[demografx]

PROLACTIN AND CFS

Girlwind and _________ (sorry I forgot the names of the other CFS-affected individuals here): this seemed like an intriguing link. Unfortunately it requires registration, but here is the Google description:

"Baseline prolactin levels were the same in all three groups, but rose much faster and higher in the patients with CFS than in the other two groups after ..."
http://general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/1992/512/6

In search of POIS villains, I was shocked to see that my prolactin is sky-high. I'm going into the lab today for follow up blood tests.

[underwater]

Steve--
I just wanted to respond to your last comment regarding stages.
I have thought about stages in the past, but not with a lot of specificity.
Here are my thoughts expressed in a very generalized manner. I may change my mind on these stages, but I wanted to respond to your thoughts quickly. These so called "stages" have been quite obvious to me, and I have often wondered whether I am just an observer or a participant/observer in these "Stages". Can "I" influence these stages? I believe I can, but I don't know for sure. I am working on it. Enough babble from me, here they are: 1) Anticipatory/neurotic stage (psychological/chemical)
                        2) Orgasm (chemical)
                        3) Delay  (neurotic/chemical)
                        4) POIS  (chemical)
These are my stages representing "my" experiences only. I have a real, psychological component to my POIS that plays its part. I use the word neurotic to substitute for my anxiety syndrome as it plays its part in POIS. I understand that for others, there may be no psychological aspect at all. But for me (historically), as I have suggested before in other posts, there are without question psychological/emotional precipitating events. But also without question, genetics and biochemistry play a huge role. I also think that injury plays a role, perhaps bigger than I suspect. But this I don't want to elaborate on now. Sorry if this is a rambling answer, I have to get out of the house quickly and wanted to respond.

[girlwind]

The point of this expostion is... if it is true that POIS is harmful to all of us, and if POIS has at least five stages, then perhaps stopping the illness at an earlier stage would be easier, more effective and could alleviate some of our very real suffering.

...Just a thought

Steve--I think you've made an interesting point about your POIS beginning with the "thought" of sex. Then the "thrill
of the thought," followed by the "ritual" (of masturbation OR possibly intercourse, too--why not include that?), and
then the genital contact, and then the actual orgasm with the "catastrophic collapse" of emotions--of hopelessness
and negativity and despair, etc. This is an insightful description. And there's another side to the picture as well.

What I've noticed is that there are distinctly different KINDS of sexual motivations at work, depending on the sexual
stimulus and one's response to it. The "desperately driven" feeling to have sex is one kind. I think that's what you
might be describing... But there's also another, which I prefer, and have more of now that I've been with my current
partner for ten years. I would describe it as a sleepy-relaxed-cuddly sexual feeling. It is the OPPOSITE of "sexually
stimulated," and the key word for me, oddly enough, is "sleepy." I feel my body getting very relaxed and my anxieties
dissolving. Only after I feel completely relaxed, do the the sexual feelings begin to predominate, but the urge is not
a driven feeling, but more like a sensual bonding feeling.... The only apprehension I've felt revolves around question-
ing  "how tired am I going to be, if I go through to the orgasm?" Though that is something I have now trained myself
(quite successfully) to avoid.

As I'm writing this, I am flashing back to the woman from the reuniting website. She addressed these different kinds
of sexual response and writes about them extensively, especially in regard to dopamine and oxytocin, and their effects.
You should check out what she and her partner have written about this. It might be very enlightening for you.
 http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain

[demografx]

Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome. The name has a chilling feel to it, like walking down a waxed linoleum floored, olive drably-painted hospital hallway...Upon orgasm, not even one third the way through it, my brain structure begins a catastrophic collapse...then how can I say it's simply orgasm that causes this....

Very interesting post, Steve. I am only affected by "POIS" after ejaculatory orgasm. Period. But I realize that not everyone is built that way. I like your 5 Stages, and I have seen evidence from others that, for example, sexual arousal alone can create serious mood/chemistry shifts in sufferers. In other words, arousal - not just orgasm - can create "POIS"! (please note I use POIS in quotes, because this malady-example is NOT due to orgasm.)

Apart from my cut-and-dried "POIS" malady, I'll be honest and tell you my current reason for liking "POIS" so much: when trying to find help for this agonizing condition, many of us have been dismissed or ridiculed by the medical and therapeutic communities - for decades. Or our doctors have quickly concluded that this illnesss is "psychosomatic" and we're shipped off to the psychologist or psychiatrist for "treatment"!

