the whole are wonderful citizens.Jesus was not a Christian. Unlike the scum who ran the Inquisition. Or those that fiddle with choirboys, burn witches, or murder other Christians for being other. Or those who protect the miscreants.
Good deeds do not require justification. People on the whole are reasonably good citizens. Religion provides a bogus excuse for the inexcusable.
Its a bit of rose tinted specks and judging history with todays standards, power and religion must have been the way of it
Also are you not screwing people (children included) if you promise them saving and resurection and all you do is lead them to accept an early painful grave ? And no ressurection.
Paradise. Perfection. Heaven. I can't wait.
Post by: alancalverd on 16/04/2020 23:10:42
Why do you call the people who did those things Christians?I don't. They do. By their deeds shall ye know them.
Quote
Paradise. Perfection. Heaven. I can't wait.and yet you are still here. O ye of little faith.
Post by: duffyd on 16/04/2020 23:21:52
Why do you call the people who did those things Christians?I don't. They do. By their deeds shall ye know them.QuoteParadise. Perfection. Heaven. I can't wait.and yet you are still here. O ye of little faith.
You give up so easily?
How many usernames would you guess an individual might use who comments here?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 16/04/2020 23:25:06
Was that the orgys or the screwing children, or am i failing to understand what you are sayingreligion was something to be owned, for power, any semblance of respectability began with the first vatican council. Medici had vatican parties orgy parties, painted boys green who then died due to lack of skin oxydisation. Henry 8th wanted power back, but for reasons of his own power. The jews muslims bhuddists hindus all power.They murdered an innocent man because HE was a threat, not to any government--Christians on the whole are wonderful citizens.Jesus was not a Christian. Unlike the scum who ran the Inquisition. Or those that fiddle with choirboys, burn witches, or murder other Christians for being other. Or those who protect the miscreants.
Good deeds do not require justification. People on the whole are reasonably good citizens. Religion provides a bogus excuse for the inexcusable.
Its a bit of rose tinted specks and judging history with todays standards, power and religion must have been the way of it
Also are you not screwing people (children included) if you promise them saving and resurection and all you do is lead them to accept an early painful grave ? And no ressurection.
Paradise. Perfection. Heaven. I can't wait.
(https://positek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/wall-of-spam-image-from-huffingtonpost-243x300.jpg)
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 00:46:28
Was that the orgys or the screwing children, or am i failing to understand what you are sayingreligion was something to be owned, for power, any semblance of respectability began with the first vatican council. Medici had vatican parties orgy parties, painted boys green who then died due to lack of skin oxydisation. Henry 8th wanted power back, but for reasons of his own power. The jews muslims bhuddists hindus all power.They murdered an innocent man because HE was a threat, not to any government--Christians on the whole are wonderful citizens.Jesus was not a Christian. Unlike the scum who ran the Inquisition. Or those that fiddle with choirboys, burn witches, or murder other Christians for being other. Or those who protect the miscreants.
Good deeds do not require justification. People on the whole are reasonably good citizens. Religion provides a bogus excuse for the inexcusable.
Its a bit of rose tinted specks and judging history with todays standards, power and religion must have been the way of it
Also are you not screwing people (children included) if you promise them saving and resurection and all you do is lead them to accept an early painful grave ? And no ressurection.
Paradise. Perfection. Heaven. I can't wait.
(https://positek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/wall-of-spam-image-from-huffingtonpost-243x300.jpg)
That's preaching. You know it's always possible to treat others with respect. You and yours insult Christians non-stop for doing the very things you do. You could save a lot time just debating the points.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 01:07:26
I know how desperate they are to be united with GOD or they wouldn't protest so much. Their pride is as contemptuous as those who abused others while pretending to be what they were not, but, you can't tell them that. You can't tell them anything. They are the Pharisees of modernity. No one is as righteous as they are. No one deserves anything but contempt from them, they consider themselves that good. They cannot learn anything new, just like the brain washed. They are on automatic pilot and cruise through life unwilling to question their worldview. All the time they are missing out on what it is like to know HIM. They will not be scientists in the true sense and seek through experimentation whether they know the truth or not. They are all the same. They speak with one voice. HE loves them so.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 01:23:24
Was that the orgys or the screwing children, or am i failing to understand what you are sayingreligion was something to be owned, for power, any semblance of respectability began with the first vatican council. Medici had vatican parties orgy parties, painted boys green who then died due to lack of skin oxydisation. Henry 8th wanted power back, but for reasons of his own power. The jews muslims bhuddists hindus all power.They murdered an innocent man because HE was a threat, not to any government--Christians on the whole are wonderful citizens.Jesus was not a Christian. Unlike the scum who ran the Inquisition. Or those that fiddle with choirboys, burn witches, or murder other Christians for being other. Or those who protect the miscreants.
Good deeds do not require justification. People on the whole are reasonably good citizens. Religion provides a bogus excuse for the inexcusable.
Its a bit of rose tinted specks and judging history with todays standards, power and religion must have been the way of it
Also are you not screwing people (children included) if you promise them saving and resurection and all you do is lead them to accept an early painful grave ? And no ressurection.
Paradise. Perfection. Heaven. I can't wait.
(https://positek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/wall-of-spam-image-from-huffingtonpost-243x300.jpg)
While they obssess over Christians, they pretend we are all perverts, evil, two-faced beasts. They know that millions, the vast majority of Christians are lovely, good, decent, honest people and the fact that they never mention that proves they must strain to argue their side.
Christ laid it all out on the pages of the N.T. Didn't pull punches. Didn't try to sweet talk HIS opponents. He told them what HE thought with candid authority. They murmured and plotted. They ganged up on HIM secretly using every devilish manipulation to have their will done. I wish I had been there. I would loved to have seen it unfold. Each part coming to pass in brief snippets of time, I'd be observing it all go down, just as we read in the N.T. The smell of the Passover meals cooking, the swirling aroma in the air, the sounds of children in the background, the enormous stones they carved to form the buildings, the clothing ancient women wore, their gnarled teeth, the swords the men carried. What is really weird is that it really did take place. It happened. Long, long time ago. Just as they said.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 17/04/2020 02:25:25
While they obssess over Christians, they pretend we are all perverts, evil, two-faced beasts. They know that millions, the vast majority of Christians are lovely, good, decent, honest people and the fact that they never mention that proves they must strain to argue their side.So
Christ laid it all out on the pages of the N.T. Didn't pull punches. Didn't try to sweet talk HIS opponents. He told them what HE thought with candid authority. They murmured and plotted. They ganged up on HIM secretly using every devilish manipulation to have their will done. I wish I had been there. I would loved to have seen it unfold. Each part coming to pass in brief snippets of time, I'd be observing it all go down, just as we read in the N.T. The smell of the Passover meals cooking, the swirling aroma in the air, the sounds of children in the background, the enormous stones they carved to form the buildings, the clothing ancient women wore, their gnarled teeth, the swords the men carried. What is really weird is that it really did take place. It happened. Long, long time ago. Just as they said.
(https://positek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/wall-of-spam-image-from-huffingtonpost-243x300.jpg)
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 03:22:51
Thanks Kerosene. Batting 1,000 percent, still. I should get into the prophecy business full time.While they obssess over Christians, they pretend we are all perverts, evil, two-faced beasts. They know that millions, the vast majority of Christians are lovely, good, decent, honest people and the fact that they never mention that proves they must strain to argue their side.So
Christ laid it all out on the pages of the N.T. Didn't pull punches. Didn't try to sweet talk HIS opponents. He told them what HE thought with candid authority. They murmured and plotted. They ganged up on HIM secretly using every devilish manipulation to have their will done. I wish I had been there. I would loved to have seen it unfold. Each part coming to pass in brief snippets of time, I'd be observing it all go down, just as we read in the N.T. The smell of the Passover meals cooking, the swirling aroma in the air, the sounds of children in the background, the enormous stones they carved to form the buildings, the clothing ancient women wore, their gnarled teeth, the swords the men carried. What is really weird is that it really did take place. It happened. Long, long time ago. Just as they said.
(https://positek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/wall-of-spam-image-from-huffingtonpost-243x300.jpg)
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 10:00:32
We learn about Jesus primarily from the New Testament. But we learn about Jesus also from other early sources. One such source of information and confirmation is the collection of non-Christian material about Jesus, both Roman and Jewish. For example, Princeton biblical scholar Bruce Metzger says that even without the New Testament records, “early non-Christian testimonies concerning Jesus, though scanty, are sufficient to prove … that he was a historical figure who lived in Palestine in the early years of the first century, that he gathered a group of followers about himself, and that he was condemned to death under Pontius Pilate. Today, no competent scholar denies the historicity of Jesus.”
One of Jesus's clearest self-identifying statements came in response to the Jewish leaders' direct question: "How long will you keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly" (John 10:24).
“I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:25-30)
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 10:04:18
Yet, our mythicist friends can't believe HE lived. If HE didn't, somebody pulled off quite the hoax.
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 10:06:38
You and yours insult Christians non-stop for doing the very things you do..Actually, we were insulting Christians for doing evil things like witch burning and child molesting.Would you like to cite your evidence for the idea that we are doing those things, or are you (once again) just saying stuff that's not true?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 10:15:17
There is unequaled and undeniable proof that Jesus of Nazareth walked this earth some two thousand years ago.And again., you say that, but it's not true.
Show me a single contemporary coin with his head on it and I will accept that he's at least getting to nearly as well supported as Nero.
The Encyclopedia Britannica uses 20,000 words to describe JesusArgument by authority isn't valid.
Why present it?
And it devotes about 300 words to King Arthur who definitely didn't exist.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 10:39:54
—C.S. Lewis
That is why He warned people to "count the cost" before becoming Christians. "Make no mistake," He says, "if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less, or other, than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. cs lewis
No one can say so much with so few words. He led many to Christ. More since he's been dead.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 10:45:25
Christians think, "I didn't bargain for this. I want the perks. Forget this suffering crap." And it's always a choice. We can jump out of the Refiner's Fire any time we choose. But, if we follow HIM, He will inevitably bring us back to the same place in our walk with Him. We must complete the ordeal or we will not grow. No shortcuts to spirituality.
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 10:47:32
But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?One can't.
And you have proved it repeatedly.
For example, you thought that an argument by authority had some value.
It hasn't.
. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else.Wrong.
The fallacy there is the "excluded middle" or false dilemma.
A lack of trustworthy thought does no rule out an agnostic viewpoint.
That's it.
He's wrong.
Now it may be true that you can't use science to prove that God does not exist, but it is possible to prove that He is not necessary.
Why invent Him?
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 10:48:49
Who talked like that?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 10:49:47
"But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconceivable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect—until my Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less."blah blah blah..
As I pointed out; he's wrong.
That's one reason why you should stop relying on logical fallacy to support your views.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 10:50:38
“I always do the things that are pleasing to him” (John 8:29). An amazing statement for a man to make.
No other sinless life recorded throughout history
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 10:54:39
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"Well, according to what's attributed to Matthew, Jesus said it.
Who talked like that?
But He obviously didn't. English didn't even exist at that time.
And any translation will have done it's utmost to enhance the beauty of the writing.
So , since there have been a few major re-writes, , by now you would expect them to have got some nce poetic language.
It's probably got little to do with what words (if any) were actually spoken.
But the interesting thing is teh message in those words.
It's where Jesus (allegedly) said "I have not come to change the Old Testament laws about slavery, homosexuality or witchburning".
It's where he told clearly Christians to carry on with doing those things.
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 10:56:12
When questioned about his teachings or his unique moral authority, Jesus responded humbly and confidently to his accusers: “Which of you convicts me of sin?” (John 8:46).I do.
Proverbs Kings 16:18
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 10:57:07
The documentation for Christ from before HIS birth throughout HIS life and death and as the risen Savior of the world is beyond compare. No rationale person denies that HE was GOD's Son.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 11:04:41
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome,"
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 11:05:44
In his life of the Roman emperor Claudius, Suetonius mentions that Claudius expelled Jews from Rome, an event that most scholars date to the year 49 and that Luke mentioned in passing in his account about Paul in Corinth (Acts 18:2). “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [impulsore Chresto], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.”Nice try.
The documentation for Christ from before HIS birth throughout HIS life and death and as the risen Savior of the world is beyond compare. No rationale person denies that HE was GOD's Son.
In that translation " Chrestus" isn't a name.
It means someone anointed.
The oppressed Jews of the time, understandably, produced lots of "messiahs". So did the other faith groups around the place.
But it's not meaningful to say that, because one (or more- do you think the Romans really cared?) of the groups of followers got kicked out of Rome, that he was the son of God.
In his life of the Roman emperor Claudius, Suetonius mentions that Claudius expelled Jews from Rome, an event that most scholars date to the year 49Roughly 20 years after "the" Jesus was dead.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 11:09:30
Thanks belatedly Bruce. You are absolutely correct. They observed the Son of God risen from the grave.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 11:11:10
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete. 1 Jn 1, 1-4
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 11:11:41
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populaceEven the Romans noticed that the Christians weren't a nice bunch.
and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome,"Nobody is disputing that "Christianity" was largely founded in Rome.
The questions are
whether there really was one "Jesus" or, was he (like Arthur) a concatenation of different individuals?
Whether that Jesus (if he existed) was really the Son of God, or just as charismatic speaker with some sensible ideas about social reform..
Princeton’s New Testament scholar Bruce M. Metzger makes this point: “If the evangelists had fabricated the resurrection narratives, they would not have left obvious difficulties—such as those involving the number of angels at the tomb, the order of Jesus’ appearances, and similar details. That the accounts have been left unreconciled without any attempt to produce a single stereotyped narrative inspires confidence in the fundamental honesty of those who transmitted the evidence.” Every good detective, trial attorney and judge knows this.So, he claims it's right because it has errors.
Thanks belatedly Bruce. You are absolutely correct. They observed the Son of God risen from the grave.
It's right because it is wrong.
Now that's the sort of doublethink that allows priests to get away with abusing children because it stops people using their brains.
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 11:17:43
Many claim we don't have eyewitness testimony.You have the alleged testimony of one man, whoc can't possibly be considered "independent".
Could he read and write? If so, why? Most couldn't.
Thus it's unlikely that his words were written down by him, nor could he have checked that any written record was true.
And also, no record was made until well after the facts.
None of those would stand in court.
It's not even good enough to be hearsay.
Post by: alancalverd on 17/04/2020 12:20:36
No other sinless life recorded throughout historyMine isn't over yet, but it will be recorded as sinless, if anyone cares to do so. Get real, Duffy.
Post by: alancalverd on 17/04/2020 12:27:53
The questions are whether there really was one "Jesus"I think one has caused enough trouble. Imagine what the world would be like if there were more. You'd have religious wars breaking out all over the place, with Christians killing each other....Thank goodness all that stuff about the Huguenots, the Pilgrim Fathers, the Reformation, and organised crime in Northern Ireland, is a myth.
Post by: alancalverd on 17/04/2020 12:30:10
I'm always impressed with the disdain so many people have for HIM,Not him. You and your ilk.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 13:46:00
I'm always impressed with the disdain so many people have for HIM,Not him. You and your ilk.
You are a bigot.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 14:02:35
These scientists are incapable of praying that prayer, sincerely. Can't do it. That tells us everything about them they will never admit. "What's that?" you say. "They already know HE IS and they despise HIM." Just like alan despises me. He hates because he is hateful and he will not let GOD remove his hate. He loves his hatred. "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
Even though they believe, just as devils believe and tremble, they know HE IS and they hate HIS guts. Look at the vomit they spew, these scientists on a respectable website are thoroughly depraved and vile and they are proud of it, yet they have no scientific justification for such feelings and attitudes. (Shows how important science is in guiding our lives.) They spew viruses of hatred because they know HE IS.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 14:13:16
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 14:16:27
And they close their eyes to the creation we know and experience daily.
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/04/2020 15:07:53
Post by: Petrochemicals on 17/04/2020 15:18:17
I answered this thread honestly, I think you should honestly edit the title to some thing like, "why does duffy antagonise for god"
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 15:21:01
GOD didn't force Lucifer to hate HIM. Lucifer made a decision.God made Lucifer, knowing what would happen.
This is a bit like the "I didn't kill him; the bullet did" argument.
You are responsible for your indirect actions as well as your direct ones.
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 15:25:00
They won't experiment. "Christ, please, if You exist, show me. I want to know with all my heart. I will do anything, anything You ask of me. I am sincere LORD. I have to know if You are real! Please show me."That's just silly.
These scientists are incapable of praying that prayer, sincerely.
Most of us, at least , were "raised " as believers. Our parents believed and we deserted the faith.
But, in most cases, we will have, in our younger days, have prayed.
And, do you know what happened?
Nothing. Not a spriritual sausage.
So, in reality, everybody has done the experiment you talk of.
And it fails.
You need to face that reality. Many people pray for God's help and He just doesn't.
Post by: alancalverd on 17/04/2020 15:38:06
How much would you pay for a bowdlerised sketch of a third-hand copy of a painting by an unknown artist of an event that he did not witness? Not a lot, I suspect. So why write pages of nonsense about a wholly unjustified interpretation of an edited collection of quasi-historical and bizarrely mystical texts?
At face value the bible contains some interesting snippets of the history and poetry of the Jews up to about 2000 years ago, with possibly too much emphasis (much of it tediously repeated and over-embellished) about Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth. There's plenty more, some in the Dead Sea Scrolls and more recently in the Encyclopaedia Judaica.
Little point in anyone else reading it as we don't accept converts easily, nor do we require a detailed knowledge of it - just a broad understanding of the underlying philosophy and acceptance of the rules of behavior. And don't kneel.
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/04/2020 16:15:34
God is possibly in the wrong with some of our sensitivities for wanting free willing servants of great power. But I am sure He looked into the future possibilities and picked a fall, with the least damage done to God and the faithful. And the minimum loss of any free willing creatures. IMHO.GOD didn't force Lucifer to hate HIM. Lucifer made a decision.God made Lucifer, knowing what would happen.
This is a bit like the "I didn't kill him; the bullet did" argument.
You are responsible for your indirect actions as well as your direct ones.
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/04/2020 16:35:30
It's the "interpretation" bit that invokes contempt. A famous objection to university courses in English literature was "so much bad English has been written about good English". Much the same with Christianity.Interpretation, by the word alone or by sight too? It is a crux matter in these threads. There is the matter of experiencing Jesus, about which a book was written some years ago. God's presence is meant to teach us scripture. Looking for love. The creation account was I believe partly oral tradition and partly Moses' tradition, not intended as science.
How much would you pay for a bowdlerised sketch of a third-hand copy of a painting by an unknown artist of an event that he did not witness? Not a lot, I suspect. So why write pages of nonsense about a wholly unjustified interpretation of an edited collection of quasi-historical and bizarrely mystical texts?
At face value the bible contains some interesting snippets of the history and poetry of the Jews up to about 2000 years ago, with possibly too much emphasis (much of it tediously repeated and over-embellished) about Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth. There's plenty more, some in the Dead Sea Scrolls and more recently in the Encyclopaedia Judaica.
Little point in anyone else reading it as we don't accept converts easily, nor do we require a detailed knowledge of it - just a broad understanding of the underlying philosophy and acceptance of the rules of behavior. And don't kneel.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 16:39:12
(https://positek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/wall-of-spam-image-from-huffingtonpost-243x300.jpg)
I answered this thread honestly, I think you should honestly edit the title to some thing like, "why does duffy antagonise for god"
Kerosene, I never meant to force you to cling to every word I write. I realize you and others can't help themselves but I really don't try to be so irresistible. Maybe you should seek professional help.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 16:47:48
It's the "interpretation" bit that invokes contempt. A famous objection to university courses in English literature was "so much bad English has been written about good English". Much the same with Christianity.Al, my friend, all of that causes you to despise me without even knowing if I exist. You are not supposed to hate what isn't.