But now...we have a medical paper written by an MD (Waldinger) who (1) writes that it is NOT psychosomatic and (2) treats the condition very seriously and gives it a medical name with the right scientific buzzwords which connote credibility.

Medical credibility. That's been our main benefit. When I went to this major, world-class University research facility and handed their endocrinologist Dr. Waldinger's paper, I could see everything change in the doctor's opinion, compared to my past experiences. And in fact, he uses the words "your syndrome" when speaking with me about it. He authorized my very expensive (for insurance)brain scans because of the credibility. I doubt he would have done this if I had just come in and complained of "symptoms after sex".

I also saw a positive credibility reaction from my old friend who is a biophysics pioneer author/researcher in HIV/AIDS, and a well known medical entrepreneur and Harvard lecturer, when he asked me, "Have any papers been written about this?" "Yes? Please send!"

Health insurance reimbursement also now become much less of a problem; it's a proven medical diagnosis.

As a slight segue, the mere existence of this POIS Forum greatly helps us all as well with credibility.

Steve, I don't know if you've suffered from medical credibility problems, but many of us here have. I can also say that I have received Private Messages to this effect. One of our POIS listmembers even wanted to use my doctor because of this, and he's 1,000 miles away from me!

But none of this invalidates your points. I agree that POIS is not the most ideal description. I'm certainly open to discussion. Thanks very much for the post!

[demografx]

LEVITRA

At one time, this represented a 75% cure for me, cause for much joyful celebration and glee.

Some of us thought that perhaps the major impact on POIS is due to Levitra's effect in stimulating nitric oxide?

It's now over a year later since first discovering Levitra's effect on POIS accidentally, and I'm not so sure how well it's still working.

Perhaps the cognitive symptoms have lessened. But the exhaustion is still there, and it's debilitating, even though the symptomatic length of time has been cut down.

[demografx]

Why keep the POIS name, even for now?

One compelling reason: many, many sufferers have found us here at The POIS Forum, by Googling keywords from Dr. Waldinger's POIS paper - which garnered significant worldwide publicity: not just the regular posters here, but also the people representing the nearly 200,000 page views of this forum.

[Counterpoints]

LEVITRA

At one time, this represented a 75% cure for me, cause for much joyful celebration and glee.

Some of us thought that perhaps the major impact on POIS is due to Levitra's effect in stimulating nitric oxide?

It's now over a year later since first discovering Levitra's effect on POIS accidentally, and I'm not so sure how well it's still working.

Perhaps the cognitive symptoms have lessened. But the exhaustion is still there, and it's debilitating, even though the symptomatic length of time has been cut down.

I believe you once mentioned you tried increasing the dose.  Does this affect the relief you feel from Levitra?

[underwater]

Girlwind--
I read entire article you recommended. Perhaps man/woman has known about these qualitative and quantitative aspects to sex [and perhaps even orgasm] for eons, and expressed these differences in their art, music, dance, trance and any variety of rituals. Maybe these rituals are/were a way to bridge the gap, so to speak, between the metaphors you used of "desperately driven" and "sleepy cuddly", the former causing tribal problems, the latter more conducive to peaceful coexistence. However, in today's world, Freud observed that sublimating the "desperately driven" may result in an uncertain reaction (reaction formation). It's interesting that psychoanalysis is still very popular in Europe, but Pavlov/Skinner rule here in the U.S.. However, both I think are slowly being replaced by the pharmaceutical industry. With respect to POIS, the fact that some people in this forum ESCAPE symptoms every once in a while, and that the symptoms can vary in intensity and duration, lead me to believe that there may be  larger, underlying bodily rhythms  and  that behavioural elements may be significant also. And of course, we may just be missing the right combination of essential nutrients/chemicals. Perhaps we can be healed from POIS, slowly, perhaps in a few surprising stages, just when things may appear to be too complex. This I believe in completely. I am optimistic. "Sleepy plus Cuddly plus Orgasm" will eventually = Relaxed Bliss--------------I am in a very rare and happy mood today as my wife and I will have both our children visiting here together for a few days.

[Counterpoints]

Why keep the POIS name, even for now?

One compelling reason: many, many sufferers have found us here at The POIS Forum, by Googling keywords from Dr. Waldinger's POIS paper - which garnered significant worldwide publicity: not just the regular posters here, but also the people representing the nearly 200,000 page views of this forum.

I absolutely agree.  Changing the name from "POIS" would be an incredible setback; I don't think any single action could damage our cause more.  Under the current label, this condition is gaining recognition in the scientific research community.  It is also becoming more known amongst the general population; now, in other forums, when someone complains of symptoms associated with orgasm, I have seen references made to POIS.  And when the patient types this into a search engine, they are brought to the resources found here and elsewhere.

Besides, the problem described by people here, and written about in the literature, is absolutely overwhelmingly an unusual response to orgasm. There are peripheral stimuli (e.g. sometimes excessive amounts of sugar, etc.) but these vary from person to person and are never the main concern.  Any change which would make this less clear, would not only upset a majority of sufferers who would then be misrepresented, but would give researchers a mixed signal about the main problem -- again, stalling progress.

Finally, Steve, this is a debilitating condition.  I think most of us want to learn about the physiological problems that could cause our symptoms.  And to discuss supplements and medications which have had an effect.  And to attract productive and rigorous research efforts.  In this context, it's somewhat frivolous to consider whether Post-Orgasmic Illness Syndrome makes one think of a linoleum floor.  This is a serious problem, and it's not something I want to have, or want to embrace in any way.  I just want to learn about it, have it taken seriously, have productive research take place, and either manage it effectively, or preferably, free myself of it completely.

[underwater]

With respect to minor differences that may crop up from time to time on this forum, I'd like to comment. First of all, this is a fabulous forum, the best I've ever seen, with the best participants. POIS is probably the most delicate issue that could ever be discussed. And I submit, that delicate is the correct word when it comes to both subject matter and the mode of communication. With respect to the widely accepted term POIS, everybody is correct. I don't see a controvery or even differences.
Let me explain:
              All would probably agree that disorder can be a component of inquiry that may ultimately find its value through digression, reformulation and spontaneous ejaculation (please note the 2nd denotation in Websters). Merleau-Ponty observes,"...everyhing is linked by references to a center of interest...which no guidelines mark out in advance." On the other hand, as Vygotsky notes, "...words and other signs are those means that direct our mental operations...and channel them toward the solution of the problem confronting us."
              Thus, all the recent viewpoints are dialogically proper with respect to POIS, whether there be a spontaneous, prosaic observation or a response to it. All are constructive in their entirety. All seek to add to the discussion of POIS.
              Whether one describes their response to the term POIS with words like inadequacy or dishonest, and another asserts that such a response is frivolous ispart of a constructive discourse. As a philosopher and lawyer, I see no basis for the existence of opposition here. POIS is POIS and serves as a universally accepted term for this forum. It is its identity. However, if a post begins with a vivid, literary introduction that is clearly spontaneous, and ends with a thesis statement that supports the body of the post and urges us to consider POIS as an illness of stages and uses the term POIS twice, then I submit there is no basis of disagreement. This is part of a constructive, multi-perspective dialogue.

[SteveD]

Why keep the POIS name, even for now?
I absolutely agree.  Changing the name from "POIS" would be an incredible setback;

This is a serious problem, and it's not something I want to have, or want to embrace in any way.  I just want to learn about it, have it taken seriously, or preferably, free myself of it completely.

Hold on guys, I didn't suggest changing the name! I, too, believe that would be minimally politically and financially foolish.
What I am suggesting is that there may be stages of this illness, where it can be arrested earlier and have less devastating consequences like cancer, diabetes or coronary heart disease. But to say that a heart attack should be looked at only at the point of infarction would be recklessly irresponsible, on my part, if I want wellness.

I want very much to talk about Girlwind's point , but like Underwater, I'm headed out the door.


Counterpoints,

As an aside, can you list the 10 mental symptoms you have found in your sample of 60% of the respondents?