How much would you pay for a bowdlerised sketch of a third-hand copy of a painting by an unknown artist of an event that he did not witness? Not a lot, I suspect. So why write pages of nonsense about a wholly unjustified interpretation of an edited collection of quasi-historical and bizarrely mystical texts?
At face value the bible contains some interesting snippets of the history and poetry of the Jews up to about 2000 years ago, with possibly too much emphasis (much of it tediously repeated and over-embellished) about Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth. There's plenty more, some in the Dead Sea Scrolls and more recently in the Encyclopaedia Judaica.
Little point in anyone else reading it as we don't accept converts easily, nor do we require a detailed knowledge of it - just a broad understanding of the underlying philosophy and acceptance of the rules of behavior. And don't kneel.
BTW, you would do well to examine how the N.T. was preserved, after all, you are the one who said JESUS was a Rabbi, a good guy, who got on the nerves of religious leaders and got Himself murdered by the Romans. How the heck did you come to those conclusions, Old Al? Hmmmm? Your own words pulled your drawers down.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 17:04:01
Al, remember this as well. You've heard 32nd hand why the N.T. isn't all that. It will shock you to realize that as GOD protected the first born with some blood on doorframes, HE preserved the N.T. because of HIS Blood that splashed all over a wooden frame.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 17:12:09
Before Francis Collins became @NIHDirector, he was our Director of @genome_gov and the main leader of the Human Genome Project since 1993! In this week’s #HGPCountdown, hear how he felt leading the project in the beginning, and how the team helped make it work.
Oooops. I forgot Al despises him too.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 17/04/2020 17:18:33
(https://positek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/wall-of-spam-image-from-huffingtonpost-243x300.jpg)
Kerosene, I never meant to force you to cling to every word I write. I realize you and others can't help themselves but I really don't try to be so irresistible. Maybe you should seek professional help.
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 17:26:31
In doing so, He sentenced many innocent millions to eternal torture.God is possibly in the wrong with some of our sensitivities for wanting free willing servants of great power. But I am sure He looked into the future possibilities and picked a fall, with the least damage done to God and the faithful. And the minimum loss of any free willing creatures. IMHO.GOD didn't force Lucifer to hate HIM. Lucifer made a decision.God made Lucifer, knowing what would happen.
This is a bit like the "I didn't kill him; the bullet did" argument.
You are responsible for your indirect actions as well as your direct ones.
That's not a "minimum loss".
It's quite a big one; and the minimum would have been zero.
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 17:29:30
Scientists, like the one who headed our government's research into deciphering the human genome tells you exactly why he believes the bible in his book you haven't read. Why? Go to your library. It's free.I presume you have read it>
I also suppose that you think that some of the points he makes are valid.
Why don't you look through the book, and find the top 3 good arguments and present them here, rather than continuing to post tosh as you have done so far?
You say there is proof.
Why don't you post that, instead of the nonsense you have been posting?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 20:16:02
A Boy Named Sue. I have no bias.It rather looks as if you have.
You refer to your imaginary friend as male- well, that's traditional.
But it seems that when you have an imaginary adversary, they are female.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=79132.msg600192#msg600192
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=79132.msg600349#msg600349
Post by: jerrygg38 on 17/04/2020 21:46:25
The question of God for the scientific community is to try to understand the encounters of man with God. The information in the Bible and Gospels and other holy books tend to be mythological. Man encounters God but the intelligence of the holy books is no greater than the intelligence of man at the time they were written. A super intelligent God does not exist. A God that created the universe does not exist. The universe is a five dimensional structure that perpetually oscillates from minimum radius to maximum radius forever. No God is required or necessary for the universe to exist.
Once you get rid of the idea of an all mighty creator God, one must ask what kind of a God we have. Who spoke to Moses and Jesus and the other prophets of man? This was a natural God, an evolved God. As man evolves God evolves. Thus God is a higher form of evolved life.
God has no eyes. His eyes are the eyes of man and the animals. Man is the highest evolved animal man serves God best. Man needs God to survive and God needs man to survive. God needs astronomical data so that he can beam Godself and the collective memory of the spirits of man to a new Earth.
I have just finished my latest book “God and Futureman upon the New Earth”. I will discuss it here if people are interested. Since childhood I spoke to my God and my God spoke to me. In 1981 at age 42 God demanded that I study physics, philosophy, and religion so that I could explain God and the Universe to man. It has not been an easy job and people care very little. Agents and publishers are not interested because it is not a money making proposition. It cost me money and I give most of my books away. Yet I do it because I promised my God that I would.
Now that I am 81 years, my life is coming to an end. My job is done. It has been an adventure. I did not want this job but I was forced into it. Why me I ask? I am not religious. There is no real reward or punishment. The spirits of most are erased in death. The spirits of some are absorbed by God and become part of Futureman upon the future new Earth. In either case the self is gone.
Religions like to have rewards and punishments. Yet God wants to live and man is necessary for Gods survival.
If people are interested I will discuss my latest book here.
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 22:25:52
Dr. Robert Blair
We learn about Jesus primarily from the New Testament. But we learn about Jesus also from other early sources. One such source of information and confirmation is the collection of non-Christian material about Jesus, both Roman and Jewish. For example, Princeton biblical scholar Bruce Metzger says that even without the New Testament records, “early non-Christian testimonies concerning Jesus, though scanty, are sufficient to prove … that he was a historical figure who lived in Palestine in the early years of the first century, that he gathered a group of followers about himself, and that he was condemned to death under Pontius Pilate. Today, no competent scholar denies the historicity of Jesus.”
One of Jesus's clearest self-identifying statements came in response to the Jewish leaders' direct question: "How long will you keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly" (John 10:24).
“I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:25-30)
Of course HE lived. Intelligent, informed people recognize it. It isn't in dispute except for a few hippies who have to be different.
But, what can we discover about HIM? If we know HE lived, and we do, what information is available that defines HIM in greater detail, anything? Of course. The same info we rely upon informing us that such a Man lived, tells us infinitely more about HIM. The people who wrote His biographies did not make, and did not try to make, a single dime from their work. Many of His most passionate followers ended up losing everything they did have. Steve, for example, was murdered in broad daylight as a Super Pharisee approvingly looked on.
The agreement among the oldest texts we have demonstrates clearly we know what the original texts said. Thank GOD the originals are gone. Imagine how much blood would spill if we had them?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/04/2020 23:58:16
His biographies did not make, and did not try to make, a single dime from their work.LOL
They are still doing it
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/17/anti-lgbt-pastor-tony-spell-church-stimulus-cheques-checks-coronavirus-covid-19-unemployment/
Post by: duffyd on 17/04/2020 23:59:20
No other sinless life recorded throughout historyMine isn't over yet, but it will be recorded as sinless, if anyone cares to do so. Get real, Duffy.
As the Roman governor of Bithynia-Pontus (now in modern Turkey) Pliny wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan around 112 AD and asked for counsel on dealing with Christians. In the letter (Epistulae X.96) Pliny detailed an account of how he conducted trials of suspected Christians who appeared before him as a result of anonymous accusations and asked for the Emperor's guidance on how they should be treated. Pliny had never performed a legal investigation of Christians and thus consulted Trajan in order to be on solid ground regarding his actions. Pliny saved his letters and Trajan's replies and these are the earliest surviving Roman documents to refer to early Christians.
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/04/2020 00:16:11
Imagine some (suitably radiocarbon dated or whatever) document from the first few decades of the first century turns up listing in detail the actions of Jesus and the apostles.
That shows that there was a man.
It does not show that there was a God.
We know that there were plenty of people claiming to be the "messiah".
The Romans botched an execution and created a sort of martyr- one who was still alive.
That's a damned good selling point for your creed.
No God required.
Post by: duffyd on 18/04/2020 06:08:56
It's the "interpretation" bit that invokes contempt. A famous objection to university courses in English literature was "so much bad English has been written about good English". Much the same with Christianity.
How much would you pay for a bowdlerised sketch of a third-hand copy of a painting by an unknown artist of an event that he did not witness? Not a lot, I suspect. So why write pages of nonsense about a wholly unjustified interpretation of an edited collection of quasi-historical and bizarrely mystical texts?
At face value the bible contains some interesting snippets of the history and poetry of the Jews up to about 2000 years ago, with possibly too much emphasis (much of it tediously repeated and over-embellished) about Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth. There's plenty more, some in the Dead Sea Scrolls and more recently in the Encyclopaedia Judaica.
Little point in anyone else reading it as we don't accept converts easily, nor do we require a detailed knowledge of it - just a broad understanding of the underlying philosophy and acceptance of the rules of behavior. And don't kneel.
"it's the 'interpretation' bit"
"interesting tidbits"
You are a hundred million generations removed from realizations staring you in the face, Bucko
Ehrman and Metzger state in that book that we can have a high degree of confidence that we can reconstruct the original text of the New Testament, the text that is in the Bibles we use, because of the abundance of textual evidence we have to compare. The variations are largely minor and don’t obscure our ability to construct an accurate text. The 4th edition of this work was published in 2005 – the same year Ehrman published Misquoting Jesus, which relies on the same body of information and offers no new or different evidence to state the opposite conclusion.
(In 2005, Ehrman helped Metzger update and revise the classic work on the topic– Metzger’s The Text of the New Testament.)
Melinda Penner
Bruce Metzger is one of the great scholars of modern times, and I dedicated the book to him because he was both my inspiration for going into textual criticism and the person who trained me in the field. I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. And even though we may disagree on important religious questions – he is a firmly committed Christian and I am not – we are in complete agreement on a number of very important historical and textual questions. If he and I were put in a room and asked to hammer out a consensus statement on what we think the original text of the New Testament probably looked like, there would be very few points of disagreement – maybe one or two dozen places out of many thousands. The position I argue for in ‘Misquoting Jesus’ does not actually stand at odds with Prof. Metzger’s position that the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament.
Post by: duffyd on 18/04/2020 06:30:50
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/04/2020 12:49:07
Do you think they would write up HIS story with glaring nonsense filling their accounts?They did.
Have a look at the first page or so of Genesis.
Post by: alancalverd on 18/04/2020 15:21:32
you are the one who said JESUS was a Rabbi, a good guy, who got on the nerves of religious leaders and got Himself murdered by the Romans. How the heck did you come to those conclusions,I read the book. You should try it, with your eyes open.
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/04/2020 19:04:40
And againA Boy Named Sue. I have no bias.It rather looks as if you have.
You refer to your imaginary friend as male- well, that's traditional.
But it seems that when you have an imaginary adversary, they are female.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=79132.msg600192#msg600192
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=79132.msg600349#msg600349
You sound exactly like her. She's the one who freaks if she's not the center of attention 24/7 in every conversation.
Obviously, whenever facts undermine the silliness you perpetuate, you forget your arguments and become 4 years old, just like her.
Post by: duffyd on 18/04/2020 19:09:29
See, you sound just like her. You didn't (can't) answer questions I asked which proves you lie and run away and don't have a scientific basis to reject HIM. Don't think no one notices you have nothing to contribute. In fact, because you and others on your side have nothing to add to the debate, many visitors will be drawn closer to HIM. And that is my goal.you are the one who said JESUS was a Rabbi, a good guy, who got on the nerves of religious leaders and got Himself murdered by the Romans. How the heck did you come to those conclusions,I read the book. You should try it, with your eyes open.
Post by: duffyd on 18/04/2020 19:16:47
Once again, science proves HE IS. Glory
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/04/2020 19:19:09
You didn't (can't) answer questions I asked which proves you lieNo; it does not.
I have not refused to answer any question (I may have overlooked some).
However it's well documented that you say things that are not true and that you regularly fail to address major issues with your viewpoint.
See, you sound just like her.You need to deal with your "imaginary friends" problem.
Don't think no one notices you have nothing to contribute. In fact, because you and others on your side have nothing to add to the debate, many visitors will be drawn closer to HIM. And that is my goal.And that's another delusion you need to address.
You have yet to put forward anything but the most trivial evidence in support of your view.
You just ignore all the facts.
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/04/2020 19:19:32
I just included valuable information which refutes the other side.Where?
Post by: duffyd on 18/04/2020 21:35:31
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/04/2020 22:17:16
I just included valuable information which refutes the other side.Where?
Post by: alancalverd on 18/04/2020 23:30:20
You didn't (can't) answer questions I asked which proves you lieI answered your question precisely. Everyone who ever called me a liar had a very unpleasant death. Be careful what you wish for.
Post by: duffyd on 19/04/2020 03:33:22
You didn't (can't) answer questions I asked which proves you lieI answered your question precisely. Everyone who ever called me a liar had a very unpleasant death. Be careful what you wish for.
the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death
I wish I could help you
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/04/2020 08:58:52
I just included valuable information which refutes the other side.Where?
Post by: jerrygg38 on 19/04/2020 11:06:08
Instead of depending on others to form your opinions about the New Testament, you owe it to yourself and your sphere of influence, to get your act together and find out just exactly what we know about the gospels and the epistles. You are an educated individual, obviously, however, you are lost on this topic and your ignorance should embarrass you. It really should. Do you really believe Jewish men and women fell for some kind of huckster? Do you think they would write up HIS story with glaring nonsense filling their accounts? Do you really think they would fail in their quest to ensure the greatest story ever told would be handed down accurately? Do you really think they would sacrifice everything, their families, their religious traditions, their status, their careers, their lives over hogwash? Are you nuts? Have you lost your mind?
GG: The Bible is a mixture of mythology and spiritual truth.It was written by people who actually believed such things. Why? God has the ability to control one's mind. The mythology enables the believers something to believe in and the non-believers something to dispute. It the Bible was scientifically perfect human freedom would be diminished. In any event God is an evolved entity andwas at the level of man at the time the Bible was written.
Post by: duffyd on 19/04/2020 15:23:28
Duffy says:
Instead of depending on others to form your opinions about the New Testament, you owe it to yourself and your sphere of influence, to get your act together and find out just exactly what we know about the gospels and the epistles. You are an educated individual, obviously, however, you are lost on this topic and your ignorance should embarrass you. It really should. Do you really believe Jewish men and women fell for some kind of huckster? Do you think they would write up HIS story with glaring nonsense filling their accounts? Do you really think they would fail in their quest to ensure the greatest story ever told would be handed down accurately? Do you really think they would sacrifice everything, their families, their religious traditions, their status, their careers, their lives over hogwash? Are you nuts? Have you lost your mind?
GG: The Bible is a mixture of mythology and spiritual truth.It was written by people who actually believed such things. Why? God has the ability to control one's mind. The mythology enables the believers something to believe in and the non-believers something to dispute. It the Bible was scientifically perfect human freedom would be diminished. In any event God is an evolved entity andwas at the level of man at the time the Bible was written.
Harold Hughes did not run for a second term, instead announcing he would dedicate his activities to "efforts in alcoholism and drug treatment fields, working for social causes and world peace" through a "spiritual approach". He was a democratic governor of Iowa and a U.S. Senator who became close friends with Chuck Colson. Testimonies declaring HIS love are everywhere.
"The Bible is a mixture of mythology and spiritual truth" for examples? Would you mind filling that in thoroughly? Many say the same thing but are short on follow through.
"It was written by people who actually believed such things." What do you believe about Jesus Christ? Who do you think He was?
Post by: duffyd on 19/04/2020 15:29:07
Duffy says:I think it's great that you put forth the effort to address what I wrote for Alan. But, why doesn't Al answer? He blows smoke. He runs away. You see the problem? He wants to come across as someone who knows about the N.T., yet, he cannot participate without becoming juvenile.
Instead of depending on others to form your opinions about the New Testament, you owe it to yourself and your sphere of influence, to get your act together and find out just exactly what we know about the gospels and the epistles. You are an educated individual, obviously, however, you are lost on this topic and your ignorance should embarrass you. It really should. Do you really believe Jewish men and women fell for some kind of huckster? Do you think they would write up HIS story with glaring nonsense filling their accounts? Do you really think they would fail in their quest to ensure the greatest story ever told would be handed down accurately? Do you really think they would sacrifice everything, their families, their religious traditions, their status, their careers, their lives over hogwash? Are you nuts? Have you lost your mind?
GG: The Bible is a mixture of mythology and spiritual truth.It was written by people who actually believed such things. Why? God has the ability to control one's mind. The mythology enables the believers something to believe in and the non-believers something to dispute. It the Bible was scientifically perfect human freedom would be diminished. In any event God is an evolved entity andwas at the level of man at the time the Bible was written.
Post by: duffyd on 19/04/2020 18:10:22
I just included valuable information which refutes the other side. They ignore it, add nonsense, and accuse me of spam. As I've said, they already believe. They know HE IS. They pretend they don't until the nonsense they post is proven to be just that. Then, they give up and spam.
Once again, science proves HE IS. Glory
Mods, Someone answered my question for Alan. She answered in Alan's place, as if she were Alan, as if her answer was Alan's. Would you remind her to respect others who participate here? Thanks
Post by: duffyd on 19/04/2020 18:25:30
No other figure in world history can attest to influencing people like this. No dead person has risen from the grave and convinced others of His resurrection as the Son of GOD. It hasn't happened. But, He rose from the dead and promises to all who would seek HIM, that HE will be found. No one has sought HIM with their whole being and not met HIM personally.
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/04/2020 18:44:34
. She answered in Alan's place, as if she were Alan, as if her answer was Alan's. Would you remind her to respect others who participate here? ThanksWhom do you think you are talking about?
Post by: duffyd on 20/04/2020 07:38:45
It's the "interpretation" bit that invokes contempt. A famous objection to university courses in English literature was "so much bad English has been written about good English". Much the same with Christianity.
How much would you pay for a bowdlerised sketch of a third-hand copy of a painting by an unknown artist of an event that he did not witness? Not a lot, I suspect. So why write pages of nonsense about a wholly unjustified interpretation of an edited collection of quasi-historical and bizarrely mystical texts?
At face value the bible contains some interesting snippets of the history and poetry of the Jews up to about 2000 years ago, with possibly too much emphasis (much of it tediously repeated and over-embellished) about Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth. There's plenty more, some in the Dead Sea Scrolls and more recently in the Encyclopaedia Judaica.
Little point in anyone else reading it as we don't accept converts easily, nor do we require a detailed knowledge of it - just a broad understanding of the underlying philosophy and acceptance of the rules of behavior. And don't kneel.
Joseph Klausner wrote, “It is universally admitted … that Christ taught the purest and sublimest ethics." He wrote, "Jesus of Nazareth: His Life, Times & Teaching." Highly regarded.
Post by: duffyd on 20/04/2020 08:03:49
Yet Jesus’ greatness was obvious to all those who saw and heard him. And while most great people eventually fade into history books, Jesus is still the focus of thousands of books and unparalleled media controversy. And much of that controversy revolves around the radical claims Jesus made about himself—claims that astounded both his followers and his adversaries.
It was primarily Jesus’ unique claims that caused him to be viewed as a threat by both the Roman authorities and the Jewish hierarchy. Although he was an outsider with no credentials or political power base, within three years, Jesus changed the world for the next 20 centuries. Other moral and religious leaders have left an impact—but nothing like that unknown carpenter’s son from Nazareth.
well written. it continues.
jesusonline
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/04/2020 08:44:13
Joseph Klausner wrote, “It is universally admitted … that Christ taught the purest and sublimest ethics."Specifically, he said that we should carry on with the homophobia, slavery etc.
So it's plainly not true that it is "universally admitted".
Why tell that lie?
Post by: alancalverd on 20/04/2020 11:37:50
Joseph Klausner wrote, “It is universally admitted … that Christ taught the purest and sublimest ethics."Not sure about "universal" - a lot of muslims would disagree, but it was pretty mainstream Judaism. None of that Christian rubbish about witch-burning and forgiveness.
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/04/2020 12:46:24
Christian rubbish about witch-burningThe killing witches bit is from Exodus 22:18.
And Exodus is usually ascribed to Moses, rather than to Christ.
Post by: alancalverd on 20/04/2020 13:03:39
Quote
It has also been suggested that the word "witch" might be a mistranslation of "poisoner."which makes more sense in terms of practical law.
Post by: duffyd on 20/04/2020 13:31:20
Joseph Klausner wrote, “It is universally admitted … that Christ taught the purest and sublimest ethics."Not sure about "universal" - a lot of muslims would disagree, but it was pretty mainstream Judaism. None of that Christian rubbish about witch-burning and forgiveness.
Magic and divination were practised extensively in the ancient world, as indeed they are still among uncivilised peoples and among the uneducated even in civilised countries: we have particularly abundant information respecting the practice of them in Assyria (see briefly the writer’s Daniel, in the Camb. Bible, p. 13 ff., more fully Jastrow, Relig. of Bab. and Ass. (1898), pp. 352–406). As inconsistent with the spirit the religion of Jehovah, as fostering superstition, and as associated commonly with heathen beliefs, they are condemned repeatedly in the OT.: see Leviticus 19:31; Leviticus 20:6; Leviticus 20:27 (all H), and esp. Deuteronomy 18:10-11, locus classicus on the subject, where eight types are enumerated (see the writer’s note ad loc.); and often in the prophets. See further on the subject, with numerous illustrations of the methods of magic practised different parts of the world, O. C. Whitehouse’s articles Magic, Soothsayer, Sorcery, in DB. a sorceress] The fem. (only here) of the word rendered sorcerer in Deuteronomy 18:10, Malachi 3:5, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Daniel 2:2†: cf. Jeremiah 27:9; and sorceries in 2 Kings 9:22, Micah 5:11, Nahum 3:4, Isaiah 47:9; Isaiah 47:12†. Micah 5:11 seems to shew that the ‘sorceries’ were something material, such as drugs, herbs, &c., used superstitiously for the purpose of producing magical effects. Sorcery was resorted to for all kinds of purposes, to heal diseases, to ward off disasters, to bring misfortune upon a neighbour, to inspire a woman with love, &c.; it was often supposed to operate by the power obtained through incantations or other spells over spirits (the Arab. jinn).
The law is one which, as the reader need hardly be reminded, has often been woefully misapplied, and led to the committal of great cruelties: witches were often burnt in the middle ages; and they were executed in England as late as 1716. The right feeling that sorcery is debasing and superstitious finds expression in a law which is no doubt not out of harmony with the severe punishments common in the East, even to modern times,—and even, we may add, in mediaeval Europe: but the law belongs to the older dispensation, and does not breathe the spirit of Christ (Luke 9:55). The rise of a historical sense, and the recognition that the revelation contained in the OT. was progressive and that the laws given to Israel are not, simply as such, binding upon Christian nations, have taught men that an injunction such as this can have no place in a Christian law-book.
Post by: duffyd on 21/04/2020 05:35:15
Exactly my point, or at least parallel to it. Christians ignore Christ's teaching (forgiveness), invent or ignore some selfcongratulatory drivel, then say they are doing it in Jesus' name.QuoteIt has also been suggested that the word "witch" might be a mistranslation of "poisoner."which makes more sense in terms of practical law.
I've got a million bucks. all yours for the taking! Come and get it!
Money is filthy and disgusting. Look around a little and see what money did to people. It financed wars, created poison and chemicals for weapons, polluted our earth with gasoline purchases, drives the porn industry, the mafia, all the rotten churches and ministers who demanded donations, caused people to hate each other over who had more of it, bribed people to do all kinds of horrible things. No. You keep your filthy lucre. It's not going to ruin me.
But, it's just money. You don't have to make it ruin you.
You don't have any money. You have no evidence that you have 2 dimes.
Well, go to the bank. It is in an envelope with your name on it.
LOL. Sure it is. Your imaginary money is just gonna have to wait. I'm not falling for that crap.
But, go see. The bank is right where you are and all you have to do is ask for it.
LOL. Yea, I know FSM is just dying for me to ask for it. You fool. Go play with your skydaddy, I've got important things to do, like tell everyone that money sucks, cause
1. It doesn't exist
2. It destroys everybody who thinks he has it. They wear upside down funnels on their heads and abuse children with all their so-called cash.
Having money has nothing to do with that stuff
Sure! That's why everybody who pretends to have money is a filthy, dirty, rotten jerk who rips off everybody.
What about people who give to charity?
Don't lie to me. Show me the evidence where people give away money and don't demand favors in return. Go ahead. I dare you.
But, it's your money. You can help tons of people with it. Just go pick it up!
LOL. I tried that bank and they charged me a million bucks in overdraft fees and I got nothing! Who do you think you're messing with, right fellas?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/04/2020 09:11:13
What topic did you think you posted that in?Exactly my point, or at least parallel to it. Christians ignore Christ's teaching (forgiveness), invent or ignore some selfcongratulatory drivel, then say they are doing it in Jesus' name.QuoteIt has also been suggested that the word "witch" might be a mistranslation of "poisoner."which makes more sense in terms of practical law.
I've got a million bucks. all yours for the taking! Come and get it!
Money is filthy and disgusting. Look around a little and see what money did to people. It financed wars, created poison and chemicals for weapons, polluted our earth with gasoline purchases, drives the porn industry, the mafia, all the rotten churches and ministers who demanded donations, caused people to hate each other over who had more of it, bribed people to do all kinds of horrible things. No. You keep your filthy lucre. It's not going to ruin me.
But, it's just money. You don't have to make it ruin you.
You don't have any money. You have no evidence that you have 2 dimes.
Well, go to the bank. It is in an envelope with your name on it.
LOL. Sure it is. Your imaginary money is just gonna have to wait. I'm not falling for that crap.
But, go see. The bank is right where you are and all you have to do is ask for it.
LOL. Yea, I know FSM is just dying for me to ask for it. You fool. Go play with your skydaddy, I've got important things to do, like tell everyone that money sucks, cause
1. It doesn't exist
2. It destroys everybody who thinks he has it. They wear upside down funnels on their heads and abuse children with all their so-called cash.
Having money has nothing to do with that stuff
Sure! That's why everybody who pretends to have money is a filthy, dirty, rotten jerk who rips off everybody.
What about people who give to charity?
Don't lie to me. Show me the evidence where people give away money and don't demand favors in return. Go ahead. I dare you.
But, it's your money. You can help tons of people with it. Just go pick it up!
LOL. I tried that bank and they charged me a million bucks in overdraft fees and I got nothing! Who do you think you're messing with, right fellas?
Post by: duffyd on 24/04/2020 22:57:01
Science cannot deny the overwhelming value found in the testimonies of hundreds of millions of people when they declare that JESUS CHRIST became real to them personally and that HE Himself changed their lives.
No other figure in world history can attest to influencing people like this. No dead person has risen from the grave and convinced others of His resurrection as the Son of GOD. It hasn't happened. But, He rose from the dead and promises to all who would seek HIM, that HE will be found. No one has sought HIM with their whole being and not met HIM personally.
FROM ATHEISM TO CHRISTIAN AT YALE
Dad imprisoned when he was 9 years old and GOD didn't answer his prayer to return him home....
Post by: duffyd on 24/04/2020 23:29:59
Mira Sorvino – Academy Award-winning actress is a Christian today. Love her.
Post by: duffyd on 24/04/2020 23:39:24
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 00:51:20
Testimonies from Christians are powerful scientific forms of evidence for GOD's existence.Wrong on every major count.
Dad imprisoned when he was 9 years old and GOD didn't answer his prayer to return him homeAnd yet, the God of the Bible would have done so.
It's as if that God does not exist.
The odds that so many people, from such diverse backgrounds, for over two thousand years, state unequivocally that HE HIMSELF, risen from the dead and live in their hearts, are infiniteNope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cause_and_special_cause_(statistics)#Common_mode_failure_in_engineering
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 00:52:48
It is so mind boggling.I am sorry to hear that your mind is boggled.
Please come back when it is working properly.
Preferably not before then.
Post by: duffyd on 25/04/2020 01:15:47
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 11:55:07
Proof positive lies within the souls of all who choose to seek HIM and no one can deny that fact with any evidence.In order to present that as "proof" you need to explain why no other mechanism is possible.
In particular, you need to explain away the idea that they are mistaken having been "brainwashed" into belief.
So, over to you.
What's you proof of that?
Post by: duffyd on 25/04/2020 12:43:57
Testimonies from Christians are powerful scientific forms of evidence for GOD's existence. Millions testify to the same kinds of personal, life transforming experiences which by definition have evidentiary value. The odds that so many people, from such diverse backgrounds, for over two thousand years, state unequivocally that HE HIMSELF, risen from the dead and alive in their hearts, are infinite and must be taken very seriously by anyone looking into the possibility that Christ was in fact WHO HE claimed to be.
Combine this evidence with all the other evidence we have and there is no doubt JESUS is exactly WHO HE claimed to be to a scientific certainty.
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 12:50:27
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cause_and_special_cause_(statistics)#Common_mode_failure_in_engineering
Essentially " a million lemmings can't be wrong" is not a valid argument.
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 12:52:00
Combine this evidenceIt's not evidence, it's hearsay.
You seem reluctant to even try to recognise that "someone told me a story" is not evidence.
Post by: duffyd on 25/04/2020 15:10:59
It's the "interpretation" bit that invokes contempt. A famous objection to university courses in English literature was "so much bad English has been written about good English". Much the same with Christianity.
How much would you pay for a bowdlerised sketch of a third-hand copy of a painting by an unknown artist of an event that he did not witness? Not a lot, I suspect. So why write pages of nonsense about a wholly unjustified interpretation of an edited collection of quasi-historical and bizarrely mystical texts?
At face value the bible contains some interesting snippets of the history and poetry of the Jews up to about 2000 years ago, with possibly too much emphasis (much of it tediously repeated and over-embellished) about Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth. There's plenty more, some in the Dead Sea Scrolls and more recently in the Encyclopaedia Judaica.
Little point in anyone else reading it as we don't accept converts easily, nor do we require a detailed knowledge of it - just a broad understanding of the underlying philosophy and acceptance of the rules of behavior. And don't kneel.
Joseph Klausner wrote, “It is universally admitted … that Christ taught the purest and sublimest ethics." He wrote, "Jesus of Nazareth: His Life, Times & Teaching." Highly regarded.
"Since the beginning of my philosophical life I have followed the policy of Plato's Socrates: We must follow the argument wherever it leads."
In late 2006, Flew joined 11 other academics in urging the British government to teach intelligent design in the state schools.
In 2007, in an interview with Benjamin Wiker, Flew said again that his deism was the result of his "growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe" and "my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself – which is far more complex than the physical Universe – can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source." wikipedia
Flew concluded, "A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature."
"that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe" FLEW
Sometimes the most outspoken atheists come to understand that life itself is too incredible for there not to be a creator. It is a terrific beginning, but just that. Upon deeper investigation, as CS Lewis discovered, (and hundreds of millions of others) GOD not only is, HE is found in the person of JESUS CHRIST.
Once again, Alan's silly comments reveal how little he and those like him understand the reality of JESUS.
Post by: duffyd on 25/04/2020 15:16:28
Post by: duffyd on 25/04/2020 15:18:23
“The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact.”
“I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially to the extent to which it has been applied, will be one of the greatest jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity it has.” Muggeridge is more than a genius
Post by: duffyd on 25/04/2020 15:20:58
“The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact.”
“I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially to the extent to which it has been applied, will be one of the greatest jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity it has.” Muggeridge is more than a genius
“The orgasm has replaced the Cross as the focus of longing and the image of fulfillment.” Malcolm M. Who else? He had a way of nailing the truth.
Post by: duffyd on 25/04/2020 15:26:39
“The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact.”
“I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially to the extent to which it has been applied, will be one of the greatest jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity it has.” Muggeridge is more than a genius
“The orgasm has replaced the Cross as the focus of longing and the image of fulfillment.” Malcolm M. Who else? He had a way of nailing the truth.
[Pascal] was the first and perhaps is still the most effective voice to be raised in warning of the consequences of the enthronement of the human ego in contradistinction to the cross, symbolizing the ego's immolation. How beautiful it all seemed at the time of the Enlightenment, that man triumphant would bring to pass that earthly paradise whose groves of academe would ensure the realization forever of peace, plenty, and beatitude in practice. But what a nightmare of wars, famines, and folly was to result therefrom.” (The End of Christendom)
I don't know about same sex marriage anymore. I used to be convinced. Now, after reading and becoming familiar with Pascal and Malcolm,
including the movie M produced on Mother Teresa, I'm pretty sure if they were still alive, I would marry the guys.
Post by: duffyd on 25/04/2020 15:29:49
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 16:23:02
People do not believe lies because they have to but because they want to.Yes.
I think I already made that point.
comforting lie.png (351.74 kB . 603x448 - viewed 2719 times)Religion tells comforting lies.
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 16:23:57
You seem reluctant to even try to recognise that "someone told me a story" is not evidence.
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 16:26:22
“The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact.”If that's true then it's proof that , if there's a designer, He's incompetent.
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 16:29:33
“The orgasm has replaced the Cross as the focus of longing and the image of fulfillment.” Malcolm M. Who else? He had a way of nailing the truth.OK, one is emblematic of the only real continuation of life after death.
The other is an instrument of torture.
Which do you feel we should worship?
"He had a way of nailing the truth."
His nails did to the truth what Christ's nails did to him.
Post by: alancalverd on 25/04/2020 23:30:14
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 00:45:45
The Second Coming actually took place about 100 years ago. Jesus materialised before the Pope and asked about the state of religion on earth. The Pope showed him his crucifix and said "There are billions like this". Jesus said "If they are still using that bloody thing, I'm wasting my time." He was never seen again, nor ever will be, by people who revere instruments of torture and execution.
Have you considered coming up with something new, something creative, something that hasn't been used since the first century? Drinking blood is kind of old, don't you think? And, you still can't get your dates straight. My, my, my Sweet Old Al, you still have no idea, do you? Remember all those verses you quoted out of context? Why bother if the N.T. is as hodgepodge as you say? See your dilemma? You can't erase the N.T. and its unparalleled impact, and you won't surrender to its unique claim on your life. Tough place to be, old boy. You're stuck. Hiding from what you know is true cripples your intellect and everything else about you. You can't move forward, but sliding back into insignificance inevitably grates on your consciousness.
You are not alone. You have come face-to-face with you and you have nowhere to go, except to HIM. Many a tortured soul has confronted the same problem. Honesty is the way through. Admitting the truth is the pits, but it's the path to freedom. "LORD GOD, if it's true, if YOU really are GOD, if YOU really exist, show me! Please! I'm begging YOU."
Use the science of psychology. What keeps you stuck? "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and dine with him, and he with ME."
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 00:54:17
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/04/2020 09:22:15
Have you considered coming up with something new, something creative, something that hasn't been used since the first century?WHy?
The facts that were put forward in the first century are still facts today.
The God squad has yet to counter them successfully.
They just lie about it and pretend that they have proof of God.
It's like a 3 year old who tells you that he knows a secret- but he's not going to tell you what it is.
Resisting GOD is a form of hell. It's a miserable place to be.No, it's not.
And I get to have a lie-in on Sunday morning.
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 10:49:38
People do not believe lies because they have to but because they want to. MuggeridgeThat little golden nugget of truth is proven true by the myriad false statements enjoyed so well by those who refuse to accept science.
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/04/2020 11:00:37
No.People do not believe lies because they have to but because they want to. MuggeridgeThat little golden nugget of truth is proven true by the myriad false statements enjoyed so well by those who refuse to accept science.
The scientists don't believe lies, they believe evidence. That's the point.
However followers of most religions must be believing lies.
Because the different religions can not all be right.
So their believers must be believing lies.
And they do it because it's a comforting lie.
Muggeridge's statement shows why you should not put any trust in those who claim "It will be OK; God will look after you", because that's the ultimate example of what people want to believe.
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 11:03:33
Resisting GOD is a form of hell. It's a miserable place to be. Striving against HIS will produces nothing but anger, anxiety, ill will, restlessness, torment and futility. Surrender, as unpleasant as it can seem, is the answer. Many famous, respected, popular, hard working, well meaning folks have found HIM to be true. Many more desperate, down-and-out people on the fringe of society shout the same findings in HIM.
The proof of that declaration is splattered all over these pages. The bitterness, the stench of false pride, the pure silliness of Alan's attempts at discarding the facts (200 and 300 years, HE was a nice guy, etc.) don't fool anyone, even though he is convinced otherwise. Just like the drunk who knows there is a heaven because, as he points to his gut, he says, I've got hell right here. It is easy to appreciate the suffering he tries to conceal. That's the best he knows to do, but it is blatant. All the while people from every conceivable background raise their voices in one perfectly harmonized, blasting cheer, "HE IS RISEN."
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/04/2020 11:10:37
Can you explain, in scientific terms, how we would distinguish between that post of yours and the views of someone suffering from some sort of delusions?Resisting GOD is a form of hell. It's a miserable place to be. Striving against HIS will produces nothing but anger, anxiety, ill will, restlessness, torment and futility. Surrender, as unpleasant as it can seem, is the answer. Many famous, respected, popular, hard working, well meaning folks have found HIM to be true. Many more desperate, down-and-out people on the fringe of society shout the same findings in HIM.
The proof of that declaration is splattered all over these pages. The bitterness, the stench of false pride, the pure silliness of Alan's attempts at discarding the facts (200 and 300 years, HE was a nice guy, etc.) don't fool anyone, even though he is convinced otherwise. Just like the drunk who says he knows there is a heaven because, as he points to his gut, he says, I've got hell right here. It is easy to appreciate the suffering he tries to conceal. That's the best he knows to do, but it is blatant. All the while people from every conceivable background raise their voices in one perfectly harmonized, blasting cheer, "HE IS RISEN."
I ask, because as far as I can tell it looks like mad ramblings.
In particular you witter on about what other people think, without having found out what they actually think.
Have a look at some of the non- religious arguments going on here. They are very similar in many ways. The language, for example, is hard to distinguish.
So your view that there's something special about our objection to your irrational jabber is mistaken.
We take the same approach to others who flouth logic and reality.
Have a look here, for example.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=79004.0
or here
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=79405.0
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 11:11:32
Scientists conducting double blind, controlled studies don't yield such results, nothing close.
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 11:19:21
Hundreds of millions of human beings across time and space in unison declaring the glory in/of JESUS CHRIST is overwhelming evidence that indeed HE rose from the grave. Scientists know this. It is perfectly clear. One must kick against the pricks to deny it and we know what happens to the most virulent among them.
Scientists conducting double blind, controlled studies don't yield such results, nothing close.