[SteveD]

With respect to minor differences that may crop up from time to time on this forum, I'd like to comment. First of all, this is a fabulous forum, the best I've ever seen, with the best participants. POIS is probably the most delicate issue that could ever be discussed. And I submit, that delicate is the correct word when it comes to both subject matter and the mode of communication. With respect to the widely accepted term POIS, everybody is correct. I don't see a controvery or even differences.
Let me explain:
              All would probably agree that disorder can be a component of inquiry that may ultimately find its value through digression, reformulation and spontaneous ejaculation (please note the 2nd denotation in Websters). Merleau-Ponty observes,"...everyhing is linked by references to a center of interest...which no guidelines mark out in advance." On the other hand, as Vygotsky notes, "...words and other signs are those means that direct our mental operations...and channel them toward the solution of the problem confronting us."
              Thus, all the recent viewpoints are dialogically proper with respect to POIS, whether there be a spontaneous, prosaic observation or a response to it. All are constructive in their entirety. All seek to add to the discussion of POIS.
              Whether one describes their response to the term POIS with words like inadequacy or dishonest, and another asserts that such a response is frivolous ispart of a constructive discourse. As a philosopher and lawyer, I see no basis for the existence of opposition here. POIS is POIS and serves as a universally accepted term for this forum. It is its identity. However, if a post begins with a vivid, literary introduction that is clearly spontaneous, and ends with a thesis statement that supports the body of the post and urges us to consider POIS as an illness of stages and uses the term POIS twice, then I submit there is no basis of disagreement. This is part of a constructive, multi-perspective dialogue.

Yeah, that!

[Counterpoints]

urges us to consider POIS as an illness of stages and uses the term POIS twice, then I submit there is no basis of disagreement.

I'm not sure what the punchline of your post is.  Is it the above sentence in bold?  (No offense intended, honestly!) but you seem to be expressing, in a rather verbose fashion, that Steve's post is essentially sacrosanct, and that while criticisms are part of constructive discourse, my specific criticism has no place.  Of course, I disagree with that sentiment -- whether or not this is what you intended to get across.

I wasn't responding to the "stages" idea.  I was addressing this:
"Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome. The name has a chilling feel to it, like walking down a waxed linoleum floored, olive drably-painted hospital hallway…There is a sense of on-ness, off-ness that, for me, feels inadequate, bordering on dishonest."

Yes, it may be a rhetorical flourish, and lead-in to his point, but it is also a very plain criticism of the name "POIS".  I felt it important to re-inforce Demografx' point that we would do well to stick with the same name.  I also think getting too "vivid and literary" can be dangerous, and frivolous at best.  It leads to misunderstandings, as evidenced by recent posts, it can be counter-productive (rather than comparing symptoms or medications, we are comparing metaphors), and it certainly wouldn't be entertained by physicians (it comes off as obsessive and dramatic... and this behaviour can cause us to become pre-occupied with something we are, in fact, trying to minimize in our lives).  If Demografx had talked to his endocrinologist in the style of the above quote ("the name has a chilling feel to it... olive drably-painted hospital hallway.."), I doubt he would have had his MRI, which revealed a real problem.  You're free to disagree, and you may have some good points to make in disagreement.  But I feel my concerns are important enough to express.  I think it's safe to say most of us don't want to have this problem.  And we don't want to risk having it romanticized.  And we don't want to lose focus.  This isn't an insult.  This is a concern from someone who is familiar with serious scientific research and wants it to be directed towards this condition.

[Counterpoints]

Counterpoints,
As an aside, can you list the 10 mental symptoms you have found in your sample of 60% of the respondents?

Hi Steve,
Sure.  As I said earlier, these are "very approximate" figures.  I made a post about this earlier, where I listed group 1, 2, 3 symptoms.  It's based on what I've seen in this thread, what has been sent to me through private message, what I've seen in the questionnaire responses, what I've read in papers, etc.  I don't have time to find the post right now, but I can repost it.  It was a list I made when I was about to consult with a neurologist researcher.  At the time, I welcomed additions and comments, and I still do.

[Guthrie]

ALPHA 20 C:
I've been away for a while. I know it is VERY EXPENSIVE, that's why I've stopped taking it.

Coreman--did the alpha 20c continue to be effective for POIS while you were taking it?  Did you repeat the experience of taking it in the middle of POIS and having your brain fog disappear within 10 minutes?


CCconfucius, you had said that you also purchased alpha20c:

I got sunrider product alpha 20c what a reap of but i need to find out whether it works or not. the ingredients according to box are;
nandina flower(chinese white flower), paris polyphylia(paris herb)root, scutellaria baicalensis (scutellaria herb)root; dandelion root; imperata root

Have you had a chance to test it yet?