The most difficult problem one faces when he refuses to see what is plain as day, is how uncomfortable he is. Everything is tainted in his life by rejecting truth, by ignoring the reality that GOD is and that HIS SON gave up HIS life to redeem mankind. Whosoever will. Nothing in his heart is calm and whole. Like growing up in a mafia saturated tradition, one cannot see what is obvious to others who were not trained in violence and greed.
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 11:28:19
Hundreds of millions of human beings across time and space in unison declaring the glory in/of JESUS CHRIST is overwhelming evidence that indeed HE rose from the grave. Scientists know this. It is perfectly clear. One must kick against the pricks to deny it and we know what happens to the most virulent among them.
Scientists conducting double blind, controlled studies don't yield such results, nothing close.
The most difficult problem one faces when he refuses to see what is plain as day, is how uncomfortable he is. Everything is tainted in his life by rejecting truth, by ignoring the reality that GOD is and that HIS SON gave up HIS life to redeem mankind. Whosoever will. Nothing in his heart is calm and whole. Like growing up in a mafia saturated tradition, one cannot see what is obvious to others who were not trained in violence and greed.
Boko Haram Executes Pastor Who Turned Hostage Video into Testimony
(UPDATED) Beheaded Brethren leader taken captive in Nigeria said he was at peace with death because Jesus “is still alive.”
JAYSON CASPER
I'm a Rare Breed: An Elite Chess Player Who’s Open About His Faith
Why I follow Jesus publicly, even when people warn that my career will suffer. Wesley So
A wonderful account of CHRIST'S love.
How God Sent His Word to An Iraqi Interpreter
I saw an American soldier reading his Bible, and I wanted to know more.
Abbas Hameed
A Local Preacher and a Jailhouse Jesus Freak Brought Me to Faith in Prison
I was sentenced to life for a murder I didn't commit. But God didn't forget me.
Gene McGuire
I Was a New-Age Healer. Then I Realized I Wasn’t the One Doing the Healing.
Why a Reiki master renounced her craft to follow Jesus.
Nicole Watt
I Was Warned to Keep My Distance from ‘Infidels.’ Then One Prayed for My Family.
How a son of the Arabian Gulf met the Son of God in a strange new place.
Zaine Abd Al-Qays
I Assumed Science Had All the Answers. Then I Started Asking Inconvenient Questions.
My journey from atheist dogma to Christian faith was paved with intellectual and spiritual surprises.
Sy Garte
My Name Was on a Federal Most-Wanted List. Now It’s Written in the Book of Life.
When the authorities caught up with my financial shenanigans, I went on the run. But Christ caught up with me.
RICHARD D. MANGONE WITH PETER K. JOHNSON
Testimonies like these stream on and on and on and on for 2,000 years. How different HE is portrayed by those who know HIM personally from those who know so little.
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/04/2020 11:32:13
Hundreds of millions of human beings across time and space in unison declaring the glory in/of JESUS CHRIST is overwhelming evidence that indeed HE rose from the grave.Even more non-Christians not doing so is stronger evidence that He didn't.
Did you not realise that?
The most difficult problem one faces when he refuses to see what is plain as day, is how uncomfortable he is. Everything is tainted in his life by rejecting truth, by ignoring the reality that GOD is and that HIS SON gave up HIS life to redeem mankind. Whosoever will. Nothing in his heart is calm and whole. Like growing up in a mafia saturated tradition, one cannot see what is obvious to others who were not trained in violence and greed.You need a mirror.
It's the church that acts like the Mafia.
Also, you forgot to answer the question
Can you explain, in scientific terms, how we would distinguish between that post of yours and the views of someone suffering from some sort of delusions?
Post by: alancalverd on 26/04/2020 11:39:54
a mafia saturated tradition, one cannot see what is obvious to others who were not trained in violence and greed.I think that is a bit anti-Catholic. Or maybe anti-Anglican, given the violence of the early Church of Syphilis. Justifiably so, but wouldn't it be better to right past wrongs rather than continue to rehearse them to justify throwing stones at schoolkids?
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 12:13:41
a mafia saturated tradition, one cannot see what is obvious to others who were not trained in violence and greed.I think that is a bit anti-Catholic. Or maybe anti-Anglican, given the violence of the early Church of Syphilis. Justifiably so, but wouldn't it be better to right past wrongs rather than continue to rehearse them to justify throwing stones at schoolkids?
That's an ancient trick, too, Al. You surprise me dearly beloved. Someone with your smarts resorts to such nonsense to form arguing positions is sad. It is beneath you. You must be able to find something worthwhile, something with some weight or intellectual integrity behind it to use to defend your faith in HIM as a mere Rabbi, whacked for getting on the nerves of some people. No? I have to wonder if you've concluded you no longer have any foundation whatsoever to debate your side, or perhaps, as is becoming increasingly plausible, that you never did.
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/04/2020 12:19:51
I have to wonder if you've concluded you no longer have any foundation whatsoever to debate your side,You are not in a position to complain about that.
You consistently refuse to enter into debate.
I presume it's because you know your cause is lost.
Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 11:10:37
Can you explain, in scientific terms, how we would distinguish between that post of yours and the views of someone suffering from some sort of delusions?
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 12:37:57
The Second Coming actually took place about 100 years ago. Jesus materialised before the Pope and asked about the state of religion on earth. The Pope showed him his crucifix and said "There are billions like this". Jesus said "If they are still using that bloody thing, I'm wasting my time." He was never seen again, nor ever will be, by people who revere instruments of torture and execution."His buddies also called him GOD"
citation needed, particularly as none of the current bible was written by anyone who knew him. Big Al
Post by: duffyd on 26/04/2020 12:44:35
The Second Coming actually took place about 100 years ago. Jesus materialised before the Pope and asked about the state of religion on earth. The Pope showed him his crucifix and said "There are billions like this". Jesus said "If they are still using that bloody thing, I'm wasting my time." He was never seen again, nor ever will be, by people who revere instruments of torture and execution."His buddies also called him GOD"
citation needed, particularly as none of the current bible was written by anyone who knew him.
Nobody "penned the NT", or ever claimed to. It's a random collection of books and letters of vague provenance, collated edited and translated at various times for the benefit of whoever paid for the work. Big Al
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/04/2020 12:55:27
Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 11:32:13
Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 11:10:37
Can you explain, in scientific terms, how we would distinguish between that post of yours and the views of someone suffering from some sort of delusions?
Post by: alancalverd on 26/04/2020 14:04:28
Someone with your smarts resorts to such nonsense to form arguing positions is sad.Not nonsense. "Events, dear boy, events". (Harold Macmillan)
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/04/2020 17:44:34
OK, That's not an absurd view of it.The Second Coming actually took place about 100 years ago. Jesus materialised before the Pope and asked about the state of religion on earth. The Pope showed him his crucifix and said "There are billions like this". Jesus said "If they are still using that bloody thing, I'm wasting my time." He was never seen again, nor ever will be, by people who revere instruments of torture and execution."His buddies also called him GOD"
citation needed, particularly as none of the current bible was written by anyone who knew him.
Nobody "penned the NT", or ever claimed to. It's a random collection of books and letters of vague provenance, collated edited and translated at various times for the benefit of whoever paid for the work. Big Al
But given that the contemporary record is bad to non existent, how do we know what , if anything, Christ taught?
Post by: alancalverd on 27/04/2020 00:00:14
We can take it as fact that the Romans occupied the eastern Mediterranean between late BC and early AD, and that the occupied population in the area now known as Israel was predominantly Jewish.
People under military occupation tend to grumble a bit, and some of us are genetically predisposed to argue with each other as well as with authority.
It seems entirely likely that the Romans crucified the occasional rabble rouser pour decourager les autres and to keep favour with the native establishment.
There are various accounts of at least one such, born in Nazareth, who taught and preached in synagogues and in public places.
The core tenets of Judaism seem not to have changed in a very long time.
Ergo it is highly probable that Jesus of Nazareth taught something fairly close to what we now recognise as liberal Judaism.
Tweaks like "the sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the sabbath" are still disputed, and not only among Jewish scholars: children's playgrounds are locked on Sundays in Lewis, the Quran (650 AD) definitely forbids women to drive cars, and Jains, who have been around as long as Jews, may not eat root vegetables - but does that include onions that grow on the surface?
The model of an educated, religious, charismatic dissenter puts Jesus on a par with modern rebels like Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela - rare, but entirely probable.
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 01:36:15
There are various accounts of at least one such, born in Nazareth, who taught and preached in synagogues and in public places.
To which "various accounts" do you refer?
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 07:24:10
A quote for Alan
33 When they heard this, they were enraged and wanted to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while. 35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men. 36 For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!”
Instead of killing the disciples for proclaiming Christ was risen from the dead, they beat them and ordered them not to speak of Jesus.
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 07:29:51
The model of an educated, religious, charismatic dissenter puts Jesus on a par with modern rebels like Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela - rare, but entirely probable.
Saul/Paul was trained by Gamaliel. Paul said: 3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. 4 I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, 5 as the high priest and all the Council can themselves testify. I even obtained letters from them to their associates in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished.
"A Pharisee of Pharisees," he said.
Jesus received no such formal training as far as we know, and was never ordained or officially designated as a Rabbi, but HE drew to Himself those who were.
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 08:00:50
"'Because I understand the English language. It's my mother tongue.'"
Christ is blamed for practically every evil imaginable. But, if you simply read what He said, HE opposed evil, all evil, regardless which version or translation you read.
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/04/2020 08:49:58
Christ is blamed for practically every evil imaginable.Not really.
But if there is a God, then He has a lot to answer for.
The bad thing that Christ did was to tell people to carry on following the OT.
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 15:55:33
I have no reason to doubt that he existed. As I said much earlier, he was a radical rabbi (addressed by his friends as such) who was killed for causing trouble. Nothing unusual about that, nor was the radical Judaism he preached beyond the very broad span of our ancient traditions.
Good football coaches teach something they refer to as "staying on your block" which simply means, keep driving your legs and keep jamming your body with full force into the defender until the Ref blows his whistle. The phrase is just a reminder, a term that stresses the importance to persist, to keep going all out, and not let anything, anything, no matter what, direct your efforts away from that single minded goal.
To wit, I have asked alan and his like-minded teammates to answer my questions which derive from the numerous and outrageous errors they make continuously. I am in no hurry. We have a long time before that whistle blows.
Be aware, and if you are intelligent and a good dude/dudess, you can't miss it: Our intellectual superheroes don't participate in these debates as though they have any confidence in the positions they hold.
Again, my friend, what do you mean he was a radical rabbi? Where did you get that idea? You say his buds said that about him. What did they say? specifically, do you really know? (I don't think you do.)
Where is this text from?QuoteAgain, what radical form of Judaism did Jesus preach?
Karaitism.Quote"Nothing unusual about that,
Maybe not to another karaite.
But to the rabbinical groups like the pharisees of the time it was extremely radical.Quotenor was the radical Judaism he preached beyond the very broad span of our ancient traditions."
Completely incorrect. Jesus in Mark 7 utterly spoke against the these traditions. These takanot.
Matthew 15.QuoteWhat are you saying? Give several examples from his preaching. I don't believe you know.
Just did.QuoteHe preached HE HIMSELF was GOD ALMIGHTY
Show one place Jesus ever said that?
Just one...
At that time the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. 32But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”
33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?
37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”
39At this, they tried again to seize Him, but He escaped their grasp.
Post by: alancalverd on 27/04/2020 18:27:00
There is an underlying consensus that the bible is "accepted" as a collection of poetry, ethical principles, and historical records of dubious provenance and variable reliability, but generally consistent with the known history of the Middle East up to about 2000 years ago.
There is general disdain for Duffy's bizarre assertions and interpretations of some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament, which have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 18:50:32
To return to the subject of this thread
There is an underlying consensus that the bible is "accepted" as a collection of poetry, ethical principles, and historical records of dubious provenance and variable reliability, but generally consistent with the known history of the Middle East up to about 2000 years ago.
There is general disdain for Duffy's bizarre assertions and interpretations of some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament, which have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
I needed a good chuckle. Thanks.
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 19:37:20
To return to the subject of this thread
There is an underlying consensus that the bible is "accepted" as a collection of poetry, ethical principles, and historical records of dubious provenance and variable reliability, but generally consistent with the known history of the Middle East up to about 2000 years ago.
There is general disdain for Duffy's bizarre assertions and interpretations of some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament, which have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
You inched closer, not meaning to, but you did. You know what the best response a salesman can hope to get from a potential customer? "NO!" It's his best friend. Why? Without it he has nothing to work through. An easy, "Yes" stinks for a number of reasons, but an emphatic "NO!" is to die for.
Here's my point. You raise objections regarding why you refuse to believe in Jesus Christ GOD's Son. Most of them you toss out without thinking. But, every once in a while you get serious and expose the real reason why you reject HIM. That is precisely where the work needs to be done.
"Duffy's bizarre assertions and interpretations of some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament, which have nothing to do with the subject under discussion."
Not a thing bizarre about them, unless you'd like to explain what's bizarre?
"heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament..."
To which aspects of the N.T. do you refer? You took off the last time I asked you to get specific. It has angered you. There's hope.
You will not get specific, unfortunately. But, the key for you to see GOD comes down to a point in time when you decide intellectually to get into the fine details. When you can't run any further, HE very well may pop into your existence.
Dig, dig, dig into the grammar and the literay styles and the textual meaning of the words and you will find that what we have in the New Testament today in any of the major published accounts is more than dead on accurate to be 1,000% trustworthy. That's what the finest N.T. scholars say. You know that. But, search the Scriptures for yourself and you will find HIM.
What I am sharing on this topic is absolutely relevant. Scientists believe the Bible because it is completely reliable. Remember, too, it was written primarily by Jewish people who have more on the ball than any other people group. They are the most incredibly talented people in every respect.
(not including sports.)
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 19:53:46
To return to the subject of this thread
There is an underlying consensus that the bible is "accepted" as a collection of poetry, ethical principles, and historical records of dubious provenance and variable reliability, but generally consistent with the known history of the Middle East up to about 2000 years ago.
There is general disdain for Duffy's bizarre assertions and interpretations of some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament, which have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
To return to the subject of this thread
There is an underlying consensus that the bible is "accepted" as a collection of poetry, ethical principles, and historical records of dubious provenance and variable reliability, but generally consistent with the known history of the Middle East up to about 2000 years ago.
Just curious, Al, when did you ever care one iota what the underlying consensus of anything is?
Post by: alancalverd on 27/04/2020 22:39:20
dig into the grammar and the literay styles and the textual meaning of the words and you will find that what we have in the New Testament.....…..is the grammar, style and chosen content of the last editor. Which is why I praised the King James version for the power and beauty of its language.
Contrast the thunderous "O ye of little faith" with the New English Bible's simpering schoolgirl "How little faith you have!" Give the guy some dignity, please - he was killed for his oratory.
And Jesus' response to Pilate "Thou hast said" (KJV) which completely inverts the implicit blasphemy of latterday versions.
"Release unto us Barabbas". Funny how an otherwise unknown thief pops up in the last scene, says and does nothing, and gets a name credit. And what a name: bar-abbas - the Son of the Father. Imagine being crucified by a pun.
The bible says whatever its latest editor wants it to say. As it always has. So a healthy pinch of salt is recommended. And it's not just the NT that blows with the wind. English versions of Genesis vary in their assertion that animals do or do not have souls, depending on the fashion for bear-baiting at the time of writing.
Post by: alancalverd on 27/04/2020 23:08:17
Remember, too, it was written primarily by Jewish peopleNot the Tyndale or King James Version, on which all subsequent English revisions depend. The Jews were expelled from England in the 13th century and not readmitted until 50 years after the KJV was written.
Post by: duffyd on 27/04/2020 23:09:24
"Release unto us Barabbas". Funny how an otherwise unknown thief pops up in the last scene, says and does nothing, and gets a name credit. And what a name: bar-abbas - the Son of the Father. Imagine being crucified by a pun.
Still running.
Inverted?
Barabbas?
It shows how badly they wanted to get rid of HIM, just like you do. Hey boys, here's Jesus! Want Him? You can choose Him.
Nah. Free Barabbas, he's our man! We want that radical Rabbi to pay for His many sins. Crucify that lying pig!
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 01:52:24
Remember, too, it was written primarily by Jewish peopleNot the Tyndale or King James Version, on which all subsequent English revisions depend. The Jews were expelled from England in the 13th century and not readmitted until 50 years after the KJV was written.
You want to play games. Play solitaire. For the folks genuinely interested:
There are over 5300 manuscripts available today and the vast majority of these, at least 95%, agree with and support the textus Receptus.
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.
Follow In Truth
"What manuscripts did the KJV translators use?
Published by ljthriepland on September 30, 2018"
Guess who wrote the originals? "Bernie" He discovered ladies, too.
What impresses me is how perfectly I predict your non-answers. 1,000%.
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 02:37:46
Remember, too, it was written primarily by Jewish peopleNot the Tyndale or King James Version, on which all subsequent English revisions depend. The Jews were expelled from England in the 13th century and not readmitted until 50 years after the KJV was written.
some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament,
Thar she blows! Usain Alan is gone with the challenge. Again.
The question that scares him to death is simple and is based on his conjecture that: "some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament..."
Hide and watch Al disappear. Bro, I asked you before, which aspects? If you think you provided an answer in the gibberish you've shared, go directly to jail. Don't pass Go!
I do not want to humiliate Alan, but, apparently he's masochistic and doesn't mind if everyone knows this topic is not his forte.
Post by: alancalverd on 28/04/2020 10:47:43
Post by: alancalverd on 28/04/2020 10:54:13
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 12:29:24
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
You have a point. I confess. I wrote the N.T. Busted cold. I needed to make a quick buck.
Bruce M. Metzger wrote,
In evaluating the significance of these statistics...one should consider, by way of contrast, the number of manuscripts which preserve the text of the ancient classics. Homer's Iliad...is preserved by 457 papyri, 2 uncial manuscripts, and 188 minuscule manuscripts. Among the tragedians the witnesses to Euripides are the most abundant; his extant works are preserved in 54 papyri and 276 parchment manuscripts, almost all of the later dating from the Byzantine period...the time between the composition of the books of the New Testament and the earliest extant copies is relatively brief. Instead of the lapse of a millennium or more, as is the case of not a few classical authors, several papyrus manuscripts of portions of the New Testament are extant which were copies within a century or so after the composition of the original documents
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 12:33:45
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
Gosh, I was under the impression you believe Christ was a Jewish Rabbi. Where oh where did you get that crazy notion?
Gary Habermas:
What is usually meant is that the New Testament has far more manuscript evidence from a far earlier period than other classical works. There are just under 6000 NT manuscripts, with copies of most of the NT dating from just 100 years or so after its writing. Classical sources almost always have fewer than 20 copies each and usually date from 700-1400 years after the composition of the work. In this regard, the classics are not as well attested. While this doesn't guarantee truthfulness, it means that it is much easier to reconstruct the New Testament text. Regarding genre, the Gospels are usually taken today to be examples of Roman biographies.
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/04/2020 12:44:34
If you think you provided an answer in the gibberish you've shared, go directly to jail. Don't pass Go!Get a mirror.
Post by: alancalverd on 28/04/2020 12:51:26
Quote
I was under the impression you believe Christ was a Jewish Rabbi.It says so in the bible. Who am I to doubt it? So he would have at least reading fluency in classical Hebrew. But I'm pretty sure he didn't write the NT (which deals with events after his death) and certainly not in Greek.
You keep missing the point.
Nobody seriously contests that there's a fair bit of Jewish history in the bible, along with poetry and ancient laws, many of which are replicated in modern statutes.
The point of contention is the latterday superstitions that attach to bits of it.
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 13:18:00
QuoteI was under the impression you believe Christ was a Jewish Rabbi.It says so in the bible. Who am I to doubt it? So he would have at least reading fluency in classical Hebrew. But I'm pretty sure he didn't write the NT (which deals with events after his death) and certainly not in Greek.
You keep missing the point.
Nobody seriously contests that there's a fair bit of Jewish history in the bible, along with poetry and ancient laws, many of which are replicated in modern statutes.
The point of contention is the latterday superstitions that attach to bits of it.
some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament,
Dr. Alan,
How many times have I asked you to identify where they got it wrong?
"...some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament,..." Dr. Alan
I got the point way back. You fail to understand that or is it part of your sprinting workouts?
"...he didn't write the NT (which deals with events after his death)" The N.T. deals with HIS birth to a virgin, His baptism, blowing the socks off religious leaders as a child, his years of ministry in which HE healed multitudes of folks and became a dire threat to the religious elites of His day, His fake trial, His murder, His forgiving pronouncement as blood poured out of His body as He suffocated on it, His resurrection and return to heaven from which He came among other events.
Not bad for a Jewish nobody who owned nothing, never authored anything, was penniless, had no political or military backing or agenda, never asked for a dime and loved everyone. HIS words are the foundation for Western Civilization. Oh yes, don't forget, HE said HE was GOD, He proved HE was GOD and HE lives today inside billions.
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 13:34:18
The point of contention is the latterday superstitions that attach to bits of it.
"The point of contention is the latterday superstitions that attach to bits of it."
Which are what, exactly? How do you know what is legitimate Jewish history, etc., and superstitions attached to it? How have you figured that out? If it was not written originally by Jews and not in Greek, why do you give any credibility to it?
Based on scientific analysis, how are my terms of endearment more offensive than the way you and your like-minded contributors depict my efforts?
Don't forget that you despise me for what I have done with the N.T.
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 13:51:42
There is general disdain for Duffy's bizarre assertions and interpretations of some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament, which have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
There is general disdain for Duffy's bizarre assertions and interpretations of some heavily curated and multiply retranslated aspects of the New Testament, which have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
I was simply pointing out that you lied, whether from ignorance or deliberate intent. I'm inclined to be generous: I think you are deluded, not evil. But you might try to moderate your language if you want any sympathy.
I lied? When? I said the original authors of the N.T. were Jewish men, not the men who subsequently translated the autographs and the manuscripts and I didn't say JESUS wrote any of it. His original disciples were almost all Jewish folks. They recorded what HE said, and made copies of the original collection of those accounts, and from there it has been translated into almost every language on earth by various people with various beliefs. Apparently, that is not an issue for you because you accept the N.T. has accurate information in it. You doubt all of it is accurate because you believe portions were fabricated by non-Jewish folks and they used Greek to write those parts?
I never lied.
Post by: alancalverd on 28/04/2020 14:02:19
If it was not written originally by Jews and not in Greek, why do you give any credibility to it?Too many negatives.
The credibility of a text is partly inherent (could such events have occurred?) and partly corroborative (is there independent evidence?). Doesn't matter what language it was written in, or by whom.
Quote
Eusebius [the author of the Codex Vaticanus] was baptized and ordained at Caesarea, where he was taught by the learned presbyter Pamphilus, to whom he was bound by ties of respect and affection and from whom he derived the name “Eusebius Pamphili” (the son or servant of Pamphilus). Pamphilus came to be persecuted by the Romans for his beliefs and died in martyrdom in 310.A Christian, not a Jew.
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 14:03:35
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
The autographs. The first recorded books and letters that are the N.T. in its original state, they were written mostly by Jewish men who were his first disciples and by Jewish disciples who wrote down what the initial disciples shared with them. It was primarily a Jewish movement at first. Of course it's been translated by others since then.
Post by: alancalverd on 28/04/2020 14:07:02
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/04/2020 14:07:47
I never lied.Yes you did.
Repeatedly, for example:
Combine this evidence with all the other evidence we have and there is no doubt JESUS is exactly WHO HE claimed to be to a scientific certainty.
Christ is blamed for practically every evil imaginableGot any evidence for that?
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 14:12:08
Pete explains it to them and "Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day." 3,000 Jewish visitors from all over the world became Christians that very day.
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 14:29:26
If it was not written originally by Jews and not in Greek, why do you give any credibility to it?Too many negatives.
The credibility of a text is partly inherent (could such events have occurred?) and partly corroborative (is there independent evidence?). Doesn't matter what language it was written in, or by whom.QuoteEusebius [the author of the Codex Vaticanus] was baptized and ordained at Caesarea, where he was taught by the learned presbyter Pamphilus, to whom he was bound by ties of respect and affection and from whom he derived the name “Eusebius Pamphili” (the son or servant of Pamphilus). Pamphilus came to be persecuted by the Romans for his beliefs and died in martyrdom in 310.A Christian, not a Jew.
He was called the author of that body of work, not the original documents.
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/04/2020 16:51:21
became Christians that very day.That's an interesting definition of "Christian".
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 21:19:46
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
Most scholars agree that the writers of the New Testament were Jewish (with the possible exception of Luke). "Most of the writers of the various parts were Jews, and the writings were designed for Jewish readers who had embraced the Christian faith. The authors drew more or less from contemporary Jewish ideas, ethics, legends, parables and sayings."
The New Testament writers were not rebellious radicals bent on destroying Judaism. They worshiped regularly in the Temple. They were well versed in the Jewish Scriptures as demonstrated by their numerous references to the prophecies and practices of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Paul the Apostle, also known as Saul of Tarsus
The most prolific New Testament writer, Paul, wrote almost half of the 27 New Testament books. His Jewish background is indisputable. He was a son of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin, and a Pharisee. The Jewish scholar Professor Samuel Sandmel of Hebrew Union College observes that Paul the Jew "was at home in the Bible and in the practice of expounding it; he shared the group-feeling of Jews, and he was, from his own standpoint, unreservedly loyal to Judaism."
Paul boasted that prior to becoming a believer in Yeshua (Jesus), he was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of his own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of his fathers. His familiarity with Jewish tradition, thought and theology remained an integral part of his preaching. He drew heavily from the Hebrew Bible, and the audiences to whom he preached were well acquainted with the Hebrew Scriptures.
Jewish scholar Alan F. Segal admits, "However much I may disagree with Paul, my reading accedes to the authenticity of Paul's conversion experience. Paul considered himself part of a new Jewish sect and hoped to convince both fellow Christians and Jews of his vision of redemption."
Paul's Jewishness is evident in the focus of his writing as well. This is true of all the New Testament writers. For if the book dealt only with gentile issues, it could hardly be regarded as Jewish.
Catherine Damato | 23 April 2018
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 21:23:39
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
The pages of the New Testament clearly follow the framework of Judaism. The first four books, the gospels, addressed a Jewish audience. They echoed the pattern of historical narratives interspersed with instruction found in the Torah. "The controversies between Jesus and the Scribes/Pharisees have no referent outside the community of Israel; Jesus' preaching of the coming kingdom could have had meaning only for Jews; the synagogues in which Jesus reads from the prophets, heals the sick, and forgives sins are Jewish houses of worship for believing Jews and not unconverted gentiles.…"7 The Jewish festivals that are celebrated throughout the pages of the New Testament were not feasts of interest to the gentiles but were part of the daily life of the Jewish people.
The four gospel accounts contain numerous references to the Hebrew Scriptures, references that deal with the messianic theme. This is clearly seen in the narration of the birth of Yeshua. His conception was prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 and referred to in Matthew: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us' " (1:23).
Damato
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 21:25:34
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
The pages of the New Testament clearly follow the framework of Judaism. The first four books, the gospels, addressed a Jewish audience. They echoed the pattern of historical narratives interspersed with instruction found in the Torah. "The controversies between Jesus and the Scribes/Pharisees have no referent outside the community of Israel; Jesus' preaching of the coming kingdom could have had meaning only for Jews; the synagogues in which Jesus reads from the prophets, heals the sick, and forgives sins are Jewish houses of worship for believing Jews and not unconverted gentiles.…"7 The Jewish festivals that are celebrated throughout the pages of the New Testament were not feasts of interest to the gentiles but were part of the daily life of the Jewish people.
The four gospel accounts contain numerous references to the Hebrew Scriptures, references that deal with the messianic theme. This is clearly seen in the narration of the birth of Yeshua. His conception was prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 and referred to in Matthew: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us' " (1:23).
Damato
His birth in Bethlehem was foretold by the prophet Micah in chapter 5, verse 2, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times," and quoted in Matthew 2:6.
Matthew also relies heavily on Hebrew Scriptures. In the second chapter of his narrative, he relates the flight into Egypt of Joseph and Mary (Miriam) and the slaughter of the innocents by Herod. Harking back to the law of the Nazarite in Numbers 6:1-21, Matthew concludes this story with Joseph's return to Israel to settle in Nazareth, "And he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, 'He will be called a Nazarene' " (Matthew 2:23). Damato
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 21:27:01
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
The pages of the New Testament clearly follow the framework of Judaism. The first four books, the gospels, addressed a Jewish audience. They echoed the pattern of historical narratives interspersed with instruction found in the Torah. "The controversies between Jesus and the Scribes/Pharisees have no referent outside the community of Israel; Jesus' preaching of the coming kingdom could have had meaning only for Jews; the synagogues in which Jesus reads from the prophets, heals the sick, and forgives sins are Jewish houses of worship for believing Jews and not unconverted gentiles.…"7 The Jewish festivals that are celebrated throughout the pages of the New Testament were not feasts of interest to the gentiles but were part of the daily life of the Jewish people.
The four gospel accounts contain numerous references to the Hebrew Scriptures, references that deal with the messianic theme. This is clearly seen in the narration of the birth of Yeshua. His conception was prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 and referred to in Matthew: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us' " (1:23).
Damato
His birth in Bethlehem was foretold by the prophet Micah in chapter 5, verse 2, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times," and quoted in Matthew 2:6.
Matthew also relies heavily on Hebrew Scriptures. In the second chapter of his narrative, he relates the flight into Egypt of Joseph and Mary (Miriam) and the slaughter of the innocents by Herod. Harking back to the law of the Nazarite in Numbers 6:1-21, Matthew concludes this story with Joseph's return to Israel to settle in Nazareth, "And he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, 'He will be called a Nazarene' " (Matthew 2:23). Damato
This appeal to fulfilled prophecy continues with Mark, who prefaces his gospel account with, "It is written in Isaiah the Prophet." He cites Isaiah, "A voice of one calling: In the desert prepare the way for the Lord" (40:3), and Malachi, "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me" (3:1).
"It is written" occurs time and again in the pages that follow as the New Testament writers buttress their arguments with the Hebrew Scriptures-the Law, the prophets and the writings. The two testaments fit together; one does not supersede the other. "The New Testament is regarded by Christians as the fulfillment of the prophecies and the teachings contained in the Old."8
In Acts 2:14-28, Peter, known as "the apostle to the Jewish people," began his ministry with a lengthy quotation from the Hebrew prophet Joel. He then affirmed that Yeshua was the Messiah, citing Psalm 16:10, "Because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will you allow your Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27). His hearers, with the events of the crucifixion still fresh in their memory, were "cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?' "(Acts 2:37). Damato
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 21:34:43
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
Jewish scholar David Flusser observes how the New Testament records Jewish life in the Hellenistic Diaspora. But the writings not only give us a look into Jewish customs, thinking and beliefs; they also provide us with clues concerning the languages spoken at that time.
"The spoken languages among the Jews of that period were Hebrew, Aramaic, and to an extent Greek. Until recently, it was believed by numerous scholars that the language spoken by Jesus' disciples was Aramaic.…But during that period Hebrew was both the daily language and the language of study.…This question of the spoken language is especially important for understanding the doctrines of Jesus. There are sayings of Jesus which can be rendered both into Hebrew and Aramaic; but there are some which can only be rendered into Hebrew, and none of them can be rendered only into Aramaic. One can thus demonstrate the Hebrew origins of the Gospels by retranslating them into Hebrew."
The New Testament was written by Jews, focuses on issues of interest to Jews and was strongly influenced by the Hebrew language. same
Post by: duffyd on 28/04/2020 21:38:15
There are only a handful, approx 45 manuscripts that support the text that underlines the modern versions and this text is itself primarily based on just 2, Codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew.
Jewish scholar David Flusser observes how the New Testament records Jewish life in the Hellenistic Diaspora. But the writings not only give us a look into Jewish customs, thinking and beliefs; they also provide us with clues concerning the languages spoken at that time.
"The spoken languages among the Jews of that period were Hebrew, Aramaic, and to an extent Greek. Until recently, it was believed by numerous scholars that the language spoken by Jesus' disciples was Aramaic.…But during that period Hebrew was both the daily language and the language of study.…This question of the spoken language is especially important for understanding the doctrines of Jesus. There are sayings of Jesus which can be rendered both into Hebrew and Aramaic; but there are some which can only be rendered into Hebrew, and none of them can be rendered only into Aramaic. One can thus demonstrate the Hebrew origins of the Gospels by retranslating them into Hebrew."
The New Testament was written by Jews, focuses on issues of interest to Jews and was strongly influenced by the Hebrew language. Damato
For the most part, the New Testament depicts Jews dealing with other Jews on questions of importance to the Jewish people. Alan Segal says, "Study of the New Testament, undeniably a first-century source, has proven to be quite useful for validating mishnaic recollections of first-century Jewish life, but such comparisons are in their infancy. The New Testament is also better evidence for Hellenistic Judaism than is the Mishnah for first-century rabbinism."
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus the Jew tells his followers, "So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles run after all these things." Yeshua goes on to encourage his followers to "seek first [God's] kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." The heavenly kingdom and God's righteousness were familiar concepts to Yeshua's Jewish followers.
Likewise, when Jesus sent out his disciples, he told them, "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."
The Book of Acts tells how Stephen, the first Jesus-believing Jewish martyr, stood before his accusers and cited the history of his people. This Jewish man spoke before a Jewish crowd, about their Jewish ancestors. And, not unlike many of the Jewish prophets of old, Stephen was dragged out of the city and stoned.
The book of Hebrews begins with: "In the past God spoke to our fathers through the prophets.…" The writer then refers to passage upon passage from the Hebrew Scriptures.
Hebrews 11 has been called "The Roll Call of Faith." It honors Abel, Enoch and Noah for their faith and goes on to commend the patriarchs, Moses and Joshua, as well as Rahab. It then follows with the heroes Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah and concludes by touching on the many unnamed heroes in Israel's history. Verse 34 and following speak of those who "quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies." The unnamed martyrs, those who were tortured, mocked, scourged and who suffered affliction and torment for the sake of the God in whom they believed are all cited. These men and women gave themselves as a part of Israel's bloody legacy-Jewish martyrs, dying in the name of the God of their Jewish ancestors.
The whole chapter is a summary of Jewish history, not Babylonian, not Egyptian, not Roman history. The book of Hebrews lives up to its name. It was written by a Hebrew to persons of Hebrew descent who were well acquainted with their Scriptures.
Other New Testament writers concern themselves with Israel and with Jewish matters. James addressed "the twelve tribes scattered among the nations" (James 1:1). Peter addressed "God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered.…" (1 Peter 1:1).
Jude, in his brief letter, speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah, Michael the archangel, Moses, Cain, Balaam and Korah. These references would be baffling to anyone lacking knowledge of the Torah.
In the last book of the New Testament, Revelation, we see God's continual care for his people Israel. It is written that the tribes of Israel will one day be revived and identified (Revelation 7) and that a glorious New Jerusalem will have twelve gates inscribed with the names of the tribes of Israel (21:9-27). Damato
BTW, as you may not know,
David Flusser (Hebrew: דוד פלוסר; born 1917; died 2000) was an Israeli professor of Early Christianity and Judaism of the Second Temple Period at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. wiki
Post by: duffyd on 29/04/2020 13:13:29
Post by: utahjazzfan on 29/04/2020 13:29:49
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/04/2020 13:34:16
I responded to Al's insistence that JESUS never referred to Himself as GOD,Yes, you did.
Do you now plan to do something that's related to the topic of the thread?
Post by: duffyd on 29/04/2020 14:22:48
My opinion, every person should choose respect it or no. It's always up to you and nobody can tell what to do. I don't understand religious people but anyway I appreciate they can have every opinion they want
Profound statement. Profound!
Do you know why they murdered Jesus? He never broke any laws, ever, and HE wasn't accused of breaking any laws when they beat Him half to death before they pounded sharp steel through His body, pinning Him up above the dirt for His mom to watch Him in agony, even as HE watched her in agony. What a bloody horror.
Oh no! He was murdered in cold blood without a fair trial because of what HE said.
Post by: duffyd on 29/04/2020 14:43:40
Testing GOD is forbidden? “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
If HE isn't challenging people to test HIM, what was HE doing? HE makes a guarantee to everyone, too.
In the Greek, the words ask, seek and knock are in the continuous present tense. Keep asking, keep seeking...
Post by: alancalverd on 29/04/2020 14:55:45
He was called the author of that body of work, not the original documents.So you agree with me. Thank you.
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/04/2020 15:28:14
So called witches were killed in much the same way.My opinion, every person should choose respect it or no. It's always up to you and nobody can tell what to do. I don't understand religious people but anyway I appreciate they can have every opinion they want
Profound statement. Profound!
Do you know why they murdered Jesus? He never broke any laws, ever, and HE wasn't accused of breaking any laws when they beat Him half to death before they pounded sharp steel through His body, pinning Him up above the dirt for His mom to watch Him in in agony.
Oh no! He was murdered in cold blood without a fair trial because of what HE said.
Also because of what He said.
People kept slaves because of what He said.
People were killed for their sexuality because of what He said.
Perhaps the Romans should have killed him earlier (and more thoroughly)
Post by: alancalverd on 29/04/2020 16:38:33
Quote
There is nothing recorded in the four Gospels where Jesus specifically mentions homosexuality the way Paul did in 1 Cor. 6:9.
Likewise classical Hebrew "eved" (and presumably Aramaic) doesn't distinguish between slave, servant and indentured worker, but the OT sets down rules for the proper treatment of all employees according to time-limited contract.
Which supports my point that the real problem isn't Christ, but Christians.
Post by: duffyd on 29/04/2020 16:48:41
He was called the author of that body of work, not the original documents.So you agree with me. Thank you.
Ooops! I did it again! Without trying! I hate to gloat, but utilizing no effort whatsoever, I won the batting crown, AGAIN. 1,000 percent. Thanks Al. Honestly? I couldn't have done it without ya. Not only hitting everything, but blasting homeruns at every at bat. I do admit, I thought I would face at least a little opposition, but, Al not only bombed, he forfeited half way though.
Most of all what time, (history), has shown us is simply this: no rational argument makes a dent in the apologetics of Christianity. Many, many fine, educated, brilliant teams of combatants have invested all their energy, time and resources into defeating HIS claims. Watching Him die slowly in terrible agony once upon a time, they thought they had done it. They were delighted, thrilled, ecstatic, believing they had rid the world of HIM once and for all. Little did they know. Little did they know! Death couldn't stop HIM. HE defeated death--and still does every day.