[underwater]

Counterpoints--
It is very interesting that we can have such different "takes" on the same post.
I certainly did not intend to give the impression that one view was sacrosanct and immune from criticism. My intentions all along were to respond to the "give and take" of dialogue in a positive, two sided manner which has been one of my interests for many years. My apologies. I might have been verbose, but I enjoyed writing it. I just never read into  that post the idea of name change. I enjoyed the stylistic introduction, recognized a spontaneous utterance (felt the anguish that only spontaneity can generate)and read down to get to the main idea/s. The contributor is always painfully honest and revealing.

[SteveD]

Counterpoints,
As an aside, can you list the 10 mental symptoms you have found in your sample of 60% of the respondents?

Hi Steve,
Sure.  As I said earlier, these are "very approximate" figures.  I made a post about this earlier, where I listed group 1, 2, 3 symptoms.  It's based on what I've seen in this thread, what has been sent to me through private message, what I've seen in the questionnaire responses, what I've read in papers, etc.  I don't have time to find the post right now, but I can repost it.  It was a list I made when I was about to consult with a neurologist researcher.  At the time, I welcomed additions and comments, and I still do.

I'd be grateful for the repost.

[demografx]

UPDATE: MY ENDOCRINOLOGIST AND I PARTNERING A CURE FOR POIS

Visited with my University endo + did more bloodwork today.
Interestingly, Sidney Poitier, the famous actor, author, Ambassador and corporate chieftain, was visiting in the same office. I was told that many celebrities hang out here.

Quick recap, today's visit was after initial visit plus bloodwork and much email correspondence (email alone being unusual for extensive doctor/patient correspondence in my experience). Incredibly high prolactin levels plus low testosterone levels were found, leading to his recommended MRI of the brain, which found no major pathology.

If you'll notice above, I use the word "partnering". I firmly believe that after the visits, the labwork, the brain MRI and the emails, that the doctor and I have established a very good, mutually respectful bond. He even welcomed data from my biophysics friend about prolactin that I emailed to him. No ego problem here.

And Counterpoints is right in saying that I might not have gotten this far without Dr. Waldinger's POIS paper; in fact it was on his desk today. And as I mentioned in my previous post, the very existence of this POIS Forum added much medical credibility. Even to the point of almost getting our group here funded as part of a major study. The first round was rejected, but it's still possible. The main thing is that the doctor stuck his neck out for me and this forum. He took a chance and introduced me to the key grant/funding rainmaker and Chief Scientist of their illness-studies at the university. The excitement is that he is firmly committed to researching and curing my POIS! Something that I never experienced in my 30+ years of this despicable malady. Despicable? Sorry, emotions come creeping in when I think of how much of my life - and yours - has been wasted by POIS.

Frankly, in this process here at the University, I became afraid of tumors, dangerous drugs, horrendous procedures, including surgery, and more that seemed to be part of the path here. Thankfully, none of that is true so far.

The doctor's POIS theory, which he wants to test, yet is perfectly willing to abandon in favor of evidence elsewhere, is that my low testosterone may be creating abnormally high prolactin levels.

I protested: I tried testosterone for many, many months; it helped my libido (too much?) but did nothing for my POIS. His reply was that I tried DEPOtestosterone, which is erratic. Today, he prescribed 2 Androderm daily testosterone patches, which he said should stabilize my testosterone and, hopefully, bring down my prolactin. And hopefully treat POIS successfully. If not, onward and forward.........

I went to the lab after the meeting to test prolactin and testosterone again, and I have a lab visit scheduled for March for the same, plus Cortisol testing.

Anyway, that's it. I wanted to share that with you all. Thanks.

[OmBass]

Hi all,
I'd like to share my input and experience here.

First off, I have had a couple bouts with POIS. Cool to have found the forum here. And honestly, I think I understand the mechanism behind the illness. Basically it all comes down to this: ADRENAL EXHAUSTION.

I have been suffering from varying degrees of adrenal problems for many years. I have made great improvements. There was a time when I couldn't have an orgasm without becoming extremely depressed for minimum 24hrs afterwards. This was a time when I was going through a great amount of stress, and my body's energy reserves were very low. This is also a time when I was drinking a lot of coffee to balance the energy lows. And this my friends, I believe is truly the source of our problems. Let me explain:

First off, I overcame that bout of POIS through rest (8+ hours a night if possible), cutting out coffee and all stimulants, and eliminating as much stress in my life as possible.