Post by: duffyd on 29/04/2020 16:55:41
My opinion, every person should choose respect it or no. It's always up to you and nobody can tell what to do. I don't understand religious people but anyway I appreciate they can have every opinion they want
You don't understand religious people? You ain't the only one. I have met quite a few boobs who play at this thing and I'm always baffled why they bother. If you don't intend to follow Him with all your heart, why pretend? Why put on a show? Go out and get it on for Pete's sake.
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/04/2020 17:00:40
Ooops! I did it again! Without trying! I hate to gloat, but utilizing no effort whatsoever, I won the batting crown, AGAIN. 1,000 percent. Thanks Al. Honestly? I couldn't have done it without ya. Not only hitting everything, but blasting homeruns at every at bat. I do admit, I thought I would face at least a little opposition, but, Al not only bombed, he forfeited half way though.What delusion is that about?
Watching Him die slowly in terrible agony once upon a time, they thought they had done it.Which "they" do you mean?
Post by: duffyd on 29/04/2020 17:19:01
He was called the author of that body of work, not the original documents.So you agree with me. Thank you.
"Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven residing in Jerusalem..." Time out. What was that? Which kind of Jew?
Post by: duffyd on 29/04/2020 22:05:48
He was called the author of that body of work, not the original documents.So you agree with me. Thank you.
"Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven residing in Jerusalem..." Time out. What was that? Which kind of Jew?
You got it Al. They were devout. They were the real deal and they were overwhelmed by the evidence that they witnessed first hand. Unlearned people were speaking in the very languages they use in the various nations where they lived.
It is interesting to read how Paul ran into Hebrew Christians during his missionary journeys where he had not previously visited and the N.T. hadn't been completed.
It spread like a recipe for my mother's Yorkshire Pudding. HE preached to multiple thousands and healed folks of every disease and malady, raising the dead, returning healthy limbs and eyesight. Who wouldn't want to know the guy and tell everyone about HIM? He was a phenome extraordinaire. Talk about rock stars ( I forgot--Jesus Christ Superstar) Devout, responsible, intelligent Jewish people left everything, immediately, to travel by His side. Even King Herod knew of HIM and wanted the opportunity to meet HIM. Not too many kings hear about, let alone want to meet, and have some silly little nutcase, perform for them.
A subtle assumption (until you think about it) is made that nothing happened throughout that ancient region of the world until we find it written about in the N.T. People were starving for the streams of living water just as much then, maybe more, than we do today. Life was tough back in the day.
As I said, GOD still pours out HIS gifts upon HIS children including the ability to speak in an unknown language. Want proof?
The more thoroughly they are defeated in a debate, the more bitterness one observes erupting out of folks who often say they have no ill will for HIM.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 29/04/2020 22:10:05
C is as fast as anything can travel through spacetimes fabric at varying gravity densities etc, without being energy+1.BTW, does entanglement disprove C is the fastest anything can go?
It's more correct to say that c is as fast as information can go. Quantum entanglement doesn't transfer information.
Edit:
Dear god this thread still going.
Post by: Colin2B on 29/04/2020 23:02:15
C is as fast as anything can travel through spacetimes fabric at varying gravity densities etc, without being energy+1.Can we at least pretend that this thread has anything to do with science.
BTW, does entanglement disprove C is the fastest anything can go?No, it just proves you don’t understand entanglement. Don’t worry, you are not alone in this.
Post by: alancalverd on 29/04/2020 23:04:33
I accept the bible for what it is - a collection of ancient texts that has been selected, edited and translated over thousands of years and mostly deals with the history, laws and poetry of my tribe.
Other people have all sorts of bizarre beliefs related to its content, some of which have led to the inexcusable maltreatment of others.
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/04/2020 23:17:49
The more thoroughly they are defeated in a debate, the more bitterness one observes erupting out of folks who often say they have no ill will for HIM.Are you sure?
You have utterly failed to win any debate on the actual topic.
Yet I don't see an "eruption of bitterness", Just petty minded ignorance and bad pop psychology.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 00:53:16
C is as fast as anything can travel through spacetimes fabric at varying gravity densities etc, without being energy+1.BTW, does entanglement disprove C is the fastest anything can go?
It's more correct to say that c is as fast as information can go. Quantum entanglement doesn't transfer information.
Edit:
Dear god this thread still going.
Is not.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 01:31:20
He was called the author of that body of work, not the original documents.So you agree with me. Thank you.
"Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven residing in Jerusalem..." Time out. What was that? Which kind of Jew?
You got it Al. They were devout. They were the real deal and they were overwhelmed by the evidence that they witnessed first hand. Unlearned people were speaking in the very languages they used in the various nations where they lived.
It is interesting to read how Paul ran into Hebrew Christians during his missionary journeys where he had not previously visited and the N.T. hadn't been completed.
It spread like a recipe for my mother's Yorkshire Pudding. HE preached to multiple thousands and healed folks of every disease and malady, raising the dead, returning healthy limbs and eyesight. Who wouldn't want to know the guy and tell everyone about HIM? He was a phenome extraordinaire. Talk about rock stars ( I forgot--Jesus Christ Superstar) Devout, responsible, intelligent Jewish people left everything, immediately, to travel by His side. Even King Herod knew of HIM and wanted the opportunity to meet HIM. Not too many kings hear about, let alone want to meet, and have some silly little nutcase, perform for them.
A subtle assumption (until you think about it) is made that nothing happened throughout that ancient region of the world until we find it written about in the N.T. People were starving for the streams of living water just as much then, maybe more, than we do today. Life was tough back in the day.
As I said, GOD still pours out HIS gifts upon HIS children including the ability to speak in an unknown language. Want proof?
The more thoroughly they are defeated in a debate, the more bitterness one observes erupting out of folks who often say they have no ill will for HIM.
And, therein lies the rub. See, the problem is, HE was GOD. Some just can't get it. They can't even begin to think about a Man being GOD, but that is exactly Who HE was. And that is a huge stumbling block for them. The mere concept, the very idea of GOD/MAN doesn't register. That alone disrupts rational thinking. No one is GOD/MAN. It isn't possible. You can't be GOD and man in one human being and from that critical error in thinking, everything else, by default of sorts, must be totally absurd.
But, we are not discussing an unusually gifted man. He was not a great guy living a virtuous life. He was not some special, charismatic, highly effective teacher/preacher. He was not a role model or super philosopher or mystical shaman or guru or witch doctor. He was not imaginary, a figment of imagination, a fictional super hero or some wild eyed, half crazed loony tune. He wasn't like anyone else.
The deal is HE was GOD ALMIGHTY. HE visited planet earth arriving as a totally helpless, crying baby. You cannot be GOD and be a baby, but HE was.
Science can't explain many things. We recognize that and still pursue new breakthroughs. We accept that science hasn't released all her secrets yet, but we continue searching for more answers through it.
GOD decided HE doesn't have to clue me in on everything. HE can be GOD and a new born. HE can die and be immortal. HE can rise from the dead in three days and hang with the repentant crucified cat that very day in paradise.
But, we do need to know certain things if we are to be convinced, and HIS LOVE for me was so huge, so overwhelming, so pure and tender and powerful and life transforming, there wasn't any room left for doubt. HE's my DAD, the ONE I longed for all my life and gave up hope I'd fine. HIS sheer massiveness, HIS strength and knowledge and Presence wiped away every tear, every objection, all my pain in a split second. HE was there inside my gut and all around me and I feared I'd gone out of my mind. I looked people who knew me squarely in the eye and asked in all seriousness, "Have I gone nuts?"
"No, not at all. You seem happier, more together than ever. All the good in you has come out."
Francis Collins said one of the reasons he became convinced the bible was legit was through the love and kindness shown to him by Christians who were deathly ill as he came across them working in hospitals. LOVE is greater than science. Science is great, but it bows before HIM.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 10:39:37
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 10:40:38
The deal is HE was GOD ALMIGHTY.Prove it.
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 10:41:30
Why would a scientist accept the bible? Why not?Because there's no supporting evidence, and it contradicts itself hundreds of times.
It also doesn't actually help if science accepts it.
The Bible supports slavery, torture and bigotry.
Wouldn't it be better if nobody accepted it?
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 10:58:44
The gift of languages which confounded the people in ACTS 2 is given today.
Testing GOD is forbidden? “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
If HE wasn't challenging people to test HIM, what was HE doing? HE makes a guarantee to everyone, to you, too.
In the Greek, the words ask, seek and knock are in the continuous present tense. Keep asking, keep seeking...
It is most sad to engage scientists in debate only to find they too refuse the scientific method which is widely available, to see if HE exists . No. That's not the correct word, available. GOD pleads with us, with everyone to test HIM. The scientific method is in fact one superb way to prove beyond a doubt that HE IS. Ask Him. Keep asking HIM. Keep seeking HIM. Keep knock, knock, knocking on heaven's door just as Dylan did. That's how you discover of all those with eyes and all those with ears, HE is the only ONE who can reduce us to tears.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 11:31:01
Interesting.QuoteThere is nothing recorded in the four Gospels where Jesus specifically mentions homosexuality the way Paul did in 1 Cor. 6:9.
Likewise classical Hebrew "eved" (and presumably Aramaic) doesn't distinguish between slave, servant and indentured worker, but the OT sets down rules for the proper treatment of all employees according to time-limited contract.
Which supports my point that the real problem isn't Christ, but Christians.
You are a bit fickled there Old Al, aren't you?
"Both written in Greek. By Jews? I think not. Our holy texts are written in Hebrew." Big Al.
"the real problem isn't Christ, but Christians."
Which is it? Do you reject Christ for the reasons you gave or not? You have to decide, not for me. I don't know you and never will. It seems logical that you can't have HIM both ways. Was HE the Messiah or not and upon what information do you form your opinion? We started with these questions and it was demonstrated that the accounts we have of HIM from ancient, preserved documents and the recorded real life experiences of multiple millions beginning with those who first encountered HIM to this moment, that HE said HE was GOD and HE proved HE was GOD and HE will prove it today if you ask HIM to.
Post by: Colin2B on 30/04/2020 11:35:15
It is most sad to engage scientists in debate only to find they too refuse the scientific method which is widely available,It would help if you would explain exactly which scientific method you think would apply, what experiment, what quantitive predictions. Remember, personal testimonials after the fact are not scientific method.
Post by: alancalverd on 30/04/2020 11:39:06
HE's my DAD, the ONE I longed for all my life and gave up hope I'd fine.This really belongs in the "God" thread, but it's the key to monotheistic faith.
Most people spend their childhood in an environment where, whatever happens during the day, a big man with a beard (or at least a 5 o'clock shadow) arrives in the evening and dishes out justice, forgiveness, pizza, etc. Some of us grow up and assume all the responsibilities of a dad (or mum), including the liability for failure. Others, who lack the guts to be a proper adult, get on their knees and hope that there's another big man with a beard who will put things right in this life or the next, if you ask nicely. And some make a living by embellishing and selling that ridiculous idea, for which there is no actual evidence.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 11:48:25
HE's my DAD, the ONE I longed for all my life and gave up hope I'd fine.This really belongs in the "God" thread, but it's the key to monotheistic faith.
Most people spend their childhood in an environment where, whatever happens during the day, a big man with a beard (or at least a 5 o'clock shadow) arrives in the evening and dishes out justice, forgiveness, pizza, etc. Some of us grow up and assume all the responsibilities of a dad (or mum), including the liability for failure. Others, who lack the guts to be a proper adult, get on their knees and hope that there's another big man with a beard who will put things right in this life or the next, if you ask nicely. And some make a living by embellishing and selling that ridiculous idea, for which there is no actual evidence.
I'll move this discussion to Houston if necessary. Tell me where and I'll abide.
You see Old Al, going in circles doesn't work. HE is Christ, as you say. It makes no difference why some people say they believe in HIM or what they do or don't do in His Name. Has nothing to do with you. But, Christ has everything to do with you.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 11:50:38
Read over what I've written because I have stated it many times.It is most sad to engage scientists in debate only to find they too refuse the scientific method which is widely available,It would help if you would explain exactly which scientific method you think would apply, what experiment, what quantitive predictions. Remember, personal testimonials after the fact are not scientific method.
Janis Joplin had everything but love.
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 11:56:06
If HE isn't challenging people to test HIM, what was HE doing?Well, He was doing the exact opposite of testing.
A test is discriminating.
He was saying He would let anyone in.
Since you don't know what testing actually means it's absurd for you to say things like
It is most sad to engage scientists in debate only to find they too refuse the scientific method which is widely available, to see if HE exists .
You don't understand that method.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 12:01:16
HE's my DAD, the ONE I longed for all my life and gave up hope I'd fine.This really belongs in the "God" thread, but it's the key to monotheistic faith.
Most people spend their childhood in an environment where, whatever happens during the day, a big man with a beard (or at least a 5 o'clock shadow) arrives in the evening and dishes out justice, forgiveness, pizza, etc. Some of us grow up and assume all the responsibilities of a dad (or mum), including the liability for failure. Others, who lack the guts to be a proper adult, get on their knees and hope that there's another big man with a beard who will put things right in this life or the next, if you ask nicely. And some make a living by embellishing and selling that ridiculous idea, for which there is no actual evidence.
Atheism Is Inconsistent with the Scientific Method, Prizewinning Physicist Says
In conversation, the 2019 Templeton Prize winner does not pull punches on the limits of science, the value of humility and the irrationality of nonbelief.
Marcelo Gleiser, a 60-year-old Brazil-born theoretical physicist at Dartmouth College and prolific science popularizer, has won this year’s Templeton Prize. Valued at just under $1.5 million, the award from the John Templeton Foundation annually recognizes an individual “who has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life’s spiritual dimension.”
.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 12:06:11
I can't speak for all scientists, but I think I've answered the question from my point of view.
I accept the bible for what it is - a collection of ancient texts that has been selected, edited and translated over thousands of years and mostly deals with the history, laws and poetry of my tribe.
Other people have all sorts of bizarre beliefs related to its content, some of which have led to the inexcusable maltreatment of others.
Does your bible include the N.T.?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 12:08:17
the 2019 Templeton Prize winnerSo, that's a prize from a fund created by an elder of the presbyterian church. It's a prize for affirming that there's a God, And the Winner says "there's a God".
Was that meant to be in some way informative?
Sh1t! if you offer me $1.5 million, maybe I will say there's a God.
It doesn't make it true.
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 12:10:31
Does your bible include the N.T.?I presume it does.
In which case it includes Matthew 5:18 about all the old laws- i.e. the OT, staying in force until all things have come to pass.
So, it reaffirms the stuff about slavery, killing witches , and so on.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 13:00:13
It is most sad to engage scientists in debate only to find they too refuse the scientific method which is widely available,It would help if you would explain exactly which scientific method you think would apply, what experiment, what quantitive predictions. Remember, personal testimonials after the fact are not scientific method.
This should help.
MARCH 25, 2016
Can a scientist believe in the resurrection? Three hypotheses.
IAN HUTCHINSON
MIT
Hypothesis one:…
I’m a professor of nuclear science and engineering at MIT, and I believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. So do dozens of my colleagues. How can this be?
Hypothesis one: We’re not talking about a literal resurrection. Perhaps it is just an inspiring myth that served to justify the propagation of Jesus’ exalted ethical teachings. A literal resurrection contradicts the known laws of nature. Maybe scientists can celebrate the idea of Jesus’s spirit living on, while his body remained in the grave.
But the first disciples attested to a physical resurrection. How could an untruth logically support high moral character? How could it have sustained the apostles through the extremes of persecution they experienced founding Christianity? And is celebrating a myth consistent with scientific integrity?
Hypothesis two: We really believe in the bodily resurrection of the first century Jew known as Jesus of Nazareth. My Christian colleagues at MIT – and millions of other scientists worldwide – somehow think that a literal miracle like the resurrection of Jesus is possible. And we are following a long tradition. The founders of the scientific revolution and many of the greatest scientists of the intervening centuries were serious Christian believers. For Robert Boyle (of the ideal gas law, co-founder in 1660 of the Royal Society) the resurrection was a fact. For James Clerk Maxwell (whose Maxwell equations of 1862 govern electromagnetism) a deep philosophical analysis undergirded his belief in the resurrection. And for William Phillips (Nobel prize-winner in 1997 for methods to trap atoms with laser light) the resurrection is not discredited by science.
To explain how a scientist can be a Christian is actually quite simple. Science cannot and does not disprove the resurrection. Natural science describes the normal reproducible working of the world of nature. Indeed, the key meaning of “nature”, as Boyle emphasized, is “the normal course of events.” Miracles like the resurrection are inherently abnormal. It does not take modern science to tell us that humans don’t rise from the dead. People knew that perfectly well in the first century; just as they knew that the blind from birth don’t as adults regain their sight, or water doesn’t instantly turn into wine.
Maybe science has made the world seem more comprehensible – although in some respects it seems more wonderful and mysterious. Maybe superstition was more widespread in the first century than it is today – although the dreams of today’s sports fans and the widespread interest in the astrology pages sometimes make me wonder. Maybe people were more open then to the possibility of miracles than we are today. Still, the fact that the resurrection was impossible in the normal course of events was as obvious in the first century as it is for us. Indeed that is why it was seen as a great demonstration of God’s power.
Today’s widespread materialist view that events contrary to the laws of science just can’t happen is a metaphysical doctrine, not a scientific fact. What’s more, the doctrine that the laws of nature are “inviolable” is not necessary for science to function. Science offers natural explanations of natural events. It has no power or need to assert that only natural events happen.
Contrary to increasingly popular opinion, science is not our only means for accessing truth. In the case of Jesus’ resurrection, we must consider the historical evidence, and the historical evidence for the resurrection is as good as for almost any event of ancient history. The extraordinary character of the event, and its significance, provide a unique context, and ancient history is necessarily hard to establish. But a bare presumption that science has shown the resurrection to be impossible is an intellectual cop-out. Science shows no such thing.
Hypothesis 3: I was brainwashed as a child. If you’ve read this far and you are still wondering how an MIT professor could seriously believe in the resurrection, you might guess I was brainwashed to believe it as a child. But no, I did not grow up in a home where I was taught to believe in the resurrection. I came to faith in Jesus when I was an undergraduate at Cambridge University and was baptized in the chapel of Kings College on my 20th birthday. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are as compelling to me now as then.
* Professor, do not forget to acknowledge the value inherent in the proclamations of hundreds and hundreds of millions who found in HIM the GOD of Abe, Isaac, Jake, Dave,
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 13:10:44
“The question of truth is as central to [religion’s] concern as it is in science. Religious belief can guide one in life or strengthen one at the approach of death, but unless it is actually true it can do neither of these things and so would amount to no more than an illusory exercise in comforting fantasy.”
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 13:26:55
Remember, personal testimonials after the fact are not scientific method.
I’m a professor of nuclear science and engineering at MIT, and I believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.
Did you not understand that a comment from a professor is a personal testimonial, and thus not actually scientific evidence?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 13:27:48
The question of truth is as central to [religion’s] concern as it is in science.And since the bible contradicts itself, it can not be true.
So we can't use it as reliable evidence.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 13:30:47
“For the most part, I see the relationship between science and the Christian faith as not one of antagonism but one of mutual contribution,” VanderWeele said. “Science has given us tremendous insight into our world and how it works. It’s made clear the incredible order that’s manifest in Creation. It’s given us a better understanding of God’s work in the world.”
VanderWeele gently prods his unbelieving colleagues to consider the historical evidence of the empty tomb and the otherwise-inexplicable surge of courage in the disciples after they had seen Jesus resurrected.
“There are interesting historical arguments that provide some evidence for the resurrection,” VanderWeele said. “They are potent arguments worth considering that point you in the direction of Christianity.”
VanderWeele holds degrees in mathematics, philosophy, theology, finance and biostatics from Oxford University, the Pennsylvania University and Harvard. How does anyone get so many degrees in one lifetime? But it’s his math degree that has framed his life more than the others.
“Science gives us considerable insight into the world and how it works. The order in math is quite astounding,” he said. “For me it points to the beauty of God’s creation. It points to, as far as I can see, some Designer. Why do we find the complexity in all forms of life? It’s very difficult for me to look at our world and the discoveries in science and not to see a Designer behind it.”
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 14:26:05
Remember, personal testimonials after the fact are not scientific method.Even if they are from a man called Tyler VanderWeele.
rocked the secular worldJust not true.
I never even heard of him.
a study that showed churchgoers live longer than people who eschew the pew.That's probably also true of gyms, but it doesn't mean that Mr Motivator is God.
Why do you post this silly stuff?
Don't you realise it makes you look dumb?
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 17:27:28
BTW, weren't you in one of my classes I taught at Harvard? LOL“There are interesting historical arguments that provide some evidence for the resurrection,” VanderWeele said. “They are potent arguments worth considering that point you in the direction of Christianity.”
Dr. VW, I used to like you. I really did. I figured you were a pretty cool head.
That's all changed. When I read your comments about 35 times, I realized what happened to my initial good impression. To wit,
“There are interesting historical arguments that provide some evidence for the resurrection,” VanderWeele said. “They are potent arguments worth considering that point you in the direction of Christianity.” Pardon me, but do you have to be so tactful? Holy McMoly. Great job. Wow. Excellent phraseology. Not that I'm envious or anything.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 17:44:10
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 17:50:40
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 18:06:04
Using scientifically developed empirical data, scientists cite the advantages to being a follower of Christ.Except that's not what they found.
https://time.com/5159848/do-religious-people-live-longer/
"worshippers were 55% less likely to die during the up to 18-year follow-up period than people who didn’t frequent the temple, church or mosque."
So, what happens is scientists do some work, and religious bigots lie about it.
Why do you do that?
Why bear false witness about what the science says?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 18:08:53
Notice the level of education and intelligence HIS disciples possess.Yes, let's have a look at that.
It turns out that more intelligent people are less religious.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23921675
The corned beef is on your side.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 19:43:31
Using scientifically developed empirical data, scientists cite the advantages to being a follower of Christ.
Citing a world renown bible scholar reveals just how wrong he is:
"These ‘antifamily’ traditions are too widely attested in our sources to be ignored (they are found in Mark, Q, and Thomas, for example), and show that Jesus did not support what we today might think of as family values." Ehrman
Bart, when Jesus said His disciples cannot follow Him unless they hate their mothers and fathers, He was not suggesting that we actually hate our parents or family members or anyone else. He was emphasizing that our love for GOD needs to be more important to us than anything or anyone else. It is frightening to realize how far removed from proper biblical interpretation he is.
Post by: duffyd on 30/04/2020 19:50:30
Using scientifically developed empirical data, scientists cite the advantages to being a follower of Christ.
Citing a world renown bible scholar reveals just how wrong he is:
"These ‘antifamily’ traditions are too widely attested in our sources to be ignored (they are found in Mark, Q, and Thomas, for example), and show that Jesus did not support what we today might think of as family values." Ehrman
Bart, when Jesus said His disciples cannot follow Him unless they hate their mothers and fathers, He was not suggesting that we actually hate our parents or family members or anyone else. He was emphasizing that our love for GOD needs to be more important to us than anything or anyone else. It is frightening to realize how far removed from proper biblical interpretation he is.
“For me, at the time, it felt like an enormous relief, a lifting of burden, a sense of connecting with the universe in a way I never had before. Very powerful!”
“It makes sense that Jesus mattered to me as a late teenager, when I had a born-again experience and became a conservative evangelical."
“At that point Jesus became not only my Lord and Savior, but also my best friend and closest ally.”
“Jesus was my model of self-giving love…”
Bart Ehrman
Who moved?
In your book you weren't in your late teens when Jesus became your best friend and instilled in you how Love was everything and He opened your eyes to a new relationship with the universe that was so powerful you've been unable to let go of all that He meant to you. In your late teens you were enrolled at Moody and Wheaten memorizing entire books of the bible you loved so well.
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 20:06:20
Let us know who wins.
Post by: Colin2B on 30/04/2020 23:46:19
This should help.Unfortunately, no.
Nothing you have provided is scientific evidence.
In a court of law if you produced 5 witnesses saying a car was red and you opponent had one witness saying green, it is likely the judge would find in your favour. However, that would not be scientific evidence that the car really was red.
Many theologians emphasize religion’s empirical foundations, agreeing with the physicist and Anglican priest John Polkinghorne:I remember Polkinghorne and have attended some of his lectures. What is he referring to in the quote? If he is saying that religious belief is real and can guide one in life etc, then I agree with him. However, it is not in itself proof of the existence of a god.
“The question of truth is as central to [religion’s] concern as it is in science. Religious belief can guide one in life or strengthen one at the approach of death, but unless it is actually true it can do neither of these things and so would amount to no more than an illusory exercise in comforting fantasy.”
We know that belief can play a significant part in people's recovery from illness and placebos are a well known phenomenon, but you wouldn’t claim a placebo is a drug.
Tyler VanderWeele, a professor of epidemiology at Harvard School of Public Health, rocked the secular world when he published in May of 2016 a study that showed churchgoers live longer than people who eschew the pew.Hardly rocked anything. This has been known for quite some time prior to 2016.
A previous study in 1999 by Rogers, Hummer and Ellison, looked into this and even drew on even earlier studies.
However, nothing in that study, nor the comments made by Tyler VanderWeele are scientific evidence of the existence of a god.
There are many things which correlate with longevity; eg owning a dog, being educated, being well off, your zip/post code, being married.
Notice the level of education and intelligence HIS disciples possess. We ain't talkin corned beef. Of course, I've known about this but to hear the opponents talk one might get the wrong impression.No, what you write gives the wrong impression. You have a very poor grasp of logic, verbal reasoning and scientific evidence. No evidence of a higher level of education or intelligence than average.
PS please stop quoting and answering yourself.
Post by: alancalverd on 30/04/2020 23:59:18
Atheism Is Inconsistent with the Scientific Method, Prizewinning Physicist Says...……………..
..................….Valued at just under $1.5 million, the award from the John Templeton Foundation annually recognizes an individual “who has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life’s spiritual dimension.” .
Every man has his price.
Even I would talk meaningless bollocks for $1.5M.
The scientific method is observe, hypothesise, test. If you haven't defined god, you can't apply the scientific method to test its existence, and every time you do define it, it fails.
Post by: alancalverd on 01/05/2020 00:13:22
Quote
women who went to any kind of religious service more than once a week had a 33% lower chance than their secular peers of dying during the 16-year study-follow-up period. ....................... worshippers were 55% less likely to die during the up to 18-year follow-up period than people who didn’t frequent the temple, church or mosque.
So it's nothing to do with Jesus, then. Or even monotheism. Indeed if you include Buddhism, any deities at all. Apologies for applying the scientific method.
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 01:36:56
This should help.Unfortunately, no.
Nothing you have provided is scientific evidence.
In a court of law if you produced 5 witnesses saying a car was red and you opponent had one witness saying green, it is likely the judge would find in your favour. However, that would not be scientific evidence that the car really was red.Many theologians emphasize religion’s empirical foundations, agreeing with the physicist and Anglican priest John Polkinghorne:I remember Polkinghorne and have attended some of his lectures. What is he referring to in the quote? If he is saying that religious belief is real and can guide one in life etc, then I agree with him. However, it is not in itself proof of the existence of a god.
“The question of truth is as central to [religion’s] concern as it is in science. Religious belief can guide one in life or strengthen one at the approach of death, but unless it is actually true it can do neither of these things and so would amount to no more than an illusory exercise in comforting fantasy.”
We know that belief can play a significant part in people's recovery from illness and placebos are a well known phenomenon, but you wouldn’t claim a placebo is a drug.Tyler VanderWeele, a professor of epidemiology at Harvard School of Public Health, rocked the secular world when he published in May of 2016 a study that showed churchgoers live longer than people who eschew the pew.Hardly rocked anything. This has been known for quite some time prior to 2016.
A previous study in 1999 by Rogers, Hummer and Ellison, looked into this and even drew on even earlier studies.
However, nothing in that study, nor the comments made by Tyler VanderWeele are scientific evidence of the existence of a god.
There are many things which correlate with longevity; eg owning a dog, being educated, being well off, your zip/post code, being married.Notice the level of education and intelligence HIS disciples possess. We ain't talkin corned beef. Of course, I've known about this but to hear the opponents talk one might get the wrong impression.No, what you write gives the wrong impression. You have a very poor grasp of logic, verbal reasoning and scientific evidence. No evidence of a higher level of education or intelligence than average.
PS please stop quoting and answering yourself.
I will continue as I have. It is a shame you are unable to appreciate the significance of the information.
Christ is real and the evidence is exceedingly abundant. I'll be sure to seek your counsel if I want it.
"I think the more we enter together into Christ’s work, He will have the more room to work His work in us. For He always desires us to be one that He may be one with us. Our worship is social, and Christ will be wherever two or three are gathered together in His name." True. Thanks James Clark Maxwell for your letter to your fiancé.
"But having said this, we may well give thanks to God that our friend was what he was, a firm Christian believer, and that his powerful mind, after ranging at will through the illimitable spaces of Creation, and almost handling what he called “the foundation stones of the material universe,” found its true rest and happiness in the love and the mercy of Him whom the humblest Christian calls his Father." Friends of Maxwell
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 01:50:18
Quotewomen who went to any kind of religious service more than once a week had a 33% lower chance than their secular peers of dying during the 16-year study-follow-up period. ....................... worshippers were 55% less likely to die during the up to 18-year follow-up period than people who didn’t frequent the temple, church or mosque.
So it's nothing to do with Jesus, then. Or even monotheism. Indeed if you include Buddhism, any deities at all. Apologies for applying the scientific method.
apples to oranges
when was the n.t. penned?
Post by: Colin2B on 01/05/2020 08:49:47
It is a shame you are unable to appreciate the significance of the information.I fully appreciate the significance of the information and the conviction of those who give their testimony. I respect their beliefs and would defend their right to hold those views (as long as it doesn’t lead them into sin), however, nothing you have posted amounts to scientific evidence.
Many of your posts also bear poor witness to Jesus’s message.
I will continue as I have.If you continue as you are, you will be preaching which is against the forum rules.
Try to concentrate on scientific evidence rather than quoting testimony.
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 12:33:13
Every man has his price.
Prove that is true.
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 12:39:37
It is a shame you are unable to appreciate the significance of the information.I fully appreciate the significance of the information and the conviction of those who give their testimony. I respect their beliefs and would defend their right to hold those views (as long as it doesn’t lead them into sin), however, nothing you have posted amounts to scientific evidence.
Many of your posts also bear poor witness to Jesus’s message.I will continue as I have.If you continue as you are, you will be preaching which is against the forum rules.
Try to concentrate on scientific evidence rather than quoting testimony.
Harassing others isn't showing respect as demanded in the rules. The information I am sharing is scientific. If I don't respond to you, don't hope that I will.
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 12:46:04
What is your point? When was the N.T. penned? You never answered correctly. You changed your answer but that too was way off as I showed you.HE's my DAD, the ONE I longed for all my life and gave up hope I'd fine.This really belongs in the "God" thread, but it's the key to monotheistic faith.
Most people spend their childhood in an environment where, whatever happens during the day, a big man with a beard (or at least a 5 o'clock shadow) arrives in the evening and dishes out justice, forgiveness, pizza, etc. Some of us grow up and assume all the responsibilities of a dad (or mum), including the liability for failure. Others, who lack the guts to be a proper adult, get on their knees and hope that there's another big man with a beard who will put things right in this life or the next, if you ask nicely. And some make a living by embellishing and selling that ridiculous idea, for which there is no actual evidence.
Post by: Colin2B on 01/05/2020 12:46:30
Harassing others isn't showing respect as demanded in the rules. The information I am sharing is scientific. If I don't respond to you, don't hope that I will.It is not harassment to request that you abide by the rules.
The information you are sharing is not scientific.
A decision not to respond is entirely yours, but don't expect any bending of the rules.
Post by: alancalverd on 01/05/2020 14:15:13
I quoted mine, the same as Marcelo Gleiser whom you quoted as an example, and BC, with whom I often enjoy a little light disagreement. Three random scientists all give the same figure, so it's a good working hypothesis.Every man has his price.
Prove that is true.
The motto is good enough for the President of the USA, who applies it routinely to women he has abused - indeed it is a traditional Presidential motto.
So how much would you demand to utter a white lie that comforts many and offends nobody?
Post by: alancalverd on 01/05/2020 14:25:42
What is your point? When was the N.T. penned? You never answered correctly.
First point was obviously to explain why some people like the idea of a god. But that isn't relevant to this thread anyway.
My copy of the NT is part of the Revised Standard Version, an English translation of the Bible published in 1952 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of Churches. This translation itself is a revision of the American Standard Version of 1901, and was intended to be a readable and literally accurate modern English translation. I have read passages from the later New English Bible but the language is too "wet" for my taste.
I've also quoted the Council of Nicea, which was convened in AD325 and selected the texts that form pretty well all the later editions.
Which date do you dispute? Are you accusing the National Council of Churches and/or the emperor Constantine of lying on their title page?
Post by: Colin2B on 01/05/2020 14:26:15
Is an epidemiological study accepted as proof?As Alan says, it doesn’t prove cause
One that compares people with experiences of God and the supernatural with those in similar circumstances but do not believe in God.This would be a difficult study to design, but it is closer to the subject of this topic.
When you say God, I assume you mean Christian, biblical god. How would you design the experiment?
A study that looks at events that have seemingly have no rational physical explanation, and do studies to determine whether these give plausibility to the existence of God.you say ‘seemingly’, I might say ‘currently’.
Just because you can’t currently find an explanation doesn’t mean the answer is god, there could be many explanations. Science is constantly probing areas we don’t have answers for and finding those answers.
I just think that God, at this time, in not prepared to be tested and proved.So why are we bothering to try and design an experiment? You are saying they will all fail. This is part of what Alan calls the moving goalposts, a kind of get out of gaol card.
A period of about five years should do it. It life does not change very much, then I guess I have to accept that I was mistaken about the information given to me.This whole hypothesis of yours won’t count as a valid experiment. You would have needed to write down the information you think was given to you well before the event occurred, have it notarised, placed in independent keeping.
That will still not change my belief that the supernatural exists. I have had too many experiences indicating the existence of the supernatural.You might be able to convince yourself, but it is unlikely others will believe you.
Currently your ‘information’ regarding a pandemic could have been a good guess. Far Eastern countries (who do not generally believe in the Christian god) have been stockpiling PPE for such an event, the UK held a pandemic simulation exercise in 2016, and at least one fictional account of a pandemic mentions Wuhan. However, your ‘information’ is revealed after the event, so of little value in a scientific study, other than the fact that at first sight others have given pre event information.
Also, your idea of reduced immunity doesn’t seem to hold water.
To be honest, if this virus is targeted at reducing the population significantly it is pretty poor at doing so. Rather than targeting women of childbearing age, it disproportionately kills elderly males and those of ‘ethnic minorities’. Somewhere a bible bashing, white suprematist, pension fund manager is down on his/her knees thanking god for answered prayer.
Seriously, I don’t think these threads are going anywhere scientific. They are being hijacked by @duffyd who has a very poor understanding of logic, verbal reasoning, and scientific evidence. He’s currently doing the equivalent of putting his fingers in his ears and going “naw, naw, naw”, plus some very childish comments. Not good witness at all.
Post by: alancalverd on 01/05/2020 14:37:18
Seriously, I don’t think these threads are going anywhere scientific.
True, but it's more fun than sitting at home waiting for death, and less risky than going out and inviting death.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/05/2020 15:29:31
Why are you unable to understand that there is all the difference in the world between "someone said something" and proof that the something is true?
It is a shame you are unable to appreciate the significance of the information.You are the one failing to understand the (lack of) significance.
A person saying something is not actually significant.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/05/2020 15:30:54
apples to orangesThanks for pointing out that you know that you are talking about stuff that's not what you said it was.
Now please answer my question.
Why bear false witness about what the science says?
Post by: jeffreyH on 01/05/2020 18:57:55
What is your point? When was the N.T. penned? You never answered correctly. You changed your answer but that too was way off as I showed you.HE's my DAD, the ONE I longed for all my life and gave up hope I'd fine.This really belongs in the "God" thread, but it's the key to monotheistic faith.
Most people spend their childhood in an environment where, whatever happens during the day, a big man with a beard (or at least a 5 o'clock shadow) arrives in the evening and dishes out justice, forgiveness, pizza, etc. Some of us grow up and assume all the responsibilities of a dad (or mum), including the liability for failure. Others, who lack the guts to be a proper adult, get on their knees and hope that there's another big man with a beard who will put things right in this life or the next, if you ask nicely. And some make a living by embellishing and selling that ridiculous idea, for which there is no actual evidence.
You didn't answer who wrote the Pentateuch so that makes you a hypocrite.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/05/2020 19:04:29
You didn't answer who wrote the Pentateuch so that makes you a hypocrite.True, but on that point, it's probably quicker to list the things he did answer.
It's as if he doesn't think the rules apply to him.
Not the rules of the forum, not the rules of decent debate; not even the rules of logic.
He's probably going to ignore this and say something rude.
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 20:34:33
I quoted mine, the same as Marcelo Gleiser whom you quoted as an example, and BC, with whom I often enjoy a little light disagreement. Three random scientists all give the same figure, so it's a good working hypothesis.Every man has his price.
Prove that is true.
The motto is good enough for the President of the USA, who applies it routinely to women he has abused - indeed it is a traditional Presidential motto.
So how much would you demand to utter a white lie that comforts many and offends nobody?
It may be a good working hypothesis, but you didn't prove it is true.
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 20:38:55
What is your point? When was the N.T. penned? You never answered correctly.
First point was obviously to explain why some people like the idea of a god. But that isn't relevant to this thread anyway.
My copy of the NT is part of the Revised Standard Version, an English translation of the Bible published in 1952 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of Churches. This translation itself is a revision of the American Standard Version of 1901, and was intended to be a readable and literally accurate modern English translation. I have read passages from the later New English Bible but the language is too "wet" for my taste.
I've also quoted the Council of Nicea, which was convened in AD325 and selected the texts that form pretty well all the later editions.
Which date do you dispute? Are you accusing the National Council of Churches and/or the emperor Constantine of lying on their title page?
You bet. Would you dispute Ehrman? I quoted scholars for you who place the writing of the N.T. hundreds of years earlier.
Post by: alancalverd on 01/05/2020 21:20:45
Unless your friend Ehrman actually wrote the New Testament, I'm inclined to believe the guys who signed and dated it.
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 21:23:31
Please answer the question: how much would you charge to utter a white lie?
Unless your friend Ehrman actually wrote the New Testament, I'm inclined to believe the guys who signed and dated it.
What did they sign? A document which indicates that the signees wrote the N.T.? Can you prove that?
Post by: duffyd on 01/05/2020 21:27:58
Post by: alancalverd on 01/05/2020 21:34:18
Post by: alancalverd on 01/05/2020 21:36:00
What white lie?You choose. All I require is that it is harmless and that you know it is untrue. Would $15M be acceptable?