I was just in Thailand and met a wonderful girl there. We spent almost a month together. We had sex daily, sometimes more than once a day. And I never got and POIS. However, I did notice that if i really pushed it. Like 3x in one day, i could get a bit of POIS. But only for half a day or so. So essentially, I was having sex with no problems and no POIS. Sure, I would have liked to been boinking 5x a day like a porno stud, but considering i could barely have sex months prior, I was having the time of my life.

Now, fast forward 2 months. The only thing I have changed in 2 months is... I have started drinking COFFEE. And a decent amount of it. Before that it was green tea in the morning and that was it for caffeine. Started with one (strong) double latte in the morning, and then upped it to one in the afternoon too. This continued for a couple of months. And now I am finding myself just starting to be sexually active with a new GF. And guess what? The WORST case of POIS ever!! Horrible depression, anxiety, lethargy, irritability for 2 days now since orgasm. Horrendously debilitating, to the point where I cant even do my job. I have actually been pretty freaked out about it, as I just feel AWFUL. 

And keep this in mind: The ONLY thing i have changed since my previous POIS-free sexual romps is the addition of a lot of coffee. And this affects the dopamine system, as well as the adrenals, both of which I believe are major factor in all this POIS stuff. LIke it or dont, ejaculation expends energy. Chi, qi, lifeforce, dopamine, whatever you'd like to call it. And so does coffee, stimilants, etc. They all are affecting the same reserves. My acupuncturist refers to adrenals as a sorta shock absorbers. They can take a bit, but only so much. They can take an orgasm or two, but that on top of too much coffee, amphetamines, stress, etc=POIS.

Remember: POIS is not normal! the majority of people have orgasms without consequence. So what is wrong? Our bodies are overworked, and overtaxed. And its not purely coffee alone. But coffee is a MAJOR stimulant which you may be underestimating in regards to its effects on your body. Its very glorified and praised by many, and I more than understand the lure and draw and all out yumminess and satisfaction that is a proper cup of coffee. I was just drawn into its seductive web myself after over a year of being off of it. However, the cost is just too great! What would you rather have? Coffee or sex? For me the choice is clear

The all out HORRIBLE POIS symptoms I have been experiencing for the last 48 hours prompted me to trace back my steps, be scientific about it and do some research, which led me to this forum. I am no Dr, but I am very experienced with adrenal exhaustion/fatigue, and its symptoms and treatment. And the one thing I can say for certain is this:

THE DRUGS APPROACH IS THE WRONG ONE AND WILL JUST MAKE YOU WORSE IN THE LONG RUN!!!!!!

Its not about finding the "right" drug. its about getting off the stimulants in particular, and just letting your body heal and function normally. Any sort of detox would be wonderful for your system, and I would recommend it heartily. The reason why you get the POIS is that your bodies energy/dopamine reserves are essentially at zero due to overuse of stimulants! Caffiene and amphetamines = NOT GOOD and will just make you much worse off.

Here's a great article and overview for Adrenal Fatigue:

newbielink:http://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenal_fatigue.asp [nonactive]

Or Just google it. Understanding it is the key to getting better!

There's also the best book I've seen about called "Adrenal Fatigue: The 21st Century Stress Syndrome." Its available at Amazon or adrenalfatigue.org

Hope this helps! I for one am absolutely certain that the elimination of coffee (cut it out completely today), the addition of more sleep, along with just treating my body right and following the basic principles for adrenal health and recovery, will bring about my own recovery and restoration of well being. I speak from experience! I was there, and was able to reverse all progress and end up worse than i started by just adding a bunch of coffee to my life.

COFFEE=BAD!!! Cut it out along with the stimulants, and get on the rd to feeling better :-) Yes, I know, you're tired. But its because your whole system REALLY is tired. Your body is freaking EXHAUSTED, and all the coffee is just making it worse! You dont have to live with this! You can get better! Just give your body a break. Read up on all this and take it to heart. The more drugs approach is just burying you deeper...

Good luck and a speedy recovery to everyone!

[demografx]

But I just renewed my subscription to Drugs 'R' Us....