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 00:32:21
What white lie?You choose. All I require is that it is harmless and that you know it is untrue. Would $15M be acceptable?
Let me see the certified check with the terms signed by a notary and I'll swear not to keep badgering you until you have a nervous breakdown.
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 00:43:40
Though I have no respect for the analytical intellect of Christians, they do seem to be a pretty canny bunch when it comes to money. Now I can't imagine Constantine, King James or the National Council of Churches paying their editors for simply saying they wrote something. Surely they had to actually deliver a product? And given the differences between, say, the KJV, RSV and NEB, it's pretty obvious that the dates bear some resemblance to the truth.
Much better. I see where you quoted them asserting it was in fact they who wrote the N. T. My batting average just soared to a 1,000 percent, again, for the new season. Send in a reliever. Even I hate to be this good.
I was hoping you'd agree to debate publicly several Christians whose intellect you find weak. Let's start with Fran Collins. I'll set it up for a podcast with THS. Sawright? Sawright.
Post by: syhprum on 02/05/2020 00:52:39
When a real miracle was required freeing him from his captors and preventing his execution he was found lacking.
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 01:01:16
Though I have no respect for the analytical intellect of Christians, they do seem to be a pretty canny bunch when it comes to money. Now I can't imagine Constantine, King James or the National Council of Churches paying their editors for simply saying they wrote something. Surely they had to actually deliver a product? And given the differences between, say, the KJV, RSV and NEB, it's pretty obvious that the dates bear some resemblance to the truth.
Much better. I see where you quoted them asserting it was in fact they who wrote the N. T. My batting average just soared to a 1,000 percent, again, for the new season. Send in a reliever. Even I hate to be this good.
I was hoping you'd agree to debate publicly several Christians whose intellect you find weak. Let's start with Fran Collins. I'll set it up for a podcast with THS. Sawright? Sawright.
No good? How about Tyler VanderWeele, a professor of epidemiology at Harvard School of Public Health? Give the nod and I'll set it up.
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 01:08:30
If he was god incarnate why were so many of the so called miracles he performed the petty party tricks that lay preachers perform al the time .
When a real miracle was required freeing him from his captors and preventing his execution he was found lacking.
Exactly! He really blew it when He didn't respond to his fans who wanted to know the same thing. Hey! Yo! Hey God's Son, sup? Get your butt down from there, you phony punk. Yep. U b the Son of somethin alright! LOL! Right boys?
Hey Pal, who was it who just knocked your teeth out? Hmmm? Prophesize Big Boy. I thought you was God! LOLOLOLOLOLOL!! Look at Him now boys!! LOLOLOLO.
Been there done that. How about challenging HIM to rise again once He's dead. That would be a pretty good trick, no?
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 01:10:34
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 01:17:57
The more things change... Right? The heart of man. Nothing is as polluted.
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/05/2020 10:32:37
Please answer the question: how much would you charge to utter a white lie?He's on record as lying.
I presume it was for free.
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/05/2020 10:37:20
Observe the hatred that pours out of people for HIM.OK, just show a sentence from anyone here that shows hatred of either version of "Him".
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 10:45:04
Why bring it up? Who cares why you believe some people like the idea of God?
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 10:47:36
If he was god incarnate why were so many of the so called miracles he performed the petty party tricks that lay preachers perform al the time .
When a real miracle was required freeing him from his captors and preventing his execution he was found lacking.
Raising Lazarus from the dead was chopped liver?
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 10:53:26
1,000 percent.
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 11:04:49
. Indeed if you include Buddhism, any deities at all.
Buddha was God? Any deities? Whom did you have in mind besides Buddha?
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 11:14:52
Though I have no respect for the analytical intellect of Christians, they do seem to be a pretty canny bunch when it comes to money. Now I can't imagine Constantine, King James or the National Council of Churches paying their editors for simply saying they wrote something. Surely they had to actually deliver a product? And given the differences between, say, the KJV, RSV and NEB, it's pretty obvious that the dates bear some resemblance to the truth.
"A group of high-powered MIT and Harvard professors were featured recently at a forum to debunk the notion that there is a conflict between science and faith.
Rosalind Picard and Ian Hutchinson are professors at Massachusetts Institute of Technology while Tyler VanderWeele and Nancy E. Hill are professors at Harvard University – and all four are firm believers in God and integrate their faith and their research seamlessly.
“People who think they can’t deal with faith are really just deceiving themselves,” said Picard, the founder of the branch of computing known as affective computing. “All people in science are accepting something on faith. The question is what are evidence for that, and do you accept the kinds of evidence that is not scientific?”
Michael Ashcraft
Ok? Take your pick. Are you willing to debate any of them?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/05/2020 12:09:38
Ok? Take your pick. Are you willing to debate any of them?If any one of them had actually been able to produce a proof, we would all know about it by now.
What's the point of further debate?
Buddha was God?No. That's the point.
Even the temple-going buddhists, who don't worship any God , live longer.
So the longevity is nothing to do with God, never mind your silly claim that it was to do with a belief in Christ.
He's probably going to ignore this and say something rude.
Post by: alancalverd on 02/05/2020 12:20:52
The Council had nothing to do with the writing of the New Testament, as you finally acknowledge.Simply ignoring what I wrote, and most people agree to be true, is not proof that you are right.
1,000 percent.
I think it kindest to assume that you are just dim, not evil. So here it is in very simple words.
Thousands of scientific papers and textbooks are published every year. I have a copy of a fairly popular book titled "Modern Scientific Writing." It consists of extracts from about 100 papers and textbooks written in the previous 100 years by various authors, covering the spectrum from quantum physics to astrobiology, and from tediously precise experiments to moderately informed speculation. The selection and editing were done by Richard Dawkins, who is therefore credited as the author of MSW, and his preface gives the date he finished the job.
Same applies to the bible. Of all the possible ancient texts by authors known and unknown and copied more or less accurately by unnamed scribes, the Council of Nicea selected and edited what has pretty much become the modern Christian bible after a few more translations and revisions. Why doubt it?
Post by: alancalverd on 02/05/2020 12:23:49
A group of high-powered MIT and Harvard professors were featured recently at a forum to debunk the notion that there is a conflict between science and faith.No conflict. Just two different products, one of which actually works. But it's often easier to sell the one that doesn't., because it makes a virtue out of naïve ignorance and depends on its users not understanding it.
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 13:16:03
The Council had nothing to do with the writing of the New Testament, as you finally acknowledge.Simply ignoring what I wrote, and most people agree to be true, is not proof that you are right.
1,000 percent.
I think it kindest to assume that you are just dim, not evil. So here it is in very simple words.
Thousands of scientific papers and textbooks are published every year. I have a copy of a fairly popular book titled "Modern Scientific Writing." It consists of extracts from about 100 papers and textbooks written in the previous 100 years by various authors, covering the spectrum from quantum physics to astrobiology, and from tediously precise experiments to moderately informed speculation. The selection and editing were done by Richard Dawkins, who is therefore credited as the author of MSW, and his preface gives the date he finished the job.
Same applies to the bible. Of all the possible ancient texts by authors known and unknown and copied more or less accurately by unnamed scribes, the Council of Nicea selected and edited what has pretty much become the modern Christian bible after a few more translations and revisions. Why doubt it?
Lol.
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 13:18:04
A group of high-powered MIT and Harvard professors were featured recently at a forum to debunk the notion that there is a conflict between science and faith.No conflict. Just two different products, one of which actually works. But it's often easier to sell the one that doesn't., because it makes a virtue out of naïve ignorance and depends on its users not understanding it.
You refuse. I understand.
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/05/2020 14:04:04
Fixed it for you.A group of high-powered MIT and Harvard professors were featured recently at a forum to debunk the notion that there is a conflict between science and faith.No conflict. Just two different products, one of which actually works. But it's often easier to sell the one that doesn't., because it makes a virtue out of naïve ignorance and depends on its users not understanding it.
You refuse. I understand very little.
Post by: alancalverd on 02/05/2020 16:18:08
You refuse. I understand.
Why do you insist on arguing when I agree with you? Were we married once?
Post by: duffyd on 02/05/2020 17:09:11
You refuse. I understand.
Why do you insist on arguing when I agree with you? Were we married once?
I was reading about how much atheists despise Christians and our GOD, all written by atheists. This one bloke was particularly enraged over God commanding Dave to do some involuntary circumcisions on grown men. Dave was thrilled to oblige his God and removed 200 foreskins instead of 100, the bare minimum, in addition to slaughtering the fellas.
I find atheists all over the place who love to hate over stuff just like this.
This cat wouldn't read my attempts to inform him that it was Old King Saul, not GOD, who directed Dave to perform that task.
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/05/2020 19:42:42
This cat wouldn't read my attempts to inform him that it was Old King Saul, not GOD, who directed Dave to perform that task.What did God do to stop it?
What?
Oh, nothing- as usual.
Looks like He doesn't exist.
downplaying or criticizing the beauty found within GOD's characterVery beautiful character... Like to watch people die horribly.
Post by: Jolly2 on 03/05/2020 03:53:03
QuoteHe preached HE HIMSELF was GOD ALMIGHTY
Show one place Jesus ever said that?
Just one...Quote"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58).
So Jesus claims to have been around since before Abraham was born. How is that him claiming to be Almighty God himself?Quote"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Quote rabbi Mordechai Kraft "what is love? When you become me, when I give soo much to you that I can no longer separate between you and me and therefore I see you as a part of me, I love you, we're one"
Oh and ofcourse as you see in John 17.20 ".... may they all be one in us as you are in me and I am in you... that they may be one as we are one"QuoteTherefore the Jews certainly understood that Jesus was claiming to be God
They certainly did not.Quoteand they sought to kill Him because of it. "'What about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son"?
Exodus 4.22 "Israel is my first born son I order you to let my son go"
Jesus ofcourse is a member of Israel. John 4.23 "salvation comes from the Jews"
John 3.16 "God loved the world so much he sent his son into the world."
Matthew 5.9 "happy the pacemakers for they shall be called sons of God "
Ergo all Jews are called to be gods childrenQuoteDo not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.' Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp." (John 10:36-39).
Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Exactly jesus represents God fully but to represent someone isnt to be them.Quoteme when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'" (John 14:7-11, 20).
Think about it.
He's inside me. I asked Him to come in and He manifested His presence. As God, He was already in me, because He's everywhere. But, inviting Him to live in me a true relationship formed. Listen, interpret the scriptures however you choose. That's fine with me.
I see the same scriptures clearly pointing to His divinity. We can play bible ping-pong forever. You share a verse that doesn't establish He was God and I share one with you that I think does.
I asked for a verse where jesus claims it. And you have not provided one.
Post by: duffyd on 03/05/2020 09:42:21
You've had your fun. I will not be rude so I will explain to you now that I will no longer answer your foolish questions. I've done this before and it is nothing personal.
Post by: alancalverd on 03/05/2020 09:47:18
This cat wouldn't read my attempts to inform him that it was Old King Saul, not GOD, who directed Dave to perform that task.But wasn't Saul quoting God as his authority? The Divine Right of Kings is just part of the persitent filth of faith.
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/05/2020 09:48:29
I will no longer answer your foolish questions.You don't answer any questions.
You just try to preach, then claim you have won all the arguments.
Post by: duffyd on 03/05/2020 10:07:13
Post by: duffyd on 03/05/2020 10:40:28
I quoted mine, the same as Marcelo Gleiser whom you quoted as an example, and BC, with whom I often enjoy a little light disagreement. Three random scientists all give the same figure, so it's a good working hypothesis.Every man has his price.
Prove that is true.
The motto is good enough for the President of the USA, who applies it routinely to women he has abused - indeed it is a traditional Presidential motto.
So how much would you demand to utter a white lie that comforts many and offends nobody?
No proof. Alan, what's gotten into you?
Oh yes, I almost forgot. You didn't provide any evidence the Nicaean Council signed anything, let alone that they were the gentlemen who wrote the N.T. And, Alan, the Reader's Digest always attributes the articles it publishes to the folks who wrote them, even after they pick very carefully which stories they will publish. And they always use editors for every story they include. Best selling monthly journal in the world. Knew the publisher.
Post by: duffyd on 03/05/2020 10:59:11
This cat wouldn't read my attempts to inform him that it was Old King Saul, not GOD, who directed Dave to perform that task.But wasn't Saul quoting God as his authority? The Divine Right of Kings is just part of the persitent filth of faith.
Is that what the Old Testament teaches? What does the N.T. teach? Is your faith in science 100 percent pure? Do some scientists exploit their faith in the science god? What are your beliefs, Al?
Would you like to try to explain what constitutes evidence? And why is science unable to offer a single reason proving there is no god? Sup with that? That's devastating. If science was hip, it would offer evidence to back up its claim that GOD doesn't exist, I would think.
Post by: Colin2B on 03/05/2020 14:16:35
If science was hip, it would offer evidence to back up its claim that GOD doesn't exist, I would think.Science does not claim that any god doesn’t exist, just that there is no scientific evidence for it.
Why do you insist on misquoting all the time, that’s bad witness and denying Jesus.
Alan and BoredC have made their position clear, they do not see any evidence that a god exists.
You have made your position clear, that you believe there is a god, but you have failed to provide any scientific evidence.
Belief and emotional feelings do not provide proof of something’s existence.
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/05/2020 14:19:40
What does the N.T. teach?It teaches that you should follow the OT.
Some so-called Christians deny this, in spite of it being the gospel truth.
Presumably that's because they know that keeping slaves etc is wrong.
Post by: duffyd on 03/05/2020 14:30:40
You refuse. I understand.
Why do you insist on arguing when I agree with you? Were we married once?
Sorry Al. Not ignoring you. Just busy.
"His buddies also called him GOD" moi
"...citation needed, particularly as none of the current bible was written by anyone who knew him."
Proven Wrong. Again. 1,000 percent
Nobody "penned the NT", or ever claimed to. It's a random collection of books and letters of vague provenance, collated edited and translated at various times for the benefit of whoever paid for the work. Big Al
Wrong again. Proven. 1,000 percent
If you can prove the authors made money from their writing, do so. Of course, you cannot. Paul made and sold tents for income. If you think I enjoy reminding you are wrong constantly, you are wrong. I had been hopeful you would be able to contribute to this discussion.
I don't know how to correct you continuously without hurting your feelings.
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/05/2020 14:33:17
If you can prove the authors made money from their writing,Since when did that even look a bit like the point?
Post by: duffyd on 03/05/2020 14:45:05
I don't. You exaggerate and lie.If science was hip, it would offer evidence to back up its claim that GOD doesn't exist, I would think.Science does not claim that any god doesn’t exist, just that there is no scientific evidence for it.
Why do you insist on misquoting all the time, that’s bad witness and denying Jesus.
Alan and BoredC have made their position clear, they do not see any evidence that a god exists.
You have made your position clear, that you believe there is a god, but you have failed to provide any scientific evidence.
Belief and emotional feelings do not provide proof of something’s existence.
Was Jesus a good witness?
Evangelising removed
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/05/2020 14:52:48
Was Jesus a good witness?It does not matter.
He's not in court to testify.
That's the point you keep missing.
You keep trying to pretend that hearsay is evidence.
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/05/2020 14:55:39
Define evidence before you say I didn't provide any.
We already did.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=79132.msg599647#msg599647
And you have not produced any evidence.
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/05/2020 14:56:06
Pay attention.LOL
You first.
Post by: alancalverd on 03/05/2020 15:52:41
Is your faith in science 100 percent pure?Oxymoron. Science is the antithesis of faith.
Post by: alancalverd on 03/05/2020 15:56:17
Reader's Digest ….. always use editors for every story they include.Which is why they acknowledge the editors and abridgers, and put a date on every issue.
Post by: duffyd on 03/05/2020 16:46:47
The Council signed what? Whom do they acknowledge as the writers of the autographs?Reader's Digest ….. always use editors for every story they include.Which is why they acknowledge the editors and abridgers, and put a date on every issue.
The Council didn't write the N.T.
Did Hitler use "science" to destroy lives?
Do we have sufficient numbers of nukes to kill 7 billion people?
Do you know scientists who use their knowledge to flaunt their smarts?
And you provide no legitimate reason not to seek HIM (and you pretend to be a scientist).
And you refuse to define evidence. And you think you are fooling me? Am I your GOD? Codependency, AL.
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/05/2020 17:01:59
The Council didn't write the N.T.Well someone must have written it- because we have lots of copies of it. It didn't write itself.
So who did write it?
And you refuse to define evidence.That lie is getting particularly tiresome.
Define evidence before you say I didn't provide any.
We already did.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=79132.msg599647#msg599647
And you have not produced any evidence.
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/05/2020 17:04:47
Am I your GOD? Codependency, AL.Are you his DOG?
Codependency - shepherd and dog.
Post by: duffyd on 04/05/2020 03:24:16
Which is why they acknowledge the editors and abridgers, and put a date on every issue.
Evangelising removed
If you continue to use these threads to evangelise - which is against the forum rules - the posts will be removed, the threads will be locked and you may face a ban.
Post by: duffyd on 07/05/2020 17:26:04
The Council signed what? Whom do they acknowledge as the writers of the autographs?Reader's Digest ….. always use editors for every story they include.Which is why they acknowledge the editors and abridgers, and put a date on every issue.
The Council didn't write the N.T.
Did Hitler use "science" to destroy lives?
Do we have sufficient numbers of nukes to kill 7 billion people?
Do you know scientists who use their knowledge to flaunt their smarts?
And you provide no legitimate reason not to seek HIM (and you pretend to be a scientist).
And you refuse to define evidence. And you think you are fooling me? Am I your GOD? Codependency, AL.
Al was quick to address a different topic while he has never followed through on questions like these which emerged from his previous dubious statements.
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/05/2020 18:09:57
Dear pot, thanks for your comments about not replying to questions,The Council signed what? Whom do they acknowledge as the writers of the autographs?Reader's Digest ….. always use editors for every story they include.Which is why they acknowledge the editors and abridgers, and put a date on every issue.
The Council didn't write the N.T.
Did Hitler use "science" to destroy lives?
Do we have sufficient numbers of nukes to kill 7 billion people?
Do you know scientists who use their knowledge to flaunt their smarts?
And you provide no legitimate reason not to seek HIM (and you pretend to be a scientist).
And you refuse to define evidence. And you think you are fooling me? Am I your GOD? Codependency, AL.
Al was quick to address a different topic while he has never followed through on questions like these which emerged from his previous dubious statements.
Signed on behalf of
Kettle
Post by: alancalverd on 08/05/2020 21:22:02
I'll take that as a yes, then. Thus demonstrating the invalidity of the Templeton Prize as a guarantee of honesty or accuracy.What white lie?You choose. All I require is that it is harmless and that you know it is untrue. Would $15M be acceptable?
Let me see the certified check with the terms signed by a notary and I'll swear not to keep badgering you until you have a nervous breakdown.
Over and out.
Post by: duffyd on 11/05/2020 07:25:17
So the question is what do you mean by "believe"? Or indeed "bible"? A ragbag of texts written in various languages over some 4000 years, with bits of history, bits of statute law, various poems, raving mysticism, sex and violence, and "eyewitness" accounts by people who weren't alive at the time. There's certainly evidence that Caucasians had a single female ancestor, but none for a snake and an apple, and Eve still doesn't explain the other races on the planet.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance
Al's serious response
Post by: syhprum on 11/05/2020 08:25:06